HOMOSEXUALITY REVISITED

[This Vale Of Tears]

any elected position.

Just found this article in Lapham's quarterly:

http://io9.com/gay-marriage-in-the-year-100-ad-951140108

I would not vote for a homosexual. Not ever.

 

[rockytopva]

Hey vale of tears... First of all I thank you for all your input here on CB. What do you think of the popes latest remark on homosexuality... IE... .Who am I to judge?

 

[Blue Lanai]

this topic has been debated here before but I felt that I needed to include this sceanario. some say that they support homosexuality, lesbianism and same sex unions. their reasoning is that it is a right and that there is nothing ethically, morally, spiritually or naturally WRONG with it. well, lets apply that same reasoning toward beastiality (or sexual interaction between different species) and incest. what applies to one should apply to the other. lets take natural into consideration. although technically an animal, we civilized humans are held at higher standards than other animals. although some despicaple acts are common in the uncivilized animal kingdom, sexual interactions among them exclude same sex. I view homosexuality and lesbianism to be in the same class with beastiality and incest and consider them to be not only ungodly, but unethical, disrespectful, immoral and unnatural.

What did Christ teach about homosexuality? -- Nothing.

So what did He teach? -- To love others unconditionally; that the greatest commandment is to love your neighbor as yourself. You don't have to approve of your neighbor, but you do have to love them and treat them with dignity. If you wish to hate others and spitefully use them, I will still call you my brother in Christ and still love you, even though we disagree completely on this subject.

I lived in San Francisco for 10 years and have many good friends who are gay & lesbian. I also have GBLT friends in both Europe and Asia. They are no different than we are: they have dreams, hopes, fears. The people I know are loving and want to have long-term relationships. They are not sexual deviants; they are not pedophiles. They're entirely normal human beings just as you and I are. I have seen God and Christ work in their lives and I know they are not strangers to His ways.

I hope that you will one day see that GBLT people are children of God, even as we are. I hope that you will carry love to them as Christ taught. It is by forgiving that we are forgiven.

 

[Dodo_David]

What did Christ teach about homosexuality? -- Nothing.

So what did He teach? -- To love others unconditionally; that the greatest commandment is to love your neighbor as yourself. You don't have to approve of your neighbor, but you do have to love them and treat them with dignity. If you wish to hate others and spitefully use them, I will still call you my brother in Christ and still love you, even though we disagree completely on this subject.

I lived in San Francisco for 10 years and have many good friends who are gay & lesbian. I also have GBLT friends in both Europe and Asia. They are no different than we are: they have dreams, hopes, fears. The people I know are loving and want to have long-term relationships. They are not sexual deviants; they are not pedophiles. They're entirely normal human beings just as you and I are. I have seen God and Christ work in their lives and I know they are not strangers to His ways.

I hope that you will one day see that GBLT people are children of God, even as we are. I hope that you will carry love to them as Christ taught. It is by forgiving that we are forgiven.

What did the Apostle Paul teach about sex between two people of the same gender? Answer: That God disapproves of such behavior.

When one tries to appease people who engage in such behavior, one has denied the teachings of the New Testament for the purpose of trying to serve two masters.

Notice that in my above statements, I place emphasis on the word behavior. I do so because behavior is chosen.
One may not choose how one feels, but one can choose how to respond to one's feelings.

I don't doubt that people with homosexual feelings can become Christians, but their feelings don't override the teachings of the Apostles.

 

[Blue Lanai]

[Note: I can't seem to get the multi-quote system to work for me, so I'm doing it this way.]

---
Dodo: "What did the Apostle Paul teach about sex between two people of the same gender? Answer: That God disapproves of such behavior:"
---

I trust Christ over Paul, personally. That's just me. What Paul said does not all jibe with what I have experienced in real life.

--
Dodo: "When one tries to appease people who engage in such behavior, one has denied the teachings of the New Testament for the purpose of trying to serve two masters.

Notice that in my above statements, I place emphasis on the word behavior. I do so because behavior is chosen.
One may not choose how one feels, but one can choose how to respond to one's feelings."
--


We'll have to disagree on that. I do not believe for a second that being gay is a "choice", and therefore acting on one's inherent sexual orientation cannot be sinful unless God is a cold, heartless, illogical being - which is opposite of what I have experienced in my life.

