HIDDEN IN PLAIN SIGHT: Why I believe this about the timing of the NHNE

[Zao is life]

You have drifted off course of the Holy Scriptures = OT Prophets, Gospel, Apostles

The OP in this thread remains true - which is the reason Amils agree with at least the OP - because they can see it themselves.

But you have drifted off course of the Holy Scriptures = OT Prophets, Gospel, Apostles because you have conflated the Creator who created us with the creature, and therefore you cannot see clearly - because you think being given eternal life and made immortal is the same as becoming THE ONLY SOURCE OF IT.

Zao: Living | being alive.

"In Him (God) we live | are alive [zao], and move, and have our being; For we are also his offspring." (Acts 17:28).

Zoe & Aionios Zoe: Life & Eternal Life. Source: God. He alone possesses life [zoe] in Himself:

"For as the Father hath life [zoe] in himself; so hath he given to the Son to have life [zoe] in himself." (John 5:26).

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The New Testament also calls God the living God (the God who is zao - alive). In biblical scripture the God who is alive (the living God) [zao], who has life [zoe] in Himself, created human beings to live | to be alive [zao], each one in his own created body on the created earth.

God did not create human beings so that Adam or anyone else should "die and then go to heaven when they die".

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When used in reference to God, the word zao is not associated with a human body.

When used in reference to the resurrected Man Jesus Christ, the word zao is associated with His resurrected, glorified human body. He has eternal zoe | life in Himself and He is zao forevermore, possessing His immortality:

-- "I am the First and the Last, and the Living [zao] One,
and I became dead [nekros],and behold, I am alive [zao] to the ages of the ages, Amen.
And I have the keys of hades and of death." (Revelation 1:17-18).​

"He (Christ) alone possesses immortality and lives in unapproachable light, whom no human has ever seen or is able to see. To him be honor and eternal power! Amen." (1 Timothy 6:15-16).

Immortality: To live | be alive [zao] forever (the body never dying or decaying).

When used in reference to created human beings, to be zao is to be alive in a created human body. Scripture NEVER calls a human being whose body has died, "zao". Nor is eternal life in the Greek New Testament ever called "aionios zao". Eternal life is aionos zoe.

The source of immortality is the continual supply of eternal life. The source of the continual supply of eternal life is God. The analogy Jesus gives us of this, is living [zao] water (water that is alive). (John 4:10-11; John 7:38), fountains of living waters (Revelation 7:17), a river of water of life [zoe]. It flows continually and implies that we need to continually drink.

Another analogy Jesus gave of this is of abiding in the Vine:

--- I am the vine, ye are the branches. Abide in me, and I in you, because if a man abide not in me, he is cast forth as a branch, and is withered; and men gather them, and cast them into the fire, and they are burned, and as the branch cannot bear fruit of itself, except it abide in the vine; no more can ye, except ye abide in me. He that abideth in me, and I in him, the same bringeth forth much fruit: for without me ye can do nothing. --- (John 15:4-6, verses rearranged).

The words below do not apply to created human beings:

-- "He (Christ) alone possesses immortality and lives in unapproachable light, whom no human has ever seen or is able to see. To him be honor and eternal power! Amen." -- 1 Timothy 6:15-16

The immortality created human beings experience is dependent on abiding in the Word of God. But the liar says, "You will NOT surely die".

Believing the lie is what caused Adam to follow Satan's "advice".

John 11:21-26

21 Then (Martha) said to Jesus, Lord, if You had been here, my brother would not have died.

22 But I know that even now, whatever You will ask of God, God will give You.

23 Jesus said to her, Your brother shall rise again [anistemi: the resurrection of the body].

24 Martha said to Him, I know that he shall rise again in the resurrection [anastasis: THE Resurrection of the body], at the last day.

25 Jesus said to her,

I am the Resurrection [anastasis] .."

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Compare:

Romans 14:9
--- "For this reason Christ died [apothnesko] and rose again from the dead [anistemi], and lived again [anazao: lived again in a body that is not dead], so that he may be the Lord of both the dead [nekros] and living [zao: those who are alive in a body that is not dead]." ---

In the book of Acts we read that when Festus told king Agrippa about the apostle Paul's case, he said that Paul's Jewish accusers had "brought none accusation of such things as I (Festus) supposed: But had certain questions against him of their own superstition, and of one Jesus, which was dead [thnesko], whom Paul affirmed to be alive. [zao]" (Acts 25:13-14).

In the Revelation we read that Jesus said, "I am he that liveth [zao], and was dead [nekros]; and, behold, I am alive [zao] unto the ages of the ages; Amen; and have the keys of hades and of death [thanatos]." (Revelation 1:18).
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Back to John 11:21-26:

".. I am the Resurrection [anastasis] AND the (eternal) life [ZOE]! He who believes in Me, THOUGH HE DIE (the death of the body), yet he shall live [zao: those who are living | alive in the body, those who are not lifeless, not dead].

(Jesus had said to her, "Your brother shall rise again") [anistemi: the resurrection of the body].

To be alive in the body: 26 And whoever is alive [zao] AND continues to believe in Me shall never die. Do you believe this? .."

Compare the above passage (John 11:21-26) with the following:

John 6:54-58:
"Whoso eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, hath eternal life [zoe]; and I will raise him up [anistemi] at the last day. For my flesh is meat indeed, and my blood is drink indeed. He that eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, dwelleth in me, and I in him. As the living [zao] Father hath sent me, and I live [zao] by the Father: so he that eateth me, even he shall live [zao] by me. This is that bread which came down from heaven: not as your fathers did eat manna, and are dead: he that eateth of this bread shall live [zao] for ever."

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Jesus was announcing the gospel of redemption from death to Martha: The context of John 11:21-26 is:

(i) the death [apothnesko] of the body; and

(ii) the resurrection [anistemi, anastasis] of the body; and

(iii) life/being alive in the body [zao].

It is in this context that Jesus told Martha that her brother (who had just died) will rise again, and that Jesus IS the resurrection (of the body), AND the life (eternal life: zoe), and the one who dies and rises again, is alive in the body [zao], and if that one continues to believe in Jesus, he shall never die (shall be immortal).

