Homosexuality

[Rach1370]

With all due respect ...I disagree. If someone divorces and remarries and is accepted into membership by the Church then so too should a homosexual, no ifs, ands or buts.

I disagree with your disagreement...

The comparison between divorce in the church and homosexuals in the Church is a difficult one...for all the different reasons I listed above.
To make things more visible, you need to look at the heart. Of the matter and of people.
The person who fronts up to the Church committee and tells them that he see no reason to stop stealing...that stealing is not wrong at all, in fact they must not only decree that stealing is okay, but that they make him a member of a Church...a Church that follows someone who says stealing is wrong.
An honest, repentant, Spirit indwelt Christian who has made a mistake...sinned even, and had their life broken by it (and that is how sin effects us), but in the grace of God have moved on, is NOT THE SAME as someone who is demanding that their sin be made right in the sight of God. That we pretend that God says that it's just fine for them to continue on in something he says is a sin...unrepentant, unceasing. It is not the same...and we can tell by the heart. One is broken, the other is indignant.

As for someone 'living in sin' before repentence, they would still be 'living in sin' after repentence unless the situation is changed.

Exactly. That is my point. If a homosexual came into a church and said "I have been living in a homosexual relationship, but recognise that it's sinful...I want to be a Christian and repent and live a life for Christ"...and then they stopped living in a homosexual relationship....indeed did not intend to engage in homosexual relations, then of course they would be welcome into the membership, with all the rest of the "ex" sinners. (I say "ex" that way because none of us are perfect...we all stumble and fall, sometimes back into old sin, sometimes into new sin.) The point being that the person does not rock up to church and say "I wish to love and follow Jesus...except that part where he said homosexuality (or whatever) is a sin and to repent and stop. I don't think Jesus knew what he was talking about. So I'm going to ignore that bit, but demand that you accept me...him too...exactly as I am and in the relationship I'm in. God has no business in whom I'm having sex with."

Annulment of such a marriage and a vow of life-long celibacy or reconciliation with the former spouse would be the actual evidence of repentence. I realize that this is not a practical solution, I quickly add, and I'm not personally suggesting that anyone do this. But then, neither am I against homosexuals in the Church. Anyway, the 'divorce/remarrieds' situation has become very problematic for the Church. To insist on annulment for unbiblical marriages would result in huge membership loss as well as heartache for many. Since the Church cannot afford this it therefore tends to sweep divorce/remarriage under the carpet in the hope that no one will question it.

This just cannot work. Now...before I go on, I will say that it will always be better, more faithful, more biblical, more godly, to stay with your spouse, whom you have a covenant before God with. Everything should be done to make this happen. But as I mentioned before sometimes NOTHING can be done. I know of many examples where one side systematically abused (in different ways, but abuse non the less) the other, and refused, point blank to see what they were doing, admit to it, or entertain the idea that they were sinning and needed to repent, turn and reconcile with their spouse. You say that homosexuals should be allowed in Church because God's down with anything that's "love"....or some such thing....and yet you want to suggest that God demands that an abused spouse must live with that forever, amen? You miss the point where God says homosexuality is a sin....and so is abuse. The moment that abusive spouse put themselves and their wants, feelings and needs above their other, they have broken the marriage covenant where they promised before God to love their wife as the Church...laying down their lives for her. So clearly there is biblical grounds for divorce...and it's not just a simple matter of "he smacked her around"....abuse comes in many forms. Sometimes it's not abuse outright but persistent sin. It may even be on both sides. It may be that neither one realise that repentance and forgiveness is needed for reconciliation until divorce is between them, and then it may be too late...to much hurt is there and one or both side cannot trust. This is not good or godly, but unless both are willing to repent and reconcile, it won't happen. There are also situations where one side just leaves...they run off with another person, they leave behind the responsibility. It happens. So in many, many cases a person is left bereft of a spouse, and in time they find both love and commitment again. In such cases the bible gives us an idea how to respond:

