Homosexuality
- Thread starter th1b.taylor
- Start date
-
Welcome to Christian Forums, a Christian Forum that recognizes that all Christians are a work in progress.
You will need to register to be able to join in fellowship with Christians all over the world.
We hope to see you as a part of our community soon and God Bless!
- Status
David is forgiven because he repented of his sin. Of course God loved David, He loves all of us. But if we do not repent of our sins, we will not be forgiven them. It's that simple. We cannot say..."I am unable to help myself from committing this sin, it's in my nature, therefore it's okay to continue in it"... and still expect to be forgiven, for God to grant us His grace. Will He still love us? Of course, that is the amazing love of God. But for us to say that Jesus died for ALL my sins, but not fight against those sins within our lives, is to disrespect that very sacrifice. Our sins will only be 'overlooked' if we are covered by Christ's blood. And to be covered by that blood we need to repent and believe. To continue blithely on in the same behaviour is not true repentance. If a killer said 'sorry' after every kill, but kept on killing, do we really believe he is sincere? Of course not. A person who claims they are born again, but continues on in a sinful behaviour, without even trying to fight against it, cannot claim to have a heart made anew by Jesus and the Holy Spirit. That Spirit within us must cry out against sin. This is not limiting God, it's just reiterating what He's told us.
This is not about our growth in God, this is about the souls of people, gay people. They are just as precious as we are. Their sin may differ to the ones we struggle with, but in every other way they are equal. My point is that the growing trend in the church as well as society is to say that homosexuality is as normal as heterosexual relationships. As you admit, God clearly tells us it is not. Any sex outside of a marriage made of one man and one woman, as God created, is sin. Any sin, all sin, must be repented of, fought against and ultimately cleansed from our lives. We can only hope to do this through Christ and the Holy Spirit. How damaging would it be to our walk with Christ if we were told so often we believed it, that our sins were acceptable in the eyes of God? Why, believing this, would we even think to repent, to ask forgiveness for them, to turn from them and walk that narrow path? Suddenly we are walking with many others on the wide road, were everything is permitted and is actually encouraged by 'god'. This is so wrong, and it will mislead so many souls away from Jesus. Embracing any sin will ultimately lead us away from Him, and it will led to yet more sins being called righteous.
Love is not moot!
The argument that homosexuality should be accepted because of it is however. Of course we are to love, just as Christ loved....but that is NOT a sexual love. We do not jump into bed with anyone we want to 'love'. Jesus certainly didn't, and as He is our model, I think it's a safe bet to say that the sort of love going on between homosexual couples is not the love spoken of in scripture. And really, as much as love is needed we cannot do away with sin just by 'loving harder'. Only Jesus' return to this earth will bring a cessation to evil. Even here, on a "Christian" board we can see friction and dissension. Of course we need to love sinners, just as we ourselves, as sinners, need love. But how much harm are we in fact doing them by telling them that they will be fine in the eyes of God in their continued sin?No, I do not imagine that gays have sex 24/7! Of course I know they are normal people, I have never said differently. But you must know that sin is pervasive. I recognise that there are many Christians who have these urges, who fight them and are not 'practicing' gays. This is amazing! They are fighting against their own sin nature, and I have no doubt that they are doing so with the help of the Spirit. But even if a practising gay doesn't have sex all the time, they are still accepting and even condoning the sin active within their lives. That's like any other sin. A thief doesn't steal all the time, a prideful person still has their moments of selflessness. But every time they lapse into their behaviour and don't see a problem with it, it is an insult to the Christ they claim as their own.
Nothing can limit God, especially not faulty human understanding. So often we cannot see what God is planning, what He is thinking, how His actions or message could possibly be just, or loving or good. But despite this, true trust and faith must prod us to know that He is good, and just and loving, and that what He tells us in His word will all work together for His glory.
Each and every one of us has stumbling blocks in our lives. Some people seem to have it easy, but mostly all of us has something impossibly hard in our lives. It's how we keep moving towards God despite of it; through it, maybe even because of it, that gives glory to God, that helps us grow in our walk. Homosexuality is one of these blocks, and no, it can't be easy, but life isn't. We shouldn't think it must be. It's a fallen world, and we are fallen people. Life is going to be hard; not because of God, but because of sin. Just as Peter says that our lives will be hard, but that it is only a 'little while' in the grand scheme of things:
"In this you rejoice, though now for a little while, if necessary, you have been grieved by various trials, so that the tested genuineness of your faith - more precious than gold that perishes though it is tested by fire - may be found to result in praise and glory and honour at the revelation of Jesus Christ." (1 Peter 1:6-7 ESV)
Basically, what I'm saying, is that it's not homosexuality I'm necessarily arguing against (although yes, it is wrong), it's that sin is not, can not, become okay. By saying that homosexuality is acceptable, we are saying that sin is acceptable. That is a line that we must not cross, it is the beginning of a slippery and damning slope.
