Homosexuality: Wrong or Right?

[Arthur81]

Even if you are correct this is not an endorsement of homosexuality. Just because David did something doesn’t mean that God approved.

First off RLT, I appreciate your response. Second, if I ever used the word "homosexuality" in my posts, which I doubt; I'd want to refresh my memory in what context I used the word. To give definition as to what I am talking about, I go to an English dictionary:

The definition of "homosexuality" in the Merriam-Webster is pretty well standard in today's English, and it has two meanings:
1 - sexual or romantic attraction to others of one's same sex
2 - sexual activity with another of the same sex [the only clear reference in the Bible is to male to male sexual conduct]
Also in the M-W "The first known use of homosexuality was in 1892"

My view of this subject is pretty much as the Bible Dictionary of the IVP, 3rd Edition in 1996 -
"The Bible says nothing specifically about the homosexual condition (despite the rather misleading RSV [1st Ed]translation of 1 Cor. 6:9), but its condemnations of homosexual conduct are explicit. The scope of these strictures must, however, be carefully determined. Too often they have been used as tools of a homophobic polemic which has claimed too much."

We MUST examine what "homosexual conduct" is being condemned. I'm using the word "homosexual" in that manner as an adjective, merely stating it is same-sex. I am repulsed as any Christian is, by the debauchery and disgusting sexual displays by the LGBTQ community; but I am equally disgusted by the debauchery of the heterosexual conduct in places like the New Orleans' Mardi Gras.

I DO NOT "endorse" anything like the LGBTQ as in their Pride Parades, same-sex marriage, etc. I object to the 'liberal' views on gay life, and I also object the 'conservative' views as being too much, homophobic. A church of any size is likely to have born again, believing men who are solely or predominantly attracted to other men. The conservative churches too often are giving such men little comfort in their Christian walk. They are told they must live in total sexual abstinence; or, they must go the faith healing farce of being 'cured' or going through the failed psychobabble approach that tries to mix psychotherapy with theology. I do not see in the Bible anywhere, that condemns a male having a relationship with another male that includes sexual expression. Just as with the 'straight' male, the 'gay' male must be private and discreet with much of his romantic/sex life, and probably must be much more careful or discreet.

The love of David and Jonathan is spoken of in only approving or glowing terms. If the erotic element in it was sinful, it is nowhere condemned as David was hit with judgment over Bathsheba:

2 Samuel chapter 12: Nathan the prophet was sent by the LORD to expose David's sin in a manner in which David convicts himself.

The punishments:
"Now therefore the sword shall never depart from your house, for you have despised me, and have taken the wife of Uriah the Hittite to be your wife. Thus says the LORD: I will raise up trouble against you from within your own house; and I will take your wives before your eyes, and give them to your neighbor, and he shall lie with your wives in the sight of this very sun. For you did it secretly; but I will do this thing before all Israel, and before the sun.” David said to Nathan, “I have sinned against the LORD.” Nathan said to David, “Now the LORD has put away your sin; you shall not die. Nevertheless, because by this deed you have utterly scorned the LORD, the child that is born to you shall die.” (2Sam 12:10-14 NRSV)

Psalm 51 is David's speaking of his remorse over his sin - "To the leader. A Psalm of David, when the prophet Nathan came to him, after he had gone in to Bathsheba."

When God said it was not good that man be alone, that was not only for 'straight' men. Even in our fallen, imperfect world, it is still not good that man be alone. When the church insists on total sexual abstinence for a 'gay' man, it contradicts Paul's statement about such abstinence is a "gift" that not all men have -

"I wish that all were as I myself am. But each has a particular gift from God, one having one kind and another a different kind. To the unmarried and the widows I say that it is well for them to remain unmarried as I am. But if they are not practicing self-control, they should marry. For it is better to marry than to be aflame with passion." (1Cor 7:7-9 NRSV)

This is an extremely complicated topic, and made more so by all the different voices from many directions on the matter. Even what I've written here is going to be misunderstood, but that is just how things go in written conversations. It takes time to truly understand exactly what the other person is thinking in detail, without 'reading into' their words more than what is stated. But, I'm trying to respond to your very legitimate comments.

