Hidden in plain sight: Why I believe this about the Revelation

[Spiritual Israelite]

1 John 3:8 The one who practices sin is of the devil, because the devil has been sinning from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was revealed: to destroy the works of the devil.

The wages of sin is death. The works of the devil is sin and it leads to death:

Hebrews 2:14 Therefore, since the children share in flesh and blood, he likewise shared in their humanity, so that through death he could destroy the one who holds the power of death (that is, the devil),

Christ's death and resurrection destroyed the power of the devil - forever and ever.

Your argument conflates Satan's ability to deceive the nations with his works of sin, and the death which results from sin.

Revelation 20:3 talks only about his deception of the nations when it speaks about him being bound and unable to deceive the nations. It's not talking about his power of death or the works that John is talking about and linking to sin:

1 John 3:8 The one who practices sin is of the devil, because the devil has been sinning from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was revealed: to destroy the works of the devil.

If it was talking about his deception of the nations and his being bound, then Christ's undoing of the works of Satan (sin and death) would be undone by Satan being released again.

Being turned from darkness to light is related to Satan's deception of the nations and the fact that the gospel will open the eyes of those who will hear, repent and believe. Some do, some don't - and Satan's deception of the nations continues till today.

Even were he bound in this regard as you say, it would mean that Christ's undoing of his works would be undone when he is released again.

But we clearly don't see it the same way. You conflate the two, I don't. So we'll just keep talking past one another.

Thanks for sharing your view. It seems impossible for us to have a good discussion about this because, like you said, we'll just keep talking past each other since we don't even fully understand what the other believes. That's fine. There's just not likely anything we can do about that.

 

[Zao is life]

Thanks for sharing your view. It seems impossible for us to have a good discussion about this because, like you said, we'll just keep talking past each other since we don't even fully understand what the other believes. That's fine. There's just not likely anything we can do about that.

My mind is

and your mind is

Subject

LOL.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

What you are not factoring is that he does not stay bound all the way up unto being cast into the LOF.

I didn't say that he will be. Where are you getting that from what I said? I think we may need to follow Zao is life's lead here and realize that when we try to talk about Satan's binding we just talk past each other. You clearly do not understand what I believe, so there's no point in trying to discuss it any further. But, I'll keep reading the rest of this post and we'll see if whatever you said can change my mind about whether we should keep talking about this or agree to disagree on it like Zao is life and I have done.

he is loosed a little season first.

Of course. Where did I say otherwise? I have very little interest in talking about this with you if you're just going to misrepresent what I believe. But, let's see if you continue doing that in the rest of your post.

The point being, if everything you brought up applies to his binding, what does all of that mean when he is no longer bound? It has to mean the opposite of all those things you said it means when he is bound. Otherwise, there is zero difference between being bound and being loosed.

Right.

Thus his binding is meaningless if all the things you brought are also applicable in the same manner when he is loosed.

Agree.

Matthew 12:28 But if I cast out devils by the Spirit of God, then the kingdom of God is come unto you. 29 Or else how can one enter into a strong man's house, and spoil his goods, except he first bind the strong man? and then he will spoil his house.

What does that mean when he is loosed after the thousand years? Make it clear to us what it means once he is loosed.

It means that it will be much more difficult, if not impossible, to cast out demons at that point.

1 John 3:8 He that committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil.

If that is what his thousand year binding accomplishes, what does it then mean when he is loosed after the thousand years? Make it clear to us what it means once he is loosed.

You're awfully demanding here, but I'll tell you, anyway. BTW, I'm wondering why you didn't give your understanding of what "the works of the devil" are? Can you do that?

In order to explain what that means when he is loosed, we have to know what it means for Him to destroy the works of the devil. Which means we have determine what "the works of the devil" are.

This passage gives some insight into that...

Hebrews 2:14 Forasmuch then as the children are partakers of flesh and blood, he also himself likewise took part of the same; that through death he might destroy him that had the power of death, that is, the devil; 15 And deliver them who through fear of death were all their lifetime subject to bondage.