But at the same time, hetrosexuals do not demand to have fornication made acceptable....we do not try to change Gods word with regard to what is considered sin. We know its sinful to commit immorality and we dont argue the point.
Homosexuals want very much to justify their sin. That is a huge difference.
Just because someone has a desire, does not mean it is a natural desire. And it certainly does not mean that God gave them the desire.
Fire-7, I really admire your honesty. It cannot be easy for you. I'm so very sorry that you've had to hear pastors telling you those horrible things. Obviously they have some sort of amazing pride, which means they really need to look at that log in their eye!!
We all suffer from sin, ALL of us. Any Christian who tells you otherwise is lying...which is a sin!! The thing is Fire, is that we are all born sinful. You claim you were born gay, you probably were. But that doesn't mean it's okay. I'm trying very hard here not to hurt you...please understand that I'm not saying I'm better than you, just that my sins are different...they are still weighty and I struggle with them. But because Jesus had to die for them, I know that they are not okay. I know I cannot accept them within my life, that I must fight against them. I will fight until I die, because I am not perfect...I know that even if I defeat some, others will pop up. But Jesus suffered and died horribly...my God died because He loved me so much. How can I do anything other than fight against the very thing that caused His death?
I'm sorry that you're experience with unloving Pastor's has given you a bad picture of God....please know that He loves you very much. No matter your sin, you must know that He loved you enough to tap you on the shoulder. You've been searching, and the bible tells us that man, sinful man by himself, would not search out God. Every single one of us who turns to God has been led there by Him, because He loves us and has a plan for us. I know you struggle, with homosexuality, with what others think of you. But please try and separate the nature we are all given at birth, from who God is calling you to be...who He loves enough to die for. Really call to Him Fire, call to Him and His Holy Spirit, ask for comfort, for wisdom and for conviction. He can support and guide you as no other can. If you truly want the truth He will reveal it to you, and then give you the courage to live it. Will be praying for you!
aspen
“"The harvest is plentiful but the workers are few
I see no difference. Homosexuals want guaranteed protection from the law when it comes to crimes against them based on their status. They want benefits like every other person receives for their family. They want their behavior decriminalized.
Heterosexuals can cheat on their spouses without fear of criminal prosecution. Heterosexuals enjoy fornication all the time and simply expect to be accepted. Heterosexuals enjoy strip clubs, internet porn, and all kinds of legal debauchery without fear of being beat up, murdered, or picketed at their funerals for their behavior. Practically all heterosexual sex is already accepted by society and not prosecuted by the law. If the law decided to start prosecuting fornication, adultery and common debauchery - heterosexuals would tell the government to get out of their lives and claim all kinds infringment.
So do you really believe that sexuality is just a whimsical desire? In fact sexuality is a deep drive that can move people to murder, theft, sexual crime, and suicide. It is hardly a simple desire....
Finally, if you refuse to allow or even acknowledge that homosexuals can be in a relationship with God, why should they be bound by His laws? If they are bound for Hell, why should they conform to the rules of a God that plans to damn them? Even God allows them freewil - who are we to second guess God?
this is all political in nature... it has nothing to do with the bible or religion.
All of Gods intelligent creation are bound by his laws whether they like it or not. He has given us the option of obedience and life, or disobedience and death. We are free to choose our own course. There will come the day when we will all be held accountable for our decisions and for our conduct, until then, we are free to do what we please.
Nice point Pegg! It's true, homosexuals should have the same political and social rights as every single other person on the planet. But as Christians we should be very aware that what is of this world is very different than what is of God. We live in the world, not of it. People who choose to accept their sins as normal and fine are making the choice to be of the world.
Sin is sin, and just because society sees it one way does not mean God approves. If it is sin, it is an affront to Him. Why, even under the precious blood of Christ, would we want to keep sinning? Every single sinful thought and action I've every had or will have was placed on Jesus' as He died. That grieves me greatly, and I can do no other than to fight against anything in me that is of that nature. I don't understand Christians who think it's okay to keep on keeping on, with seemingly no thought or respect to the price that had to be paid.
yes thats how I see it too. The world can behave in whatever way it desires. But we have chosen to strive for Gods approval. He approves of those who are determined to see things the way he sees them and that means we must 'hate what is bad'
Jude gave a warning to christians who practice sin willfully.
Jude 4 certain men have slipped in who have long ago been appointed by the Scriptures to this judgment, ungodly men, turning the undeserved kindness of our God into an excuse for loose conduct and proving false to our only Owner and Lord, Jesus Christ.
We must always fight the urge to sin and never take advantage of Gods undeserved kindness.
aspen
“"The harvest is plentiful but the workers are few
Rach
I appreciate your willingness to discuss this topic. I read your post paragraph by paragraph and commented as I read. Hope it makes sense.