 

[Arthur81]

Prov 18:25​

""""A man that hath friends must shew himself friendly: and there is a FRIEND that sticketh closer than a brother."""​

= Johnathan and David

It is interesting how a literal translation renders that verse:
Pro 18:24 LITV "A man of friends may be broken up, but there is a Lover who sticks closer than a brother."

 

[RLT63]

First off RLT, I appreciate your response. Second, if I ever used the word "homosexuality" in my posts, which I doubt; I'd want to refresh my memory in what context I used the word. To give definition as to what I am talking about, I go to an English dictionary:

The definition of "homosexuality" in the Merriam-Webster is pretty well standard in today's English, and it has two meanings:
1 - sexual or romantic attraction to others of one's same sex
2 - sexual activity with another of the same sex [the only clear reference in the Bible is to male to male sexual conduct]
Also in the M-W "The first known use of homosexuality was in 1892"

My view of this subject is pretty much as the Bible Dictionary of the IVP, 3rd Edition in 1996 -
"The Bible says nothing specifically about the homosexual condition (despite the rather misleading RSV [1st Ed]translation of 1 Cor. 6:9), but its condemnations of homosexual conduct are explicit. The scope of these strictures must, however, be carefully determined. Too often they have been used as tools of a homophobic polemic which has claimed too much."

We MUST examine what "homosexual conduct" is being condemned. I'm using the word "homosexual" in that manner as an adjective, merely stating it is same-sex. I am repulsed as any Christian is, by the debauchery and disgusting sexual displays by the LGBTQ community; but I am equally disgusted by the debauchery of the heterosexual conduct in places like the New Orleans' Mardi Gras.

I DO NOT "endorse" anything like the LGBTQ as in their Pride Parades, same-sex marriage, etc. I object to the 'liberal' views on gay life, and I also object the 'conservative' views as being too much, homophobic. A church of any size is likely to have born again, believing men who are solely or predominantly attracted to other men. The conservative churches too often are giving such men little comfort in their Christian walk. They are told they must live in total sexual abstinence; or, they must go the faith healing farce of being 'cured' or going through the failed psychobabble approach that tries to mix psychotherapy with theology. I do not see in the Bible anywhere, that condemns a male having a relationship with another male that includes sexual expression. Just as with the 'straight' male, the 'gay' male must be private and discreet with much of his romantic/sex life, and probably must be much more careful or discreet.

The love of David and Jonathan is spoken of in only approving or glowing terms. If the erotic element in it was sinful, it is nowhere condemned as David was hit with judgment over Bathsheba:

2 Samuel chapter 12: Nathan the prophet was sent by the LORD to expose David's sin in a manner in which David convicts himself.

The punishments:
"Now therefore the sword shall never depart from your house, for you have despised me, and have taken the wife of Uriah the Hittite to be your wife. Thus says the LORD: I will raise up trouble against you from within your own house; and I will take your wives before your eyes, and give them to your neighbor, and he shall lie with your wives in the sight of this very sun. For you did it secretly; but I will do this thing before all Israel, and before the sun.” David said to Nathan, “I have sinned against the LORD.” Nathan said to David, “Now the LORD has put away your sin; you shall not die. Nevertheless, because by this deed you have utterly scorned the LORD, the child that is born to you shall die.” (2Sam 12:10-14 NRSV)

Psalm 51 is David's speaking of his remorse over his sin - "To the leader. A Psalm of David, when the prophet Nathan came to him, after he had gone in to Bathsheba."

When God said it was not good that man be alone, that was not only for 'straight' men. Even in our fallen, imperfect world, it is still not good that man be alone. When the church insists on total sexual abstinence for a 'gay' man, it contradicts Paul's statement about such abstinence is a "gift" that not all men have -

"I wish that all were as I myself am. But each has a particular gift from God, one having one kind and another a different kind. To the unmarried and the widows I say that it is well for them to remain unmarried as I am. But if they are not practicing self-control, they should marry. For it is better to marry than to be aflame with passion." (1Cor 7:7-9 NRSV)

This is an extremely complicated topic, and made more so by all the different voices from many directions on the matter. Even what I've written here is going to be misunderstood, but that is just how things go in written conversations. It takes time to truly understand exactly what the other person is thinking in detail, without 'reading into' their words more than what is stated. But, I'm trying to respond to your very legitimate comments.

