What is your notion of Christian exclusivity?

[Rella ~ I am a woman]

What do you make of this?

John 10:16 NIV
I have other sheep that are not of this sheep pen. I must bring them also.
They too will listen to my voice, and there shall be one flock and one shepherd.

/

A great question .

3 Important verses that could raise more questions then answers are these.

Mathew 15:24 I list this first because it seemingly had Jesus making a specific point.

But He answered and said, “I was sent only to the lost sheep of the house of Israel.”

However leading up to this comment that Jesus made to the the woman seeking a healing for her daughter was...

Mathew 10:15

These twelve Jesus sent out after instructing them: “Do not go in the way of the Gentiles, and do not enter any city of the Samaritans;

So, After selecting twelve disciples, Jesus instructs them for their mission to the villages of Galilee. The first of these commands may surprise some readers, since Jesus restricts their mission to the Jews. They are not to go to Gentiles or Samaritans at all!

The 3rd verse is what you asked about:

John 10:16 NASB95

I have other sheep, which are not of this fold; I must bring them also, and they will hear My voice; and they will become one flock with one shepherd.

So are these from Mathew and John conflicting... they almost seem to be.

If we remember James and John want to call fire down from heaven to destroy a Samaritan village for refusing to receive Jesus (Luke 9:54). Even though Jesus speaks with a Samaritan woman, his disciples are surprised he is talking to the woman (4:27).

And also even as late as Acts 10 Peter is reluctant to preach the Gospel of the God- fearer Cornelius and he is criticized when he returns to Jerusalem (11:1-3). James is still suspicious of Paul’s gentile mission in Acts 21:17-26.

I found this commentary that offers this explanation Why did Jesus tell his Disciples to not go to the Gentiles? - Matthew 10:5 - Reading Acts

BTW... reading Acts you can have come directly to your inbox.

"It is therefore not surprising Jesus tells his disciples to only go to the Jews. The announcement that the Kingdom of God is near, and Jesus is the Messiah would have little meaning for a Samaritan and less for a Gentile. Mike Wilkins asks why Jesus would bother with the command if the disciples were not likely to go to the Gentiles anyway. For Wilkins, the prohibition dispels any doubts about whether Jesus was really the messiah. This is “Israel’s opportunity” and later they will be responsible for their rejection of the Messiah (Matthew, 390).

Is this restriction retracted in the Great Commission? Perhaps. But in the Book of Acts the initial mission was to still to the Jews in Jerusalem (Acts 2-7) first. There is suspicion of Philip’s mission in Samaria (Acts 8) and of Peter’s mission to Cornelius (Acts 10). Even in Acts 21 it does not seem like James is operating under the Great Commission; he is not reaching out to Samaritans or Gentiles (and probably not Hellenistic Jews). John Nolland argues Matthew did not consider the Great Commission as a “replacement of the mission to Israel with a mission to the Gentiles,” Jesus’s disciples are to continue their mission to Israel after the resurrection (Matthew, 429).

Who are the lost sheep of the house of Israel? The “lost sheep of the house of Israel” alludes to Jeremiah 50:6 and evokes the long exile of Israel. Just prior to the final destruction of Jerusalem and the scattering of God’s people among the nations, God describes the people as “lost sheep,” ignored by their shepherds and harassed by the nations. Remember Matthew has just described the Jewish crowds as “sheep without a shepherd” (9:36). As the messiah, Jesus is the good shepherd sending his working into the world to care for the lost sheep.
The twelve are to proclaim the same message as Jesus, “the Kingdom of Heaven is at hand” (Matthew 4:17). Although repentance is not specifically mentioned in 10:6-7, Jesus condemns the villages of Galilee because they did not repent after seeing his miracles (11:20-24). The disciples are to do the same messianic signs as Jesus in Matthew 8-9 (heal the sick, raise the dead, cleanse lepers, cast out demons).

So we get to John. John 10:16
And I have other sheep that are not of this fold; I must bring them also, and they will listen to My voice; and they will become one flock, with one shepherd.

And a handful of other related scripture
Isaiah 56:8
Thus declares the Lord GOD, who gathers the dispersed of Israel: "I will gather to them still others besides those already gathered."

Ezekiel 34:12
As a shepherd looks for his scattered sheep when he is among the flock, so I will look for My flock. I will rescue them from all the places to which they were scattered on a day of clouds and darkness.

Acts 15:14
Simeon hath declared how God at the first did visit the Gentiles, to take out of them a people for his name.

Romans 8:29,30
For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren…

John 6:37
All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out.

Ezekiel 37:22
And I will make them one nation in the land upon the mountains of Israel; and one king shall be king to them all: and they shall be no more two nations, neither shall they be divided into two kingdoms any more at all:

Ephesians 2:14
For he is our peace, who hath made both one, and hath broken down the middle wall of partition between us;

The church must strive to remember that historically, contextually and covenantally, the gospel is, was and will always be particularly and especially for Jewish people because it’s such a Jewish thing!