The churches' conflation of zoe with zao:

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25 ".. He who believes in Me, though he die, yet he shall be spiritually alive.

26 And whoever is spiritually alive and believes in Me shall be spiritually alive forever and ever. Do you believe this?"

(Though this may come as a shock to many because of the teaching in main-stream Christian churches, the New Testament never talks about created human beings as being spiritually alive).

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The reason you conflate eternal life [zoe] with being alive forever [zao] in a human body that does not die (immortality) is because you have drifted off course of the Holy Scriptures = OT Prophets, Gospel, Apostles because you have conflated the Creator who created us with the creature, and therefore you cannot see clearly - because you think being given eternal life and made immortal is the same as becoming THE ONLY SOURCE OF IT.

 

[David in NJ]

The reason you conflate eternal life [zoe] with being alive forever [zao] in a human body that does not die (immortality) is because you have drifted off course of the Holy Scriptures = OT Prophets, Gospel, Apostles because you have conflated the Creator who created us with the creature, and therefore you cannot see clearly - because you think being given eternal life and made immortal is the same as becoming THE ONLY SOURCE OF IT.

Whenever amil is exposed for the error that it is, you throw false accusations like the one above.

You also fail to answer two simple questions:
a.)When did the 1,000 years begin whereby satan is locked up?
b.) When did it end?

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

If the first resurrection is connected with salvation, and surely it is, the only way Amil can be plausible then, no one can be saved during satan's little season. After all, it is not logical, assuming someone is saved during satan's little season, for them to then live and reign with Christ a thousand years. One can't have part in the first resurrection unless they also live and reign with Christ a thousand years.

Speaking of living and reigning with Christ a thousand years. Consider the following scenario.

John Doe is the last person saved during the millennium. 1 minute after he is saved the thousand years end, satan's little season begin.

And that we are to believe, per a scenario such as this, that that 1 minute equals John Doe having lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years? How can that not be laughable, that '1 minute' is the same thing as having lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years?

So, you apparently believe that the mortals who you believe will somehow survive the return of Christ will all stay alive throughout the supposed future thousand years? You would have to believe that in order to be consistent with your literal interpretation of the passage. And, you apparently believe that no one gets saved at any point during the thousand years since you believe that everyone who reigns with Christ reigns with Him for the full thousand years?

According to your view, no one could get saved during the thousandth year and then reign with Christ. In order to reign with Christ after He returns you believe someone has to be alive for a thousand years.

Also, I guess you believe that those who are alive and remain until the second coming of Christ do not reign with Him during the thousand years since they will not have part in the first resurrection, as you understand it? How do they avoid the second death without having part in the first resurrection?

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

Amil is a based on ambiguity, symbolism and willful ignorance.

It completely fails Scriptural Analysis and Corroboration

It argues against Genesis, which is the Foundation of all truth that followed in the Holy Scriptures.

LOL. Your arguments are WEAK. Trying to relate Adam's age to an imaginary future thousand year earthly kingdom is the WEAKEST argument I've ever seen. You can't be expected to be taken seriously after such a WEAK and DESPERATE argument like that.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

Food for thought. If the “thousand years” is the Church Age, how can Satan be released after it when he is clearly active during it?

Who are you thinking should answer this question? Your straw man? This question is clearly based on the assumption that Satan's binding means he is locked up and completely incapacitated, so it's not a valid question to ask Amills since that is not how we understand his binding.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

No one is saying Amil would say that. The point is that Amil has satan bound while nations are still being deceived. That equals that there is no difference between being bound and being loosed if he can deceive nations while he is bound, and can deceive nations while he is loosed. That would be like arguing that a lion that has fallen into a deep pit, thus is trapped, can do the same things while it is trapped that it can do while it is loose. For example. It can prey upon other animals outside of the trap while it is trapped below. There is no logic in that. A lion can't be in more than one place at a time, and neither can satan.

You do nothing but make straw man arguments. Amills do not say that his binding relates to his general ability to deceive as you understand it. So, we do NOT claim that there is no difference between him being bound and being loosed. Why do you have to resort to misrepresenting Amill? Is it because your arguments for Premill are so weak that you see no other choice but to misrepresent Amill since you can't refute it with scripture?

 

[David in NJ]

Who are you thinking should answer this question? Your straw man? This question is clearly based on the assumption that Satan's binding means he is locked up and completely incapacitated, so it's not a valid question to ask Amills since that is not how we understand his binding.

two simple questions:
a.)When did the 1,000 years begin whereby satan is locked up?
b.) When did it end?

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

I don't see anything you submitted above that makes sense out of this hypothetical scenario I provided. Simply explain how someone can be saved in the last literal minute of the millennium and that this equals them having reigned with Christ a thousand years. In what way did they live and reign with Christ within a literal minute, per this scenario? What did they accomplish during this literal minute? They didn't have the chance to produce any good works during their time of living and reigning with Christ a thousand years. They didn't even have a chance to bring someone else to salvation as well, per this scenario. Keeping in mind, unless I'm misunderstanding you, you already admit that no one is saved during satan's little season. Which apparently means that you must think the day of the Lord begins with satan's little season, rather than at the end of his little season. Assuming his little season is meaning in this age.

2 Peter 3:9 The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.
10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.


This text makes it crystal clear, at least to me anyway, that God continues what He is doing in verse 9 all the way up until the DOTL comes like a thief in the night. I just find it bizarre that the beginning of satan's little season is when the DOTL comes as a thief in the night. As if satan's little season, where he goes out to deceive the nations, is involving 2 Peter 3:10 the entire time.

Who is saying that Satan's little season begins when the day of the Lord comes as a thief in the night? No one. Yet another straw man argument from you. You make no other kind of argument. When will you address what Amills actually believe?

