Homosexuality

[brightmorningstar]

Aspen2,
Thanks for the response, this is a great point.

My premise: People who believe that homosexuality (including homosexuals in the church) is acceptable behavior before God are either confused about what God believes about homosexual behavior, in denial, or purposefully being deceptive; or any combination, thereof.

Which is the key bit Amen we agree, which gives me great pleasure to say.

Therefore - it would seem to some that 1 is correct - that believers (the very word depends on it!) must believe all the tenets of Christianity to be counted as believers.

Amen.
However

Salvation is found in our belief in what Christ did for us on the Cross - not in what He taught.

oxymoron. He taught about what He did on the cross. So to believe what He did for us on the cross is to believe what He taught. Furthermore, for example in John 14 we see Jesus says that when we love Him He will be in us, and us in Him, in John 15 we see that He says if we keep His commands, we will remain in His love. So if one doesn't keep His commands one doesnt love Him and isnt in Him.
Your subsequent logic is therefore at odds with your previous statement. If one doesn’t believe the sin that Christ died to forgive us on the cross, one is deceived as to what Christ did for us on the cross.
Assume someone said they steal because they believe what Christ did for them on the cross. One cant believe what Christ did for them on the cross unless it is what He actually did.

rather than simple belief in His death (ultimate act of love for us) was not the only requirement.

Passages such as Matthew 25 show that not to be the case, to some who come and claim Lord, Lord He will say He never knew because they did not do what He teaches.

Therefore your conclusion that all believers must choose the first option, by definition, is faulty.

So as you see by definition is it correct.

HOWEVER, I do not believe, that a potential believer's belief in the first option, necessarily excludes them from being a true believer, either - so rest easy tonight

A potential believer is not a believer, they are a potential believer. Potential means it might happen. So a potential believer is not a true believer.

aspen2,

The fact is, there are much worse things a homosexual can engage in than a monogamous same-sex relationship.

Like what? What is worse than the potential of eternal death?
Are monogamous same-sex relations which lead to eternal death worse than promiscuous ones which lead to eternal death?

 

[Foreigner]

"The fact is, there are much worse things a homosexual can engage in than a monogamous same-sex relationship." - Aspen

-- If no sin is worse than another in God's eyes, then no there aren't.

 

[Rach1370]

"The fact is, there are much worse things a homosexual can engage in than a monogamous same-sex relationship." - Aspen

-- If no sin is worse than another in God's eyes, then no there aren't.

I agree. We cannot ignore, however much we want to, that the Bible tells us all sin is just that...sin, in God's eyes. I think this truth can be hard for us, because in the grand scheme of things it makes us no better than the murderer or thief. But it's not how we look at it, or want to...it's how God sees it.

 

[Kidron]

I agree. We cannot ignore, however much we want to, that the Bible tells us all sin is just that...sin, in God's eyes. I think this truth can be hard for us, because in the grand scheme of things it makes us no better than the murderer or thief. But it's not how we look at it, or want to...it's how God sees it.

I agree. We cannot ignore, however much we want to, that the Bible tells us all sin is just that...sin, in God's eyes. I think this truth can be hard for us, because in the grand scheme of things it makes us no better than the murderer or thief. But it's not how we look at it, or want to...it's how God sees it.

Its disgusting to see a professing Christian romanticising male sex partners.
Aspen should be ashamed.




K

 

[Foreigner]

Just curious Kidron.....was it difficult getting that plank out of your eye?

 

[Kidron]

Just curious Kidron.....was it difficult getting that plank out of your eye?

Well, foreigner,... as long as i have a judge like you near by, i dont worry about my "plank" sticking around ^_^.

On the other hand, it is certainly disgusting when a "brother" comes aboard a Christian forum and cheer leads for the cause of Gay Sex acts..
The only thing that is slightly more disgusting is when another "brother" defends the brother who is defending Gay Sex acts.

dont you agree, "brother"??




K

 

[aspen]

"The fact is, there are much worse things a homosexual can engage in than a monogamous same-sex relationship." - Aspen

-- If no sin is worse than another in God's eyes, then no there aren't.

I am not talking about God's perspective on sin - I am talking about the impact of sin on the whole person - there are sins that cause more damage than a monogamous same-sex relationship.

