Homosexuality

[Duckybill]

So addicts can't be Christian?

Not quite the same thing. But yes, they can become Christians.

 

[aspen]

Not quite the same thing. But yes, they can become Christians.

How does that work? And how is it different?

 

[Duckybill]

How does that work? And how is it different?

You really don't know? The homosexual can choose. Many addicts cannot.

 

[aspen]

You really don't know? The homosexual can choose. Many addicts cannot.

First, I think that is a ridiculous statement

Second, both are chronic sinners, who cannot promise (without lying) that they will ever re-offend

Third. are you claiming that you could choose to be homosexual?

 

[Duckybill]

First, I think that is a ridiculous statement

How so?

Second, both are chronic sinners, who cannot promise (without lying) that they will ever re-offend

Sin is a matter of choice.

Third. are you claiming that you could choose to be homosexual?

Or not to be. In fact I did choose not to be.

 

[aspen]

How so?

Sin is a matter of choice.

Or not to be. In fact I did choose not to be.

It is ridiculous because claiming that a person can change their sexual attraction for a specific gender with a simple choice is absurd and either incredibly naive or fearfully idealistic.

If sin is a matter of choice, why did you say that some addicts cannot change?

So you are attracted to men and you chose to be with a women?

 

[Duckybill]

It is ridiculous because claiming that a person can change their sexual attraction for a specific gender with a simple choice is absurd and either incredibly naive or fearfully idealistic.

No more so than a liar can stop lying, or an adulterer can stop committing adultery, etc. All are possible for those who desire eternal salvation. Not easy, but possible.

If sin is a matter of choice, why did you say that some addicts cannot change?

Because POWERFUL drugs control them. They can be set free with help, but those who don't get help can still get saved.

So you are attracted to men and you chose to be with a women?

I gave up MANY sins MANY years ago. It's called repenting. Many fall into temptation because they do not seek God with all their hearts. Just as we saw in another thread where a homosexual was trying to drag someone else down with himself. The remedy is seeking God's help. He offers plenty of help for those who truly desire to be free from their sins. Many would rather live in their sins than repent. It's a matter of choice.

 

[aspen]

No more so than a liar can stop lying, or an adulterer can stop committing adultery, etc. All are possible for those who desire eternal salvation. Not easy, but possible.

So, homosexuality is simply a bad habit - not really and addiction? I am not expecting you to be a developmental psychologist, or an expert on human sexuality, but com'mon Ducky! The development of human sexuality is one of the most complex (social, psychological, biological, neurological, genetic components) aspects of a developing person. Calling it is a choice, as if a person simply needs to change their clothing says more about your lack (or unwillingness) of perspective taking skills than an accurate portrayal of human sexuality.

Because POWERFUL drugs control them. They can be set free with help, but those who don't get help can still get saved.

I think it will surprise you to know that drugs and alcohol and all addictive substances are hard to quit because they set off our reward system in the brain. In the case of alcohol and food - GABA is allowed to remain in the synaptic gap for an extended period of time, which causes feelings of euphoria and well being. The same reward system (different neurotransmitters) is involved in attraction and sexual experience. Unfortunately, if the person is involved with a substance (food instead of alcohol for the alcoholic), the reward system is not activated. Same with sexuality. So if the brain is not rewarding the person, no feelings of attraction or excitement occur. Most people lose interest and often develop a revulsion for the activity or substance.

I gave up MANY sins MANY years ago. It's called repenting. Many fall into temptation because they do not seek God with all their hearts. Just as we saw in another thread where a homosexual was trying to drag someone else down with himself. The remedy is seeking God's help. He offers plenty of help for those who truly desire to be free from their sins. Many would rather live in their sins than repent. It's a matter of choice.

For the record, I also expressed disapproval about that situation.

I think people would rather be happy than miserable and theologically correct.

I also think that Jesus put people ahead of doctrine all the time - we are called to love unconditionally - especially the sinner. Jesus ate meals with sinners with no mention of demanding repentance. If He can have a relationship with sinners on Earth, why not now? It doesn't mean that they will remain sinners all their lives, but it does mean that they can have a justified and sanctifying relationship with Jesus, while He works on their hearts.Actually, Jesus did not come to purge the Jewish Temple of heresy or tighten down the practices of the people who worshiped at the Temple; instead, He confronted legalism in an attempt to show the Pharisees that the reason they were in business was not to guard the truth, in a fundamentalist manner, but to reach the people with the spirit of the law. Ritual means nothing if it is not transforming hearts.

It appears that you are putting doctrine before people in the case of homosexuality.

 

[Duckybill]

To say that we cannot overcome sin with God's help is making Satan more powerful. God's people are not puppets of Satan.