--
Dodo: "I don't doubt that people with homosexual feelings can become Christians, but their feelings don't override the teachings of the Apostles."
--

I reject Paul's teaching on this matter. I do not believe Paul was infailable in the way that Christ was; he was an imperfect human just as you and I are - and thus, capable of making mistakes.

 

[Dodo_David]

[Note: I can't seem to get the multi-quote system to work for me, so I'm doing it this way.]

---
Dodo: "What did the Apostle Paul teach about sex between two people of the same gender? Answer: That God disapproves of such behavior:"
---

I trust Christ over Paul, personally. That's just me. What Paul said does not all jibe with what I have experienced in real life.

--
Dodo: "When one tries to appease people who engage in such behavior, one has denied the teachings of the New Testament for the purpose of trying to serve two masters.

Notice that in my above statements, I place emphasis on the word behavior. I do so because behavior is chosen.
One may not choose how one feels, but one can choose how to respond to one's feelings."
--


We'll have to disagree on that. I do not believe for a second that being gay is a "choice", and therefore acting on one's inherent sexual orientation cannot be sinful unless God is a cold, heartless, illogical being - which is opposite of what I have experienced in my life.

--
Dodo: "I don't doubt that people with homosexual feelings can become Christians, but their feelings don't override the teachings of the Apostles."
--

I reject Paul's teaching on this matter. I do not believe Paul was infailable in the way that Christ was; he was an imperfect human just as you and I are - and thus, capable of making mistakes.

Blue Lanai,

It appears to me that you are interpreting the Bible according to your experiences instead of interpreting your experiences according to the Bible.

In doing so, you have made your experiences the ultimate authority on orthodoxy.

 

[aspen]

I don't have a problem with a homosexual being elected President of the United States, Governor of a State, or Congressman. In fact, on my island, we have a gay person elected as a Senator.

As to John Boswell's book, he misinterpret the rite of Adelphopoisis (a practice done mainly in the Eastern Orthodox Church) as same sex marriage when it is actually a rite between kinship of brotherly adoption. See the weblink below written by an Orthodox priest:

http://www.newoxfordreview.org/reviews.jsp?did=1294-viscuso

[/size]

Yeah, I agree with everything you wrote.

 

[Blue Lanai]

--
Dodo: "It appears to me that you are interpreting the Bible according to your experiences instead of interpreting your experiences according to the Bible."
--

Yes, that is correct. What has more value: That which I have experienced or that which I have been told? For me, it is experience that is the real teacher in life and the real test of Chrisitianity. I refuse to have actual real life experiences dismissed on the basis of what a ordinary man said over 2000 year ago. Paul was not Christ; he was Paul. I don't believe Paul was infailable (a point I notice you glossed over). I don't personally believe the Scripture is inerrant as most of it was composed by humans.


--
Dodo: "In doing so, you have made your experiences the ultimate authority on orthodoxy."
--

Ad Hominem Fallacy.

 

[Dodo_David]

--
Dodo: "It appears to me that you are interpreting the Bible according to your experiences instead of interpreting your experiences according to the Bible."
--

Yes, that is correct. What has more value: That which I have experienced or that which I have been told? For me, it is experience that is the real teacher in life and the real test of Chrisitianity. I refuse to have actual real life experiences dismissed on the basis of what a ordinary man said over 2000 year ago. Paul was not Christ; he was Paul. I don't believe Paul was infailable (a point I notice you glossed over). I don't personally believe the Scripture is inerrant as most of it was composed by humans.


--
Dodo: "In doing so, you have made your experiences the ultimate authority on orthodoxy."
--

Ad Hominem Fallacy.

So, Blue Lanai, are you saying that you can pick and choose which parts of the New Testament to believe in order for the New Testament to match your experiences?

By the way, I know what the ad hominem fallacy is, and I did not use it.

 

[Blue Lanai]

--
Dodo: "So, Blue Lanai, are you saying that you can pick and choose which parts of the New Testament to believe in order for the New Testament to match your experiences?"
--

This is the second time in the same thread in which you have glossed over what I said, and asked a brand new question instead of replying directly to my words. Therefore, I am blocking you. I am here to have a discussion; not to play debate-games with people.

From now on, if you reply to my posts, I will not see your replies.

May God guide us both. The best to you in your life. Goodbye.

 

[rockytopva]

I have one word for homosexuality....


Sick!