Its disgusting to see a professing Christian romanticising male sex partners.
Aspen should be ashamed.




K

LOL romanticizing? If my description of same-sex sin is romantic, you much be a real charmer! Perhaps you should be ashamed for all the 'romance' you have inflicted on others in your life..

Sorry BMS - you lost this one.

"oxymoron. He taught about what He did on the cross. So to believe what He did for us on the cross is to believe what He taught. Furthermore, for example in John 14 we see Jesus says that when we love Him He will be in us, and us in Him, in John 15 we see that He says if we keep His commands, we will remain in His love. So if one doesn't keep His commands one doesnt love Him and isnt in Him.
Your subsequent logic is therefore at odds with your previous statement. If one doesn’t believe the sin that Christ died to forgive us on the cross, one is deceived as to what Christ did for us on the cross.
Assume someone said they steal because they believe what Christ did for them on the cross. One cant believe what Christ did for them on the cross unless it is what He actually did."

An eyewitness report is different from the action it is reporting on. Theory (teachings) is different from practice. Jesus's teachings are sanctification - His death on the Cross is what actually saves us.

A potential believer is not a believer, they are a potential believer. Potential means it might happen. So a potential believer is not a true believer.

Correct! That is why I used the word 'potential' because I was speaking of a person who one day may become a believer.

aspen2,
Like what? What is worse than the potential of eternal death?
Are monogamous same-sex relations which lead to eternal death worse than promiscuous ones which lead to eternal death?

Are you really asking me this question? After you have been spending hours trying to convince people that even nonbelievers should follow God's laws even if they end up damned? WOW - cue the circus music....crazy!

 

[Kidron]

I am not talking about God's perspective on sin - I am talking about the impact of sin on the whole person - there are sins that cause more damage than a monogamous same-sex relationship.



LOL romanticizing? If my description of same-sex sin is romantic, you much be a real charmer! Perhaps you should be ashamed for all the 'romance' you have inflicted on others in your life..

Aspen....,

I dont romance homosexual "rights" on a Christian forum, or any forum, and im on a lot of forums.
I dont cheerlead for their cause.
I'll leave that to your jurisdiction Mr Rainbow Romance

As for me...
I dont believe that the bible tolerates 'gay sex" as "love".
I'll use Paul as my doctrinal position.
So, if you dont like my lack of tolerance for "gay sex" as "natural",
then you are just going to Hate the biblical position.
(As im certain you already do.)



K

 

[Rach1370]

I am not talking about God's perspective on sin - I am talking about the impact of sin on the whole person - there are sins that cause more damage than a monogamous same-sex relationship.

But I wonder....do we really know what sin...any sin...is doing to our souls? To really understand it, we'd have to truly understand how bad sin really is...and to do that we'd have to fully comprehend how holy God is. I don't think we're humanly capable of doing those things, so really we need to fall back on (or perhaps forward to!) faith and trust. It may seem that such a relationship is less harmful to a soul than murdering is...but we cannot know. Is it worth the damage it is very likely doing? I think we can and really must trust God here....

 

[Kidron]

It may seem that such a relationship is less harmful to a soul than murdering is...but we cannot know.

Rach, forgive me for not following the correspondence you've been having with Aspen, but.....
is your comment ive quoted suggesting that a homosexual's unnatural sexual relationship is in any way, shape, or form, or for any reason,........ OK?



K

 

[aspen]

Aspen....,

I dont romance homosexual "rights" on a Christian forum, or any forum, and im on a lot of forums.
I dont cheerlead for their cause.
I'll leave that to your jurisdiction Mr Rainbow Romance

As for me...
I dont believe that the bible tolerates 'gay sex" as "love".
I'll use Paul as my doctrinal position.
So, if you dont like my lack of tolerance for "gay sex" as "natural",
then you are just going to Hate the biblical position.
(As im certain you already do.)



K

Interesting assumption - weren't you the same guy that just called me out on another thread for not reading your OP? Perhaps you should take your own advice and read what I really believe about homosexuality rather than making assumptions?

 

[Rach1370]

Rach, forgive me for not following the correspondence you've been having with Aspen, but.....
is your comment ive quoted suggesting that a homosexual's unnatural sexual relationship is in any way, shape, or form, or for any reason,........ OK?