Obviously then, 2 Peter 3:9-10 alone debunks Amil in light of if satan's little season were meaning in this age, that means no one can be saved during his little season the fact it is impossible to live and reign with Christ a thousand years if this era is already in the past once satan's little season begins. And that 2 Peter 3:9-10 proves that one can still be saved all the way up to the DOTL coming as a thief in the night. Amils can't have it both ways. They can't insist that the DOTL does not come until the end of satan's little season, which would mean people can still be saved during satan's little season per this scenario, that according 2 Peter 3:9-10. Which then contradicts that it is impossible to live and reign with Christ a thousand years if that era is in the past when they are presumably saved. And that the first resurrection is connected with salvation. No matter what Amil does here, they are going to contradict something in the process.

What are you talking about here? Just because one Amil says they don't think anyone will be saved during Satan's little season means all Amills believe that? That's not what I believe. That would be like saying that Jesus doesn't reign anymore when the thousand years are over, but scripture says He will reign forever.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

two simple questions:
a.)When did the 1,000 years begin whereby satan is locked up?

The thousand years begins when Christ begins to reign and when Satan is bound, right? Scripture teaches that Christ began to reign after His resurrection.

Matthew 28:18 Then Jesus came to them and said, “All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me.

Ephesians 1:19 and his incomparably great power for us who believe. That power is the same as the mighty strength 20 he exerted when he raised Christ from the dead and seated him at his right hand in the heavenly realms, 21 far above all rule and authority, power and dominion, and every name that is invoked, not only in the present age but also in the one to come. 22 And God placed all things under his feet and appointed him to be head over everything for the church, 23 which is his body, the fullness of him who fills everything in every way.

Do you believe you are in Christ's kingdom right now? I know I am.

Colossians 1:12 and giving joyful thanks to the Father, who has qualified you to share in the inheritance of his holy people in the kingdom of light. 13 For he has rescued us from the dominion of darkness and brought us into the kingdom of the Son he loves, 14 in whom we have redemption, the forgiveness of sins.

As for the binding of Satan, it began at the same time. Here is my understanding of Satan's binding.

I believe all of the following passages relate to Satan's binding and all of them talk about the impact that Jesus and the preaching of His gospel has had on the world for the past almost 2,000 years.

Matthew 12:28 But if I cast out devils by the Spirit of God, then the kingdom of God is come unto you. 29 Or else how can one enter into a strong man's house, and spoil his goods, except he first bind the strong man? and then he will spoil his house.

1 John 3:8 He that committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil.

John 12:31 Now is the judgment of this world: now shall the prince of this world be cast out. 32 And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all men unto me. 33 This he said, signifying what death he should die.

Luke 10:17 And the seventy returned again with joy, saying, Lord, even the devils are subject unto us through thy name. 18 And he said unto them, I beheld Satan as lightning fall from heaven.

Hebrews 2:14 Forasmuch then as the children are partakers of flesh and blood, he also himself likewise took part of the same; that through death he might destroy him that had the power of death, that is, the devil; 15 And deliver them who through fear of death were all their lifetime subject to bondage.

Acts 26:14 And when we were all fallen to the earth, I heard a voice speaking unto me, and saying in the Hebrew tongue, Saul, Saul, why persecutest thou me? it is hard for thee to kick against the pricks. 15 And I said, Who art thou, Lord? And he said, I am Jesus whom thou persecutest. 16 But rise, and stand upon thy feet: for I have appeared unto thee for this purpose, to make thee a minister and a witness both of these things which thou hast seen, and of those things in the which I will appear unto thee; 17 Delivering thee from the people, and from the Gentiles, unto whom now I send thee, 18 To open their eyes, and to turn them from darkness to light, and from the power of Satan unto God, that they may receive forgiveness of sins, and inheritance among them which are sanctified by faith that is in me.
All of the above passages relate to the binding of Satan which has to do with Jesus coming to "destroy the works of the devil" by way of taking "the power of death" away from him which he formerly used to keep the world (especially the Gentiles) in spiritual darkness and in slavery to the fear of death (due to previously having no hope of eternal life). Before He came very few Gentiles in the world had been saved, but after that a multitude has been saved. In that time Paul said that the Gentiles had "no hope" and were "without God in the world" (Ephesians 2:11-12). But, the hope of eternal life was made possible by way of Jesus binding Satan and restraining the power he once held over the world to make it possible for people to be delivered "from the power of Satan unto God".

The binding of Satan has nothing to do with making Satan completely powerless as premils imagine. It has to do with spoiling his house, destroying his works, taking the power of death away from him and keeping him from deceiving almost the entire world awhile keeping them in spiritual darkness as slaves to the fear of death as he was able to do in OT times.

b.) When did it end?

His little season is a time of increased deception when he is no longer restrained from preventing the gospel from being preached. I believe that passages like Matthew 24:9-13 and 2 Thessalonians 2:1-12 which talk about a time of significantly increased persecution, deception, apostasy and wickedness, relate to Satan's little season. There is no one certain thing which indicates that it has ended. In 2 Thessalonians 2:1-12, Paul talked about there being a restraint on wickedness and that restraint would be removed at some point before Christ's return.

2 Thessalonians 2:7 For the mystery of lawlessness is already at work; only He who now restrains will do so until He is taken out of the way. 8 And then the lawless one will be revealed, whom the Lord will consume with the breath of His mouth and destroy with the brightness of His coming. 9 The coming of the lawless one is according to the working of Satan, with all power, signs, and lying wonders, 10 and with all unrighteous deception among those who perish, because they did not receive the love of the truth, that they might be saved.

Paul indicated that the loosing of the restraint on lawlessness (wickedness) would be related to "the working of Satan, with all power, signs, and lying wonders, and with all unrighteous deception among those who perish". So, Paul relates that restraint to a restraining of Satan's power. I think there has been a clear decrease in morality and increase in wickedness in more recent years with the acceptance of LGBTQ+, abortion pills becoming more readily available, increased sexual immorality because of online pornography and other wicked things that the Internet and modern technology has made more accessible than ever before.

2 Timothy 3:1 But mark this: There will be terrible times in the last days. 2 People will be lovers of themselves, lovers of money, boastful, proud, abusive, disobedient to their parents, ungrateful, unholy, 3 without love, unforgiving, slanderous, without self-control, brutal, not lovers of the good, 4 treacherous, rash, conceited, lovers of pleasure rather than lovers of God— 5 having a form of godliness but denying its power. Have nothing to do with such people.