“Replacement theology” that considers the church to have taken the place of Israel is sinful, not only because of its arrogance toward the Jewish people which the Bible warns us against, but also in terms of its failure to appropriate Romans 1:16 in its understanding of the Great Commission. The gospel is for the Jewish people today as much as it ever was. Our challenge is to boldly and joyfully embrace the truth that the gospel is the power of God unto salvation particularly to the Jew and equally to the Gentile.
Romans 11 teaches that Gentiles can be included and grafted in equally, alongside Israel. Ephesians shows how the Gentile believer is welcomed into a new home, one they have never been to before, but they are now warmly invited in as family. The red carpet is laid out for the nations to join the commonwealth of Israel, and they can be adopted into a home that was not their own. Equally, when we share the gospel with Jewish people, we are not asking them to leave the faith of their Fathers – we are inviting them to come back home.
Yet, it certainly seemed in the beginning that Jesus was only for the Jews....


Yet, it still certainly seemed in the beginning that Jesus was only for the Jews.... and I praise God with thanks for that Olive Tree.

 

[St. SteVen]

A great question .

Thanks.
Not everyone on the forum values questions.
But you are one of the fine folks that do.
I appreciate you.

Mathew 15:24 I list this first because it seemingly had Jesus making a specific point.

But He answered and said, “I was sent only to the lost sheep of the house of Israel.”

However leading up to this comment that Jesus made to the the woman seeking a healing for her daughter was...

Yes!
So interesting that Jesus "heals" (see below) the Canaanite woman's daughter after declaring.
“I was sent only to the lost sheep of the house of Israel.”
Her persistence was rewarded. Regardless of our individual callings, God turns no one away.
Seems to me that Jesus had a word of knowledge (see 1 Cor. 12) to tell the woman her daughter was healed.
Jesus didn't heal the Canaanite woman's daughter, God did. And then informed Jesus as to why.

Mathew 10:15

These twelve Jesus sent out after instructing them: “Do not go in the way of the Gentiles, and do not enter any city of the Samaritans;

So, After selecting twelve disciples, Jesus instructs them for their mission to the villages of Galilee. The first of these commands may surprise some readers, since Jesus restricts their mission to the Jews. They are not to go to Gentiles or Samaritans at all!

And as you say below. Where did Jesus go after telling them not to? - LOL

The 3rd verse is what you asked about:

John 10:16 NASB95

I have other sheep, which are not of this fold; I must bring them also, and they will hear My voice; and they will become one flock with one shepherd.

So are these from Mathew and John conflicting... they almost seem to be.

If we remember James and John want to call fire down from heaven to destroy a Samaritan village for refusing to receive Jesus (Luke 9:54). Even though Jesus speaks with a Samaritan woman, his disciples are surprised he is talking to the woman (4:27).

Agree.

And also even as late as Acts 10 Peter is reluctant to preach the Gospel of the God- fearer Cornelius and he is criticized when he returns to Jerusalem (11:1-3). James is still suspicious of Paul’s gentile mission in Acts 21:17-26.

Yes. I LOVE that story. Thanks.
Seems that Saul of Tarsus was the first called to the gentiles.

Acts 9:15-16 NIV
But the Lord said to Ananias, “Go! This man is my chosen instrument
to proclaim my name to the Gentiles and their kings and to the people of Israel.
16 I will show him how much he must suffer for my name.”

I found this commentary that offers this explanation Why did Jesus tell his Disciples to not go to the Gentiles? - Matthew 10:5 - Reading Acts

BTW... reading Acts you can have come directly to your inbox.

Thanks for the link.
Do you know what their position is on the gifts of the Holy Spirit?
Are they Cessationist or Continuationist?

/

 

[Rella ~ I am a woman]

Thanks.
Not everyone on the forum values questions.
But you are one of the fine folks that do.
I appreciate you.


Yes!
So interesting that Jesus "heals" (see below) the Canaanite woman's daughter after declaring.
“I was sent only to the lost sheep of the house of Israel.”
Her persistence was rewarded. Regardless of our individual callings, God turns no one away.
Seems to me that Jesus had a word of knowledge (see 1 Cor. 12) to tell the woman her daughter was healed.
Jesus didn't heal the Canaanite woman's daughter, God did. And then informed Jesus as to why.


And as you say below. Where did Jesus go after telling them not to? - LOL


Agree.


Yes. I LOVE that story. Thanks.
Seems that Saul of Tarsus was the first called to the gentiles.

Acts 9:15-16 NIV
But the Lord said to Ananias, “Go! This man is my chosen instrument
to proclaim my name to the Gentiles and their kings and to the people of Israel.
16 I will show him how much he must suffer for my name.”


Thanks for the link.
Do you know what their position is on the gifts of the Holy Spirit?
Are they Cessationist or Continuationist?

/

I truly have no idea.

Seems they are a blog, and offer links to books to buy and some free from what
I have read....

It is fairly new to me and I have not had time to delve in. Hopefully this weekend.