In Old Testament times, the devil "had the power of death". He was able to use that power to keep people in "bondage" to the "fear of death". This was especially true of the the Gentiles who, for the most part had "no hope" and were "without God in the world" in those times (Ephesians 2:11-12). But, as Paul said, "But now in Christ Jesus ye who sometimes were far off are made nigh by the blood of Christ." (Eph 2:13).

By way of His death, Jesus took the power of death away from Satan. It seems that Premills don't think about the significance of that. After that, He then held "the keys of hell and of death" (Rev 1:18). Many after that have been set free from the fear of death that gave them no hope of anything after death by the hope of eternal life that the blood of Christ provides. Satan needed to be bound and have the power of death taken away from him in order for this to happen.

So, what about when Satan is loosed then? It means, for a short time, he is allowed to again have the power of death and go into the world and largely silence the preaching of the gospel by way of persecuting believers and also drowning out the gospel message by many different false religions, cults, philosophies, etc.

I believe Satan's little season after he is loosed correlates with what Jesus said in Matthew 24:9-13 in terms of a time when persecution, apostasy, deception and wickedness would be significantly increased. Paul talked about that same time period in 2 Thessalonians 2:3-12 where he also talked about a time of increased apostasy, deception and wickedness that would all be "after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders" (2 Thess 2:9).

Hebrews 2:14 Forasmuch then as the children are partakers of flesh and blood, he also himself likewise took part of the same; that through death he might destroy him that had the power of death, that is, the devil; 15 And deliver them who through fear of death were all their lifetime subject to bondage.

If that is what his thousand year binding accomplishes, what does it then mean when he is loosed after the thousand years? Make it clear to us what it means once he is loosed.

I addressed that one above since I believe it helps explain what 1 John 3:8 is about in terms of what the "works of the devil" were that are destroyed because of what Jesus made possible by His death.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

My mind is

and your mind is

Subject

LOL.

LOL. Closed to each other on this particular topic, anyway. Not other topics. I assume. LOL.

 

[Zao is life]

LOL. Closed to each other on this particular topic, anyway. Not other topics. I assume. LOL.

No we agree on other things and say the the same things when arguing against JW's when they attempt to post JW doctrine surreptitiously in other boards, etc.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

No we agree on other things and say the the same things when arguing against JW's when they attempt to post JW doctrine surreptitiously in other boards, etc.

Right. And we agree that Jesus died and rose again and is our Lord and Savior. You know, minor things like that.

And we agree on things like that the all Israel that is saved and will be saved is the spiritual Israel of God as well. You are one of the few here who agrees with my interpretation of Romans 11. Which also means I'm one of the few who agrees with your interpretation of it. I appreciate that we agree on that. And we're both post-trib. I think. I assume you are. I can't imagine that you're pre-trib. No chance of that. And we probably agree on other things that we don't even realize that we agree on as well.

 

[Zao is life]

Right. And we agree that Jesus died and rose again and is our Lord and Savior. You know, minor things like that.

And we agree on things like that the all Israel that is saved and will be saved is the spiritual Israel of God as well. You are one of the few here who agrees with my interpretation of Romans 11. Which also means I'm one of the few who agrees with your interpretation of it. I appreciate that we agree on that. And we're both post-trib. I think. I assume you are. I can't imagine that you're pre-trib. No chance of that. And we probably agree on other things that we don't even realize that we agree on as well.

I'm Post-Trib. And like the guy who you call "my buddy @Davidpt " (who does not agree with me on a good few things, and can become just as angry at my refusal to budge on certain things), I don't fit all that neatly into the Premil category, either.

And as you can see from my view of Romans 11 I'm obviously not a "let's agree to DISPENSE with the true Israel of God in favor of a non-elect who have been broken off" SENSATIONALIST (a Dispensationalist), either.

So I don't fit into any box. I'm not a box-ist. I'm a scriptural -ist.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

I'm Post-Trib. And like the guy who you call "my buddy @Davidpt " (who does not agree with me on a good few things, and can become just as angry at my refusal to budge on certain things), I don't fit all that neatly into the Premil category, either.

