I don't propose to quote from the Mosaic law, but as you study it, you will see that virginity was expected of men and women until they married the first time. Various sanctions were applied if this requirement was found not to have been fulfilled, or, if accusations made proved to be true, and even if they proved untrue; because a person's truthfulness, reputation and integrity were valued and vindicated (or not) within the legal aspects of Hebrew culture.
Do you need verses which show that God is Holy, righteous, just, True, pure light, powerful, Jealous (intolerant of sin)?
I hope you could make a far longer list of His attributes. All of them have a bearing on what He meant when He said:
Genesis 1:26 And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness:...' This is the standard.
1 Corinthians 7:1 Now concerning the things whereof ye wrote unto me: It is good for a man not to touch a woman.
2 Nevertheless, to avoid fornication, let every man have his own wife, and let every woman have her own husband
8 I say therefore to the unmarried and widows, It is good for them if they abide even as I.
9 But if they cannot contain, let them marry: for it is better to marry than to burn.
12 But to the rest speak I, not the Lord: If any brother hath a wife that believes not, and she be pleased to dwell with him, let him not put her away. 13 And the woman which has an husband that believes not, and if he be pleased to dwell with her, let her not leave him. 14
For the unbelieving husband is sanctified by the wife, and the unbelieving wife is sanctified by the husband: else were your children unclean; but now are they holy.
Regarding virgins, lower in the same chapter:
But and if thou marry, thou hast not sinned; and if a virgin marry, she hath not sinned.
Hebrews 13:4 Marriage is honourable in all, and the bed undefiled: but whoremongers and adulterers God will judge.
Quote
I trust Jesus to lead me; if He wants me to be “ex-gay,” or anything of the kind, I trust Him to lead me through it. But we are a long way from that prospect.
Well, I'm certain He will lead you through it successfully if you continue yielding your whole being to Him.
Quote
But how does any of this (the above 3 paragraphs) relate to gayness? or to any form of modern sexuality?
First of all, there is nothing new under the sun. 'Modern sexuality' is not 'modern'. The only people it's new to are the people who didn't practise it before recently. Gayness is not new either. I'm sure you know that.
What the previous three paragraphs touched on, is the relationship between idols, demons and a person's vulnerability to demonic influences while growing up. This is something a child has no defence against, especially if not actively protected by mature believers in Christ. Many factors combine to produce situations in which 'gayness' may develop, and there's a great variety in those situations, from family to family, and from person to person. Unclean spirits take advantage of the weak, the wounded, the rejected. There is no way a child can hope to negotiate the adult world with the same understanding as the adults in their life, so, most children make something up to fill the gaps in their understanding, and that fiction is the beginning of an opening for another spirit. Gayness and 'homosexuality' are among the greatest
lies, ever.
God did not create men or women without a huge instinct towards mating with what we call 'the opposite sex', but it is possible to have that instinct disrupted at a profond level, combined with wrong thinking, and end up 'homosexual'.
If you look up the word 'gender', you'll find it has to do with
cultivation. If a deep enough rift develops between the anatomy of a person and their gender, it can seem impossible to retrieve, but it is not beyond God's ability to restore the right gender to those who desire it, although as you note, the prospect seems distant right now. That's okay. God is ready when you are.
I don't propose to quote from the Mosaic law, but as you study it, you will see that virginity was expected of men and women until they married the first time. Various sanctions were applied if this requirement was found not to have been fulfilled, or, if accusations made proved to be true, and even if they proved untrue; because a person's truthfulness, reputation and integrity were valued and vindicated (or not) within the legal aspects of Hebrew culture.
_/ _/_/_/_/_/_/ See my post above, Reply # 1018, Posted 13 November 2012 - 12:38 PM .
Do you need verses which show that God is Holy, righteous, just, True, pure light, powerful, Jealous (intolerant of sin)?
_/ _/_/_/_/_/_/I am sure that either of us could find such scriptures, but I do believe that that would be another thread. The issue in this thread, from what I have seen, is in the area of ethics, or, if you prefer, morality, rather than the qualities of God.
I hope you could make a far longer list of His attributes. All of them have a bearing on what He meant when He said:
_/ _/_/_/_/_/_/ That is an interesting analysis. But that might also deserve another thread.
Genesis 1:26 And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness:...'
This is the standard.
Where
does
scripture
say
that? (WDSST?) Where does scripture lay this out as the standard? and as the standard for what?