I appreciate your honesty and respect your right to have your opinion. I agree with you somewhat and I don’t think homosexual men and women should be mistreated, maligned or discriminated against. But in the Church setting they would have to stay abstinent to be in obedience to the Word. I don’t think accepting their lifestyle and openly embracing homosexuality within Christianity is biblical.
We should love them enough to tell them the truth.
I work with people who are gay but they’re good at their jobs and I back them up but have never had any conversations about their sexuality. They are familiar with the Bible and are believers but I still believe that a practicing homosexual is living in sin.

 

[The Learner]

You are using the shallow and misleading approach I've read called "spoof texting", because you don't understand any of the verses you give. You are doing what most gay-hating Bible thumpers do, sidestep the examination of each single verse in order to arrive at your bigoted conclusion. Your superficial approach to the word of God is the same used by the Jehovah's Witnesses as they deny the Deity of Jesus the Christ. You apparently cannot refute my remarks on 2 Sam. 1:26 so you merely bring up other passages.

I'll add one personal guide I use for myself in the study of God's word. I believe in holding myself to the 2 or 3 witnesses requirement:

"But if you are not listened to, take one or two others along with you, so that every word may be confirmed by the evidence of two or three witnesses." (Matt 18:16 NRSV)

When I read where someone seriously responds to my conclusion on 2 Sam. 1:26, I'll add 2 other 'witnesses' to satisfy myself on the truth conveyed on this matter. To support my belief on a topic, I use at least 2 or 3 verses or passages as solid proof texts as I give a serious examination of each verse. I have the 3 scripture witnesses to my belief that the love of Jonathan and David included some element of sexual desire whether acted upon or not. If someone can give some scholarly rebuttal to my claim on 2 Sam. 1:26, I'll give the other two.

I readily confess, it is by being challenged that I learn the scriptures in more depth. "Iron sharpens iron, and one person sharpens the wits of another." (Prov 27:17 NRSV) I learn something everyday so I've surely not arrived!

"Jonathan said to David, "Go in peace, for we have sworn friendship with each other in the name of the LORD, saying, `The LORD is witness between you and me, and between your descendants and my descendants forever.'" Then David left, and Jonathan went back to the town" the freindship does not realte to sex.

 

[The Learner]

Proverbs 18:24

Easy-to-Read Version

​

24 Some friends are fun to be with, but a true friend can be better than a brother.

No Hebrew Manuscript has the word lover.

PROVERBS 18:24
KJ21
A man that hath friends must show himself friendly, and there is a friend that sticketh closer than a brother.
ASV
He that maketh many friends doeth it to his own destruction; But there is a friend that sticketh closer than a brother.
AMP
The man of too many friends [chosen indiscriminately] will be broken in pieces and come to ruin, But there is a [true, loving] friend who [is reliable and] sticks closer than a brother.
AMPC
The man of many friends [a friend of all the world] will prove himself a bad friend, but there is a friend who sticks closer than a brother.
BRG
A man that hath friends must shew himself friendly: and there is a friend that sticketh closer than a brother.
CSB
One with many friends may be harmed, but there is a friend who stays closer than a brother.
CEB
There are persons for companionship, but then there are friends who are more loyal than family.
CJB
Some “friends” pretend to be friends, but a true friend sticks closer than a brother.
CEV
Some friends don't help, but a true friend is closer than your own family.
DARBY
A man of [many] friends will come to ruin but there is a friend [that] sticketh closer than a brother.
DRA
A man amiable in society, shall be more friendly than a brother.
ERV
Some friends are fun to be with, but a true friend can be better than a brother.
YLT
A man with friends [is] to show himself friendly, And there is a lover adhering more than a brother!