That was not meant to be derogatory or anything like that. It was just a riff on the fact that you guys have kind of teamed together to argue against my view on a couple things before. That's all. I know you don't agree with him on everything or even close to everything. If you called WPM my buddy, I wouldn't be offended by that. Our views are very close on end times doctrine, but not so much on soteriology (salvation). I think my view aligns much more closely with yours on that topic as you are not a Calvinist just as I am not. So, in relation to that topic, we are buddies.

And as you can see from my view of Romans 11 I'm obviously not a "let's agree to DISPENSE with the true Israel of God in favor of a non-elect who have been broken off" SENSATIONALIST (a Dispensationalist), either.

Should we call them dispensensationalists?

So I don't fit into any box. I'm not a box-ist. I'm a scriptural -ist.

Yeah, that's fine with me. We should be like the Bereans and study the scriptures for ourselves, of course (Acts 17:10-11).

 

[Zao is life]

That was not meant to be derogatory or anything like that. It was just a riff on the fact that you guys have kind of teamed together to argue against my view on a couple things before. That's all. I know you don't agree with him on everything or even close to everything. If you called WPM my buddy, I wouldn't be offended by that. Our views are very close on end times doctrine, but not so much on soteriology (salvation). I think my view aligns much more closely with yours on that topic as you are not a Calvinist just as I am not. So, in relation to that topic, we are buddies.


Should we call them dispensensationalists?


Yeah, that's fine with me. We should be like the Bereans and study the scriptures for ourselves, of course (Acts 17:10-11).

LOL. I didn't mind you calling David pt my buddy. But he has given me the impression once or twice that he might mind (maybe not). I don't mind if he minds - but since it's not true that we adhere to the same beliefs in every respect, it's better not to. I guess.

 

[rebuilder 454]

Now, John writes a great deal about the rise of a beast from the abyss who goes to war against the saints in the days preceding Christ's judgment of the beast and his false prophet, saying things like:

"If anyone worships the beast and his image, and receives a mark in his forehead or in his hand, he also will drink of the wine of the anger of God, having been mixed undiluted in the cup of His wrath. And he will be tormented by fire and brimstone before the holy angels, and in the presence of the Lamb. And the smoke of their torment goes up forever and ever. And they have no rest day or night, those who worship the beast and its image, and whoever receives the mark of its name." -– Revelation 14:9-11.

"And all dwelling on the earth will worship it, those whose names have not been written in the Book of Life of the Lamb slain, from the foundation of the world." -– Revelation 13:8.

(And if anyone was not found having been written in the Book of Life, he was cast into the Lake of Fire.) -- Revelation 20:15.

Here is the endurance of the saints. Here are the ones who keep the commandments of God and the faith of Jesus. -- Revelation 14:9-12.

(But the fearful, and the unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, will have their part in the Lake burning with fire and brimstone, which is the second death.) -- Revelation 21:8.

"And the beast was taken, and with him the false prophet that wrought miracles before him, with which he deceived them that had received the mark of the beast, and them that worshiped his image. These both were cast alive [záō] into the lake of fire burning with brimstone." -– Revelation 19:20. (Záō = “living | alive”).

"And the rest [loipoí] were slain [apokteínō] with the sword of him that sat upon the horse, which sword proceeded out of his mouth: and all the fowls were filled with their flesh". -- Revelation 19:21. (apokteínō means to put to death, to kill, to slay, to destroy).

"And I saw thrones, and they sat on them, and judgment was given to them. And I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded for the witness of Jesus and for the Word of God, and who had not worshiped the beast nor his image, nor had received his mark on their foreheads, nor in their hands. And they were alive [záō] and reigned with Christ a thousand years." -– Revelation 20:4.

"But the rest [loipoí] of the dead did not live again [anazáō] until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection of the body [anástasis]. Blessed and holy is he who has part in the first resurrection. The second death has no authority over these, but they will be priests of God and of Christ, and will reign with Him a thousand years." (Revelation 20:5).