 

[Dodo_David]

--
Dodo: "So, Blue Lanai, are you saying that you can pick and choose which parts of the New Testament to believe in order for the New Testament to match your experiences?"
--

This is the second time in the same thread in which you have glossed over what I said, and asked a brand new question instead of replying directly to my words. Therefore, I am blocking you. I am here to have a discussion; not to play debate-games with people.

From now on, if you reply to my posts, I will not see your replies.

May God guide us both. The best to you in your life. Goodbye.

Uh, did someone just take his ball and go home?

 

[marksman]

any elected position.

Just found this article in Lapham's quarterly:

http://io9.com/gay-marriage-in-the-year-100-ad-951140108

Very interesting. First John Boswell was a brilliant man and homosexual. He died of AIDS at the age of 47 (So much for the claim that homosexuality does not affect you adversely).

He received two awards for his book from homosexual organisations.

Whilst he was a devout Catholic, he opposed the church's teaching on homosexuality.

He was the founder of the lesbian and homosexual study centre.

One could say that he was not an unbiased observer so his book is to be read in that light and to be honest, with caution.

Not only that if you are going to take his word for the church approving of homosexuality you have to take his word that you are not born homosexual as he said...

"All or most humans are polymorphously sexual ... external accidents, such as socio-cultural pressure, legal sanctions, religious beliefs, historical or personal circumstances determine the actual expression of each person's sexual feelings."

​In other words, you are not born homosexual. I have a feeling that the homosexual militants and their supporters will conveniently ignore that claim.

 

[Dodo_David]

What I find remarkable is that, regarding the issue of sex between two people of the same gender, someone on this site boldly proclaimed, "I reject Paul's teaching on this matter."

 

[Selene]

What I find remarkable is that, regarding the issue of sex between two people of the same gender, someone on this site boldly proclaimed, "I reject Paul's teaching on this matter."

Hey....I've even met people who tell me that the word "homosexuality" doesn't exist in the Bible......which is true considering that the word is a modern word. Nevertheless, it's what the Book of Leviticus and St. Paul was saying. Homosexuality is a sin. Perhaps, they didn't call it "homosexuality" during that time, but the behavior is the same.

 

[marksman]

What did Christ teach about homosexuality? -- Nothing.

Wrong. if you look at Matthew 19:4 he made his position very clear.

Matthew 19:4 And He answered and said to them, Have you not read that He who made them at the beginning "made them male and female", and said, For this cause a man shall leave father and mother and shall cling to his wife, and the two of them shall be one flesh? Therefore they are no longer two, but one flesh. Therefore what God has joined together, let not man separate.

​This was reiterating what His father said in Genesis 2:24....

Genesis 2:23 And Adam said, This is now bone of my bones and flesh of my flesh. She shall be called Woman because she was taken out of man. Therefore shall a man leave his father and his mother, and shall cleave to his wife and they shall be one flesh.

The first point is the fact that Jesus reiterated what His Father said shows that nothing has changed and two, God and Jesus had all the time in the world to affirm homosexual relationships but they didn't. They made it clear marriage was all about a man and his wife.

I lived in San Francisco for 10 years and have many good friends who are gay & lesbian. I also have GBLT friends in both Europe and Asia. They are no different than we are: they have dreams, hopes, fears. The people I know are loving and want to have long-term relationships. They are not sexual deviants; they are not pedophiles. They're entirely normal human beings just as you and I are. I have seen God and Christ work in their lives and I know they are not strangers to His ways.

I cannot comment on your particular experience as I don't know you. All I can do is tell you what I know is the truth.

It is dangerous to base one's finding on one's own personal experience when dealing with such a wide ranging subject.

For instance. You said the people I know (how many is that) want to have long term relationships.

The facts are that most homosexuals are not interested in long term relationships. On average only 2% of homosexuals want to marry. In addition the average length of a homosexual relationship is two years. In those relationships monogamy is not welcome. Sex on the side is a regular occurrence. These facts have been gained through research carried out over a number of years, some of which has been done by homosexuals themselves.

You say they are not sexual deviants or paedophiles. Your friends may not be but there are many homosexuals that ARE sexual deviants and paedophiles.

You say they are entirely normal. When you have studied them up close as I have you find that they are far from normal. All those that I have known and counselled and read about have all been far from normal as they all have an emotional dysfunction brought about by rejection.

In this respect I would like to ask you "Do you consider it normal for a man to allow another man to insert his fist and arm into his rectum" which is what some of them do.

I hope that you will one day see that GBLT people are children of God, even as we are. I hope that you will carry love to them as Christ taught. It is by forgiving that we are forgiven.