I think there has been an increase in recent times of the kind of behavior that Paul describes above as well as an increase in apostasy. So, I think Satan's little season may very well have already begun.

 

[Davidpt]

Who is saying that Satan's little season begins when the day of the Lord comes as a thief in the night? No one. Yet another straw man argument from you. You make no other kind of argument. When will you address what Amills actually believe?


What are you talking about here? Just because one Amil says they don't think anyone will be saved during Satan's little season means all Amills believe that? That's not what I believe. That would be like saying that Jesus doesn't reign anymore when the thousand years are over, but scripture says He will reign forever.

Obviously, you are not nor am I remotely saying you are. I'm simply trying to show that no matter what Amils do here, they are going to contradict something in the process. If they have the DOTL meaning at the end of satan's little season, this means someone can be saved during his little season according to 2 Peter 3:9-10. Which then contradicts that it is impossible during satan's little season to live and reign with Christ a thousand years, assuming one is presumably saved during his little season. And that one can't divorce the first resurrection from that of salvation, nor can one divorce the first resurrection from that of living and reigning with Christ a thousand years. Therefore, the only way Amil can agree with 2 Peter 3:9-10 and not contradict the first resurrection is by having the DOTL meaning at the beginning of satan's little season. Except it is absurd that satan's little season is involving 2 Peter 3:10 the entire time. Therefore, like I said, no matter what Amil does here, they are going to contradict something in the process.

On a different note, the above aside for a moment. For example. When you and I have discussed Zechariah 14 in the past. Though, I clearly and plainly told you upfront that I don't even remotely believe animal sacrificing resumes when Christ returns. You disregard what I said and then insist if I place anything in Zechariah 14 post the 2nd coming, this means I believe animal sacrificing resumes after Christ returns. Why is ok for you to tell me this means I believe animal sacrificing resumes by placing anything in Zechariah post His 2nd coming. But then find fault with anything I'm doing in regards to your view, from my perpective?

Clearly, from your perspective not from my perspective, for me to place anything in Zechariah 14 post the 2nd coming means that I believe animal sacrificing resumes. For example. Clearly, from my perspective not from your perspective, by comparing to the real world, there appears to be no difference per Amil between satan being bound and being loosed since he still able to do things while he is bound that he can do while he is loosed. Except in your mind, which makes you come across as hypocritical, it is perfectly fine to critique my view based on your perspective on things, but it is not ok for me to critique your view based on my perspective of things.

Apparently, you don't even grasp the art of trying to debunk something. In your mind, when someone, such as me, attempts to debunk your view, this equals me misrepresenting your view when I'm doing no such thing. In your mind, this equals me having Amils saying and believing things that they are not even saying nor believe. Nor do I believe they are saying those things, nor do I believe they believe these things. Though, there could be some Amils that might believe some of these things for all I know, except you are not one of these Amils that would, and I fully realize that. Except you can't speak for every Amil on the planet the same way I can't speak for every Premil on the planet.

I used to think you were different. That you at least understood where someone is coming from and why though you disagree with them. But you are no different than @WPM with your false charges both of you hurl at me constantly. I might not be perfect, but God knows good and well that I'm not doing any of these things you Amils are charging me with. Even chatgpt knows I'm not, either. I can submit anything to it that I have said, and that it manages to interpret what I said correctly every time. Unlike you, it knows the difference between trying to debunk something vs someone insisting someone is saying someone believes things they are not even remotely saying nor believe.

Where you typically apply the latter to me rather than the former. And it's obviously never going to stop on your part since you appear to enjoy doing what you you are doing to me by having me doing things I'm not even doing nor is even coming to my mind. My guess is, even this paragraph here and the paragraph prior to it, as simple as it is to understand what I'm meaning here, has went over your head. But not because you are not intelligent enough to understand it, but because it takes all of the fun out of it for you if you were to apply the former to what I'm doing rather than the latter. Rather than just admitting that this is the ways I go about trying to debunk something.

I do suspect one thing you are doing wrong when you are reading someone's post. Instead of reading it all the way through first then addressing the points made, you apparently start addressing posts as you are reading them in real time rather than reading them all the way through first in order to try and get an idea of where the poster is coming from and why. Which can then lead to taking that post out of context. I don't think it is fair to any poster for someone to be reading their posts and then addressing what they are saying in that part, then continue reading their posts, then addressing what they said in that part, rather than reading the entire post first, then start addressing it after that if they are planning on addressing the post fairly.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

Amil is a based on ambiguity, symbolism and willful ignorance.

It completely fails Scriptural Analysis and Corroboration

It argues against Genesis, which is the Foundation of all truth that followed in the Holy Scriptures.

Amill does not argue against Genesis. That is an absolute lie. You have NOTHING to support Premill, so you have to resort to lying about Amill instead.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

Obviously, you are not nor am I remotely saying you are. I'm simply trying to show that no matter what Amils do here, they are going to contradict something in the process.

That is not true and you have NOTHING to prove otherwise.

If they have the DOTL meaning at the end of satan's little season, this means someone can be saved during his little season according to 2 Peter 3:9-10.

So?

Which then contradicts that it is impossible during satan's little season to live and reign with Christ a thousand years, assuming one is presumably saved during his little season.

Do you think Christ stops reigning during Satan's little season? This is not just an Amil vs. Premil issue that you're talking about here. Do you believe anyone can be saved during Satan's little season? If so, why?

And that one can't divorce the first resurrection from that of salvation, nor can one divorce the first resurrection from that of living and reigning with Christ a thousand years.

You make up your man-made rules that contradict scripture. Do you believe people get saved during the thousand years? If so, do you think that Christ stops reigning and people can no longer be saved during Satan's little season? Scripture does not teach that there will be a future short time during which Christ will not reign or that people cannot be saved, so you need to answer this question just as much as Amills do.

Therefore, the only way Amil can agree with 2 Peter 3:9-10 and not contradict the first resurrection is by having the DOTL meaning at the beginning of satan's little season.

