How can a Person under the Law be saved ?

[Eccl.12:13]

Nine of the Ten commandments are in the NT. They are moral issues, I.E. lying, stealing, adultery, etc. NOT WORKS. The rest of THE LAW of Moses are works. Christians are not under the works of THE LAW. But the NT still says it is sin to lie, steal, murder, commit adultery, etc. The NT is free from the works of THE LAW. We are free. Those who are saved do not live sinful lives. Some here are trying to put us under the bondage of the works of THE LAW. I am not under the works of THE LAW. Why would God give us a New Covenant in Jesus' Blood if we are still under the works of THE LAW?

Galatians 3:10 (NKJV)
[sup]10 [/sup]For as many as are of the works of THE LAW are under the curse;

You, duckman, do not know what the works of the law is, of which Paul speaks!

Are you SURE the NT is free of all laws other than the (10)?

And what about this little law, that is NOT part of the (10), that no one ever addreses;

James 2
[9] But if ye have respect to persons, ye commit sin, and are convinced of the law as transgressors.

Are Christians obligated to keep this law? After all.....it's in the NT! And your dear Paul said, "All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:"

Well......? Are we to do our best not to have respect of persons or not?

Here is something else Paul said;

Rom.3
[19] Now we know that what things soever the law saith, it saith to them who are under the law: that every mouth may be stopped, and all the world may become guilty before God.

Now how is ALL the world guilty before God? What has the WHOLE world done that would make them guilty? Here is what God's word says;

Eccl.7
[20] For there is not a just man upon earth, that doeth good, and sinneth not.

Rom.3
[23] For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God;

Rom.5
[12] Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned:

And what is sin? Let's read it A GAIN!

1 John 3
[4] Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law.

So how has the WHOLE world become guilty before God?

The whole world has broken His laws.....those so called laws some say we are not obligated to keep!


.

 

[Duckybill]

You, duckman, do not know what the works of the law is, of which Paul speaks!

Are you SURE the NT is free of all laws other than the (10)?

And what about this little law, that is NOT part of the (10), that no one ever addreses;

James 2
[9] But if ye have respect to persons, ye commit sin, and are convinced of the law as transgressors.

It is sin because it violates the NT teaching:

Galatians 5:14 (NKJV)
[sup]14 [/sup]For all the law is fulfilled in one word, even in this: "You shall love your neighbor as yourself."

Are Christians obligated to keep this law? After all.....it's in the NT! And your dear Paul said, "All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:"

"Your dear Paul"? You cannot hide your resentment for Paul or your motives here.

Well......? Are we to do our best not to have respect of persons or not?

Galatians 5:14 (NKJV)
[sup]14 [/sup]For all the law is fulfilled in one word, even in this: "You shall love your neighbor as yourself."

Here is something else Paul said;

Rom.3
[19] Now we know that what things soever the law saith, it saith to them who are under the law: that every mouth may be stopped, and all the world may become guilty before God.

Now how is ALL the world guilty before God? What has the WHOLE world done that would make them guilty? Here is what God's word says;

Eccl.7
[20] For there is not a just man upon earth, that doeth good, and sinneth not.

Rom.3
[23] For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God;

Rom.5
[12] Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned:

And what is sin? Let's read it A GAIN!

1 John 3
[4] Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law.

So how has the WHOLE world become guilty before God?

The whole world has broken His laws.....those so called laws some say we are not obligated to keep!

Paul is clearly saying that your works religion won't save you. It is "obsolete". THE LAW that you are preaching is obsolete.

Hebrews 8:13 (NKJV)
[sup]13 [/sup]In that He says, "A new covenant," He has made the first obsolete.

 

[Eccl.12:13]

Paul is clearly saying that your works religion won't save you. It is "obsolete". THE LAW that you are preaching is obsolete.

Really?

And if ALL of God's laws were nailed to His cross, then which law is it that Paul speak of here?

Rom.2
[13] (For not the hearers of the law are just before God, but the doers of the law shall be justified.

So which law is it that Paul said if done will justify the doers?


.

 

[bud02]

Really?

And if ALL of God's laws were nailed to His cross, then which law is it that Paul speak of here?