K

Pffft...no! Just so you know my position...I'll tell you! Homosexuals outside the church are sinning. But their sin is no different to any other sinner out there, so I would say we need to treat them with love...just as we would any other lost, blind person who desperately need Christ. For 'homosexuals' within the Church....zero tolerance. I'm not talking here of those who are Christians and struggle with these tendencies but by the grace of God are not living in a homosexual relationship. These people need our support, love and encouragement...we all struggle with our particular sins. The zero tolerance I'm talking about is the gay pastor denying it is a sin, in fact saying God supports him/her in their sinful lifestyle. This is appalling. I would also say that any member or regular attendee of Church should not be permitted to live in an out and out gay relationship. This is mocking Christ's work and no different than allowing an known adulterer or thief to sit unrepentant in the pews.

So...hope that helps clarify my position!

 

[aspen]

I agree completely with Rach - perhaps people will understand her clearly stated position better than mine.

 

[Foreigner]

Well, foreigner,... as long as i have a judge like you near by, i dont worry about my "plank" sticking around ^_^.

On the other hand, it is certainly disgusting when a "brother" comes aboard a Christian forum and cheer leads for the cause of Gay Sex acts..
The only thing that is slightly more disgusting is when another "brother" defends the brother who is defending Gay Sex acts.

dont you agree, "brother"??

-- LOL Kidron, you come to this board preaching, talking down, accusing, ridiculing, attacking........but never listening.

If you had any clue of what has transpired between Aspen and be on this topic long before you ever posted your 73 little posts, you would see I have never defended Aspen for defending homosexuality.....ever.

If you actually read back in this very thread (and several others about this topic) you would see that he and I have gone at each other tooth and nail in disagreement over the topic. We have fought, argued, discussed, referred to multiple scriptures, even indulged in name calling to each other, repented, did it again, repented again....

But we have actually read and commented on each others posts. Where the posts had multiple points, discussions and counterpoints were given for them.

Sorry to interject facts here, but you are obviously short on them.

Your total effort to interact and try to help him understand why you feel his position is wrong is to call him "shameful."

Remove that plank and get the facts or you will end up making yourself look even sillier :lol:

 

[aspen]

-- LOL Kidron, you come to this board preaching, talking down, accusing, ridiculing, attacking........but never listening.

If you had any clue of what has transpired between Aspen and be on this topic long before you ever posted your 73 little posts, you would see I have never defended Aspen for defending homosexuality.....ever.

If you actually read back in this very thread (and several others about this topic) you would see that he and I have gone at each other tooth and nail in disagreement over the topic. We have fought, argued, discussed, referred to multiple scriptures, even indulged in name calling to each other, repented, did it again, repented again....

But we have actually read and commented on each others posts. Where the posts had multiple points, discussions and counterpoints were given for them.

Sorry to interject facts here, but you are obviously short on them.

Your total effort to interact and try to help him understand why you feel his position is wrong is to call him "shameful."

Remove that plank and get the facts or you will end up making yourself look even sillier :lol:

Yep, we still disagree on this topic, but at least we understand where the other person stands on the issue. I also respect the point of view that Christians should vote what they believe is true, based on the Bible. My problem is when people mis-characterize my position and demonize me for it - Foreigner has not done this.

 

[kensapp]

We all know, from the book of Genesis, that God created man and woman. I truly understand where people from the third sex come from. They may be having a hard time controlling their emotions towards people with the same sex. But we can't deny the fact that there are gays and lesbians who is more faithful than those straight people. So, we can't totally judge them. With proper knowledge about their nature, they will be able to see their true essence as God's perfect creation.

 

[Foreigner]

But we can't deny the fact that there are gays and lesbians who is more faithful than those straight people. So, we can't totally judge them.

-- There are indeed gays and lesbians in who are more faithful that heterosexuals.
Yet they all will face the same fate, faithful gay and unfaithful heterosexual.
Just because a gay person is in a commited homosexual relationship doesn't dilute the fact that the sexual acts in that committed relationship are what God himself considers an abomination.

 

[Rach1370]

But we can't deny the fact that there are gays and lesbians who is more faithful than those straight people.