But if the unbelieving partner separates, let it be so. In such cases the brother or sister is not enslaved. God has called you to peace. (1 Corinthians 7:15 ESV)

As far as your idea to "annul" the 'new' marriage to go back to being single or reconcile with a spouse...you are actually justify one sin, to 'fix' another. If they have "cleaved" to another person in front of God and become one flesh with them, to leave them would to be committing 'divorce' all over again, forsaking their new vows. As we know, in God's grace we don't hold to "two wrongs make a right"...we don't even hold to "fix your own messes"....no...we hold to the fact that despite our less than perfect natures, despite our inevitable stuff ups, Jesus has paid our price and we must go forward, repenting as we go, holding onto his love and walking in his nature.

 

[JB_Reformed Baptist]

Absolute unadulterated garbage! Those who make claims such as this need to provide actual evidence that homosexuals are REALLY no more than 'deviant' heterosexuals or otherwise retract such statements! The majority here - even though few in number - would last no more than 10 seconds in an actual scientific debate on this topic. Ignorance under the guize of pious authority is still ignorance!


You are skating on very thin ice here, SIM, with your accusatory tone toward anyone that doesn't believe as you do. There are quite a number of Christian denominations - and growing in number - throughout the world who are 'gay friendly' and yet they still call themselves Christians, i.e. they are followers of Jesus Christ. I'm one of them. Okay?



Except that this Newsflash! is intended only for others who call themselves something and not you, right?


Do you believe that nonChristians will finish up in a place called hell where they will be tormented forever and ever? Do you believe that NOT to believe such a thing proves that one is not a Christian?


While you might obect to them protesting funerals of service members, do you also object to their parading "Fags Must Die: See Leviticus 20:13" banners?


Where does God ever make the claim in the Bible that the words in the Bible are "God's own words"? That's a serious question, by the way. Furthermore, there are MANY words in the Bible ...some of which are most cruel and tyrannical and go against the grain of any decent human being. So, which words are we talking about? Again, that's a serious question that requires more than an insulting one-liner telling me how ignorant I am.



(1) Good question ...JUST WHAT IS IT about homosexuality that drives you mad resulting in people feeling the need to defend themselves when they should not have to? (2) why should one who has nothing to do with a harmless involuntary feeling have to accept - because YOU said so - that this feeling is a sin?

(3) Then don't participate in bestiality. (4) Um ...one involves a human being, the other an animal. I thought you knew that.

(5) I have no idea. I don't believe in demons.

(6) Okay . . .make mine black with one sugar.

(7) Do you have another religion in mind . . .? I must confess that I am being turned off mainstream Christianity since it often preaches a message that is contrary to that of Jesus.

Haha, got under your skin, hey! Of course homosexuality and it's variants are sexual desire's gone perverted. "Deviant heterosexuals' turned homosexual, that's brilliant. I'm going to use that. Thanks Kid!

 

[dragonfly]

Hi Jack,

Quote


There is no evidence that sexual abuse causes a heterosexual person to change their sexual orientation to be homosexual; this is pretty well documented now. The vast majority homosexuals have never been sexually abused, just like the vast majority heterosexuals never have been sexual abused. Of those who have been sexually abused, their sexual orientation remains unchanged. Sexual abuse can have a huge (negative) impact on a person's sexual behavior. Sexual origination and sexual behavior are not the same.

Your 'vast majority' statements may be correct, but there is ABUNDANT EVIDENCE that homosexual attractions and activities can be induced by certain kinds of same-sex abuse by (usually) an older, sexually experienced, abuser.

It is also true that same-sex abuse may not result in this outcome. Unless you're prepared to read up on, or think very deeply about, the dynamics of child development and how different sorts of abuse affect it - remembering that each child is an individual personality who is already being impregnated with attitudes from its parents, and receiving additional cultural direction on how to think and live its life - you will continue to make superficial comments on the subject in hand.