1 Corinthians 7:1 Now concerning the things whereof ye wrote unto me: It is good for a man not to touch a woman.
2 Nevertheless, to avoid fornication, let every man have his own wife, and let every woman have her own husband
8 I say therefore to the unmarried and widows, It is good for them if they abide even as I.
9 But if they cannot contain, let them marry: for it is better to marry than to burn.
12 But to the rest speak I, not the Lord: If any brother hath a wife that believes not, and she be pleased to dwell with him, let him not put her away. 13 And the woman which has an husband that believes not, and if he be pleased to dwell with her, let her not leave him. 14
For the unbelieving husband is sanctified by the wife, and the unbelieving wife is sanctified by the husband: else were your children unclean; but now are they holy.
_/ _/_/_/_/_/_/ Wow! Now here is a verse that draws the christian into deeper contemplation! Can
anything but the Blood of
Jesus save anyone? And yet, there it is in scripture! And we could read I Tim 2: 15 with a similar concern. My solution to this little dilemma is to trust that Christ is somehow at work in the midst of our lives, especially in our relationships, and most especially in our deeper ones. And another little dilemma occurs to me: How are we to read a scripture in which (vs. 12) the author says that it is
he writing ("speaking") and not the Holy Spirit?
1 Corinthians 7:1 Now concerning the things whereof ye wrote unto me: It is good for a man not to touch a woman.
2 Nevertheless, to avoid fornication, let every man have his own wife, and let every woman have her own husband
8 I say therefore to the unmarried and widows, It is good for them if they abide even as I.
9 But if they cannot contain, let them marry: for it is better to marry than to burn.
12 But to the rest speak I, not the Lord: If any brother hath a wife that believes not, and she be pleased to dwell with him, let him not put her away. 13 And the woman which has an husband that believes not, and if he be pleased to dwell with her, let her not leave him. 14
For the unbelieving husband is sanctified by the wife, and the unbelieving wife is sanctified by the husband: else were your children unclean; but now are they holy.
Regarding virgins, lower in the same chapter:
But and if thou marry, thou hast not sinned; and if a virgin marry, she hath not sinned.
_/ _/_/_/_/_/_/ Yes, these things are very clearly laid out for the church of that time. But not every direction/command in Paul's letters are understood to apply strictly to the modern church. (regarding cosmetology, see I Cor 11: 3- 10) A few pastors still use this, but the trend is decreasing.
I trust Jesus to lead me; if He wants me to be “ex-gay,” or anything of the kind, I trust Him to lead me through it. But we are a long way from that prospect.
Well, I'm certain He will lead you through it successfully if you continue yielding your whole being to Him.
_/ _/_/_/_/_/_/ He most certainly will! But the steps toward an ex-gay life in Christ, as I understand them, are:
1. Examine what, if anything, the Holy Spirit is using scripture to say about gayness.
2. Study the above (step 1.) finding thoroughly to see how to apply it in one's life in practical terms.
3. Wait for the gay feelings to subside. Then wait for the same some more. Then wait for the same some more. Then wait for the same some more......
But, if that is correct, let's leave steps 2. & 3. aside for now. We have a
lot of work to do on step 1. !
But how does any of this relate to gayness? or to any form of modern sexuality?
First of all, there is nothing new under the sun.
_/ _/_/_/_/_/_/ I believe that you are quoting Ecclesiastes 1: 9. How much of the Preacher’s words do you want to apply to Christianity? Shall we say that the Cross of Christ and His Righteous Sacrifice, His Agape Love, is
vanity?
'Modern sexuality' is not 'modern'. The only people it's new to are the people who didn't practice it before recently. Gayness is not new either. I'm sure you know that.
_/ _/_/_/_/_/_/ That’s nice philosophy. But it is just as easy to say that some “ancient” things have changed. (refer to Isaiah 43: 18- 19; 56: 1- 7) Regarding marriage & sexuality, one aspect that has clearly changed is the main guiding principal: Today if two people go a preacher and say that they want to be married, the pastor often immediately begins an exploration of whether they are compatible. A few centuries ago, the discussion in such a situation was about who the parents of the two were, what the customary requirements were and whether they could meet them, etc. So “modern” marriage is certainly different from the ancient reality of marital life. And, in some ways, marital sexuality has changed with it. Children were not always the economic burden that they are today in industrialized nations. Further, many modern couples are concerned about sexual pleasure. But, as far as I know, historians have not found evidence of this concern going back more than the same few centuries.