 

[The Learner]

I appreciate your honesty and respect your right to have your opinion. I agree with you somewhat and I don’t think homosexual men and women should be mistreated, maligned or discriminated against. But in the Church setting they would have to stay abstinent to be in obedience to the Word. I don’t think accepting their lifestyle and openly embracing homosexuality within Christianity is biblical.
We should love them enough to tell them the truth.
I work with people who are gay but they’re good at their jobs and I back them up but have never had any conversations about their sexuality. They are familiar with the Bible and are believers but I still believe that a practicing homosexual is living in sin.

Green's Literal Translation 1993 Textus Receptus Bibles

Green's Literal Translation 1993

textusreceptusbibles.com

 

[Jethro2]

This is an extremely complicated topic, and made more so by all the different voices from many directions on the matter.

Nah. God made all things simple.
Sinful men came up with many devices.
Let the world follow all the voices they choose.

There is only one to follow to be able at all to enter heaven, ever, as God Says, if God Permits.

 

[GracePeace]

I object to the 'liberal' views on gay life, and I also object the 'conservative' views as being too much, homophobic.is thinking in detail, without 'reading into' their words more than what is stated.

"Thou shalt not be homophobic"--nothing the God of Israel ever said.
You are serving another god, with completely foreign commandments.

 

[Adrift]

A phobia is an anxiety disorder involving excessive and persistent fear of a situation or object. Exposure to the source of the fear triggers an immediate anxiety response. Most people who consider themselves homophobes are probably not. They just detest homosexual lifestyles. Antipathy is a loathing or detest for something. I have antipathy for all forms of perversion because I loathe them and they are an abomination. While I detest the lifestyle and activities, it is complicated by the fact that I also see it as a mental illness. Christians should be vocal in their admonitions of the LGBTQ community for constantly twisting and manipulating scriptural truth to fit their disgusting and perverse agenda.

 

[St. SteVen]

A phobia is an anxiety disorder involving excessive and persistent fear of a situation or object. Exposure to the source of the fear triggers an immediate anxiety response. Most people who consider themselves homophobes are probably not. They just detest homosexual lifestyles. Antipathy is a loathing or detest for something. I have antipathy for all forms of perversion because I loathe them and they are an abomination. While I detest the lifestyle and activities, it is complicated by the fact that I also see it as a mental illness. Christians should be vocal in their admonitions of the LGBTQ community for constantly twisting and manipulating scriptural truth to fit their disgusting and perverse agenda.

That's a good clarification about homophobia.
Have you seen this thread?

WWJD with LGBTQ?

/

 

[Arthur81]

A world where each individual, having no authority or legitimacy to define words, does so, that is a world of PURE NONSENSE

For those trying to define "homophobia" strictly by one of the words in the compound word, that is incorrect grammar:

"Compound words have their own distinct meanings that are different from the meanings of the words they’re made of. For example, the compound word grandparent is made from the individual words grand and parent. While grandparents are similar to parents, they’re not the same—and not all grandparents are grand, either!"

Compound Words: Open, Closed, or Hyphenated?

Compound words are when two or more words combine to form a new single word or a phrase that acts like a single word. There…

www.grammarly.com

Oxford English Dictionary:
"homophobia, n2. Hostility towards, prejudice against, or (less commonly) fear of homosexual people or homosexuality."

Cambridge English Dictionary:
"homophobia ... harmful or unfair things a person does based on a fear or dislike of gay people or queer people (= people who do not fit a society’s traditional ideas about gender or sexuality):"
also
"policies, behaviours, rules, etc. that result in a continued unfair advantage to straight people (= men who are attracted to women and women who are attracted to men) and unfair or harmful treatment of gay people or queer people (= people who do not fit a society’s traditional ideas about gender or sexuality):"

Merriam-Webster
"homophobia: irrational fear of, aversion to, or discrimination against homosexuality or gay people"

American Heritage English Dictionary
"homophobia...Fear of or contempt for lesbians and gay men. [HOMO(SEXUAL) + PHOBIA]"
" - phobia.. An intense fear of or aversion to a specified thing: xenophobia."