David is forgiven because he repented of his sin. Of course God loved David, He loves all of us. But if we do not repent of our sins, we will not be forgiven them. It's that simple. We cannot say..."I am unable to help myself from committing this sin, it's in my nature, therefore it's okay to continue in it"... and still expect to be forgiven, for God to grant us His grace. Will He still love us? Of course, that is the amazing love of God. But for us to say that Jesus died for ALL my sins, but not fight against those sins within our lives, is to disrespect that very sacrifice. Our sins will only be 'overlooked' if we are covered by Christ's blood. And to be covered by that blood we need to repent and believe. To continue blithely on in the same behavior is not true repentance. If a killer said 'sorry' after every kill, but kept on killing, do we really believe he is sincere? Of course not. A person who claims they are born again, but continues on in a sinful behavior, without even trying to fight against it, cannot claim to have a heart made anew by Jesus and the Holy Spirit. That Spirit within us must cry out against sin. This is not limiting God, it's just reiterating what He's told us.
1. You are right. David repented of the sins he acknowledged - stealing property from his friend and murdering him.
2. David did not repent from sleeping with his concubines - he wasn't married to any of them. He knew this was sinful, but it was also cultural.
3. I do not think most people who acknowledge sinful behavior impose a simple justification - I think most wrestle with it.
4. People can only repent of sins that they acknowledge with their minds and hearts and will. Many people have no idea they are actually sinning.
5. Most people who care about Jesus, care about His sacrifice.
6. I think admitting you have a sin problem and becoming aware of it and talking freely with God about it is really what God wants. Adam and Eve were evasive. We are still human and still learning to love as God want us to. God wants a humble heart with a desire to obey.
This is not about our growth in God, this is about the souls of people, gay people. They are just as precious as we are. Their sin may differ to the ones we struggle with, but in every other way they are equal. My point is that the growing trend in the church as well as society is to say that homosexuality is as normal as heterosexual relationships. As you admit, God clearly tells us it is not. Any sex outside of a marriage made of one man and one woman, as God created, is sin. Any sin, all sin, must be repented of, fought against and ultimately cleansed from our lives. We can only hope to do this through Christ and the Holy Spirit. How damaging would it be to our walk with Christ if we were told so often we believed it, that our sins were acceptable in the eyes of God? Why, believing this, would we even think to repent, to ask forgiveness for them, to turn from them and walk that narrow path? Suddenly we are walking with many others on the wide road, were everything is permitted and is actually encouraged by 'god'. This is so wrong, and it will mislead so many souls away from Jesus. Embracing any sin will ultimately lead us away from Him, and it will led to yet more sins being called righteous.
1. The souls of gay people are in God's hands.
2. I think homosexuality needs to be normalized - not justified, but treated like every other sin that does not disqualify people from the family of God.
3. I have never claimed that homosexuality was not a sin.
4. Yeah, it is a logical fallacy to justify the condemnation of homosexuals for fornication when you refuse to allow them to marry.
5. Isn't our sin and the sanctification of our souls between God and us?
6. I think it is more damaging to deal with homosexuals by rejecting them, which leads to bitterness and resentment and hatred towards God.
7. Accepting the sinner is not accepting the sin. I do not advocate teaching anyone that homosexuality is acceptable - I simply think that shunning them is wrong and not helpful.
Love is not moot! The argument that homosexuality should be accepted because of it is however. Of course we are to love, just as Christ loved....but that is NOT a sexual love. We do not jump into bed with anyone we want to 'love'. Jesus certainly didn't, and as He is our model, I think it's a safe bet to say that the sort of love going on between homosexual couples is not the love spoken of in scripture. And really, as much as love is needed we cannot do away with sin just by 'loving harder'. Only Jesus' return to this earth will bring a cessation to evil. Even here, on a "Christian" board we can see friction and dissension. Of course we need to love sinners, just as we ourselves, as sinners, need love. But how much harm are we in fact doing them by telling them that they will be fine in the eyes of God in their continued sin?
1. I think we are running into a difference of definitions. I define homosexuality as same sex attraction. It appears that you believe that homosexuality is confined to the sexual act.
2. Every homosexual couple I know either cherishes the relationship they have or are looking for a partner to love.
3. Have you tried to tell anyone of the regulars here on this board whose posts are full of arrogance and contempt that they maybe out of line? How did that work for you? They do not listen because they do not see their sin - all they see from us is an unwarranted attack. Just think how much more futile it is to tell a homosexual that the Bible says that they are a sinner? First, they have heard the same message all their lives - second they have heard rejection messages from family and peers - third, they have told themselves that they are worthless and hated by God. How do you expect them to receive your cognitive message graciously and with an open mind and a new outlook? It is like informing a person who has been fat their whole lives that they really might be overweight and they should probably think about going on a diet - gluttony is a sin, you know.