---------------------
THEME: "It is Done!"​

Jesus exclaims, "It is Done!" twice in the Revelation:

The first time is when the seventh and final vial of God's wrath is poured out (Revelation 16:15-17). The second time is when He says,

"And He sitting on the throne said, Behold, I make all things new. And He said to me, Write, for these words are true and faithful. And He said to me,

--- It is done ---.

I am the Alpha and Omega, the Beginning and the End. To him who thirsts I will give of the fountain of the water of life freely. HE WHO OVERCOMES will inherit all things, and I will be his God, and he will be My son.

But the fearful, and the unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, will have their part in the Lake burning with fire and brimstone, which is the second death." (Revelation 21:5-8)

Conclusions:

1. The two themes: The promises to those who overcome, and "It is done!",

.. are telling us who the Lord is speaking to in terms of which generation this Revelation is ULTIMATELY speaking to.

2. The theme "Blessed is the one who watches and keeps his garments, lest he walk naked and they see his shame." links the lukewarm church to that (above) generation - the churches that will be in existence at the time of the Lord's return. But there will be exceptions expressed by the two (of the seven) churches who were only commended by the Lord for their faithfulness.
​

3. Every event that is recorded in-between the Lord's last direct word to His seven churches and the next time He talks directly to His churches when He exclaims, "Behold, I am coming as a thief. Blessed is the one who watches and keeps his garments, lest he walk naked and they see his shame." (Revelation 16:15) is talking about what will be taking place on this earth during the 42 month reign of the dragon's beast, his false prophet, and their ten kings.

Good Point, yes, everyone who refuses to mark dies in the great tribulation, as is depicted.
You're making a case for the pre-tribulation rapture.
As you pointed out, there's no believers that make it through the tribulation. Jesus declared it so vividly.

 

[rebuilder 454]

What you are not factoring is that he does not stay bound all the way up unto being cast into the LOF. he is loosed a little season first. The point being, if everything you brought up applies to his binding, what does all of that mean when he is no longer bound? It has to mean the opposite of all those things you said it means when he is bound. Otherwise, there is zero difference between being bound and being loosed. Thus his binding is meaningless if all the things you brought are also applicable in the same manner when he is loosed.

Matthew 12:28 But if I cast out devils by the Spirit of God, then the kingdom of God is come unto you. 29 Or else how can one enter into a strong man's house, and spoil his goods, except he first bind the strong man? and then he will spoil his house.

What does that mean when he is loosed after the thousand years? Make it clear to us what it means once he is loosed.

1 John 3:8 He that committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil.

If that is what his thousand year binding accomplishes, what does it then mean when he is loosed after the thousand years? Make it clear to us what it means once he is loosed.

Hebrews 2:14 Forasmuch then as the children are partakers of flesh and blood, he also himself likewise took part of the same; that through death he might destroy him that had the power of death, that is, the devil; 15 And deliver them who through fear of death were all their lifetime subject to bondage.

If that is what his thousand year binding accomplishes, what does it then mean when he is loosed after the thousand years? Make it clear to us what it means once he is loosed.

You are attempting to reason with amil doctrine.
That is a completely different bible than yours.

 

[Zao is life]

You're making a case for the pre-tribulation rapture.

There's no rapture of any group of saints before the tribulation of the saints at the hand of the beast mentioned in scripture and in my post.

 

[rebuilder 454]

There's no rapture of any group of saints before the tribulation of the saints at the hand of the beast mentioned in scripture and in my post.

Is there a verse pointing to a postrib rapture?
Chapter and verse?

 

[Zao is life]

Is there a verse pointing to a postrib rapture?
Chapter and verse?

I'll give all the chapters and verses to you - and then you can quote all verses (chapters and verse) that talk about a "per-tribulation rapture of the saints":

Note: When it comes to the Bible and Christian doctrine, there are three categories of Christians:

(a) Those who adhere to a belief in the authority of biblical scripture above the doctrines and theologies of men; and

(b) Those who do not.