That's nonsense. I don't need to agree to your ridiculous man-made rules that you come up with. You're talking as if Christ stops reigning when the thousand years ends. Is that what you believe?

Except it is absurd that satan's little season is involving 2 Peter 3:10 the entire time. Therefore, like I said, no matter what Amil does here, they are going to contradict something in the process.

Wrong. You are the one who apparently contradicts the fact that Jesus will reign forever. You always try to find holes in Amill while ignoring the many holes in your own doctrine.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

On a different note, the above aside for a moment. For example. When you and I have discussed Zechariah 14 in the past. Though, I clearly and plainly told you upfront that I don't even remotely believe animal sacrificing resumes when Christ returns. You disregard what I said and then insist if I place anything in Zechariah 14 post the 2nd coming, this means I believe animal sacrificing resumes after Christ returns.

No, I don't say that. I have asked you several times to tell me what you think Zechariah 14:16-19 does mean after you told me what you don't believe it means (animal sacrifices being reinstated) and you never do that.

Why is ok for you to tell me this means I believe animal sacrificing resumes by placing anything in Zechariah post His 2nd coming. But then find fault with anything I'm doing in regards to your view, from my perpective?

I'm not telling you that! Why do you just make things up all the time? I accept that you don't believe that, but at the same time you do nothing to show how you do interpret Zechariah 14:16-19.

Clearly, from your perspective not from my perspective, for me to place anything in Zechariah 14 post the 2nd coming means that I believe animal sacrificing resumes.

Wrong. I do not claim that. What is wrong with you? You just make things up over and over again. You never deal with reality. You make one straw man argument after another. It's almost the only kind of argument you ever make.

For example. Clearly, from my perspective not from your perspective, by comparing to the real world, there appears to be no difference per Amil between satan being bound and being loosed since he still able to do things while he is bound that he can do while he is loosed. Except in your mind, which makes you come across as hypocrital, it is perfectly fine to crituqe my view based on your perspective on things, but it is not ok for me to critue your view based on my perspective of things.

You are just making things up to get around the fact that you are misrepresenting Amill over and over again. I do NOT claim that you believe animal sacrifices will be reinstated.

Apparently, you don't even grasp the art of trying to debunk something

I grasp it very well. You just happen to be terrible at debating. You are just horrible at it. At least 90% of your arguments are straw man arguments that don't even address what Amills actually believe. You waste who knows how much time arguing with your straw man.

. In your mind, when someone, such as me, attempts to debunk your view, this equals me misrepsenting your view when I'm doing no such thing.

You do it all the time! Are you kidding me? You do not live in reality.

In your mind, this equals me having Amils saying and believing things that they are not even saying nor believe. Nor do I believe they are saying those things, nor do I believe they believe these things.

I have no idea of what you said here.

Though, there could be some Amils that might believe some of these things for all I know, except you are not one of these Amils that would, and I fully realize that. Except you can't speak for every Amil on the planet the same way I can't speak for every Premil on the planet.

Make it clear that you are only talking about certain Amils then. You come across as if you are talking about all Amills. I have made an effort to make it clear that I'm only speaking of certain Premills whenever I make an argument that I know does not apply to all Premills. You should do the same whenever you're making an argument against something an Amill believes, but not all Amills believe.

I used to think you were different. That you at least understood where someone is coming from and why though you disagree with them. But you are no different than @WPM with your false charges both of you hurl at me constantly.

Our charges are 100% legitimate. You misrepresent Amill constantly and that is a fact. You don't know what we believe better than we do. We know when our view is being misrepresented and you misrepresent Amill with almost every argument you try to make against it. You clearly have no understanding of Amill.

I might not be perfect, but God knows good and well that I'm not doing any of these things you Amils are charging me with.

He knows that you are doing that because it's very obvious. You are just ignorant about what you're doing.

Even chatgpt knows I'm not, either. I can submit anything to it that I have said, and that it manages to interpret what I said correctly everytime. Unlike you, it knows the difference between trying to debunk something vs someone insisting someone is saying and believes things they are not even remotely saying nor believe.

LOL. This is complete nonsense. ChatGPT is not even a person. You act like it is. We will tell you what we believe. You can't tell us what we believe and neither can ChatGPT.

Where you typically apply the latter to me rather than the former. And it's obviously never going to stop on your part since you appear to enjoy doing what you you are doing to me by having me doing things I'm not even doing nor is even coming to my mind. My guess is, even this paragraph here and the paragraph prior to it, as simple as it is to understand what I'm meaning here, has went over your head.

You have no idea how hard you are to follow sometimes. You don't speak in a clear, straightforward way.

But not because you are not intelligent enough to understand it, but because it takes all of the fun out of it for you if you were to apply the former to what I'm doing rather than the latter. Rather than just admitting that this is the ways I go about trying to debunk something.

I don't know what you're talking about here.

I do suspect one thing you are doing wrong when you are reading someone's post. Instead of reading it all the way through first then addressing the points made, you apparently start addressing posts as you are reading them in real time rather than reading them all the way through first in order to try and get an idea of where the poster is coming from and why. Which can then lead to taking that post out of context. I don't think it is fair to any poster for someone to be reading their posts and then addressing what they are saying in that part, then continue reading their posts, then addressing what they said in that part, rather than reading the entire post first, then start addressing it after that if they are planning on addressing the post fairly.

I do respond to each point as I read it and I won't stop doing that. But, if I read something later that shows that I misunderstood something said earlier, then I will edit my post. So, what you're saying here is 100% wrong. You just don't understand how you misrepresent Amill over and over again. You say we supposedly contradict Revelation 20 by supposedly making Satan's binding no different than his loosing and that couldn't be further from the truth. Why do you say nonsense like that? Why do you not address what we actually believe instead of trying to force your understanding of things onto our beliefs?

Instead of wasting time on things like this, can you please address what I said in post 163?

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

Whenever amil is exposed for the error that it is, you throw false accusations like the one above.

You also fail to answer two simple questions:
a.)When did the 1,000 years begin whereby satan is locked up?
b.) When did it end?