What the previous three paragraphs touched on, is the relationship between idols, demons and a person's vulnerability to demonic influences while growing up. This is something a child has no defense against, especially if not actively protected by mature believers in Christ. Many factors combine to produce situations in which 'gayness' may develop, and there's a great variety in those situations, from family to family, and from person to person. Unclean spirits take advantage of the weak, the wounded, the rejected. There is no way a child can hope to negotiate the adult world with the same understanding as the adults in their life, so, most children make something up to fill the gaps in their understanding, and that fiction is the beginning of an opening for another spirit. Gayness and 'homosexuality' are among the greatest
lies, ever.
God did not create men or women without a huge instinct towards mating with what we call 'the opposite sex', but it is possible to have that instinct disrupted at a profound level, combined with wrong thinking, and end up 'homosexual'.
_/ _/_/_/_/_/_/ Nice philosophy. Does it have a scriptural basis? Yes, yes, I know that there are scriptures that you look at when you think of these things, but how can I derive your above thoughts from them? Or are you only repeating what a human being in a church has taught you?
If you look up the word 'gender', you'll find it has to do with
cultivation.
_/ _/_/_/_/_/_/ Per dictionary.com, it has more to do with
types or
kinds. But perhaps you were using a different reference work. :mellow:
If a deep enough rift develops between the anatomy of a person and their gender, it can seem impossible to retrieve, but it is not beyond God's ability to restore the right gender to those who desire it, although as you note, the prospect seems distant right now. That's okay. God is ready when you are.
_/ _/_/_/_/_/_/ I trust Jesus with my whole life. But I still have found no reason so far to align what you have said in the above four paragraphs with God’s plan for my life.
Keep trying as long as God leads you! (refer to Romans 8: 31b: "If God is for us, who can be against us?" :lol: )
dragonfly said:
Hi IHSscj,
Separately from my previous post, and from the points others are making, I want to state that I don't believe anyone is 'born' 'homosexual', although I understand this may be what it feels like to some, and, that many people have accepted the idea of 'being born that way', which lends credence to the idea that therefore, one can never change to being heterosexual.
God originally made people male and female for the purpose of having children together. He is the God of increase.
The power of sin in mankind is a power, but those who find Christ and receive the Holy Spirit, have a greater power; and through the power of the cross, the whole person is put to death and raised to new life in Christ Jesus. Receiving His death, is the key to receiving His life.
The power of God is well-able to recreate and restore missing strands of who we are to become in Him, and He does and will answer our hearts' cries.
If you look carefully at the root of the Greek word which is translated 'affection' (in the phrase 'vile affection' in Romans 1) it is about a person being 'affected' by an outside influence. 'Affect', in psychological language, is akin to 'mood'. In other words, the temptation to yield to same-sex attraction begins from outside the person. Inside the person being tempted, there may well be fertile ground - not only a pattern of fleshly behaviour, but genuine emotional and psychological disadvantages in the past, which render them additionally vulnerable to accept same sex attention. If there was no unclean spiritual attachment before that time, this is when it begins. However, as Paul said of himself and the Greeks (in a general way) 'the time of our ignorance God winked at (Acts 17), but now commands all men everywhere to repent'. You will find God very willing to work with you to bring your attitudes and thinking into line with His - that He can make you whole - but, if you knowingly go along with sin, the bondage is most likely to get stronger. You need to make a cold-blooded decision to hold on to God for all the changes you need to experience, and then hold on.
There is a breakthrough moment with every sin which a Christian conquers, which tends to occur at the point one thinks one is never going to be free. It is, therefore, very important not to give up on the challenge to get beyond that breakthrough point. You don't do this on your own. Paul calls it 'mortify the flesh', Romans 8:13. You play an active part in starving the hungry lion, but, all with the help of the Holy Spirit.
I appreciate your concern for my walk with
Yeshua (
Jesus). I do indeed resolve daily to "hold on to God for all the changes you need to experience, and then
hold on" But I am a long way from identifying my gayness as something from which He wants me to throw away.
I am by no means learned in Greek, ancient or modern. But if I am correct, the words translated as “lust” in Romans 1: 26- 27 are
pathe’ &
orexei.
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http://www.scripture4all.org/OnlineInterlinear/NTpdf/rom1.pdf>