(c) Those who claim to believe in the authority of biblical scripture above all doctrines and theologies of men, and yet fail the test when confronted with a choice between their own doctrines and theologies and what biblical scripture actually teaches.

Your response to this post will show which of the above three categories you fall into, because when the New Testament talks about "tribulation:, "the tribulation", or "great tribulation", the following is what it's ALWAYS talking about:-

TRIBULATION OF APOSTLES OR CHRISTIANS:-​

Matthew 13:21 (Parallel: Mark 4:17); Matthew 24:9 & 29 (Parallel Mark 13:24); John 16:33; Acts 11:19; Acts 14:22; Acts 20:23; Romans 5:3; Romans 8:35; Romans 12:12; 2 Corinthians 1:4, 6 & 8; 2 Corinthians 2:4; 2 Corinthians 4:8; 2 Corinthians 4:17; 2 Corinthians 6:4; 2 Corinthians 7:4-5; 2 Corinthians 8:2; Ephesians 3:13; Philippians 1:16; Philippians 4:14; Colossians 1:24; 1 Thessalonians 1:6; 1 Thessalonians 3:3-4 & 7; 2 Thessalonians 1:4, 6-7; 2 Timothy 1:8; 2 Timothy 3:11; 2 Timothy 4:5; Hebrews 10:32-33; 1 Peter 5:9; Revelation 1:9; Revelation 2:9-10, 22; Revelation 7:14.

GREAT TRIBULATION
[Greek: mégas thlîpsis]​

Mentioned only three times in the New Testament:-

Second mention: "Behold, I will cast her (Jezebel) into a bed, and them (those Christians) that commit adultery with her into mégas thlîpsis (great tribulation), except they repent of their deeds." -- Revelation 2:21

Third mention: "After these things I looked, and lo, a great multitude, which no man could number, out of all nations and kindreds and people and tongues, stood before the throne and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, with palms in their hands. And they cried with a loud voice, saying, Salvation to our God sitting on the throne, and to the Lamb.

And one of the elders answered, saying to me, Who are these who are arrayed in white robes, and from where do they come? And I said to him, Sir, you know. And he said to me, These are the ones who came out of great tribulation [mégas thlîpsis] and have washed their robes, and have whitened them in the blood of the Lamb.

Therefore they are before the throne of God, and they serve Him day and night in His temple. And He sitting on the throne will dwell among them. They will not hunger any more, nor thirst any more, nor will the sun light on them, nor any heat. For the Lamb who is in the midst of the throne will feed them and will lead them to the fountains of living waters. And God will wipe away all tears from their eyes." -- Revelation 7:9-10, 13-15.

First mention: "For then shall be great tribulation [megas thlipsis], such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be. And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened." -- Matthew 24:21-22

None of the above Christians got raptured or are said to get raptured before the tribulation they endured or will endure.

****************************​

* Luke 21:23 uses the word wrath [orgḗ] to describe what was to come upon the inhabitants of Jerusalem (not the word tribulation):

"But woe to those who are with child, and to those suckling in those days! For there shall be great distress [anánkē] in the land and wrath [orgḗ] on this people."

* The Revelation uses the words orge and thumos (wrath) to describe what is to come upon the nations at the hand of an angry God (not the word "tribulation").

****************************​

Persecution of Jesus: John 5:16

Persecution of Christians: Matthew 5:10-12; John 15:20; Acts 22:4; Acts 26:11; 1 Corinthians 4:12; 1 Corinthians 15:9; 2 Corinthians 4:9; Galatians 1:13 & 23; Galatians 4:29; Galatians 5:11.

Persecution of "the woman" who gave birth to the Messiah: Revelation 12:13.

There are only two verses in the New Testament referring to tribulation experienced by non-Christians:-

1. Of all who do evil: Romans 2:9.
2. Of the world as repayment for bringing tribulation upon the saints: 2 Thessalonians 1:6.

Now it's your turn - provide the chapter and verse in scripture that talks about a per-tribulation rapture of the saints (at least ONE).

