Rach
I appreciate your willingness to discuss this topic. I read your post paragraph by paragraph and commented as I read. Hope it makes sense.
4. People can only repent of sins that they acknowledge with their minds and hearts and will. Many people have no idea they are actually sinning.
5. Most people who care about Jesus, care about His sacrifice.
6. I think admitting you have a sin problem and becoming aware of it and talking freely with God about it is really what God wants. Adam and Eve were evasive. We are still human and still learning to love as God want us to. God wants a humble heart with a desire to obey.
Hey Aspen. I'll only reply to some of your points, otherwise it'll start to get way too long!!
* It's true that sometimes we are oblivious to sin in our lives. That's why we're told to pray the Spirit convicts us. Pride and stubbornness can get in the way of our hearing Him, but I truly believe that any willing and humble Christian will be led to see what is hindering their walk with Jesus.
* It's easy to say we care about His sacrifice, but do those Christians who actively embrace the sin in their lives really care? 'Jesus, I know you died horribly for my sins, but I really like doing/thinking/saying this, so despite the fact that it's bad enough to need your death, I'm going to keep doing it.' Doesn't sound like respect to me. Granted it's not as easy as stopping your sinful actions dead on. But I'm talking about people who don't even see the need to change their behaviours or action. Thoroughly unrepentant Christians. Kinda an oxymoron really, but they're out there.
* Certainly seeing and admitting the sin is an important first step. But we are told repeatedly to "put our sin to death". That's fairly strong wording. It implies that it's a daily battle, an ongoing war against the nature we were born with opposing the nature we received when we received Jesus into our lives. The two are opposed, like oil and water. But as Christ is stronger we should battle with the sure knowledge that if we hold true to Him we will eventually triumph. Sin has no hold over us while we keep that in mind.
1. The souls of gay people are in God's hands.
2. I think homosexuality needs to be normalized - not justified, but treated like every other sin that does not disqualify people from the family of God.
3. I have never claimed that homosexuality was not a sin.
4. Yeah, it is a logical fallacy to justify the condemnation of homosexuals for fornication when you refuse to allow them to marry.
5. Isn't our sin and the sanctification of our souls between God and us?
6. I think it is more damaging to deal with homosexuals by rejecting them, which leads to bitterness and resentment and hatred towards God.
7. Accepting the sinner is not accepting the sin. I do not advocate teaching anyone that homosexuality is acceptable - I simply think that shunning them is wrong and not helpful.
* Yup, the souls of everyone are in God's hand. But should we mislead people into thinking their sin is okay in the eyes of God? Luke 17:1 says: "Temptations to sin are sure to come, but woe to the one through whom they come!"
* I have never claimed that homosexuality is worse than any other sin...it is not. Perhaps, because of the nature of it, it may be harder for the person to live with/deal with. But as far as sin goes, it is equal.
* Of course it's between God and the person. But we are told to encourage and convict one another. It's a support system. You may think it is unloving of me to say homosexuality is a sin, but if their behaviour is going to lead them away from God, it is not. It is because we are sometimes blind to our own sins that we need our brothers and sisters to support us and to lovingly open our eyes. It is only because of other sinful behaviours that these things become hurtful and unhelpful.
* Christian society in general has not handled the homosexual issue well, or lovingly. They have either condemned or labelled it fine with God. Neither is the correct approach. Can you imagine how hard it must be for gay people? Sexuality is such a huge part of a person. Everyone has desires and needs, but for 'straight' people all our needs can be met in a relationship and marriage that is acceptable to society, community and God. It's so easy for us in that regard. But while I truly feel for these people, I will not compromise on what God has told us to be true. Sexual Immorality is a sin. These people need more love, more understanding and more support from us, not ostracism. If it is harder for them to overcome, of course we need to be there for them. But being there for them does NOT mean allowing them to feel God is cool with them embracing their 'lifestyle'. Does this make sense? Christianity should not accept the unrepentant, defiant lifestyle of anyone confessing Christ, but living happily with their sin. Any sin.
1. I think we are running into a difference of definitions. I define homosexuality as same sex attraction. It appears that you believe that homosexuality is confined to the sexual act.