No, I do not imagine that gays have sex 24/7! Of course I know they are normal people, I have never said differently. But you must know that sin is pervasive. I recognise that there are many Christians who have these urges, who fight them and are not 'practicing' gays. This is amazing! They are fighting against their own sin nature, and I have no doubt that they are doing so with the help of the Spirit. But even if a practising gay doesn't have sex all the time, they are still accepting and even condoning the sin active within their lives. That's like any other sin. A thief doesn't steal all the time, a prideful person still has their moments of selflessness. But every time they lapse into their behaviour and don't see a problem with it, it is an insult to the Christ they claim as their own.
1. Yep. We all have life long patterns of sin. All we can do is turn to God in our weakness. I have learned that repeated sin - especially addiction, can really keep you humble.
Nothing can limit God, especially not faulty human understanding. So often we cannot see what God is planning, what He is thinking, how His actions or message could possibly be just, or loving or good. But despite this, true trust and faith must prod us to know that He is good, and just and loving, and that what He tells us in His word will all work together for His glory.
Each and every one of us has stumbling blocks in our lives. Some people seem to have it easy, but mostly all of us has something impossibly hard in our lives. It's how we keep moving towards God despite of it; through it, maybe even because of it, that gives glory to God, that helps us grow in our walk. Homosexuality is one of these blocks, and no, it can't be easy, but life isn't. We shouldn't think it must be. It's a fallen world, and we are fallen people. Life is going to be hard; not because of God, but because of sin. Just as Peter says that our lives will be hard, but that it is only a 'little while' in the grand scheme of things:
"In this you rejoice, though now for a little while, if necessary, you have been grieved by various trials, so that the tested genuineness of your faith - more precious than gold that perishes though it is tested by fire - may be found to result in praise and glory and honour at the revelation of Jesus Christ." (1 Peter 1:6-7 ESV)
1. Only human will can limit God. He desires all of us to be saved, but if we refuse His justification and sanctification, we remain broken humans, incapable of fulfilling our created purpose to love perfectly. I certainly do not want to help anyone, homosexual or heretic or Christian to form bitterness towards God.
2. If overweight people and addicted people and Biblical figures who had more than one wife can be in a saving relationship with Jesus, so can a homosexual.
Basically, what I'm saying, is that it's not homosexuality I'm necessarily arguing against (although yes, it is wrong), it's that sin is not, can not, become okay. By saying that homosexuality is acceptable, we are saying that sin is acceptable. That is a line that we must not cross, it is the beginning of a slippery and damning slope.
1. Fair enough. Unfortunately, we have already crossed that line. Consumerism is not only acceptable, it is glorified. Pastor John Hagee and Pastor Jerry Falwell are and were hugely overweight and not only got to be pastors but got to speak for the Christian community. Now, they appeared unable to manage their own bodies, let alone their households - should Hagee step down.
2. I know more than a handful of pastors that are openly arrogant. One even jokes that he really struggles with pride - instead of firing him, the congregation has a good chuckle. Now, if this pastor said that he really struggled with lusting over men - he would be fired as soon as the words were processed by the same congregation.
I appreciate your willingness to discuss this topic. I read your post paragraph by paragraph and commented as I read. Hope it makes sense.
David is forgiven because he repented of his sin. Of course God loved David, He loves all of us. But if we do not repent of our sins, we will not be forgiven them. It's that simple. We cannot say..."I am unable to help myself from committing this sin, it's in my nature, therefore it's okay to continue in it"... and still expect to be forgiven, for God to grant us His grace. Will He still love us? Of course, that is the amazing love of God. But for us to say that Jesus died for ALL my sins, but not fight against those sins within our lives, is to disrespect that very sacrifice. Our sins will only be 'overlooked' if we are covered by Christ's blood. And to be covered by that blood we need to repent and believe. To continue blithely on in the same behavior is not true repentance. If a killer said 'sorry' after every kill, but kept on killing, do we really believe he is sincere? Of course not. A person who claims they are born again, but continues on in a sinful behavior, without even trying to fight against it, cannot claim to have a heart made anew by Jesus and the Holy Spirit. That Spirit within us must cry out against sin. This is not limiting God, it's just reiterating what He's told us.
1. You are right. David repented of the sins he acknowledged - stealing property from his friend and murdering him.
2. David did not repent from sleeping with his concubines - he wasn't married to any of them. He knew this was sinful, but it was also cultural.
3. I do not think most people who acknowledge sinful behavior impose a simple justification - I think most wrestle with it.
4. People can only repent of sins that they acknowledge with their minds and hearts and will. Many people have no idea they are actually sinning.
5. Most people who care about Jesus, care about His sacrifice.
6. I think admitting you have a sin problem and becoming aware of it and talking freely with God about it is really what God wants. Adam and Eve were evasive. We are still human and still learning to love as God want us to. God wants a humble heart with a desire to obey.