 

[rebuilder 454]

I'll give all the chapters and verses to you - and then you can quote all verses (chapters and verse) that talk about a "per-tribulation rapture of the saints":

Note: When it comes to the Bible and Christian doctrine, there are three categories of Christians:

(a) Those who adhere to a belief in the authority of biblical scripture above the doctrines and theologies of men; and

(b) Those who do not.

(c) Those who claim to believe in the authority of biblical scripture above all doctrines and theologies of men, and yet fail the test when confronted with a choice between their own doctrines and theologies and what biblical scripture actually teaches.

Your response to this post will show which of the above three categories you fall into, because when the New Testament talks about "tribulation:, "the tribulation", or "great tribulation", the following is what it's ALWAYS talking about:-

TRIBULATION OF APOSTLES OR CHRISTIANS:-​

Matthew 13:21 (Parallel: Mark 4:17); Matthew 24:9 & 29 (Parallel Mark 13:24); John 16:33; Acts 11:19; Acts 14:22; Acts 20:23; Romans 5:3; Romans 8:35; Romans 12:12; 2 Corinthians 1:4, 6 & 8; 2 Corinthians 2:4; 2 Corinthians 4:8; 2 Corinthians 4:17; 2 Corinthians 6:4; 2 Corinthians 7:4-5; 2 Corinthians 8:2; Ephesians 3:13; Philippians 1:16; Philippians 4:14; Colossians 1:24; 1 Thessalonians 1:6; 1 Thessalonians 3:3-4 & 7; 2 Thessalonians 1:4, 6-7; 2 Timothy 1:8; 2 Timothy 3:11; 2 Timothy 4:5; Hebrews 10:32-33; 1 Peter 5:9; Revelation 1:9; Revelation 2:9-10, 22; Revelation 7:14.

GREAT TRIBULATION
[Greek: mégas thlîpsis]​

Mentioned only three times in the New Testament:-

Second mention: "Behold, I will cast her (Jezebel) into a bed, and them (those Christians) that commit adultery with her into mégas thlîpsis (great tribulation), except they repent of their deeds." -- Revelation 2:21

Third mention: "After these things I looked, and lo, a great multitude, which no man could number, out of all nations and kindreds and people and tongues, stood before the throne and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, with palms in their hands. And they cried with a loud voice, saying, Salvation to our God sitting on the throne, and to the Lamb.

And one of the elders answered, saying to me, Who are these who are arrayed in white robes, and from where do they come? And I said to him, Sir, you know. And he said to me, These are the ones who came out of great tribulation [mégas thlîpsis] and have washed their robes, and have whitened them in the blood of the Lamb.

Therefore they are before the throne of God, and they serve Him day and night in His temple. And He sitting on the throne will dwell among them. They will not hunger any more, nor thirst any more, nor will the sun light on them, nor any heat. For the Lamb who is in the midst of the throne will feed them and will lead them to the fountains of living waters. And God will wipe away all tears from their eyes." -- Revelation 7:9-10, 13-15.

First mention: "For then shall be great tribulation [megas thlipsis], such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be. And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened." -- Matthew 24:21-22

****************************​

* Luke 21:23 uses the word wrath [orgḗ] to describe what was to come upon the inhabitants of Jerusalem (not the word tribulation):

"But woe to those who are with child, and to those suckling in those days! For there shall be great distress [anánkē] in the land and wrath [orgḗ] on this people."

* The Revelation uses the words orge and thumos (wrath) to describe what is to come upon the nations at the hand of an angry God (not the word "tribulation").

****************************​

Persecution of Jesus: John 5:16

Persecution of Christians: Matthew 5:10-12; John 15:20; Acts 22:4; Acts 26:11; 1 Corinthians 4:12; 1 Corinthians 15:9; 2 Corinthians 4:9; Galatians 1:13 & 23; Galatians 4:29; Galatians 5:11.

Persecution of "the woman" who gave birth to the Messiah: Revelation 12:13.