The one link welcoming me as a member... About Reading Acts - Reading Acts

And on that page is where you can list your email.

On the Welcome email they had

Great content you might have missed on Reading Acts​

• The Fallen Angels – 1 Enoch 6-8
• Daniel 1:8-16 - What was Wrong with the King’s Food?
• Daniel 5:5-12 – What was the Meaning of the Handwriting on the Wall?

 

[St. SteVen]

St. SteVen said:
Thanks for the link.
Do you know what their position is on the gifts of the Holy Spirit?
Are they Cessationist or Continuationist?

I truly have no idea.

Thanks.
I can explain the difference if need be.
Your signature line says you are Spirit filled, so you are probably familiar.

/

 

[Peterlag]

What do you make of this?

John 10:16 NIV
I have other sheep that are not of this sheep pen. I must bring them also.
They too will listen to my voice, and there shall be one flock and one shepherd.

/

He was just probably telling the Jews there will be Christians coming into this too.

 

[St. SteVen]

He was just probably telling the Jews there will be Christians coming into this too.

Not sure that would be good news for the Jews. - LOL
God had told them to be separate from the gentiles.
Do you remember what Peter said to Cornelius? (against our law...)

/

 

[Peterlag]

Not sure that would be good news for the Jews. - LOL
God had told them to be separate from the gentiles.
Do you remember what Peter said to Cornelius? (against our law...)

/

Gentiles did not come into the fold. Christians did when the Jews ended.

 

[Randy Kluth]

II just posted what you said. I'm sorry if that is not what you meant. I was just happy that someone loves Him without tit for tat.

Excellent point! I get you now. We do not have real love unless it's so buried within us that we don't look for cause to be otherwise. Our love for God must be unconditional just as it is towards us. There is no shade with God.

James 1.Every good and perfect gift is from above, coming down from the Father of the heavenly lights, who does not change like shifting shadows.

 

[Wrangler]

“Replacement theology” that considers the church to have taken the place of Israel

Just out of curiosity, what is the name of the philosophy in opposition to this?

I’ve heard of “Replacement theology” but not the name of its opposite. I consider proper theology to be that we are grafted into Israel as chosen by God.

 

[Davy]

Just out of curiosity, what is the name of the philosophy in opposition to this?

I’ve heard of “Replacement theology” but not the name of its opposite. I consider proper theology to be that we are grafted into Israel as chosen by God.

The idea of "Replacement theology" is one of the favorite terms pushed especially by Jewish converts to Christ. They use it as a ploy for trying to exalt themselves, just like the Roman Church started doing when they created the office of "bishop of bishops" (i.e.,, the pope).


What is hidden from Jews today... and especially from most of Church leaders that wrongly listen to those Jews:

Old Testament history about the creation of Israel involves the Promise by Faith first believed by Abraham, which in Galatians 3 and Romans 4 Apostle Paul revealed is the same Faith of The Gospel of Jesus Christ that we have believed.

Now Abraham's Faith was prior to the existence of Israel, yet Israel would come out of Abraham's loins.

This means... The Gospel Faith was always FIRST, and then came the concept of God's Israel.

Old Testament history reveals God's Birthright Blessings were given to Abraham as part of that Promise by Faith. And then those Blessings were transferred through the seed of his son Isaac, then to Jacob who was given the new name ISRAEL, which means those who overcome by God's help. Then the Birthright and Blessings continued with Joseph, and then his two sons Ephraim and Manasseh, where God's Birthright and Blessings still are to this day per 1 Chronicles 5, and is represented by the founders of the Western Christian Church.

And the Jews really hate this, because the original founders of the Western Christian Nations under Jesus Christ are represented by the ten lost tribes of Israel which were NEVER known by the title of Jew. (The Jewish historian Josephus, 100 A.D., said the title of JEW was what those of the 3 tribe "house of Judah" called theirselves returning from the 70 years Babylon captivity. That captivity involved only the 3 tribes of Judah, Benjamin, and Levi, and they only referred to themselves as Jews.)

Per Bible history starting in 1 Kings 11, God split the old nation of Israel into 2 separate kingdoms:

JEWS = the 3 tribe "kingdom of Judah" that dwelt in the south at Judea-Jerusalem, with the kings of Judah, of the house of David, until Nebuchadnezzar ended their king line in Jerusalem with killing king Zedekiah and his son heirs.

ISRAEL = the 10 tribe northern "kingdom of Israel" that dwelt in the northern portions of the holy land. These made up the MAJORITY OF ISRAELITES. God scattered these ten tribes first, ending their kingdom, and they went captive to Assyria and the lands of the Medes, never to return as a people. These 10 tribes became known as LOST because God said He would cause them to lose knowledge of His feast days, new moons, and sabbaths, and not find their way back (see Book of Hosea). They had fallen into Baal worship against Him, so He removed them out of His sight. Only the 3-tribe kingdom of Judah was left in the holy land (2 Kings 17). The ten lost tribes became 'as' Gentiles, living among Gentiles, losing their heritage as part of old Israel, and were scattered mainly to Asia Minor and Europe.