 

[aspen]

To say that we cannot overcome sin with God's help is making Satan more powerful. God's people are not puppets of Satan.

I never said that.

Satan has nothing to do with this issue.

 

[Duckybill]

I never said that.

Satan has nothing to do with this issue.

Satan isn't the tempter? We can overcome sin if we desire to do so. We can resist Satan's temptations.

 

[aspen]

Satan isn't the tempter? We can overcome sin if we desire to do so. We can resist Satan's temptations.

Satan is already defeated - he is like a toothless lion.

I take full responsibility for my actions when I lapse into sin.

We can only overcome sin by learning to love perfectly - only the Holy Spirit can teach us to love perfectly through sanctification.

Denying homosexuals access to the Body of Christ teaches them bitterness and rejection, not love. We are impeding the sanctifying work of the Holy Spirit in their hearts, which is the only way they will eventually be transformed.

 

[goodshepard55]

We can overcome any sin in God...however we can not overcome being born in an imperfect body or mind....we may be born in a male body, but be female in the mind or vise-verse.....How we act on it is the sin...God loves us all..but He does not like the sin...it would be a sin also not to be who we are born to be....However, God does help those who accept Him....It is a hard life but through Him anything is possible....I have a friend who was born male, and had a operation to change him to her...i love her for who she is, not what she was or the life she lives...Christians have condemned her enough...she now allows me to pray for her for healing and I ask Jesus for total healing...not just physical but mental and to heal her heart....I tell her how He loves her but not her life style...she is slowly seeing Him for who He is...Her Savior...

 

[Duckybill]

Satan is already defeated - he is like a toothless lion.

Then why is this world a sewer?

I take full responsibility for my actions when I lapse into sin.

We all will have to.

We can only overcome sin by learning to love perfectly - only the Holy Spirit can teach us to love perfectly through sanctification.

We overcome sin by turning away from it and refusing to sin with God's help.

Denying homosexuals access to the Body of Christ teaches them bitterness and rejection, not love. We are impeding the sanctifying work of the Holy Spirit in their hearts, which is the only way they will eventually be transformed.

There will be a LOT of folks who will be extremely bitter for all of eternity. I.E.

1 Corinthians 6:9-10 (ESV)
[sup]9 [/sup]Or do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived: neither the sexually immoral, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor men who practice homosexuality, [sup]10 [/sup]nor thieves, nor the greedy, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor swindlers will inherit the kingdom of God.



Please believe me Aspen, I would love for everyone to be saved. But the Bible does not present it that way. That's one reason I see the Mark of the Beast as one of God's greatest blessings on humans.

 

[aspen]

Then why is this world a sewer?

Because humans are not capable of loving perfectly. Perfect love for neighbor and God leaves not room for sin.

We overcome sin by turning away from it and refusing to sin with God's help.

You are right about turning away or repenting from sin, but if you realized that sin is simply imperfect love (love of self), you would understand that turning from love of self, towards love of God and neighbor is true repentance. Refusing to sin is sort of like burying your treasure - God wants us to practice moving in the right direction, rather than hunkering down and simply fighting temptation.

There will be a LOT of folks who will be extremely bitter for all of eternity. I.E.

1 Corinthians 6:9-10 (ESV)
[sup]9 [/sup]Or do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived: neither the sexually immoral, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor men who practice homosexuality, [sup]10 [/sup]nor thieves, nor the greedy, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor swindlers will inherit the kingdom of God.

This verse is often presented as a threat - you better shape up or your going to Hell!

Paul is not issuing a threat - he is stating a sad fact. A comparison might be, 'gamblers, loan sharks, and cheats will never experience the joys of financial security'. Sinners who do not repent are moving in the wrong direction and therefore, are in danger of missing out on the benefits of sanctification and loving perfectly (being a citizen of Heaven).

Please believe me Aspen, I would love for everyone to be saved. But the Bible does not present it that way.

I am glad to hear that you would love for everyone to be saved - me too. I agree not all people will be saved according to the Bible.

That's one reason I see the Mark of the Beast as one of God's greatest blessings on humans.

Not following you, please explain

 

[Duckybill]

This verse is often presented as a threat - you better shape up or your going to Hell!

And that's the bottom line. It's a clear warning. The wise will take heed. Eternity is at stake.

Paul is not issuing a threat - he is stating a sad fact. A comparison might be, 'gamblers, loan sharks, and cheats will never experience the joys of financial security'. Sinners who do not repent are moving in the wrong direction and therefore, are in danger of missing out on the benefits of sanctification and loving perfectly (being a citizen of Heaven).

What's the difference?

I am glad to hear that you would love for everyone to be saved - me too. I agree not all people will be saved according to the Bible.