This is not about our growth in God, this is about the souls of people, gay people. They are just as precious as we are. Their sin may differ to the ones we struggle with, but in every other way they are equal. My point is that the growing trend in the church as well as society is to say that homosexuality is as normal as heterosexual relationships. As you admit, God clearly tells us it is not. Any sex outside of a marriage made of one man and one woman, as God created, is sin. Any sin, all sin, must be repented of, fought against and ultimately cleansed from our lives. We can only hope to do this through Christ and the Holy Spirit. How damaging would it be to our walk with Christ if we were told so often we believed it, that our sins were acceptable in the eyes of God? Why, believing this, would we even think to repent, to ask forgiveness for them, to turn from them and walk that narrow path? Suddenly we are walking with many others on the wide road, were everything is permitted and is actually encouraged by 'god'. This is so wrong, and it will mislead so many souls away from Jesus. Embracing any sin will ultimately lead us away from Him, and it will led to yet more sins being called righteous.
1. The souls of gay people are in God's hands.
2. I think homosexuality needs to be normalized - not justified, but treated like every other sin that does not disqualify people from the family of God.
3. I have never claimed that homosexuality was not a sin.
4. Yeah, it is a logical fallacy to justify the condemnation of homosexuals for fornication when you refuse to allow them to marry.
5. Isn't our sin and the sanctification of our souls between God and us?
6. I think it is more damaging to deal with homosexuals by rejecting them, which leads to bitterness and resentment and hatred towards God.
7. Accepting the sinner is not accepting the sin. I do not advocate teaching anyone that homosexuality is acceptable - I simply think that shunning them is wrong and not helpful.
Love is not moot!
The argument that homosexuality should be accepted because of it is however. Of course we are to love, just as Christ loved....but that is NOT a sexual love. We do not jump into bed with anyone we want to 'love'. Jesus certainly didn't, and as He is our model, I think it's a safe bet to say that the sort of love going on between homosexual couples is not the love spoken of in scripture. And really, as much as love is needed we cannot do away with sin just by 'loving harder'. Only Jesus' return to this earth will bring a cessation to evil. Even here, on a "Christian" board we can see friction and dissension. Of course we need to love sinners, just as we ourselves, as sinners, need love. But how much harm are we in fact doing them by telling them that they will be fine in the eyes of God in their continued sin?1. I think we are running into a difference of definitions. I define homosexuality as same sex attraction. It appears that you believe that homosexuality is confined to the sexual act.
2. Every homosexual couple I know either cherishes the relationship they have or are looking for a partner to love.
3. Have you tried to tell anyone of the regulars here on this board whose posts are full of arrogance and contempt that they maybe out of line? How did that work for you? They do not listen because they do not see their sin - all they see from us is an unwarranted attack. Just think how much more futile it is to tell a homosexual that the Bible says that they are a sinner? First, they have heard the same message all their lives - second they have heard rejection messages from family and peers - third, they have told themselves that they are worthless and hated by God. How do you expect them to receive your cognitive message graciously and with an open mind and a new outlook? It is like informing a person who has been fat their whole lives that they really might be overweight and they should probably think about going on a diet - gluttony is a sin, you know.
No, I do not imagine that gays have sex 24/7! Of course I know they are normal people, I have never said differently. But you must know that sin is pervasive. I recognise that there are many Christians who have these urges, who fight them and are not 'practicing' gays. This is amazing! They are fighting against their own sin nature, and I have no doubt that they are doing so with the help of the Spirit. But even if a practising gay doesn't have sex all the time, they are still accepting and even condoning the sin active within their lives. That's like any other sin. A thief doesn't steal all the time, a prideful person still has their moments of selflessness. But every time they lapse into their behaviour and don't see a problem with it, it is an insult to the Christ they claim as their own.
1. Yep. We all have life long patterns of sin. All we can do is turn to God in our weakness. I have learned that repeated sin - especially addiction, can really keep you humble.
Nothing can limit God, especially not faulty human understanding. So often we cannot see what God is planning, what He is thinking, how His actions or message could possibly be just, or loving or good. But despite this, true trust and faith must prod us to know that He is good, and just and loving, and that what He tells us in His word will all work together for His glory.
Each and every one of us has stumbling blocks in our lives. Some people seem to have it easy, but mostly all of us has something impossibly hard in our lives. It's how we keep moving towards God despite of it; through it, maybe even because of it, that gives glory to God, that helps us grow in our walk. Homosexuality is one of these blocks, and no, it can't be easy, but life isn't. We shouldn't think it must be. It's a fallen world, and we are fallen people. Life is going to be hard; not because of God, but because of sin. Just as Peter says that our lives will be hard, but that it is only a 'little while' in the grand scheme of things:
"In this you rejoice, though now for a little while, if necessary, you have been grieved by various trials, so that the tested genuineness of your faith - more precious than gold that perishes though it is tested by fire - may be found to result in praise and glory and honour at the revelation of Jesus Christ." (1 Peter 1:6-7 ESV)
1. Only human will can limit God. He desires all of us to be saved, but if we refuse His justification and sanctification, we remain broken humans, incapable of fulfilling our created purpose to love perfectly. I certainly do not want to help anyone, homosexual or heretic or Christian to form bitterness towards God.