@Zao is life is not an amil. How can you not know that? He agrees with Amills that all unbelieving mortals will be killed when Jesus returns, but he believes that some of the dead who are resurrected will live during the supposed future thousand years because he thinks their faith still needs to be tested.

 

[David in NJ]

@Zao is life is not an amil. How can you not know that? He agrees with Amills that all unbelieving mortals will be killed when Jesus returns, but he believes that some of the dead who are resurrected will live during the supposed future thousand years because he thinks their faith still needs to be tested.

@Zao is life is 100% CORRECT on his/her sharing of the scriptures of the Christ = "IAM the Resurrection" = both now/Today and when HE Comes.

 

[David in NJ]

The OP in this thread remains true - which is the reason Amils agree with at least the OP - because they can see it themselves.

But you have drifted off course of the Holy Scriptures = OT Prophets, Gospel, Apostles because you have conflated the Creator who created us with the creature, and therefore you cannot see clearly - because you think being given eternal life and made immortal is the same as becoming THE ONLY SOURCE OF IT.

Zao: Living | being alive.

"In Him (God) we live | are alive [zao], and move, and have our being; For we are also his offspring." (Acts 17:28).

Zoe & Aionios Zoe: Life & Eternal Life. Source: God. He alone possesses life [zoe] in Himself:

"For as the Father hath life [zoe] in himself; so hath he given to the Son to have life [zoe] in himself." (John 5:26).

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The New Testament also calls God the living God (the God who is zao - alive). In biblical scripture the God who is alive (the living God) [zao], who has life [zoe] in Himself, created human beings to live | to be alive [zao], each one in his own created body on the created earth.

God did not create human beings so that Adam or anyone else should "die and then go to heaven when they die".

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When used in reference to God, the word zao is not associated with a human body.

When used in reference to the resurrected Man Jesus Christ, the word zao is associated with His resurrected, glorified human body. He has eternal zoe | life in Himself and He is zao forevermore, possessing His immortality:

-- "I am the First and the Last, and the Living [zao] One,
and I became dead [nekros],and behold, I am alive [zao] to the ages of the ages, Amen.
And I have the keys of hades and of death." (Revelation 1:17-18).​

"He (Christ) alone possesses immortality and lives in unapproachable light, whom no human has ever seen or is able to see. To him be honor and eternal power! Amen." (1 Timothy 6:15-16).

Immortality: To live | be alive [zao] forever (the body never dying or decaying).

When used in reference to created human beings, to be zao is to be alive in a created human body. Scripture NEVER calls a human being whose body has died, "zao". Nor is eternal life in the Greek New Testament ever called "aionios zao". Eternal life is aionos zoe.

The source of immortality is the continual supply of eternal life. The source of the continual supply of eternal life is God. The analogy Jesus gives us of this, is living [zao] water (water that is alive). (John 4:10-11; John 7:38), fountains of living waters (Revelation 7:17), a river of water of life [zoe]. It flows continually and implies that we need to continually drink.

Another analogy Jesus gave of this is of abiding in the Vine:

--- I am the vine, ye are the branches. Abide in me, and I in you, because if a man abide not in me, he is cast forth as a branch, and is withered; and men gather them, and cast them into the fire, and they are burned, and as the branch cannot bear fruit of itself, except it abide in the vine; no more can ye, except ye abide in me. He that abideth in me, and I in him, the same bringeth forth much fruit: for without me ye can do nothing. --- (John 15:4-6, verses rearranged).

The words below do not apply to created human beings:

-- "He (Christ) alone possesses immortality and lives in unapproachable light, whom no human has ever seen or is able to see. To him be honor and eternal power! Amen." -- 1 Timothy 6:15-16

The immortality created human beings experience is dependent on abiding in the Word of God. But the liar says, "You will NOT surely die".

Believing the lie is what caused Adam to follow Satan's "advice".

John 11:21-26

21 Then (Martha) said to Jesus, Lord, if You had been here, my brother would not have died.

22 But I know that even now, whatever You will ask of God, God will give You.

23 Jesus said to her, Your brother shall rise again [anistemi: the resurrection of the body].

24 Martha said to Him, I know that he shall rise again in the resurrection [anastasis: THE Resurrection of the body], at the last day.

25 Jesus said to her,

I am the Resurrection [anastasis] .."

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Compare:

Romans 14:9
--- "For this reason Christ died [apothnesko] and rose again from the dead [anistemi], and lived again [anazao: lived again in a body that is not dead], so that he may be the Lord of both the dead [nekros] and living [zao: those who are alive in a body that is not dead]." ---

In the book of Acts we read that when Festus told king Agrippa about the apostle Paul's case, he said that Paul's Jewish accusers had "brought none accusation of such things as I (Festus) supposed: But had certain questions against him of their own superstition, and of one Jesus, which was dead [thnesko], whom Paul affirmed to be alive. [zao]" (Acts 25:13-14).

In the Revelation we read that Jesus said, "I am he that liveth [zao], and was dead [nekros]; and, behold, I am alive [zao] unto the ages of the ages; Amen; and have the keys of hades and of death [thanatos]." (Revelation 1:18).
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Back to John 11:21-26:

".. I am the Resurrection [anastasis] AND the (eternal) life [ZOE]! He who believes in Me, THOUGH HE DIE (the death of the body), yet he shall live [zao: those who are living | alive in the body, those who are not lifeless, not dead].

(Jesus had said to her, "Your brother shall rise again") [anistemi: the resurrection of the body].

To be alive in the body: 26 And whoever is alive [zao] AND continues to believe in Me shall never die. Do you believe this? .."

Compare the above passage (John 11:21-26) with the following:

John 6:54-58:
"Whoso eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, hath eternal life [zoe]; and I will raise him up [anistemi] at the last day. For my flesh is meat indeed, and my blood is drink indeed. He that eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, dwelleth in me, and I in him. As the living [zao] Father hath sent me, and I live [zao] by the Father: so he that eateth me, even he shall live [zao] by me. This is that bread which came down from heaven: not as your fathers did eat manna, and are dead: he that eateth of this bread shall live [zao] for ever."