Quote


A person's sexual orientation does not change with religious beliefs. Religious beliefs may help guide a person's sexual behavior\choices, but it never changes their sexual interests.

Religious beliefs cannot - as you rightly state - be expected to affect a person's sexual orientation. That's why this discussion is NOT about 'religious beliefs'. It's about the real, living, true God who sent His Son Jesus Christ to be a real propitiation for the real sins of the world and to break the real hold of (the real spiritual adversary), Satan over every single human being who lived or lives; (I'm hoping you acknowledge that human beings are all 'real'.) and about how this very real God can become the very real life-source in a real human being's life, where correcting fautly neuro-physiological responses is eminently possible to Him, given the desire and active co-operation of the recipient of His Spirit. If you don't know about this aspect of a relationship with Jesus Christ, even though it is patently described in different ways in the New Testament, then the 'Christian' 'religion' to which you have been introduced, is a sham.

The apostle Paul writes about the renewing of the mind both by name an by implication, again and again in his epistles. The whole 'as a man thinks, so he is', is vindicated by the various ways he describes the experience of living as a born again believer in very real relationship with Jesus Christ and God our Father, through the Holy Spirit.

Perhaps your BIble study would be transformed if you approached it through God's eyes of faith - that what He says, can come into being, in the same way as He said, 'Let there be light', and there was light (four days before there was a sun). It is that kind of faith in which a Christian is EXPECTED to dwell with Him, where things that 'do not yet appear', can (and do) appear. (Because faith comes by hearing, and hearing comes by the word of God heard by the one to whom He speaks.)

Romans 12:1 and 2 are an excellent place to start, for any new believer who is turning away from homosexual responses.

If you study the Greek words used to describe homosexual behaviour, and how a person can be tempted to accept it, you can begin to see that it does NOT start with the innocent child who was born with normal chromosomes for sexual identity.

Ephesians 2:1 - 3 describe 'the prince of the power of the air' affecting every person who lives. He is 'the spirit who now works' to draw out the disobedience (unbelief) of people, whom (elsewhere) Paul states, ALL 'knew God'.

These are simple facts from scripture's claims, of why God holds all people responsible for the decisions they make regarding the extent to which they allow Him and their knowledge of His existence (His existence IS a universal truth.) to modify their responses to creation and created beings. He hopes for appropriate responses (to His existence) and these are expressed by examples throughout the Old Testament narrative, the Psalms, the law and the prophets; as is also expressed God's possible responses to people who know better, when they fail to deliver to Him an appropriately compliant-with-His-word response.

In all this, God is just. He knows how dense we are because of sin, but He also knows that when He speaks, we can and do hear Him, and that His word is able to create a correct response in the hearer: Romans 10:17. On this very simple premise - God's word and the power and fidelity of God's word - hangs 'the way of salvation', to all fallen human beings, including those damaged by homosexual behaviour. Naturally, it includes correction from every kind of idolatry, and God is faithful to show the whole-hearted comer-to-Him, where they themselves have not recognised 'idols' in their hearts. 2 Cor 10:4 - 6.

Yours, and KC's fundamentally unbelieving-in-God's-power attitudes, do nothing to endorse your implied testimony of being in relationship with this very God, described in scripture, and the foregoing paragraphs of this post.



Hi Rex,

I hear you, brother. That is a great couple of verses in Revelation 22.

However, we are exhorted by Paul not to 'weary' in 'well-doing'.

 

[KingJ]

My advice to those that can't stop beating there heads against the wall

Rev 22:10-12

Thanks for that verse. This is the verse that ends it for me, Rom 1:32 Who knowing the judgment of God, that they which commit such things are worthy of death, not only do the same, but have pleasure in them that do them.

Is it surprising that a wolf keep harassing the sheep?