All 12 tribes are Israelites of the seed, but the JEWS are ONLY descended from the 3 tribes of Judah, Benjamin, and Levi, with a very small remnant of the 10 tribes that left the north and sided with Rehoboam of the house of David. To this day, the JEWS have no king of the house of David in Jerusalem. But God did not forget His promise to David that there would always be one of his seed to sit upon his throne unto all generations...

God moved... David's throne to the Christian West, under Jesus Christ. The founding of the historical Western Christian Nations fulfilled the Genesis 35 prophecy that Jacob's seed would become "a company of nations", and the Genesis 48 prophecy that Ephraim's seed would become "a multitude of nations".

If you can get any of the JEWS to admit this true history, you would be lucky. After the ten tribes of Israel were scattered long ago, God ending their northern kingdom, the Jews of the southern kingdom were the only Israelites left in the land, so of course they began claiming that they, the Jews, only, were the only true Israelites, even as it is today. It's actually very amazing and at the same time laughable today, because of how so many Christian pastors won't study their Old Testament histories and prophecies about all this, but instead just accept whatever the Jews say.

 

[Davy]

But the reality is, apart from the salvation and eternal life aspects Jesus was no more profound than many other spiritual teachers. This is what those whose Christianity exists in a biblical vacuum fail to realize. Many of Jesus' teachings had precedents in Judaism and have counterparts in other religions. If Christian metaphysics aren't ontologically true, then Jesus is just another sage. The Four Noble Truths and Eightfold Path of Buddhism are at least as profound as anything in Christianity.

Don't know who gave those ideas, but they aren't true. And in my non-Christian younger years, I had studied eastern religion and their philosophy, so I am not blind to where Judaism's real history is but a corruption that was caused by the Jew's captivity to Babylon. The religion of the Jews, Judaism, is actually based on the Babylonian Talmud writings of their Jewish sage philosophy, not accurately upon God's Word. Their Talmud takes precedence, and this is why Lord Jesus would rebuke the scribes and Pharisees.

So then that begs a question, of why were the scribes of Israel sided with the blind Pharisees in wanting to kill Lord Jesus? Afterall, the scribes were in charge of keeping accurate copies of The Old Testament Books from generation to generation, so they would have well known what is contained in them, right?

If Judaism was the original belief of the Israelites, then how could they go against Moses and the prophets? (Luke 16:28-31)

1 Chron 2:55
55 And the families of the scribes which dwelt at Jabez; the Tirathites, the Shimeathites, and Suchathites. These are the Kenites that came of Hemath, the father of the house of Rechab.
KJV

That reveals the scribes of Israel by that time had become taken over by the Kenites, which were a foreign people that originated in the land of Canaan (see their mention in Genesis 15).

In a mystical classic, Cosmic Consciousness (1901), Canadian psychiatrist Richard Maurice Bucke examined the lives of many individiuals who seemed to him to have the enlightened spirituality he characterized as "cosmic consciousness." He ranked Jesus high, but not as high as several others.

That is OCCULT PAGANISM.

It is the occultists that push that "Cosmic Consciousness" notion that actually originated from the early Gnostics who believed in doing spiritual practices (mysticism) to attain spiritual enlightenment. The occult fraternities today, like the Rosicrucian Order, still teaches those ideas to their members. GOD in His Word WARNS against doing those occult things.

Mysticism, what is it?:

Mysticism is about the idea of 'experiencing' spiritual phenomena. It's about having direct religious experiences of GOD through practice of religious exercises (so-called), repetitive styles of worship (which paganism practices), etc.

It is basically the attempt to 'penetrate' that other dimension of the Heavenly, and have direct experiences. Jesus warned against that practice, which most fail to understand what He was saying...

Matt 11:12
12 And from the days of John the Baptist until now the kingdom of heaven suffereth violence, and the violent take it by force.
KJV

The Greek word for "violence" is biazo which suggests those who attempt to penetrate heaven by occultic force, i.e., through the system of occult mysticism, which involves use of witchcraft, necromancy, divining, charmers, wizard, or consulter with evil spirits (see Deuteronomy 18).

 

[St. SteVen]

Gentiles did not come into the fold. Christians did when the Jews ended.

That seems awkwardly stated. (I know you can do better)
There are still Christian Jews to this day. And non-Christian Jews.

You remember that we were grafted in to Israel, correct?

Romans 11:17-20 NIV
If some of the branches have been broken off, and you,
though a wild olive shoot, have been grafted in among the others
and now share in the nourishing sap from the olive root,
18 do not consider yourself to be superior to those other branches.
If you do, consider this: You do not support the root, but the root supports you.
19 You will say then, “Branches were broken off so that I could be grafted in.”
20 Granted. But they were broken off because of unbelief,
and you stand by faith. Do not be arrogant, but tremble.