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Jesus was announcing the gospel of redemption from death to Martha: The context of John 11:21-26 is:

(i) the death [apothnesko] of the body; and

(ii) the resurrection [anistemi, anastasis] of the body; and

(iii) life/being alive in the body [zao].

It is in this context that Jesus told Martha that her brother (who had just died) will rise again, and that Jesus IS the resurrection (of the body), AND the life (eternal life: zoe), and the one who dies and rises again, is alive in the body [zao], and if that one continues to believe in Jesus, he shall never die (shall be immortal).

The churches' conflation of zoe with zao:

xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx

25 ".. He who believes in Me, though he die, yet he shall be spiritually alive.

26 And whoever is spiritually alive and believes in Me shall be spiritually alive forever and ever. Do you believe this?"

(Though this may come as a shock to many because of the teaching in main-stream Christian churches, the New Testament never talks about created human beings as being spiritually alive).

xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx

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The reason you conflate eternal life [zoe] with being alive forever [zao] in a human body that does not die (immortality) is because you have drifted off course of the Holy Scriptures = OT Prophets, Gospel, Apostles because you have conflated the Creator who created us with the creature, and therefore you cannot see clearly - because you think being given eternal life and made immortal is the same as becoming THE ONLY SOURCE OF IT.

@Zao = You are 100% CORRECT on your sharing of the scriptures pertaining to Christ = "IAM the Resurrection"
CHRIST resurrects our soul/spirits from the grave of spiritual death both now/Today and HE Completes it when HE Comes.

@Zao is life is CORRECT in stating Ephesians 2:4-7

But God, who is rich in mercy, because of His great love with which He loved us, even when we were dead in trespasses, made us alive together with Christ (by grace you have been saved), and raised us up together, and made us sit together in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus, that in the ages to come He might show the exceeding riches of His grace in His kindness toward us in Christ Jesus.

@Zao is life is CORRECT in saying CHRIST is ZAO = i AGREE and therefore by His Grace i am Saved and Hidden in Christ/Zao

@Zao is life is TOGETHER with @David in NJ in the ZAO of the LIVING ELOHIM = LORD GOD ALMIGHTY

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

@Zao is life is 100% CORRECT on his/her sharing of the scriptures of the Christ = "IAM the Resurrection" = both now/Today and when HE Comes.

I think everyone here agrees that Jesus is the resurrection and the life, as He said in John 11:25, but I'm sure you disagree with Zao is life about some being resurrected with mortal bodies in the future and then having their faith tested. I would assume you agree with me that today is the day and now is the time of salvation (2 Corinthians 6:2) and that the time of testing of one's faith is during this lifetime and not after someone is bodily resurrected from the dead?

 

[Zao is life]

CHRIST resurrects our soul/spirits from the grave of spiritual death both now/Today and HE Completes it when HE Comes.

The above is just more false, non-biblical (church) doctrine which is gibberish and based on a total misreading of the scriptures regarding the resurrection from the dead.

"Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the spirit shall return unto God who gave it. Vanity of vanities, saith the preacher; all is vanity." (Ecclesiastes 12:7-8).

When Jesus raised a young girl from the dead, we are told that "her spirit came again, and she arose straightway: and he commanded to give her meat." (Luke 8:55). Her spirit was not "dead" before she died - but before she died, she had not received (from God) the GIFT of eternal life [zoe] which exists in Christ, in God alone.

Nothing in creation has life unless it born of the Spirit of God (as when He breathed life [zoe] into Adam and Adam became a living [zao] soul).

THE GOSPEL IS TWO-FOLD: GOOD NEWS ABOUT ETERNAL LIFE [ZOE] BEING GIVEN IN CHRIST TO YOU; AND THE GOOD NEWS ABOUT THE RESURRECTION OF THE BODY FROM THE DEAD SO THAT YOU CAN BE ALIVE [ZAO] FOREVER IN CHRIST.

The good news for those who believe in the Son of God is that "God has given to us eternal life [zōḗ], and this life [zōḗ] is in His Son:
He that has the Son has (eternal) life; and he that has not the Son of God has not (eternal) life [zōḗ]." (1 John 5:11-12).

No created human being has eternal life in himself. The eternal life of any created human being who has been given eternal life is in Christ: Jesus told those who believed in Him:

"I am in my Father, and ye (will be) in me, and I in you."
(John 14:19b-20b)

In Colossians 1:27 Paul talks about "the mystery which has been hidden from ages and from generations, but now is made manifest to his saints,

which is Christ IN you, the hope of glory."

If you have been given eternal life by God, your eternal life is not in yourself, but IN CHRIST, who alone has life IN HIMSELF. Christ in you = eternal life in you. Jesus said, "The kingdom of God does not come with external evidence (that can be observed). Nor will they say, 'Look, here it is!' or 'It's over there!' For take heed, be discerning, and perceive this: The kingdom of God is within you." (Luke 17:21).

Without being born of the Spirit of God, a created human being does not also have life [zoe] that is eternal, and which is IN CHRIST, GIVEN to it.

The other part of the good news is the following:

"If Christ's Spirit is in you,

(1) your body is dead because of sin, but the Spirit (of Christ) is your (eternal) life [zoe] because of (Christ's) righteousness.

(2) Moreover, if the Spirit of the one who raised [egeiro] Jesus from the dead dwells in you, the one who raised [egeiro] Christ from the dead will also quicken [zōopoiéō] your mortal bodies through his Spirit who lives in you." (Romans 8:10-11).

"For the law of the Spirit of the life [zoe] (which is) in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death." (Romans 8:2).

"When Christ, who is our life [zōḗ], shall appear, then shall ye also appear with him in glory." (Colossians 3:4).

The result of Christ's Spirit in a human being quickening the dead body (making it alive again) is the resurrection of the body from the dead when Chris returns.

All this was bought for us by the blood of Christ when He died for our sins and rose again from the dead.