^^ Check out the Klan website, they are very clear about being a christian organization that promotes racism and denounces homosexuality. Maybe you believe they represent the mainstream, but their membership peeked decades ago and has been dwindling ever since.

It seems you completely missed my point.

You are skating on very thin ice here, SIM, with your accusatory tone toward anyone that doesn't believe as you do. There are quite a number of Christian denominations - and growing in number - throughout the world who are 'gay friendly' and yet they still call themselves Christians, i.e. they are followers of Jesus Christ. I'm one of them. Okay?

This makes me laugh! You know the scripture that speaks of evil becoming good in the last days. Yet you still boast that there is a growing number of gay churches and you are a member....are you really that blind to draw the parallel?

 

[dragonfly]

Isaiah 5:20 Woe unto them that call evil good, and good evil;
that put darkness for light, and light for darkness;
that put bitter for sweet, and sweet for bitter!

21 Woe unto them that are wise in their own eyes,
and prudent in their own sight!

22 Woe unto them that are mighty to drink wine,
and men of strength to mingle strong drink:
23 Which justify the wicked for reward,
and take away the righteousness of the righteous from him!

24 Therefore as the fire devoureth the stubble,
and the flame consumeth the chaff,
so their root shall be as rottenness,
and their blossom shall go up as dust:
because they have cast away the law of the Lord of hosts,
and despised the word of the Holy One of Israel.
25 Therefore is the anger of the Lord kindled against his people,



Romans 1:18 For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who hold the truth in unrighteousness; 19 Because that which may be known of God is manifest in them; for God hath shewed it unto them...

they are without excuse: 21 Because that, when they knew God, they glorified him not as God, neither were thankful; but became vain in their imaginations, and their foolish heart was darkened. 22 Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools,

24 Wherefore God also gave them up to uncleanness through the lusts of their own hearts

25 Who changed the truth of God into a lie, and worshipped and served the creature more than the Creator

26 For this cause God gave them up unto vile affections:


'... receiving in themselves that recompence of their error which was meet. 28 And even as they did not like to retain God in their knowledge, God gave them over to a reprobate mind, to do those things which are not convenient; 29 Being filled with all unrighteousness ...'



2 Thessalonians 2:8 And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming: 9 Even him, whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders, 10 And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved.

11 And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie: 12 That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness.

13 But we are bound to give thanks alway to God for you, brethren beloved of the Lord, because God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth:


Revelation 22:12 And, behold, I come quickly; and my reward is with me, to give every man according as his work shall be. 13 I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end, the first and the last.

14 Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city. 15 For without are dogs, and sorcerers, and whoremongers, and murderers, and idolaters, and whosoever loveth and maketh a lie. 16 I Jesus have sent mine angel to testify unto you these things in the churches...'




Jack and KC please note: the love of the truth is something you can receive. 2 Thessalonians 2:10

 

[JackSafari]

...Your 'vast majority' statements may be correct, but there is ABUNDANT EVIDENCE that homosexual attractions and activities can be induced by certain kinds of same-sex abuse by (usually) an older, sexually experienced, abuser.

...

I agree that sexual abuse can cause all kind of sexual problems and confusion for the person how has been abused, therefore all sex abuse is always bad.

I am not suggesting that homosexuals don't commit sexual abuse. I am saying being homosexual does not cause a person sexually abuse another person, which is a myth that often use used to label homosexuality as being immoral. Fringe organizations love to claim "All Homosexuals want to have sex with boys, therefore we need to pass laws to make it illegal to be a homosexual"

And yes, sexual abuse can lead to sexual behavioral problems to the point of where sex abuse becomes a generational problem. Sex abuse never causes a change in a person's sexual orientation, even if the abuse has cause a huge change in their sexual behavior. Just like a person never can change their skin color no matter what happens to them. Bi-Sexual people will engage in homosexual behavior even though they are not exclusively homosexual. Bi-sexual people may limit their homosexual behavior to very rare occasions such as the sexual abuse of children, but this is no way a reflection of homosexuality as a whole, just like there no reason to assume all heterosexual men are likely to rape and sexual abuse anyone. The vast majority of homosexual and heterosexual adults never ever sexually abuse anyone.