2. If overweight people and addicted people and Biblical figures who had more than one wife can be in a saving relationship with Jesus, so can a homosexual.
Basically, what I'm saying, is that it's not homosexuality I'm necessarily arguing against (although yes, it is wrong), it's that sin is not, can not, become okay. By saying that homosexuality is acceptable, we are saying that sin is acceptable. That is a line that we must not cross, it is the beginning of a slippery and damning slope.
1. Fair enough. Unfortunately, we have already crossed that line. Consumerism is not only acceptable, it is glorified. Pastor John Hagee and Pastor Jerry Falwell are and were hugely overweight and not only got to be pastors but got to speak for the Christian community. Now, they appeared unable to manage their own bodies, let alone their households - should Hagee step down.
2. I know more than a handful of pastors that are openly arrogant. One even jokes that he really struggles with pride - instead of firing him, the congregation has a good chuckle. Now, if this pastor said that he really struggled with lusting over men - he would be fired as soon as the words were processed by the same congregation.
I wish I knew if you had read the OP, mine. God created the ¨perfect¨ man and the ¨perfect¨ woman and because they were created for fellowship and for love they were created with a free will. Without free will there can be no love nor could a perfect man and woman be deceived and led into sin. From that point until this time mankind has been in a state of decline and humans are less and less perfect. Now, that you were born or raised (an issue I´m to smart to debate) to be a homosexual is not the issue! My mother trained and raised me to be a criminal and when the homosexual thing showed up she was not upset... it was just one more thing for her to figure out how to capitalize on. All of this is gibberish and completely off point!
Homosexuality is a sin, just as stealing, lying, adultery and many others are! The truth of the matter is that (Rom. 3:23) we, every one of us must repent to walk with God, period! Today, I am in my Senior Years and married to one of the most incredible women God ever created. There are four, younger, adults and some grandchildren that I look very favorably on as I recall my turning to serve God. You failed to come into this conversation with spit and slander so I am left to believe that you are, most, likely a good man that is going to Hell for exactly one reason and for nothing else! You are refusing to obey God and answer the Ćall'He has placed on your life.
On the day that I yielded and took the Christ for my Master, I was the same dirty sinner I had always been, nothing was different that day. But... because I did not quince the Holy Spirit I am not the man I used to be, nor are my desires the same as they had been. God changed me, is changing me and will change you if you will make Him your Master nd that is the core issue!
Hey Aspen. I'll only reply to some of your points, otherwise it'll start to get way too long!!
* It's true that sometimes we are oblivious to sin in our lives. That's why we're told to pray the Spirit convicts us. Pride and stubbornness can get in the way of our hearing Him, but I truly believe that any willing and humble Christian will be led to see what is hindering their walk with Jesus.
* It's easy to say we care about His sacrifice, but do those Christians who actively embrace the sin in their lives really care? 'Jesus, I know you died horribly for my sins, but I really like doing/thinking/saying this, so despite the fact that it's bad enough to need your death, I'm going to keep doing it.' Doesn't sound like respect to me. Granted it's not as easy as stopping your sinful actions dead on. But I'm talking about people who don't even see the need to change their behaviours or action. Thoroughly unrepentant Christians. Kinda an oxymoron really, but they're out there.
* Certainly seeing and admitting the sin is an important first step. But we are told repeatedly to "put our sin to death". That's fairly strong wording. It implies that it's a daily battle, an ongoing war against the nature we were born with opposing the nature we received when we received Jesus into our lives. The two are opposed, like oil and water. But as Christ is stronger we should battle with the sure knowledge that if we hold true to Him we will eventually triumph. Sin has no hold over us while we keep that in mind.
* Yup, the souls of everyone are in God's hand. But should we mislead people into thinking their sin is okay in the eyes of God? Luke 17:1 says: "Temptations to sin are sure to come, but woe to the one through whom they come!"
* I have never claimed that homosexuality is worse than any other sin...it is not. Perhaps, because of the nature of it, it may be harder for the person to live with/deal with. But as far as sin goes, it is equal.
* Of course it's between God and the person. But we are told to encourage and convict one another. It's a support system. You may think it is unloving of me to say homosexuality is a sin, but if their behaviour is going to lead them away from God, it is not. It is because we are sometimes blind to our own sins that we need our brothers and sisters to support us and to lovingly open our eyes. It is only because of other sinful behaviours that these things become hurtful and unhelpful.