2. Every homosexual couple I know either cherishes the relationship they have or are looking for a partner to love.
3. Have you tried to tell anyone of the regulars here on this board whose posts are full of arrogance and contempt that they maybe out of line? How did that work for you? They do not listen because they do not see their sin - all they see from us is an unwarranted attack. Just think how much more futile it is to tell a homosexual that the Bible says that they are a sinner? First, they have heard the same message all their lives - second they have heard rejection messages from family and peers - third, they have told themselves that they are worthless and hated by God. How do you expect them to receive your cognitive message graciously and with an open mind and a new outlook? It is like informing a person who has been fat their whole lives that they really might be overweight and they should probably think about going on a diet - gluttony is a sin, you know.
* No, I define homosexuality as people who have same sex attraction. But I believe that people can still have those desires, but live as Christ has called them...not giving in to those desires, not having a relationship with someone of the same sex. Just the same as every other sinner in the world can choose to live for Jesus, and fight the sin within them every day.
* I do not doubt even slightly that these people genuinely and fully love. My point is not that, nor is it whether they should be seen as equal to others, socially, politically etc...they should. That should all be besides the point...the real issue needs to be what God thinks. And God has said no. It's that simple. No. People don't like to hear it, no one likes to hear they're wrong...but it doesn't stop them from being wrong! The message doesn't (at least it shouldn't) change, but we do need to learn to get it across without doing damage. Every message of Christ should be told with love, acceptance and understanding. Doesn't change the message, just the telling of it.
1. Only human will can limit God. He desires all of us to be saved, but if we refuse His justification and sanctification, we remain broken humans, incapable of fulfilling our created purpose to love perfectly. I certainly do not want to help anyone, homosexual or heretic or Christian to form bitterness towards God.
2. If overweight people and addicted people and Biblical figures who had more than one wife can be in a saving relationship with Jesus, so can a homosexual.
* Not arguing that a homosexual can't be saved. Anyone can be saved! Just look at some of the characters that Jesus called to Him in the new Testament! But what did all those people have in common? They repented and turned away from their sin. Matthew, a tax collector...a thief...repented, left everything to follow Jesus. Jesus said "I have not come to call the righteous but sinners to repentance." (Luke 5:31) And of course Zacchaeus, another tax collector - he gave away most of his wealth and paid back everyone he had ripped off. Paul? He was a murderer, a persecutor, but when Jesus called him, he repented and turned away from his sinful nature and called himself the very worst of sinners.
Jesus Himself told us it would be hard to follow Him: "If anyone would come after me, let him deny himself and take up his cross daily and follow me." (Luke 9:18) We must repent of our sins to be saved (Luke 13:1-5). People will always struggle with their sin nature, no matter what it is, but we must not convince ourselves or others that the sin has no weight.
1. Fair enough. Unfortunately, we have already crossed that line. Consumerism is not only acceptable, it is glorified. Pastor John Hagee and Pastor Jerry Falwell are and were hugely overweight and not only got to be pastors but got to speak for the Christian community. Now, they appeared unable to manage their own bodies, let alone their households - should Hagee step down.
2. I know more than a handful of pastors that are openly arrogant. One even jokes that he really struggles with pride - instead of firing him, the congregation has a good chuckle. Now, if this pastor said that he really struggled with lusting over men - he would be fired as soon as the words were processed by the same congregation.
* Sadly their are many Pastors that do not hold up to the standards they should, that are set down in Timothy. However, I think it behooves us to be very careful making accusations against them when we do not have a full picture of who they are or what they teach. I do not know Hagee or Falwell, so I cannot comment. I do wonder if the other pastor you mentioned is Mark Driscoll? He does mention his issues with pride, but I must caution you...the man does have a sense of humour and while it may not tickle everyone's funny bone, you cannot fault his teaching. He teaches straight from scripture and every single point the man makes focuses on Jesus. He does admit to battling pride but you can see, hear that he fights it. Pride, after all, is the mother sin. Every single human alive has it. I admire his teaching because he doesn't just point his finger, he shares his struggles and triumphs through the help of the Spirit.