/

 

[Peterlag]

That seems awkwardly stated. (I know you can do better)
There are still Christian Jews to this day. And non-Christian Jews.

You remember that we were grafted in to Israel, correct?

Romans 11:17-20 NIV
If some of the branches have been broken off, and you,
though a wild olive shoot, have been grafted in among the others
and now share in the nourishing sap from the olive root,
18 do not consider yourself to be superior to those other branches.
If you do, consider this: You do not support the root, but the root supports you.
19 You will say then, “Branches were broken off so that I could be grafted in.”
20 Granted. But they were broken off because of unbelief,
and you stand by faith. Do not be arrogant, but tremble.

/

There is no place in the Bible that uses that language. I know this because a number of folks on here already tried and were unable to find a verse that refers to a Christian Jew or a Gentile Christian. So it is not awkwardly stated. The Bible does not have those words and it's the Bible we are trying to understand. Now you can use those words and you can even write a book about all the Christians that you know who are Gentiles and you can call them Gentile Christians. But God does not use those words.

 

[Rella ~ I am a woman]

There is no place in the Bible that uses that language. I know this because a number of folks on here already tried and were unable to find a verse that refers to a Christian Jew or a Gentile Christian. So it is not awkwardly stated. The Bible does not have those words and it's the Bible we are trying to understand. Now you can use those words and you can even write a book about all the Christians that you know who are Gentiles and you can call them Gentile Christians. But God does not use those words.

Nor did they find Messianic Jew but we all know they are.... at least I do.

As to Gentile Christians ... Type that into a search bar and look what comes back.

According to the book of Acts in the New Testament, the first gentile Christian converts were Cornelius and his family. The way the book of Acts describes it, Peter got a vision allowing people to eat all food, no longer under the kosher restrictions. Then it claims Peter decided that Jews and gentiles are equal, and it claims that Peter got a vision to go to visit Cornelius and Cornelius got a vision to welcome him. And Peter was clearly persuasive, the whole family of Cornelius was converted, spoke in tongues and was baptized. Before that Christians were converting only Jews, not allowed to convert gentiles. So if you go by the account in the book of Acts, this was a huge change in Christianity at the time. Christianity became a very different religion from Judaism. The change caused disputes among Christians, but then at the council of Jerusalem a decision was made by the leaders, including Peter, to accept the huge changes. So that led to a big split among Christians, with most accepting the huge changes, and some remained loyal to Jewish rules, including kosher rules, etc. So they got separated. Those loyal to Jewish rules came to be called Ebionites. They believed in Jesus being the Messiah, but followed the rules of the Law of Moses. They were not converting gentiles, they remained Jewish. But because those who accepted the huge changes, they were after that converting many gentiles, they got much more converts than the Ebionites. The Christians who accepted the big changes split up into a number of denominations, with often very different beliefs. Then the Roman emperor Constantine rejected paganism and favored the Catholics, he presided over the Catholic council of Nicea. Ultimately the Catholic church became dominant in the Roman empire, it became the official religion of the Roman empire, and it was then able to persecute the non-Catholics, both non-Catholic Christians, and non-Christians. The Ebionites and other churches became ultimately extinct due to Catholic persecution. Well, in the twentieth century the Catholics accepted the beliefs in freedom of religion. So now almost all the European countries have freedom of religion. And that is very good. Freedom of religion is one of the important freedoms of free countries.

So God does not use those words.

Neither does He use Easter.... That was King Jimmy's men...

Next

 

[Behold]

Christian exclusivity is the core doctrine that only Christians will be saved.

Christians have been saved.
This is to be born again.
This is why they have become a "Christian".
Its not a work in progress, or a future event.

Unbelievers, who are not born again, are not Christians.

And they exist HERE :

John 3:36

Heaven is not going to receive those who are not Born again Christians.
Hell is not created for Born again Christians.

 

[O'Darby]

Christians have been saved.
This is to be born again.
This is why they have become a "Christian".
Its not a work in progress, or a future event.

Unbelievers, who are not born again, are not Christians.

And they exist HERE :

John 3:36

Heaven is not going to receive those who are not Born again Christians.
Hell is not created for Born again Christians.

Ah, to be so simple! No shades of gray, no uncertainty, no ambiguity, no mystery.

John 3:36 - so simple, so black-and-white:

The one who believes in the Son has eternal life; but the one who does not obey the Son will not see life, but the wrath of God remains on him.​

WHAT DOES IT MEAN to "believe in the Son"? WHAT DOES IT MEAN to "obey the Son"? If BELIEVE and OBEY are the same thing, or mere BELIEVING is all that is required, why say OBEY in the second clause?

Hmmmm, maybe not so simple. And then we factor in, if we dare, why the Jesus and the Christology of John are so different from the Synoptics. Hmmmm, maybe not so simple.

Black-and-white, completely un-nuanced belief is certainly a legitimate species of belief - but it's not the only species of belief, as this thread demonstrates.