A generalisation that is not sustainable and an unfortunate label. Taken this to a logical conclusion one could say I hope that one day you will see that paedophiles, murderers, child abusers, adulterers, pornographers, blasphemers etc. etc. are children of God.

The truth is, no one is a child of God unless they have repented of their sin, acknowledged the Lordship of Jesus Christ in their lives and obey his commandments.

Unless they have done this, no one is a child of God.

I trust Christ over Paul, personally. That's just me. What Paul said does not all jibe with what I have experienced in real life.

I reject Paul's teaching on this matter. I do not believe Paul was infailable in the way that Christ was; he was an imperfect human just as you and I are - and thus, capable of making mistakes.

What you accept or reject is not important. What is important is that the Word of God says that ALL scripture is given by inspiration of God............

And please note it says ALL. Not some or pick and choose the bits you like or don't like, but ALL and ALL means everything, including what Paul wrote.

I refuse to have actual real life experiences dismissed on the basis of what a ordinary man said over 2000 year ago. Paul was not Christ; he was Paul. I don't believe Paul was infailable (a point I notice you glossed over). I don't personally believe the Scripture is inerrant as most of it was composed by humans.

2 Corinthians 11:23-28 Are they the Messiah's servants? I am insane to talk like this, but I am a far better one! I have been involved in far greater efforts, far more imprisonments, countless beatings, and have faced death more than once. Five times I received from the Jews 40 lashes minus one. Three times I was beaten with a stick, once I was pelted with stones, three times I was shipwrecked, and I drifted on the sea for a day and a night. I have traveled extensively and have been endangered from rivers, robbers, my own people, and gentiles. I've also been in danger in the city, in the open country, at sea, from false brothers, in toil and hardship, through many a sleepless night, through hunger, thirst, many periods of fasting, coldness, and nakedness. Besides everything else, I have a daily burden because of my anxiety about all the churches.

On the basis of these few verses, I would say that Paul was far from ordinary.

2 Corinthians 11:30 If I must boast, I will boast about the things that show how weak I am. The God and Father of the Lord Jesus, who is blessed forever, knows that I am not lying.

These verses suggest that Paul did not claim infallibility.

2 Timothy 3:16 Every Scripture is inspired by God and is useful for teaching, for convincing, for correction of error, and for instruction in right doing;

This verse show quite clearly that ALL scripture originates from God, so none of it originates from humans. To say otherwise is to say that God is a liar.

 

[Selene]

-

I trust Christ over Paul, personally. That's just me. What Paul said does not all jibe with what I have experienced in real life.


I reject Paul's teaching on this matter. I do not believe Paul was infailable in the way that Christ was; he was an imperfect human just as you and I are - and thus, capable of making mistakes.

The thing is.......the Gospels of Matthew, Mark, Luke, and John were all written by men. Christ never wrote anything. Men wrote the entire Bible and the Bible teaches that homosexuality is a sin. If you don't believe that the Bible is the inerrant word of God, then what book are you placing your belief on......because Christ never wrote a book. God used men to write His words.

 

[marksman]

We'll have to disagree on that. I do not believe for a second that being gay is a "choice", and therefore acting on one's inherent sexual orientation cannot be sinful unless God is a cold, heartless, illogical being - which is opposite of what I have experienced in my life.

Ah! I wish we could relegate all research down to one's own experience. I believe this; I believe that; I experienced this; I experienced that is much simpler than having to read book after book after book and question thousands of people here, there and everywhere and then compile all the data and make sense of it and then to write up your findings and then present it for peer review.

Unfortunately things don't work that way. That is if you want any credibility. Just imagine if I presented papers for my degrees that said "My experience is...so it must be right" or "I don't believe....so the other is wrong." If i did that, I would not have three university and one theological degree.

like so many others you get the cart before the horse. Just because you believe that being homosexual is not a choice means nothing. A lot of people believe lots of things and look where it has got them. For example. The atheists hailed the Piltdown Man, a skull found in East Sussex in the UK as the missing link that proved humans arrived from monkeys. They trumpeted this for 50 years and then, lo and behold, they said sorry, it was the skull of a pig.

The inventors of the "born that way" theory invented it because they knew that they were not born that way. I went to their conference and heard them say it. They invented it as they said to be able to make their claims a civil rights issue. They said if people knew what we did in the bedroom they would be horrified so we have to deflect their thinking away from that.