The National Library of Medicine
"Homophobia is defined as a range of behaviours, feelings, negative attitudes towards sexual variations and people identified or perceived as LGBTQI (Renzetti and Edleson, 2008). The origin of the term is traced back to Weinberg, a Jewish-American psychologist of the 1960s (Grimes, 2017), and refers to a composite term deriving from the words homo-sexuality and phobia, which is a Greek term (φόβος) meaning ‘fear’ or ‘aversion’ or ‘dread’. This term has appeared in the printed media in the following years: homophobic panic on Time (US) magazine in 1969, homophobia on The Times (London, UK) in 1981 until it became of common use globally (Longley, 1981). In 1972, Weinberg published his book entitled Society and the Healthy Homosexual with a broader analysis on homophobia and its consequences on health. It is of interest that one year later, in 1973, the category homosexuality has been removed from the upcoming version of Diagnostic and Statistical Manual of Mental Disorders (DSM-III edition; 1980): the task force coordinated by Professor Robert Spitzer reformulated the concept of homosexuality and sexual orientation disturbance proposing the differentiation between the normal sexual variant from other same-sex attractions characterised by experienced distress or psychological disturbance."

Homophobia and mental health: a scourge of modern era

Homophobia is still a scourge in the modern era. Despite a greater acceptance of sexual variations and same-sex marriage in many countries, homophobia is widely sustained by religious, political and cultural values and beliefs at individual and social ...

www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

NOTICE: I emphasized with bold and underline the classification of "homosexuality" and it is NOT considered a Mental Disorder. The word "homosexuality" is a psychological and psychiatric concept: NOT a theological designation, therefore the specialists who deal with this are who have the legitimacy to define homosexuality and determine if it is a "Mental Disorder".

 

[Arthur81]

"Thou shalt not be homophobic"--nothing the God of Israel ever said.
You are serving another god, with completely foreign commandments.

Neither did God say:
"Thou shall not be homosexual"

 

[Frosty]

Jesus said homosexuals will not enter Heaven. But maybe we can pull some out of the fire!

Do you have a scripture that proves your statement?

 

[JohnDB]

Just for the record....
God is Jesus and Jesus is God.

Homosexuality of course is wrong and called an abomination.

Not a debatable subject...
It's an absolute...no fancy arguments, no explanations, and no appeal. It's wrong and a lifestyle that is worshipping yourself more importantly than God...which is a CLEAR VIOLATION of every Covenant.

 

[Frosty]

Jesus said homosexuals will not enter the Kingdom of Heaven. That clearly means they will go to Hell.

Kingdom of heaven is one of many names that refer to Christ's church.(Matt 11:12) eternal heaven does not suffer violence. Many of the disobedient children of God will be denied membership in the church, but they still have the promise of an eternal inheritance

 

[Frosty]

Because of the faith Jesus had to his father, his payment for sin was accepted for all people. The heart of an individual may pray to Yahava every day though they may make their own decisions, you’ll never know that relationship that they have.

John 6:37-39 Jesus's sacrifice was made to God, for God's acceptance, not to mankind for their acceptance, furthermore, Jesus did not die for all mankind, only for those that his Father gave him.

 

[RLT63]

Neither did God say:
"Thou shall not be homosexual"

He didn’t say “Thou shalt not be a pedophile “ but no one thinks he approves of it

 

[Jack]

Do you have a scripture that proves your statement?

I Cor 6!

 

[Jack]

Kingdom of heaven is one of many names that refer to Christ's church.(Matt 11:12) eternal heaven does not suffer violence. Many of the disobedient children of God will be denied membership in the church, but they still have the promise of an eternal inheritance

And that's your unBiblical opinion.

 

[St. SteVen]

Just for the record....
God is Jesus and Jesus is God.

Homosexuality of course is wrong and called an abomination.

Not a debatable subject...
It's an absolute...no fancy arguments, no explanations, and no appeal. It's wrong and a lifestyle that is worshipping yourself more importantly than God...which is a CLEAR VIOLATION of every Covenant.

Do you agree with everything in Leviticus chapter 18 and 20?
- Death penalty for sexual misconduct.
- Polygamy, except in the case of marrying your wife's sister and a rival wife.

/