 

[Peterlag]

Nor did they find Messianic Jew but we all know they are.... at least I do.

As to Gentile Christians ... Type that into a search bar and look what comes back.

According to the book of Acts in the New Testament, the first gentile Christian converts were Cornelius and his family. The way the book of Acts describes it, Peter got a vision allowing people to eat all food, no longer under the kosher restrictions. Then it claims Peter decided that Jews and gentiles are equal, and it claims that Peter got a vision to go to visit Cornelius and Cornelius got a vision to welcome him. And Peter was clearly persuasive, the whole family of Cornelius was converted, spoke in tongues and was baptized. Before that Christians were converting only Jews, not allowed to convert gentiles. So if you go by the account in the book of Acts, this was a huge change in Christianity at the time. Christianity became a very different religion from Judaism. The change caused disputes among Christians, but then at the council of Jerusalem a decision was made by the leaders, including Peter, to accept the huge changes. So that led to a big split among Christians, with most accepting the huge changes, and some remained loyal to Jewish rules, including kosher rules, etc. So they got separated. Those loyal to Jewish rules came to be called Ebionites. They believed in Jesus being the Messiah, but followed the rules of the Law of Moses. They were not converting gentiles, they remained Jewish. But because those who accepted the huge changes, they were after that converting many gentiles, they got much more converts than the Ebionites. The Christians who accepted the big changes split up into a number of denominations, with often very different beliefs. Then the Roman emperor Constantine rejected paganism and favored the Catholics, he presided over the Catholic council of Nicea. Ultimately the Catholic church became dominant in the Roman empire, it became the official religion of the Roman empire, and it was then able to persecute the non-Catholics, both non-Catholic Christians, and non-Christians. The Ebionites and other churches became ultimately extinct due to Catholic persecution. Well, in the twentieth century the Catholics accepted the beliefs in freedom of religion. So now almost all the European countries have freedom of religion. And that is very good. Freedom of religion is one of the important freedoms of free countries.

So God does not use those words.

Neither does He use Easter.... That was King Jimmy's men...

Next

Nor did they find Messianic Jew but we all know they are.... at least I do.

I am not trying to understand what you write. I'm trying to understand what the Bible is saying and it does not use those words.

As to Gentile Christians ... Type that into a search bar and look what comes back.

I did that and I did not see any Scriptures come up.

According to the book of Acts in the New Testament, the first gentile Christian converts were Cornelius and his family.

There is no statement in the book of Acts that says gentile Christian.

This is important because we need to understand what the Bible is talking about when it uses words. If we add our own words to the text then we are re-writing the Bible. I do not know why we have so many Christians who believe the entire Bible is written directly to them, the Church of God. There is nothing in the Bible to indicate such thinking, and I would like to add nothing could be further from the truth. It's true the Word of God was written for everyone for all time, and it's for our learning because it contains what everyone should know. That does not mean every part of it is addressed to everyone in this time, because the subject matter was written either to the Jews, to the Gentiles, or to the Church of God (1 Corinthians 10:32).

 

[Rella ~ I am a woman]

Nor did they find Messianic Jew but we all know they are.... at least I do.

I am not trying to understand what you write. I'm trying to understand what the Bible is saying and it does not use those words.

As to Gentile Christians ... Type that into a search bar and look what comes back.

I did that and I did not see any Scriptures come up.

According to the book of Acts in the New Testament, the first gentile Christian converts were Cornelius and his family.

There is no statement in the book of Acts that says gentile Christian.

This is important because we need to understand what the Bible is talking about when it uses words. If we add our own words to the text then we are re-writing the Bible. I do not know why we have so many Christians who believe the entire Bible is written directly to them, the Church of God. There is nothing in the Bible to indicate such thinking, and I would like to add nothing could be further from the truth. It's true the Word of God was written for everyone for all time, and it's for our learning because it contains what everyone should know. That does not mean every part of it is addressed to everyone in this time, because the subject matter was written either to the Jews, to the Gentiles, or to the Church of God (1 Corinthians 10:32).

Fair enough.

But in your studies make certain to check into all translations and commentaries as to what is said or why it is not said in the written word of God and I will , for one, be following what you find out.

Now, the reason I say this about the translations can be illustrated in one of the most well known scriptures that have ever been debated as much as it has and that is Mark 16:16.

It is alleged that one of the oldest, if not the oldest New Testament translations that came into being was/is the Codex Sinaiticus.

When one is reading it there are certain verses that do not necessarily match up with what we might call a "modern day" one... even though our modern days may be several hundred years old.

In the Codex Sinaiticus , Mark 16:16 ends with the 8th verse.