Rom.2
[13] (For not the hearers of the law are just before God, but the doers of the law shall be justified.

So which law is it that Paul said if done will justify the doers?

Eccl you will never understand it until you make the distinction between the 10 commandments spoken and written by God and the Mosaic laws written by Moses to govern the people.

When God spoke the 10 they immediately became law that all creation was subject to. He spoke in the same manner when He spoke all creation into being.
When He spoke the 10 commandments it not only applied from that moment forward but also applied to everyone before they were spoken; from Adam to Moses. Now maybe you can understand what Paul wrote in Romans 5. That by one mans sin all were condemned to death. Now condemning everyone to death because of one mans sin is not a very fair proposition is it? and God completely understands that. As Paul also says in Romans 5 death rained from Adam to Moses. Those 10 laws that God had now spoke and written will / have been applied to all men from Adam to Moses, and to the ends of the earth. When He spoke, it became the law over all creation from beginning to end. They in effect have "thou not yet spoken from Adam to Mose" ...and will always be a part of Gods creation. In the same manner Jesus life on the cross did not simply apply from that moment forward but was also applied to all men from Adam to Mosses, it to applied to all of creation from beginning to end. So that they also will be saved by grace and not of works. It applied both to those before the law came, and after. Can you now see why the law came? Without it all men were condemned to death by Adams single sin. With it "the 10 laws" all men become accountable to Gods spoken law, the 10 commandments. With Jesus we are forgiven our transgression of the law, with out Jesus we suffer the penalty of the law, from Adam to the very end, the creation of the new heavens and earth.

The law of Moses is a completely different law written by Moses under the inspiration of God to govern the people. Moses wrote that the Levis were to place this law next to the Tabernacle "the ark that contained the 10 commandments " as a witness against the Hebrews. They never kept those laws and just as Moses said it became a witness against them, they did not keep those governing laws as God instructed them threw Moses. As you can see the law of Moses and the Law that God spoke into being are two completely different things. The Law that is written on the hearts you quoted in Jeremiah are the 10 commandments not the law of Moses.

 

[Eccl.12:13]

Eccl you will never understand it until you make the distinction between the 10 commandments spoken and written by God and the Mosaic laws written by Moses to govern the people.

The Law that is written on the hearts you quoted in Jeremiah are the 10 commandments not the law of Moses.

And what about this little law, that is NOT part of the (10), that no one ever addreses;

James 2
[9] But if ye have respect to persons, ye commit sin, and are convinced of the law as transgressors.

Are Christians obligated to keep this law? After all.....it's in the NT! And your dear Paul said, "All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:"

Well......? Are we to do our best not to have respect of persons or not?


.

 

[Duckybill]

Really?

Yeah really, obsolete.

Hebrews 8:13 (NKJV)
[sup]13 [/sup]In that He says, "A new covenant," He has made the first obsolete.

And if ALL of God's laws were nailed to His cross, then which law is it that Paul speak of here?

Rom.2
[13] (For not the hearers of the law are just before God, but the doers of the law shall be justified.

So which law is it that Paul said if done will justify the doers?

Why don't figure out which Covenant you are under and get back with us. Which will it be, THE LAW of Moses or the New Covenant paid for with the Blood of Jesus? The New is MUCH better.

Hebrews 8:6 (NKJV)
[sup]6 [/sup]But now He has obtained a more excellent ministry, inasmuch as He is also Mediator of a better covenant, which was established on better promises.

 

[dan p]

And what about this little law, that is NOT part of the (10), that no one ever addreses;

James 2
[9] But if ye have respect to persons, ye commit sin, and are convinced of the law as transgressors.

Are Christians obligated to keep this law? After all.....it's in the NT! And your dear Paul said, "All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:"

Well......? Are we to do our best not to have respect of persons or not?


.

Hi to all , and this is what Paul meant , Eccl . , to correct you and to repoof you and to make you Profitable for teaching and for you , to see James 1:1 , which says , To the 12 tribes which are scattered abroad , By the way , are you a Jews ??? dan p

 

[bud02]

And what about this little law, that is NOT part of the (10), that no one ever addreses;

James 2
[9] But if ye have respect to persons, ye commit sin, and are convinced of the law as transgressors.