There are only two verses in the New Testament referring to tribulation experienced by non-Christians:-

1. Of all who do evil: Romans 2:9.
2. Of the world as repayment for bringing tribulation upon the saints: 2 Thessalonians 1:6.

Now it's your turn - provide the chapter and verse in scripture that talks about a per-tribulation rapture of the saints (at least ONE).

I 100% agree with the fact we are PROMISED trib.
But if you can not differentiate between what we see in daily life and what happens at the 4 horsemen riders,then join SI in the amil doctrine.
They definately have no clue on the difference.

Establishing the difference between the trib we experience and the great trib should not be any debate at all.
neither is it my challenge.
My challenge to you is to proved a postrib RAPTURE argument.
So we both agree that we are promised tribulation.

 

[Zao is life]

I 100% agree with the fact we are PROMISED trib.
But if you can not differentiate between what we see in daily life and what happens at the 4 horsemen riders,then join SI in the amil doctrine.
They definately have no clue on the difference.

Establishing the difference between the trib we experience and the great trib should not be any debate at all.
neither is it my challenge.
My challenge to you is to proved a postrib RAPTURE argument.
So we both agree that we are promised tribulation.

You cannot produce a PRE-TRIB rapture argument. I challenged you to produce chapter and verse but you have not done so, though I proved to you from scripture that "tribulation", "the tribulation" and "great tribulation" refers to something the saints endure at the hand of unbelievers and of the authorities of this world, and at the hand of the beast and false prophet, who will war against them and overcome them (Revelation 13:7).

So by your response and side-stepping of the challenge, you have already begun to prove a second time that you fall into the third category of Christians who claim to uphold the authority of scripture over all the doctrines and theologies of men, but fail to do so when their own doctrines are challenged by scripture.

* Jesus said that at the end of the age the faithful saints will be delivered up to tribulation and killed, having become hated of all nations for His name's sake, and that the unfaithful will fall away and betray the faithful (Matthew 24:9-14).
* The elect are present in the world during the great tribulation that Jesus is talking about, because those days will be shortened for the elect's sake (Matthew 24:22).
* The multitude who came out from the great tribulation were not raptured before they came out from it (Revelation 7).
* The two witnesses did not rise from the dead before they were killed by the beast (Revelation 11).
* The dead in Christ will rise first and those who are still alive will be raptured (caught up), and all of them (the dead in Christ who rose and those who are raptured straight afterward), will meet the Lord in the air (1 Thessalonians 4:15-17).
* The faithful remnant were not delivered from the furnace before they went into it (Daniel 3:19).
* God's people were delivered from Pharaoh the same day his armies were destroyed, and Pharaoh was judged.
* The saints are in the world UNTIL the seventh seal is opened and the seventh trumpet sounds and the seventh bowl of wrath - the last of the plagues - is poured out.
* Jesus interjects in the middle of the 6th bowl of wrath (Armageddon) to warn His flock that He is coming as a thief.
* Jesus said that at the end of the age the faithful saints will be delivered up to tribulation and killed, having become hated of all nations for His name's sake, and that the unfaithful will fall away and betray the faithful (Matthew 24:9-14).
* There are NO scriptures talking about "the tribulation" that are talking about the wrath of God that will come upon the world. They are all talking about what the saints endure and will endure.

You still have done NOTHING to provide chapter and verse of scripture that talks about a pre-tribulation rapture.

 

[rebuilder 454]

You cannot produce a PRE-TRIB rapture argument. I challenged you to produce chapter and verse but you have not done so, though I proved to you from scripture that "tribulation", "the tribulation" and "great tribulation" refers to something the saints endure at the hand of unbelievers and of the authorities of this world, and at the hand of the beast and false prophet, who will war against them and overcome them (Revelation 13:7).

So by your response and side-stepping of the challenge, you have already begun to prove a second time that you fall into the third category of Christians who claim to uphold the authority of scripture over all the doctrines and theologies of men, but fail to do so when their own doctrines are challenged by scripture.