* Christian society in general has not handled the homosexual issue well, or lovingly. They have either condemned or labelled it fine with God. Neither is the correct approach. Can you imagine how hard it must be for gay people? Sexuality is such a huge part of a person. Everyone has desires and needs, but for 'straight' people all our needs can be met in a relationship and marriage that is acceptable to society, community and God. It's so easy for us in that regard. But while I truly feel for these people, I will not compromise on what God has told us to be true. Sexual Immorality is a sin. These people need more love, more understanding and more support from us, not ostracism. If it is harder for them to overcome, of course we need to be there for them. But being there for them does NOT mean allowing them to feel God is cool with them embracing their 'lifestyle'. Does this make sense? Christianity should not accept the unrepentant, defiant lifestyle of anyone confessing Christ, but living happily with their sin. Any sin.
* No, I define homosexuality as people who have same sex attraction. But I believe that people can still have those desires, but live as Christ has called them...not giving in to those desires, not having a relationship with someone of the same sex. Just the same as every other sinner in the world can choose to live for Jesus, and fight the sin within them every day.
* I do not doubt even slightly that these people genuinely and fully love. My point is not that, nor is it whether they should be seen as equal to others, socially, politically etc...they should. That should all be besides the point...the real issue needs to be what God thinks. And God has said no. It's that simple. No. People don't like to hear it, no one likes to hear they're wrong...but it doesn't stop them from being wrong! The message doesn't (at least it shouldn't) change, but we do need to learn to get it across without doing damage. Every message of Christ should be told with love, acceptance and understanding. Doesn't change the message, just the telling of it.
* Not arguing that a homosexual can't be saved. Anyone can be saved! Just look at some of the characters that Jesus called to Him in the new Testament! But what did all those people have in common? They repented and turned away from their sin. Matthew, a tax collector...a thief...repented, left everything to follow Jesus. Jesus said "I have not come to call the righteous but sinners to repentance." (Luke 5:31) And of course Zacchaeus, another tax collector - he gave away most of his wealth and paid back everyone he had ripped off. Paul? He was a murderer, a persecutor, but when Jesus called him, he repented and turned away from his sinful nature and called himself the very worst of sinners.
Jesus Himself told us it would be hard to follow Him: "If anyone would come after me, let him deny himself and take up his cross daily and follow me." (Luke 9:18) We must repent of our sins to be saved (Luke 13:1-5). People will always struggle with their sin nature, no matter what it is, but we must not convince ourselves or others that the sin has no weight.
* Sadly their are many Pastors that do not hold up to the standards they should, that are set down in Timothy. However, I think it behooves us to be very careful making accusations against them when we do not have a full picture of who they are or what they teach. I do not know Hagee or Falwell, so I cannot comment. I do wonder if the other pastor you mentioned is Mark Driscoll? He does mention his issues with pride, but I must caution you...the man does have a sense of humour and while it may not tickle everyone's funny bone, you cannot fault his teaching. He teaches straight from scripture and every single point the man makes focuses on Jesus. He does admit to battling pride but you can see, hear that he fights it. Pride, after all, is the mother sin. Every single human alive has it. I admire his teaching because he doesn't just point his finger, he shares his struggles and triumphs through the help of the Spirit.
Well normally I am a massive homophobe and would be first in line for the gay bashing. A friend of mine has done some work with hs's who have been bullied or abused and he has some pretty heartbreaking stories. I felt kind of bad knowing that a guy like me could be so mean to someone who has not done anything to them. (except for this one time this gay guy grabbed my butt and I beat the hell out him) Anyways I can't see the Jesus I know turning away anyone for anything really including liking the same sex. There are better more positive things to focus on in church than what someone does in the bedroom anyways. I mean I know I was born 1000% straight I mean if a woman doesn't have boobs I can't really well you know. My two cents anyways
aspen
“"The harvest is plentiful but the workers are few
Rach,
I appreciate what you are saying, and I agree these posts are getting huge.
I think I can sum up my position:
1. Traditionally, Christianity has rejected homosexuals; treating them as chronic sinners who were intentionally spiting God - all I am advocating is a different approach - instead of shunning them until they meet our idea of Christ's standards for joining the Church (Body of Christ), why not welcome them as sinners with open arms? Like you said, it is up to the Holy Spirit to convict them of their sin - and as Christians, they will be praying to God to convicted them of all sorts of sinful behavior. If homosexuality is one of the sins that offends God - the Holy Spirit will let them know.
2. Rejecting people in order to convince them of their sin is not effective. In fact, it causes mental, emotional, and spiritual damage. Instead of teaching homosexuals a lesson in repentance, we are driving them to despair and bitterness. We are actually adding to their terrible burden. Perspective taking is desperately need in this situation - could you imagine the shame and fear of discovering that you are attracted to the same sex? Only developing a genuine, loving relationship with people is going to influence them on a heart level, rather than simply debating facts and picketing them with information.