Are Christians obligated to keep this law? After all.....it's in the NT! And your dear Paul said, "All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:"

Well......? Are we to do our best not to have respect of persons or not?
.

To Eccl that can turns every scripture into a riddle. Heres a riddle for you.
Jesus condenced all the law into two when He was asked, "what is the greatest law?" Jesus replied
“You shall love the lord your God with all your heart, and all your soul, and with all your mind. (38) This is the first and great commandment.

(39) And the second is like to it, you shall love you neighbor as yourself.

(40) On these two commandments hang all the law and the prophets.

You will see that all the 10 commandments are contained in these two................ Not so the Law of Moses.
So what do you suppose? Is having respect for persons ........ in keeping with love your neighbor as yourself?
Or is having respect for persons mean to respect them and their fleshly authority and property like gold over Gods commands?

Or perhaps its both. Is it really that hard to understand what James is talking about? I highlighted your quoted verse.
Just read the whole passage before and after your verse in question. Is showing partiality the same as coveting your neighbor?
Notice that James also quotes Jesus, in verse 8 “You shall love your neighbor as yourself,” is giving special treatment to the rich loving them as yourself, well their are many bible teachers today that that would say yes, why? because their rich.

Beware of Personal Favoritism
[sup]1[/sup] My brethren, do not hold the faith of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Lord of glory, with partiality. [sup]2[/sup] For if there should come into your assembly a man with gold rings, in fine apparel, and there should also come in a poor man in filthy clothes, [sup]3[/sup] and you pay attention to the one wearing the fine clothes and say to him, “You sit here in a good place,” and say to the poor man, “You stand there,” or, “Sit here at my footstool,” [sup]4[/sup] have you not shown partiality among yourselves, and become judges with evil thoughts?
[sup]5[/sup] Listen, my beloved brethren: Has God not chosen the poor of this world to be rich in faith and heirs of the kingdom which He promised to those who love Him? [sup]6[/sup] But you have dishonored the poor man. Do not the rich oppress you and drag you into the courts? [sup]7[/sup] Do they not blaspheme that noble name by which you are called? [sup]8[/sup] If you really fulfill the royal law according to the Scripture, “You shall love your neighbor as yourself,”[sup][a][/sup] you do well; [sup]9[/sup] but if you show partiality, you commit sin, and are convicted by the law as transgressors. [sup]10[/sup] For whoever shall keep the whole law, and yet stumble in one point, he is guilty of all. [sup]11[/sup] For He who said, “Do not commit adultery,”[sup][b][/sup] also said, “Do not murder.”[sup][c][/sup]Now if you do not commit adultery, but you do murder, you have become a transgressor of the law. [sup]12[/sup] So speak and so do as those who will be judged by the law of liberty. [sup]13[/sup] For judgment is without mercy to the one who has shown no mercy. Mercy triumphs over judgment.

 

[Eccl.12:13]

Is it really that hard to understand what James is talking about?

No it's not. So we are to keep the law of, Do not have repsect of persons, just as we are to keep the law that Paul quoted, flee fornication and do not covet!

.

 

[bud02]

No it's not. So we are to keep the law of, Do not have repsect of persons, just as we are to keep the law that Paul quoted, flee fornication and do not covet!

.

I can see where your going here Eccl. your trying to take qualities that Christians have and presume them to be laws.
The characteristics of a Spirit driven christian is the law of the Spirit, that Paul spoke of in Romans. It is not a law of the pen but the result of a changed life.

What James and Paul point to in these verses is If you are born of Christ you will not be a respecter of persons, or partake in fornication.
The Spirit is grieved / quenched by such things.

 

[Duckybill]

No it's not. So we are to keep the law of, Do not have repsect of persons, just as we are to keep the law that Paul quoted, flee fornication and do not covet!

Yes, we are to obey the 'flee fornication' part. That is not WORKS of THE LAW. That is morality.