Nowhere does the Bible talk about "dead human spirits" - the hypothesis of so-called "spiritual death" is simply the absence of eternal life [zoe], and eternal life [zoe] is that which in Colossians 1:26-27 Paul calls,

"The mystery which hath been hid from ages and from generations, but now is made manifest to his saints", which is "Christ in you, the hope of glory."

"Spiritual life" | eternal life [aionios zoe] exists in God alone. It is given in Christ to those who have been born of the Spirit of God, and without being born of the Spirit of God, a created human being does not also have life [zoe] that is eternal GIVEN to it;

and because a created human being does not have life [zoe] IN ITSELF, when the body dies, the created human being is no longer alive [zao], and the life [zoe] of the flesh that has died goes back to its source (the spirit goes back to its source):

"Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the spirit shall return unto God who gave it. Vanity of vanities, saith the preacher; all is vanity." (Ecclesiastes 12:7-8).

ANOTHER OFTEN-REPEATED FALSE DOCTRINE:

"We are 'spiritually alive' because our 'dead' human spirits were 'quickened from death' at the same time that we were born of the Spirit."

The quickening (making alive) of the dead human body is what the verses in the New Testament which talk about the quickening of the dead are ALWAYS talking about, being based on the fact that after He died, His dead body having been quickened from the dead, Christ rose again from the dead, and lived again [ANAZAO].

This false doctrine about the "resurrection" of the soul / spirit "from the dead" has also lost sight of the fact that the gospel is holistic and applies to the body, soul and spirit of human beings (which is why the quickening of the body from death and the resurrection of the body from death are integral parts of the gospel of salvation from sin AND death). The quickening and resurrection of the dead body is accomplished through the life-giving Spirit of Christ:

"If Christ's Spirit is in you,

(1) your body is dead because of sin, but the Spirit (of Christ) is your (eternal) life [zoe] because of (Christ's) righteousness.

(2) Moreover, if the Spirit of the one who raised [egeiro] Jesus from the dead dwells in you, the one who raised [egeiro] Christ from the dead will also quicken [zōopoiéō] your mortal bodies through his Spirit who lives in you." (Romans 8:10-11).

"For the law of the Spirit of the life [zoe] (which is) in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death." (Romans 8:2).

"When Christ, who is our life [zōḗ], shall appear, then shall ye also appear with him in glory." (Colossians 3:4).

The quickening and resurrection of the human body from the dead results in immortality (to live | to be alive [zao] forever in a body that never dies or decays).

There is no such thing in biblical scripture as a spiritual "resurrection" of our souls / spirits. ONLY GOD CAN SAY: "I have' eternal life" | "I am spiritually alive" The spiritual life given to you is IN CHRIST and through CHRIST IN YOU.

"For IN HIM (God) we live | are alive [zao], and move, and have our being; For we are also his offspring." (Acts 17:28).

"The Logos ("Word") of God was in the beginning with God. In Him was life [zōḗ], and the life [zōḗ] is the light of men." (John 1:2 & 4).

"For as the Father hath life [zōḗ] in himself; so hath he given to the Son to have life [zōḗ] in himself." (John 5:26).

Being BORN of the Spirit of God (Christ Spirit being planted in you) has NOTHING to do with "resurrection from the dead". Your soul / spirit was never dead. If you die before the resurrection your soul and the Spirit of life in Christ which God continually gives you will go to Christ and your body will no longer be alive [zao]. This will be your condition UNTIL the resurrection of your body from the dead. After the resurrection you will be alive [zao] forever (immortal) AS LONG AS YOU REMAIN IN CHRIST AND CHRIST IN YOU - because He is your life [zao].

"You will NOT surely die" is still a lie.

Life [zoe] is in Christ alone, uniquely among human beings, the Logos who became a human being, i.e Jesus the Son of God alone possesses eternal life in Himself.

 

[Zao is life]

Who is saying that Satan's little season begins when the day of the Lord comes as a thief in the night? No one. Yet another straw man argument from you. You make no other kind of argument. When will you address what Amills actually believe?


What are you talking about here? Just because one Amil says they don't think anyone will be saved during Satan's little season means all Amills believe that? That's not what I believe. That would be like saying that Jesus doesn't reign anymore when the thousand years are over, but scripture says He will reign forever.

You seem to change your mind so often about what you believe and contradict yourself so often that it's impossible to know what you believe. So you can't blame anyone for "misrepresenting" what you believe. For example, one minute you have darkness not being able to overcome the light, the next minute you have darkness needing to be bound so as to prevent it from overcoming the light of the gospel.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

You seem to change your mind so often about what you believe and contradict yourself so often that it's impossible to know what you believe. So you can't blame anyone for "misrepresenting" what you believe.

That is a lie. All you have to offer anymore are lies. It's sad to see.

For example, one minute you have darkness not being able to overcome the light, the next minute you have darkness needing to be bound so as to prevent it from overcoming the light of the gospel.

Wrong. Don't blame me for your lack of reading comprehension skills. When He was on the earth, Jesus said this.

John 9:5 While I am in the world, I am the light of the world.”

Those who belong to Him are, by association, also the light of the world, which is why He said this:

Matthew 5:14 “You are the light of the world. A town built on a hill cannot be hidden. 15 Neither do people light a lamp and put it under a bowl. Instead they put it on its stand, and it gives light to everyone in the house. 16 In the same way, let your light shine before others, that they may see your good deeds and glorify your Father in heaven.

Before Jesus came, there was virtually no spiritual light in the world, which is why Paul said before Jesus came that the Gentiles had "no hope" and were "without God in the world" (Ephesians 2:11-12). The world was in spiritual darkness in those times, but the light of Jesus and His gospel changed all that. The darkness was not able to overcome the light in New Testament times which is why we see a description of a great multitude of saved people that no one can count from all nations in Revelation 7:9. It's the light of Jesus and His gospel that bound Satan from being able to keep the world in spiritual darkness any longer like he was able to do before the light of the world came.

So, if you actually read what I'm saying here, you can see that I am NOT saying that darkness has EVER overcome the light, with the understanding that the light is Jesus Himself and His followers who spread the gospel throughout the world which bring the light into a formerly dark world that had no light.