* Jesus said that at the end of the age the faithful saints will be delivered up to tribulation and killed, having become hated of all nations for His name's sake, and that the unfaithful will fall away and betray the faithful (Matthew 24:9-14).
* The elect are present in the world during the great tribulation that Jesus is talking about, because those days will be shortened for the elect's sake (Matthew 24:22).
* The multitude who came out from the great tribulation were not raptured before they came out from it (Revelation 7).
* The two witnesses did not rise from the dead before they were killed by the beast (Revelation 11).
* The dead in Christ will rise first and those who are still alive will be raptured (caught up), and all of them (the dead in Christ who rose and those who are raptured straight afterward), will meet the Lord in the air (1 Thessalonians 4:15-17).
* The faithful remnant were not delivered from the furnace before they went into it (Daniel 3:19).
* God's people were delivered from Pharaoh the same day his armies were destroyed, and Pharaoh was judged.
* The saints are in the world UNTIL the seventh seal is opened and the seventh trumpet sounds and the seventh bowl of wrath - the last of the plagues - is poured out.
* Jesus interjects in the middle of the 6th bowl of wrath (Armageddon) to warn His flock that He is coming as a thief.
* Jesus said that at the end of the age the faithful saints will be delivered up to tribulation and killed, having become hated of all nations for His name's sake, and that the unfaithful will fall away and betray the faithful (Matthew 24:9-14).
* There are NO scriptures talking about "the tribulation" that are talking about the wrath of God that will come upon the world. They are all talking about what the saints endure and will endure.

You still have done NOTHING to provide chapter and verse of scripture that talks about a pre-tribulation rapture.

Maybe take one verse.
Because the pretrib rapture doctrine is vast.

Certain components need to stay in the bible.

We need romans 11 unmolested.
We need the 144k unmolested
We need the AC killing all refusing the mark intact
And others.
Give me one of your power points
( for example; the theory of "one coming")
(Or the Noah analogy of mat 24.)
Don't just side step and deflect with " you have not given verses" silliness

 

[Zao is life]

Maybe take one verse.
Because the pretrib rapture doctrine is vast.

Certain components need to stay in the bible.

We need romans 11 unmolested.
We need the 144k unmolested
We need the AC killing all refusing the mark intact
And others.
Give me one of your power points
( for example; the theory of "one coming")
(Or the Noah analogy of mat 24.)
Don't just side step and deflect with " you have not given verses" silliness

You mean you need Romans 11 molested to make it fit the pre-trib rapture and dispensationalist false doctrines.
You need the 144k molested to fit the pre-trib rapture theory and the dispensationalist false doctrine.

Give me one chapter and verse of scripture that states that tribulation and "the tribulation" and "great tribulation" is not the experience of the saints, but of the world.

And give me one chapter and verse of scripture where it states that the faithful saints who Jesus said will be delivered up to tribulation and killed at the end of the age had been raptured before the tribulation Jesus is talking about.

You keep side-stepping and this game of yours is going on too long because you just ignore the challenge and make broad statements based on nothing.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

You mean you need Romans 11 molested to make it fit the pre-trib rapture and dispensationalist false doctrines.
You need the 144k molested to fit the pre-trib rapture theory and the dispensationalist false doctrine.

Give me one chapter and verse of scripture that states that tribulation and "the tribulation" and "great tribulation" is not the experience of the saints, but of the world.

And give me one chapter and verse of scripture where it states that the faithful saints who Jesus said will be delivered up to tribulation and killed at the end of the age had been raptured before the tribulation Jesus is talking about.

You keep side-stepping and this game of yours is going on too long because you just ignore the challenge and make broad statements based on nothing.

The next coherent argument he makes will be the first one he has ever made. It's pointless trying to reason with someone like him who gets his doctrine from his imagination and not from scripture.

 

[marks]

Also, what happened to us not wanting to make things personal anymore? Can we try to do that? I do not believe any of us (you, me, Davidpt, WPM in particular) try to purposely twist scripture, so let's stop accusing each other of that and try to just speak to and about each other respectfully, eh?

Yay!