 

[Foreigner]

Christianity has always been changing, and will continue to change, it is God's will that it continue to evolve to an even wiser religion that it has been in the past.

-- Yeah, you're ridiculous.

The root word of 'Christianity' is 'Christ.' Jesus Christ

"Jesus Christ is the same yesterday, today, and forever." - Hebrews 13:8

To say that Christianity will "continue to evolve" and be an "even wiser religion" is to question the validity of scripture itself.

As usual, in order for people like you to try to validate your position you must first either call scripture into question or apply today's standards to something that "is the same yesterday, today and forever."

The results - as is obvious here - is that you are wrong and are going to have a very uncomfortable conversation when you stand before the God whose Word you are trying to pervert.

 

[JackSafari]

....

If you don't know about this aspect of a relationship with Jesus Christ, even though it is patently described in different ways in the New Testament, then the 'Christian' 'religion' to which you have been introduced, is a sham.
....

I am always asking myself "What would Jesus do?"

And for the purpose of this forum and disccsion, I do not beleive he would call people names and call them liars when he know they are simply stating what they honestly belief to be the truth. I know beyond all doubt that a person's sexuality is not a moral crime, but I will not label others as liars and call them names simply because they disagree. I doubt Jesus would attempt to sway anyone by insulting them either, which seem to be pretty common here as well, and not the type of Christianity that I practice. I don't go back to my church and bad mouth people I meet in person on online, and if I did, other members of my church would suggest I need ask myself my behavior was justified.

-- Yeah, you're ridiculous.
.

Simply evaluate for yourself the history of Christianity and how it changes over the decades and centuries. Back in the 1800s and before, slavery was fully supported through out Christianity and now its not. In the 1600s people were burned at the stake for being witches, while people quoted the bible justifying those very cruel deaths. These are just two clear and obvious changes that marked low points for which Christianity has grown beyond. If Christian beliefs had never changed, such beliefs would still be with us today. Its not the bible that caused Christianity to change, it has been Christians changing to be more Christ like, and it continues to this day.,

--

The results - as is obvious here - is that you are wrong and are going to have a very uncomfortable conversation when you stand before the God whose Word you are trying to pervert.

I have no fear of facing God and saying "I stand by what I know is right, and inclusion is always right".

 

[dragonfly]

Hi Jack,

I'll tackle your replies in the order they fall easily to hand.

I am always asking myself "What would Jesus do?"

While this has become part of modern, pop-Christian culture, you won't find it in scripture in the way that it reads in your quote. A born again Christian has a Father in heaven from whom he/she receives guidance by listening, and by whom answers to prayer are granted by being in agreement with His will - which again... is learned by listening to His guidance. The Holy Spirit is the enabler of these communications. This may result in a walk with God which has the same appearance as you suggest, but all the guesswork and unregenerate thinking has been taken out of the equation.

And for the purpose of this forum and disccsion, I do not beleive he would call people names and call them liars when he know they are simply stating what they honestly belief to be the truth.

Here, again, you are making yourself the judge of what is right or wrong, and then adding total sincerity as the seal of approval (by yourself) as if God is going to agree with your sincerity, no matter how far off agreement-with-His-word you are. 'The truth' is not what you think it is, just because you think it. The Truth is objective. Jesus Christ is the Truth. He is THE Word of God incarnate. As a statement of Truth made over two millennia ago, He cannot be over-ruled by your sincere belief of disinformation.