Apart from the FACT that ALL sexual activity is a choice. I can have a predisposition towards women but never have sex with one all my life. If I choose not to marry, I can choose to play the field, or not. No one can make me have sex with anyone, unless it is rape or child molestation.

That fact that I have sex with a man, woman or child is a choice I make. In most cases outside of marriage is is driven by lust. You can't blame anyone else for that.

 

[Blue Lanai]

@Marksman:

M: "Wrong. if you look at Matthew 19:4 he made his position very clear.

Matthew 19:4 And He answered and said to them, Have you not read that He who made them at the beginning "made them male and female", and said, For this cause a man shall leave father and mother and shall cling to his wife, and the two of them shall be one flesh? Therefore they are no longer two, but one flesh. Therefore what God has joined together, let not man separate."

That says nothing whatsoever about homosexuality; you are making an extrapolation.


M: "...All I can do is tell you what I know is the truth."

And that is what I am doing as well: you're presenting your truth, and I am presenting mine.

M: "It is dangerous to base one's finding on one's own personal experience when dealing with such a wide ranging subject."

I disagree. For example, when I was younger, I was told by many that people of other faiths "hated God" and were "evil". Back in the early 90's, I went skiing and on the way there, my car skidded and went off the road into a ditch. Another car, behind me, instantly pulled over and a Indian (not Native American) family rushed to my car to help me. It was 11pm and there was no way to get my car out at the time; there were also no hotels nearby, so they took me took me to their house, fed me, and gave me a bed for the night. They were also Hindus: their cabin was filled with Hindu religious images and statues. In the morning, they asked if they could pray with me. I agreed and they offered a prayer to Bramha thanking him for allowing them to help me, and asked him to bless me. -- I was certainly no Hindu!-- But yet, here were people who were loving and kind and compassionate to me. Thus, I had re-evaluate my beliefs about people of other faiths "hating God" and being "evil" as I was taught in the Christian church.

I can think of a hundred more examples in which I was taught a Christian belief and it turned out to be completely false. Now, if you want to accept things blindly, that is of course up to you, but I have learned that most people - reguardless of their faith or sexual orientation - are basically good people who strive to be altruistic. Regarding the Hindu family who literally saved my life (because I could've frozen to death), I believe now that Christ was working through them even if they didn't know it.

M: "The facts are that most homosexuals are not interested in long term relationships. On average only 2% of homosexuals want to marry. In addition the average length of a homosexual relationship is two years."

Please cite your source for this claim. Otherwise it is empty.

M: "You say they are not sexual deviants or paedophiles. Your friends may not be but there are many homosexuals that ARE sexual deviants and paedophiles."

I'm sure there are. And there are also just as many, if not more, heterosexuals who are sexual deviants. In addition, there are no gay mass-muderers, but there are tons of heterosexual mass murderers. So -- using your argument -- we may conclude that heterosexuals are more inclined to commit mass murder than homosexuals. Do you feel that is valid?

M: "You say they are entirely normal. When you have studied them up close as I have you find that they are far from normal."

You are quite wrong; these are people I've known for over 10 years. I've met their families, been to their weddings, taken vacations with them, worked with them on projects, etc, etc. But you claim that you know these people, somehow, better than I do. There is no way you can validate your own argument.

M: "All those that I have known and counselled and read about have all been far from normal as they all have an emotional dysfunction brought about by rejection."

Obviously, we have very different experiences. What you are saying is completely alien to me.

M: "What you accept or reject is not important."

Wow. How rude. :lol:

M: "What is important is that the Word of God says that ALL scripture is given by inspiration of God............"

The Bible says many things and not all Christians believe them equally or in the same way; the fragmented Church should make that point abundantly clear to you. I respect that you (and many) feel that the Bible is inerrant. But I do not and telling me, essentially, "Well, you're just wrong" is in no way an effective means of changing my mind.

M: "And please note it says ALL. Not some or pick and choose the bits you like or don't like, but ALL and ALL means everything, including what Paul wrote."

I support you in believing that; I do not.

In my experience, faith and belief come gradually. It took me over 25 years to know God, and it took me another 7 years to know Christ. If I subscribed to your "all or nothing" philosophy, I would never have know either of them. If you are open to feedback, I would suggest you have some patience and compassion for your fellow humans.

 

[aspen]

the ironic thing is - christianity leads to empathy and unconditional love........it sure takes awhile take hold.