Look at the following comparison. KJV vs CS (You can scroll to the end of each)

The Markan Resurrection
(Mark 16: 1–14)


King James Version
1 “And when the sabbath was past, Mary Magdalene, and Mary the mother of James, and Salome, had bought sweet spices, that they might come and anoint him.
2 And very early in the morning the first day of the week, they came unto the sepulchre at the rising of the sun.
3 And they said among themselves, Who shall roll us away the stone from the door of the sepulchre?
4 And when they looked, they saw that the stone was rolled away: for it was very great.
5 And entering into the sepulchre, they saw a young man sitting on the right side, clothed in a long white garment; and they were affrighted.
6 And he saith unto them, Be not affrighted: Ye seek Jesus of Nazareth, which was crucified: he is risen; he is not here: behold the place where they laid him.
7 But go your way, tell his disciples and Peter that he goeth before you into Galilee: there shall ye see him, as he said unto you.
8 And they went out quickly, and fled from the sepulchre; for they trembled and were amazed: neither said they any thing to any man; for they were afraid.
9 Now when Jesus was risen early the first day of the week, he appeared first to Mary Magdalene, out of whom he had cast seven devils.
10 And she went and told them that had been with him, as they mourned and wept.
11 And they, when they had heard that he was alive, and had been seen of her, believed not.
12 After that he appeared in another form unto two of them, as they walked, and went into the country.
13 And they went and told it unto the residue: neither believed they them.
14 Afterward he appeared unto the eleven as they sat at meat, and upbraided them with their unbelief and hardness of heart, because they believed not them which had seen him after he was risen.
15 And he said unto them, Go ye into all the world, and preach the gospel to every creature.
16 He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned.
17 And these signs shall follow them that believe; In my name shall they cast out devils; they shall speak with new tongues;
18 They shall take up serpents; and if they drink any deadly thing, it shall not hurt them; they shall lay hands on the sick, and they shall recover.
19 So then after the Lord had spoken unto them, he was received up into heaven, and sat on the right hand of God.
20 And they went forth, and preached every where, the Lord working with them, and confirming the word with signs following. Amen.
Codex Sinaiticus
1 “And when the sabbath was past, Mary Magdalene, and Mary the mother of James, and Salome, had bought sweet spices, that they might come and anoint him.
2 And very early in the morning the first day of the week, they came unto the sepulchre at the rising of the sun.
3 And they said among themselves, Who shall roll us away the stone from the door of the sepulchre?
4 And when they looked, they saw that the stone was rolled away: for it was very great.
5 And entering into the sepulchre, they saw a young man sitting on the right side, clothed in a long white garment; and they were affrighted.
6 And he saith unto them, Be not affrighted: Ye seek Jesus of Nazareth, which was crucified: he is risen; he is not here: behold the place where they laid him.
7 But go your way, tell his disciples and Peter that he goeth before you into Galilee: there shall ye see him, as he said unto you.
8 And they went out quickly, and fled from the sepulchre; for they trembled and were amazed: neither said they any thing to any man; for they were afraid.

​

 

[Soyeong]

Christian exclusivity is the core doctrine that only Christians will be saved. "Jesus said to him, 'I am the way, the truth, and the life. No one comes to the Father except through Me.'" John 14:6, NKJV.

The common understanding is that non-Christians are destined for eternity in hell. Is this your understanding - i.e., all Buddhists, Hindus, Muslims, atheists and other non-Christians are destined for hell? Considering the widely different circumstances of people across the globe - the widely different odds of them ever hearing about Jesus in a meaningful way or turning to Him even if they do - I find this difficult if not impossible to believe.

William Lane Craig has suggested that perhaps God has "arranged things" so that those He foreknew would turn to Christ are geographically located so they will hear and respond. A kid born into a Southern Baptist family in the Bible belt and a kid born into a low-caste Hindu family in New Delhi are where they are because God foreknew the former would respond to Jesus and the latter would not. Not very convincing, at least to me.

Calvinism has less of a problem with this issue, it seems to me. All humans are depraved and deserving of hell, God's predestined elect will be saved no matter where they are because this is what God has decreed, and those who aren't saved simply weren't among the elect. All fairly neat and tidy, although perhaps not much different from what Craig suggests.

Universalism has less problem as well. All will eventually be saved, even if it takes eons in hell before some of them turn to God. Exclusivity ultimately isn't exclusive at all!

Another approach that occurred to me is that perhaps "No one comes to the Father except through me" means something different from Christian exclusivity as commonly understood. Perhaps it means Jesus is the gatekeeper - He decides who is saved, but this could include Hindis, Buddhists or anyone else. I recall Billy Graham once causing a furor by suggesting there might be "secret Christians" who didn't even know they were.

After reading a large mountain of theology and apologetics over the decades, I really don't have a satisfactory answer. (Yes, I know, God's ways are not my ways and don't have to make sense to me.)

Some 54 years ago, when I was almost a newbie, the Campus Crusade staff member at our university asked me to fill in for him one night. A girl named Sherry asked, "Do we really think all Buddhists are going to hell?" I responded, "We have to believe and trust that God will deal with Buddhists in a way worthy of who we believe Him to be." I don't think I have a better answer now. Yes, it is kind of punting on the issue - chalking it up to a divine mystery - but I find this more satisfactory than pretending I really believe God is condemning vast swaths of humanity to eternal torment in hell. (Actually, I do the same with the doctrine of hell - whatever hell is, we will see how it is worthy of the God in whom we believe.)