He can, nevertheless, lead you into all truth by the power of His Holy Spirit, if you are willing to be led. This is where your sincerity can be helpful to you, if you want to know the Truth Himself, rather than guess at it. There isn't a person alive who turned to Christ, who didn't have to give up some 'sincerely' held opinion. Many from Christian backgrounds had a mistaken notion of how salvation actually works, until they fully gave their lives to Christ. You won't be wondering 'What would Jesus do?' You will know exactly what He wants you to do, if you are listening to His voice.

I agree that sexual abuse can cause all kind of sexual problems and confusion for the person how has been abused, therefore all sex abuse is always bad.

I am not suggesting that homosexuals don't commit sexual abuse. I am saying being homosexual does not cause a person sexually abuse another person, which is a myth that often use used to label homosexuality as being immoral. Fringe organizations love to claim "All Homosexuals want to have sex with boys, therefore we need to pass laws to make it illegal to be a homosexual"

And yes, sexual abuse can lead to sexual behavioral problems to the point of where sex abuse becomes a generational problem. Sex abuse never causes a change in a person's sexual orientation, even if the abuse has cause a huge change in their sexual behavior. Just like a person never can change their skin color no matter what happens to them. Bi-Sexual people will engage in homosexual behavior even though they are not exclusively homosexual. Bi-sexual people may limit their homosexual behavior to very rare occasions such as the sexual abuse of children, but this is no way a reflection of homosexuality as a whole, just like there no reason to assume all heterosexual men are likely to rape and sexual abuse anyone. The vast majority of homosexual and heterosexual adults never ever sexually abuse anyone.

I've read your post carefully. Clearly, you did not understand mine. Let me say this again, with bigger spaces between the statements:


'There is ABUNDANT EVIDENCE that homosexual attractions and activities can be induced in the recipient
by certain kinds of same-sex abuse by (usually) an older, sexually experienced, abuser.'



You need 'to read up on, or think very deeply about, the dynamics of child development and how different sorts of abuse affect it -

remembering that each child is an individual personality who is already being impregnated with attitudes from its parents, and receiving additional

cultural direction on how to think and live its life - ' to enable you to make more knowledgeable 'comments on the subject in hand.'



[Although I prefaced the following in a longer sentence, the content of this section is key to understanding my reason for believing sexual orientation can be changed by God.

Do you know there is a tendancy, in nature, for organisms to revert to their normal state, given the correct conditions?]



'God can become the very real life-source in a real human being's life, where correcting fautly neuro-physiological responses is eminently possible to Him, given the desire and active co-operation of the recipient of His Spirit.'




In other words: a person who was consciously heterosexual in orientation, who receives or has received homosexual stimulation, repeated often enough that they themselves develop a desire for it, can have the effects of that homosexual stimulation reversed by God.



New comment

Although you probably don't believe that there are unclean spirits involved in the practising of sexual perversions (including homo-sexual activities), there are (unclean spirits involved) and part of the restoration of the soul which has been afflicted by them, is deliverance from them, and healing.

In case you've never taken 'deliverance' seriously, despite the extensive coverage it receives in the NT, one key factor required in the person who seeks deliverance, is that they have both desired, and decided they want to be freed from the unclean spirit(s).

Or, if the afflicted is a child, its parents may bring it to the Lord for deliverance, because they see that the behaviour brought about by the unclean spirit, is unhealthy and detrimental to their child's well-being.

 

[JackSafari]

I agree that your perception of the truth, but its only you're perspective. It is not inclusive, therefore others are rejected based on higly debatable set up conditions that nobody can agree upon. I have unquestionable faith that God in inclusive, not exclusive.

 

[KCKID]

-- Yeah, you're ridiculous.

That retort was given for this comment from Jack Safari: 'Christianity has always been changing, and will continue to change, it is God's will that it continue to evolve to an even wiser religion that it has been in the past.'

Regardless of the topic subject I'm disappointed - at the very least - when the best that professed Christians can do is to belittle someone with remarks like "Yeah, you're ridiculous." While there are one or two others on this thread who pat one another on the back for their rudeness, it should be borne in mind that visitors to the forum also browse through these threads and may not be too impressed with the belittling tone toward others by some of the Christians on it.