3. I have a deep conviction that people are broken (my definition of sinful), not depraved or wicked to the core; most people are operating to the best of their ability, but they are lost, isolated and desperately need God's justification and sanctification to become whole. Yes, we are under the influence of Original Sin, but we were created good and still crave God. Homosexuals are simply broken people, like the rest of us and they are craving love from others and God. The Church should be a safe place for them to work out their salvation with fear and trembling.
4. Finally, I have a sneaky suspicion that we are being challenged to love deeply and radically as part of our own sanctification. Loving radically involves accepting and serving people (simply on a human level) we do not agree with. As a counselor, I have to do this all day long and I believe it is what God calls us to do.
I guess that is all I have....
Blessings
I appreciate what you are saying, and I agree these posts are getting huge.
I think I can sum up my position:
1. Traditionally, Christianity has rejected homosexuals; treating them as chronic sinners who were intentionally spiting God - all I am advocating is a different approach - instead of shunning them until they meet our idea of Christ's standards for joining the Church (Body of Christ), why not welcome them as sinners with open arms? Like you said, it is up to the Holy Spirit to convict them of their sin - and as Christians, they will be praying to God to convicted them of all sorts of sinful behavior. If homosexuality is one of the sins that offends God - the Holy Spirit will let them know.
2. Rejecting people in order to convince them of their sin is not effective. In fact, it causes mental, emotional, and spiritual damage. Instead of teaching homosexuals a lesson in repentance, we are driving them to despair and bitterness. We are actually adding to their terrible burden. Perspective taking is desperately need in this situation - could you imagine the shame and fear of discovering that you are attracted to the same sex? Only developing a genuine, loving relationship with people is going to influence them on a heart level, rather than simply debating facts and picketing them with information.
3. I have a deep conviction that people are broken (my definition of sinful), not depraved or wicked to the core; most people are operating to the best of their ability, but they are lost, isolated and desperately need God's justification and sanctification to become whole. Yes, we are under the influence of Original Sin, but we were created good and still crave God. Homosexuals are simply broken people, like the rest of us and they are craving love from others and God. The Church should be a safe place for them to work out their salvation with fear and trembling.
4. Finally, I have a sneaky suspicion that we are being challenged to love deeply and radically as part of our own sanctification. Loving radically involves accepting and serving people (simply on a human level) we do not agree with. As a counselor, I have to do this all day long and I believe it is what God calls us to do.
I guess that is all I have....
Blessings
goodshepard55
New Member
Aspen..your heart speaks the truth of the Lord God...God does not like sin...any sin...but God loves all people...whether they are green or purple...homosexual or heterosexual...God has not told us to love the green person and despise the purple one...He did not say love the heterosexual and despise the homosexual.....sometimes in life DNA gets messed up...I have seen children born with both male and female genitals....so does God turn His back on this small imperfect little ones?...NO...sometimes because of our past we turn from what is normal for some to the abnormal...does God turn His back on us? NO...sometimes we are born with imperfect bodies and sexual orientation....But one thing is as sure as I sit here...God LOVES all...each one of us and with our imperfect ways and imperfect bodies and our imperfect minds...He does not love me more than anyone else, because love is love...not more or less than my friend or the person in the line in front of us in the grocery store...Love is love..and God is Pure love....I let God do what He does so well...I am friends with lots of different people...but I do know God loves them and I share who He is with them whether they are purple, green, yellow or polka dotted....You are such a deep thinker Aspen and God is so in love with you.....
Shep
Shep
Homosexualtiy, like stealing. gossiping, etc is a sin, and like "all" sin it brings death, it is no worse then any other sin, in the eyes of God it is just another sin, the result of which is the same as any other sin. yet it is us, whom make it out to be worse then all the others, lets pick on them forget about the church gossipers, the christians divorcing one another, infidelity ( pastors included), lying cheatimg, and all the rest, lets see was it not Christ who said
" Let he who is without sin cast the first stone",
me ill not raise my hand,I cannot condemn them for id be condeming myself, such is the Nature of God
in His Love
" Let he who is without sin cast the first stone",
me ill not raise my hand,I cannot condemn them for id be condeming myself, such is the Nature of God
in His Love
-- There is a huge difference between standing in judgment of someone with a rock in your hand, ready to move beyond judgement to sentencing and helping someone understand that Jesus loves them but cannot abide by the sin that is in their lives.
Pointing out that Jesus loves them just as much as they love you and you had to turn away from your sin as well shows you are coming from the same place as them.
It is the witnessing that God calls us to do.
Paul was clearly saying those who live sinful lives "will not inherit the Kingdom of God". There is a huge difference between committing a sin and living a sinful life. We? Speak for yourself. You are doing homosexuals a terrible wrong by telling them they can be Christians and homosexuals too.
aspen
“"The harvest is plentiful but the workers are few
- Status
Similar threads