I must question this. Just because someone is a 'nice' person...perhaps even 'nicer' than many Christian people, does not mean they are being faithful and it doesn't make them saved.
If a gay person is living a lifestyle that is in direct opposition to God...instead of being 'faithful' aren't they in fact saying "in this one area God, I know better than you. I'm going to ignore what you say about this, because this is who I am. Take me with it, or leave it".

Now granted Christians are not perfect....we stuff up all the time. To become a Christian, we must acknowledge that we are sinners through and through...our thoughts, hearts and actions. But once saved we then start from a place where God knows best about everything and we are pursuing that by his grace. When we do stuff up, we repent and come back to the place where God knows best. The very fact that homosexuals are beginning their relationship with God with a "I know better", makes me think it's not faith at all...certainly not faithfulness. They want to justify continuing their lifestyle.

 

[aspen]

I must question this. Just because someone is a 'nice' person...perhaps even 'nicer' than many Christian people, does not mean they are being faithful and it doesn't make them saved.
If a gay person is living a lifestyle that is in direct opposition to God...instead of being 'faithful' aren't they in fact saying "in this one area God, I know better than you. I'm going to ignore what you say about this, because this is who I am. Take me with it, or leave it".

Now granted Christians are not perfect....we stuff up all the time. To become a Christian, we must acknowledge that we are sinners through and through...our thoughts, hearts and actions. But once saved we then start from a place where God knows best about everything and we are pursuing that by his grace. When we do stuff up, we repent and come back to the place where God knows best. The very fact that homosexuals are beginning their relationship with God with a "I know better", makes me think it's not faith at all...certainly not faithfulness. They want to justify continuing their lifestyle.

Well, you may be right, Rach - I would never advocate for a Christian to close off one area of their lives to God, however......

Are people supposed to 'get their act together' before they are allowed to follow God? I used to try and do this because I was ashamed of sinful patterns in my life. Now I have decided that it is a mind trap that keeps me separated from God. It is better to ask for forgiveness for the 10 millionth time and follow God then to be paralyzed with shame and allow bitterness and resentment to stall my sanctification. In my case it is a divorce - God hates divorce, but, for me it is a reality,, so what now? Did I just blow off 35 years of sanctification? Or is God forgiving and a provider of healing? Leading me on in my sanctification, despite my disobedience? I believe that God is forgiving and blesses a humble heart.

I wonder if it is the same way for some homosexuals - I am talking about homosexuals who know that their behavior is sinful, but have been defeated in this area of their lives. I think it might just be a matter of acknowledging their sin, yet refusing to stop loving God and others. If they are constantly submitting their lives to Christ, even in their defeated area of life, I wonder if God sees their brokenness and continues to sanctify them - ultimately healing them completely.

 

[brightmorningstar]

Aspen2,
Repeating something that is error is pointless. Again the question to you, what is worse than something that leads to eternal death?
So if its true it doesn’t matter whether one saw it oneself or got it from another’s witness, yeah? So if Jesus says He is the truth and taught the truth, its the truth. So there must be some doubt in your mind about the NT accounts.
His teaching says belief and faith in Him saves us, and if we believe and have faith in Him, we will seek to do what He teaches. Jesus death and resurrection makes no effect on the unbeliever who rejects Christ; sure Christ’s death and resurrection has made the way but its no use to those who don’t take it.

HOWEVER, I do not believe, that a potential believer's belief in the first option, necessarily excludes them from being a true believer, either - so rest easy tonight

Rubbish, there is no scriptural support for being a half believers or saved as a half believer. You are dreaming.
My point was a potential believer is not yet a believer.

Are you really asking me this question?

Yes of course, you made the statement that there are worse things than monogamous same sex relations, as monogamous same sex relations can lead to eternal death what could be worse.

After you have been spending hours trying to convince people that even nonbelievers should follow God's laws even if they end up damned? WOW - cue the circus music....crazy!

Wow What is worse than eternal death through monogamous same-sex relations, whether one has spent hours trying to convince people that even nonbelievers should follow God's laws even if they end up damned, or not?
If non-believers follow God’s laws and dont do same-sex relations, how are they going to end up dammed because of them? They wont will they.

But we can't deny the fact that there are gays and lesbians who is more faithful than those straight people. So, we can't totally judge them.

Faithful in what?
The person who is faithful is the one who is no longer the gay, the thief, the murderer, the adulterer etc.