(The next day, the staff member smilingly said "Hey, I don't know what you told Sherry, but it really helped her!" I told him what I'd told her. "Great answer!" he said. "Of course, they ARE all going to hell." I knew then that I probably wasn't Crusade staff material.)

How do you make peace with the doctrine of exclusivity? Or perhaps it doesn't trouble you at all?

Hebrews 11 is lists examples of saving faith, so the fact that only way of salvation is through Jesus, then that is how they were saved in spite of having limited knowledge of his incarnation. In Hebrews 1:3, the Son is the exact image of God’s character, so saying that he is the only way to the Father is the same as saying that expressing God’s character traits in accordance with his example of obedience to God’s law is the only way to the Father. In embodying God’s word is not a different way to the Father than through believing in the one who is the embodiment of God’s word. God’s law is His way (Psalms 119:1-3), the truth (Psalms 119:142), and the life (Deuteronomy 32:46-47), and the way to see and know the Father (Exodus 33:13), and Jesus is the way, the truth, and the life, and the way to see and know the Father made flesh (John 14:6-7).

 

[Peterlag]

Fair enough.

But in your studies make certain to check into all translations and commentaries as to what is said or why it is not said in the written word of God and I will , for one, be following what you find out.

Now, the reason I say this about the translations can be illustrated in one of the most well known scriptures that have ever been debated as much as it has and that is Mark 16:16.

It is alleged that one of the oldest, if not the oldest New Testament translations that came into being was/is the Codex Sinaiticus.

When one is reading it there are certain verses that do not necessarily match up with what we might call a "modern day" one... even though our modern days may be several hundred years old.

In the Codex Sinaiticus , Mark 16:16 ends with the 8th verse.

Look at the following comparison. KJV vs CS (You can scroll to the end of each)

The Markan Resurrection
(Mark 16: 1–14)


King James Version
1 “And when the sabbath was past, Mary Magdalene, and Mary the mother of James, and Salome, had bought sweet spices, that they might come and anoint him.
2 And very early in the morning the first day of the week, they came unto the sepulchre at the rising of the sun.
3 And they said among themselves, Who shall roll us away the stone from the door of the sepulchre?
4 And when they looked, they saw that the stone was rolled away: for it was very great.
5 And entering into the sepulchre, they saw a young man sitting on the right side, clothed in a long white garment; and they were affrighted.
6 And he saith unto them, Be not affrighted: Ye seek Jesus of Nazareth, which was crucified: he is risen; he is not here: behold the place where they laid him.
7 But go your way, tell his disciples and Peter that he goeth before you into Galilee: there shall ye see him, as he said unto you.
8 And they went out quickly, and fled from the sepulchre; for they trembled and were amazed: neither said they any thing to any man; for they were afraid.
9 Now when Jesus was risen early the first day of the week, he appeared first to Mary Magdalene, out of whom he had cast seven devils.
10 And she went and told them that had been with him, as they mourned and wept.
11 And they, when they had heard that he was alive, and had been seen of her, believed not.
12 After that he appeared in another form unto two of them, as they walked, and went into the country.
13 And they went and told it unto the residue: neither believed they them.
14 Afterward he appeared unto the eleven as they sat at meat, and upbraided them with their unbelief and hardness of heart, because they believed not them which had seen him after he was risen.
15 And he said unto them, Go ye into all the world, and preach the gospel to every creature.
16 He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned.
17 And these signs shall follow them that believe; In my name shall they cast out devils; they shall speak with new tongues;
18 They shall take up serpents; and if they drink any deadly thing, it shall not hurt them; they shall lay hands on the sick, and they shall recover.
19 So then after the Lord had spoken unto them, he was received up into heaven, and sat on the right hand of God.
20 And they went forth, and preached every where, the Lord working with them, and confirming the word with signs following. Amen.
Codex Sinaiticus
1 “And when the sabbath was past, Mary Magdalene, and Mary the mother of James, and Salome, had bought sweet spices, that they might come and anoint him.
2 And very early in the morning the first day of the week, they came unto the sepulchre at the rising of the sun.
3 And they said among themselves, Who shall roll us away the stone from the door of the sepulchre?
4 And when they looked, they saw that the stone was rolled away: for it was very great.
5 And entering into the sepulchre, they saw a young man sitting on the right side, clothed in a long white garment; and they were affrighted.
6 And he saith unto them, Be not affrighted: Ye seek Jesus of Nazareth, which was crucified: he is risen; he is not here: behold the place where they laid him.
7 But go your way, tell his disciples and Peter that he goeth before you into Galilee: there shall ye see him, as he said unto you.
8 And they went out quickly, and fled from the sepulchre; for they trembled and were amazed: neither said they any thing to any man; for they were afraid.

​

I read all 8 verses. What am I looking for?