The root word of 'Christianity' is 'Christ.' Jesus Christ

I think that most of us know this. Do you? ...I mean, really?

"Jesus Christ is the same yesterday, today, and forever." - Hebrews 13:8

To say that Christianity will "continue to evolve" and be an "even wiser religion" is to question the validity of scripture itself.

No, it is not. It is questioning those whose minds are stagnating in the past with their legalism as opposed to love as per Jesus.

As usual, in order for people like you to try to validate your position you must first either call scripture into question or apply today's standards to something that "is the same yesterday, today and forever."

"People like you ..." *sigh*

The results - as is obvious here - is that you are wrong and are going to have a very uncomfortable conversation when you stand before the God whose Word you are trying to pervert.

Interpretation: My righteousness exceeds that of yours and - by golly - I'll let you know it! If there is one sin that might weigh more than than another it would surely have to be the sin of pride. You know, Foreigner, Jesus had many a conversation with those who had an attitude similar to yours. They puffed themselves up and believed that they were better than others. Jesus put them in their place. You can read about them in the Gospels. I would suggest that you do that.

 

[JackSafari]

.

"People like you ..." *sigh*.

I had the same reaction.

 

[SilenceInMotion]

Absolute unadulterated garbage! Those who make claims such as this need to provide actual evidence that homosexuals are REALLY no more than 'deviant' heterosexuals or otherwise retract such statements! The majority here - even though few in number - would last no more than 10 seconds in an actual scientific debate on this topic. Ignorance under the guize of pious authority is still ignorance!

The claim that homosexuality is unnatural was made at the foundations of mankind. Those such as yourself are the one's wh osay it is natural, or in other words, making stuff up.

You want to have a *scientific debate* with me?

Alright, first things first- where is the evidence that homosexuality is an inborn trait?

You've already lost. Way to go.

The garbage is ignoring where the Bible states homosexuals will not inherit the kingdom and then going on a convenient, arbitrary claim society made up. That's just downright preposterous and is a current stain in Christendom that needs to either be bleached out or cut out from the rest, because they are apostate of a central, very important Christian principle of natural law. It' snot simply a theological difference, it is an entire redefining of what God has put in place as the natural, universal order of mankind.

 

[Rach1370]

I agree that your perception of the truth, but its only you're perspective. It is not inclusive, therefore others are rejected based on higly debatable set up conditions that nobody can agree upon. I have unquestionable faith that God in inclusive, not exclusive.

Ummm. Can I just point out that God is incredible exclusive?
In the OT he included the Jews but excluded everyone else. Even his inclusion of Israel was based on very strict laws and rules, and we saw that the minute they turned from those things he brought judgement upon them...his own people.
Even in the NT there is exclusivity. We are told again and again that only those who are in Christ are the new people of God. We are told that many, many, will be turned away because they neither loved Jesus or followed him. You know, the whole "the path is narrow and only few find it" and "depart, I never knew you"....those kind of passages. There are plenty of them. You must begin to ask yourself that if God is 'down' with anything people call "love", then why is there so many passages in scripture that condemn sexual immorality? Even under the grace of Christ, the warnings are so very plentiful. Do you suppose it could be that the bent nature of the human heart tends to fall towards the very thing this thread is all about??

 

[dragonfly]

Hi Jack,

Rach has answered your point very clearly.

It's also clear that the people who are excluded in the end, are those who refused to be included on God's terms.

I'm not sure if you're aware of God's terms, but you don't seem to be, otherwise you would understand that everyone has to comply, or be excluded.


You and KC seem to think it's terribly unreasonable for homosexual practitioners to have to fulfil the same criteria as other would-be believers. Cultural relevance and age-old philosophical sophistry don't cut it - except to show yourselves still fallen, and unregenerate in your thinking.