MANY religious folks who live and defend sinful lives will be able to give their lives and be saved. They will have a final chance. But it will cost them their heads, literally.

Revelation 20:4 (ESV)
[sup]4 [/sup]Then I saw thrones, and seated on them were those to whom the authority to judge was committed. Also I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded for the testimony of Jesus and for the word of God, and those who had not worshiped the beast or its image and had not received its mark on their foreheads or their hands. They came to life and reigned with Christ for a thousand years.

 

[aspen]

And that's the bottom line. It's a clear warning. The wise will take heed. Eternity is at stake.

Ok....I guess it can be seen as a warning. I just don't like how it is used to threaten sinners by Christians.

What's the difference?

I guess I see Paul as a man who is a kind father - a person who loves his children and wants to see them (us) sanctified. He is not heavy-handed. He is not desperately trying to save people from the pit of Hell. He is secure in his relationship with God and trusts that God is going to be faithful to His flock. I think he is a teacher, but also an excited observer to God's work in the lives of the members of the Body of Christ. I think he is passionate - and that passion comes across as anger/desperation/impatience to some people who like to twist Paul into an ogre. I am not talking about you, BTW.


I think I worked out what I mean. I think Paul is warning about a condition of the heart......not bad behavior. Of course, the bad behavior causes the condition of the heart and therefore must be repented of; however, Paul is not singling out specific sins or sinners - he is warning us that if we choose a worldly lifestyle we will be incapable of being sanctified and transformed.

 

[Duckybill]

Ok....I guess it can be seen as a warning. I just don't like how it is used to threaten sinners by Christians.

You make a valid point.

I guess I see Paul as a man who is a kind father - a person who loves his children and wants to see them (us) sanctified. He is not heavy-handed. He is not desperately trying to save people from the pit of Hell. He is secure in his relationship with God and trusts that God is going to be faithful to His flock. I think he is a teacher, but also an excited observer to God's work in the lives of the members of the Body of Christ. I think he is passionate - and that passion comes across as anger/desperation/impatience to some people who like to twist Paul into an ogre. I am not talking about you, BTW.

If we are "trying to save people from the pit of Hell" then why not get "desperate"? I see nothing wrong with that whatsoever.

- he is warning us that if we choose a worldly lifestyle we will be incapable of being sanctified and transformed.

I don't understand your meaning. Catholic doctrine maybe?

 

[Rach1370]

[/size]

I think I worked out what I mean. I think Paul is warning about a condition of the heart......not bad behavior. Of course, the bad behavior causes the condition of the heart and therefore must be repented of; however, Paul is not singling out specific sins or sinners - he is warning us that if we choose a worldly lifestyle we will be incapable of being sanctified and transformed.

Hey Aspen, I always thought that the condition of the heart caused and was revealed by the behaviour, not the other way around. For example, for the opposite...our good behaviour comes from a new heart, not: we get a new heart from good behaviour.

I always thought that most of people's bad behaviour comes from 2 basic sins: pride and idolatry. Pride is self explanatory....everyone suffers from it. I think it was Augustine who said "Pride is a mother, pregnant with all the other sins." It's the original sin, the sin that allowed our first parents and everyone after them to believe we have the right to be gods of our own lives. Make the choices and determine how we should and are going to live our lives. And idolatry....whatever people claim as most important in their lives; the thing they think on, behave on, have to have...we have made that our functional god. I think that to be free in Jesus means we are free of anything in this life that calls us to be dependant on certain behaviours, needs etc. For a homosexual to turn from their feelings and pursue holiness, I think it has to come through that freedom in Christ.

What do you think, you know, since your all knowledgeable on psychology stuff?!

 

[Foreigner]

So addicts can't be Christian?

-- Aspen, why are you intentionally being obtuse?

You know darn well they can. The person who is addicted, regardless of the addiction can no only be a Christian, but can be delivered from that addiction.

I have seen drug addicts miraculously cured.
I have seen alcoholics go through treatment and are no longer alcoholics and through God's help do not have a relapse.
I have seen those with a pornography addiction get counseling and with help from the Holy Spirit have remained pure (but vigilant because temptation is prevelant everywhere).



As to the comments of others:

Paul said, "The very things I hate I end up doing. The things I want to do I just don't do."
That meant that he struggled with sin. He worked hard to overcome and God obviously used him mightily, but he still struggled.
The reason he was used mightily is not because he was perfect, but he STROVE to be perfect in Christ.

To say "this is the way I am. God made me this way so he isn't going to judge me." or "There is nothing I am able to do about my problem/addiction so I can't he held accountable for what I do" is not going to cut it.

Words from a children's song sum it up perfectly. "...they are weak but He is strong."

God doesn't expect you to take care of this through your own power, but at times he does say to do your very best and He'll carry you the rest of the way.