 

[dan p]

What is your reason for continuing this debate? I think you just want to argue.

hI TW , and in the debate , will know how others think and what reasoning they used , what is wrong with that tomwester ???

You can not answer the OP ?? DAN P

 

[Pato]

Hi tw , and there some Law keepers here and I would like to know how a person can be saved under the Law .

It is that simple ?

What verse would they have ?

dan p

Hi danp, the law shows us what sin is, as per 1 John 3:4 - sin is the transgression of the law. We are all born under the law and are thereby sentenced to it's penalty or wages...which is death.
God has granted us grace because of His Son having paid the ransom for us with His blood. We need living faith to accept His payment for our sins. After being granted grace by our God, we are expected to live under that grace and to do so we must not break the law again or we will be placed back under it and it's penalty. It's not a matter of Law or Grace, but rather Law and Grace working together. e.g

If you are convicted of murder, you are under the law as a transgressor and are therfore guilty of breaking the law and will receive the penalty or wages due to you for that crime. Now let's suppose that your governor grant you a stay of execution and ultimately pardons you. You are no longer under that law but you are now under the grace of the state. Now, do you suppose, that if you are somehow released from prison to continue your live on the outside as a free man, that you are free to commit murder again? I imagine that you will try to live as a Law abiding citizen from then on, continuing under the grace you received. But, if you do transgress again, you place yourself back under the law and it's penalty.

The same is true of us as christians, we are sinners saved by grace to coin the phrase and this does not give us the go ahead to continually break God's Law but we must rather, keep His law. In His Law is revealed Love and Liberty. Love toward God and toward neighbour and Liberty because we are no longer held captive by sins penalty of death hanging over our head. Christ took the handwriting contained in ordinances, our IOU for death, and nailied that to the cross with a Paid In Full sign. Do you think you would be seen as a grateful recipient of that payment if you continue to live in sin?

So, in answer to your question, Law keepers are saved by Grace through Faith and no longer live as slaves to sin by fulfilling the royal law of God daily by the strength given to us by Almighty God, through His Holy Spirit by which Christ lives in us. If we do sin, we have an advocate with the Father, our High Priest Jesus the Christ, we repent of that sin and grow in Grace.

 

[KingJ]

Hi to all , and since we have some that believe that we have to keep the 10 Commandment , How DOES THAT SAVE any person today ?

Will you debate , dan p

Hello

It doesn't. LOL

We can read the rule book on how to be a good husband....but only when we have a real loving relationship with our wife will we 1) be able to obey it and 2) truly understand her motivation behind the rules.

It is absolutely ridiculous to assume that we can memorise all the laws that please God. God only gave laws to the Jews to keep them holier then other tribes because He planned to bring Jesus out of them. His laws given pleased Him (tick) but were not nearly all the ones He desired for man to live by. His desire from the beginning was to send Christ that by His death and resurrection we may become children of God after the spirit and spiritually be sensitve to those things that please and displease Him....just like a loving husband is able to write a million laws on how to please his wife...with of course the '''bare essential no-brainer rules''' being....don't commit adultery, murder wife etc.

That's why Jesus cleverly said all the laws can be summed up in two.
1) Love the Lord you God firstly..... 2) Love your neighbour as yourself.

 

[KingJ]

[18] Flee fornication. Every sin that a man doeth is without the body; but he that commiteth fornication sinneth against his own body. Boy......that Paul sure was a confused dude! On one hand he says, the laws were nailed to His cross, and on the other hand, don't do this, for breaking these laws will not allow you into God's kingdom. Well which one is it Paul?? Should I follow God's commandment and do as you say and FLEE FORNICATION, or has that law been nailed to His cross?

Hey, don't be so ugly about Paul...why the issues with Paul? I sense there are more issues under the skin.....

Simple example:

Lets say you married a woman who loves you alot, she forgives you for your fornicating past and sees the fact that you are marrying her as evidence of a change of lifestyle and dedication and submission to her as your one and only wife.

You then cheat. She forgives you because she knows that it has to be a ''mistake'' in light of the HUGE commitment of love you made to her when you decided to marry her.

You then cheat for 6 months. She kicks you out, because she now sees that you have had a complete change of heart and desire for her as your wife.