 

[Rex]

Hi Rex,

I hear you, brother. That is a great couple of verses in Revelation 22.

However, we are exhorted by Paul not to 'weary' in 'well-doing'.

You mean Rev 22:10-12

Here's what Jesus said Matthew 10:14-16
And even Paul knew when to shake the dust off and move on Acts 18:4-6

You do as you like, but it's very clear to me that these two are pushing a new gospel that is homo friendly, end of story.

56 pages and counting

 

[JackSafari]

Ummm. Can I just point out that God is incredible exclusive?.

Well, we then just have a difference of opinion and beliefs.

 

[Rach1370]

Well, we then just have a difference of opinion and beliefs.

Yes, clearly. And that is completely your right...as long as you are not trying to say that your beliefs are based on what the bible tells us. Because what you are saying is opposite to what the bible is saying. It's sorta as clear as you can get actually.

 

[KCKID]

The claim that homosexuality is unnatural was made at the foundations of mankind. Those such as yourself are the one's wh osay it is natural, or in other words, making stuff up.

What is 'natural', SIM? Are you the epitome of 'naturalness'? Are you someone who we should all aspire to be like? This seems to be what you're saying. I've got news for you. I, for one, don't want to be like you. I want to be like me. A quick inner test each of us can take is to ask how effortless our lives feel. The closer to effortless our lives, the closer we are to being natural. Being natural is simply being the 'real' you, no masks, no acts, no false pretences. Natural is to reflect true self, to be at ease and assured, to live true to what naturally resonates within you to be. No texts from a book - even one purported to be divine - can possibly define the 'natural' you. As long as your intent is not to harm anyone else or yourself, hold your head up and be proud to be the natural you!

You want to have a *scientific debate* with me?

Oh no, most certainly not! Most Christians are compelled by their religious doctrine to be non-objective. I believe that those who want so fervantly to believe that homosexuality is learned or willful do so to justify their prejudice and their hostility toward gays. No, SIM, just stick to hurling words of condemnation to those you personally don't like . . .

Alright, first things first- where is the evidence that homosexuality is an inborn trait?

Science is an on-going process. That no substantiating evidence has been found yet to determine why a homosexual is a homosexual does not mean that it will not provide evidence some time in the future. The FACTS are, however, that homosexuals DO exist. FURTHERMORE, even if science DID provide evidence that homosexuality is an inborn trait you would still have the same mindset that you do now. Correct? So, why do you pretend to want evidence?

You've already lost. Way to go.

The garbage is ignoring where the Bible states homosexuals will not inherit the kingdom and then going on a convenient, arbitrary claim society made up. That's just downright preposterous and is a current stain in Christendom that needs to either be bleached out or cut out from the rest, because they are apostate of a central, very important Christian principle of natural law. It' snot simply a theological difference, it is an entire redefining of what God has put in place as the natural, universal order of mankind.

I frankly don't care what you believe the Bible to say. I believe that you've got the whole Gospel message backward. And, I think I already defined (above) fairly well what 'natural' is to a human being. Some say quite adamantly that believing in an entity that one cannot see, an entity not tangible, an entity that only a book identifies as being real is not exactly 'natural' for a professed intelligent adult to believe in. And, while you're pretending to look for scientific proof that homosexuality is an inborn trait, some could just as well ask you to show scientific evidence that God actually exists. How do you think you'd go?

 

[JackSafari]

Yes, clearly. And that is completely your right...as long as you are not trying to say that your beliefs are based on what the bible tells us. Because what you are saying is opposite to what the bible is saying. It's sorta as clear as you can get actually.

As well as everyone knows, nobody agrees 100% on the interpretation of The Bible, thus its just an endless and circular debate which has been going on for thousands of years, and simply means people disagree on what God intends, likes\dislike, etc. Debating The Scriptures do not interest me, so I do not engage in them. It does not mean I concede that other's interpretation to be universally valid, I simply agree that it their interpretation.