Its the same with God ...God will forgive us 7x70 times a day if we have sincere repentance. But if we are living in an extremity of evil....for a period....we grieve The Holy Spirit and shipwreck our salvation.

Marrying the wife is accepting and submitting to Jesus...knowing laws in our heart ...NOT merely living by the laws...which is like an organised marriage where the limit of you being able to please her ....is by reading her book on here 10 biggest expectations of a good husband....which to a loving husband should be ''no-brainers''.

 

[the stranger]

King J, I 100% agree with your last couple of post. I too, as many here, have debated this many times. In the end, where is our heart?

No one in the past was ever able to keep the law. NOT ONE. Yet it was because of their heart and faith that they were saved (that is, righteous in the Lord's eyes) and went to heaven after Jesus died and arose again for the sins of many (all who repent) ). Though, as Paul states, the law was given as so we can know what sin is, knowing that we can never meet Gods standards, though they were commanded to do, it was still ALWAYS a matter of the heart to serve God.

If obeying the law was truly the only thing that mattered, no one would have ever or would ever make it to heaven. God looks and knows our hearts, and that is what He judges by, both now and back than. In the OT, if they wanted to serve Christ by obeying His laws because they had a heart for God, but fell short, as we all do and would, God overlooked that. It has always been a matter of the heart.

In the NT, Jesus repeats many of the OT moral laws, and adding to them, by saying it is what is in our thoughts and hearts. So here is the big question. If we could never keep all the laws in the OT, how could we ever keep all of the commandments of the NT when the moral laws of the OT have been expanded? Does anyone here always have clean thought? Never acts in an unrighteous anger? Never ever tells the whitest of lies? Our heart may often be in the right place, but our actions will always fall short.


THANK YOU JESUS FOR YOUR BLOOD WHICH COVERS ALL MY SINS, PAST AND PRESENT!

 

[Arnie Manitoba]

Hi to all , and since we have some that believe that we have to keep the 10 Commandment , How DOES THAT SAVE any person today ?

I think it is right and honorable for us to try to keep the commandments. But is it a requirement ? No. We must recognize that one of the purposes of the commandments is to show that we cannot keep them perfectly. Every failure is called sin. Thus we need a Savior.

The Pharisees had the law , but rejected the Savior. The Savior was not pleased.

 

[lawrance]

I have come across people who claim to be christians.
Do you believe in Jesus i say, yes they say.
Do you know what the word Jesus means or Christ, no they say.
Do you believe you are going to heaven, yes they say.
Do you read the Bible, no way they say.
Would you want to be rich or able to push people around and have them fear you and have your way with others, If i only could they say.
Why do you think so many people are just like so.


They ask me are you going to heaven, i say that i don't know as i would not run around saying who goes or who does not as it's not up to me to say anything like that and if i did, i think that would be just boasting nonsense. Jesus is the only one who will say who are his and who are not.
Why do you think i would say this.

 

[dan p]

I have come across people who claim to be christians.
Do you believe in Jesus i say, yes they say.
Do you know what the word Jesus means or Christ, no they say.
Do you believe you are going to heaven, yes they say.
Do you read the Bible, no way they say.
Would you want to be rich or able to push people around and have them fear you and have your way with others, If i only could they say.
Why do you think so many people are just like so.


They ask me are you going to heaven, i say that i don't know as i would not run around saying who goes or who does not as it's not up to me to say anything like that and if i did, i think that would be just boasting nonsense. Jesus is the only one who will say who are his and who are not.
Why do you think i would say this.

Hi , and maybe you need to read more , and in 2 Cor 5:18 we have been given the Ministry of reconciliation , " Why do think I would say this ?

dan p

 

[Duckybill]

Hey, don't be so ugly about Paul...why the issues with Paul? I sense there are more issues under the skin.....

When I read ECC it reminds me of what Paul said, O foolish Galatians, who has bewitched you...

ECC is determined to stick to his works religion rather than the grace and truth of Jesus.

John 1:17 (NKJV)
[sup]17 [/sup]For the law was given through Moses, but grace and truth came through Jesus Christ.