How can anyone fall for the errors of Calvinism ?

[Grailhunter]

. John Calvin was fully committed to Jesus Christ not only in his monumental works of commentary but also in his preaching from the pulpit and the many schools for children he set forth. And we might also mention his influence upon Switzerland which was going one way Libertine until Calvin was reinstated to reestablish Christianity firmly as their rock. his lasting legacy even influenced the original American constitution which was not only built upon the Magna Carta and the statutes of Ancient Rome but influenced by Calvinist thought too. Yes Calvin was smart intellectually but made even smarter by the wisdom of God. ( Calvinism is a dead end you say and serves no purpose lacks understanding of the bible and Christianity and you also say a Blasphemy unto God himself) Grail One I do think your dislike for John Calvin has unhinged your reasoning of a honest appraisal and history of the man. The reality of that be within the people that hold to those creeds of the bible I see them often and they live Christ honouring and Spirit filled lives contrary to your accusations and slander. That is all I see from your point of view and certainly not a balanced perspective and certainly not love. Perhaps you have tried to love much but have never fully known love or been truly loved Christ hung upon a cross and loved and protected his Bride until the very end.

No I am absolutely correct.
But I did not say that John Calvin was not dedicated to Christ. He was just wrong.
Just like there are a lot of dedicate families today that are Calvinist.
But what does it do to the families?
How are they going to explain standing before Christ why they accused God the Father of being a monstrous puppet master.
And I still say no purpose...what does it do to humanity.
What is worship worth if He is making you do it?
What is faith worth if He is making you do it.
Do you think God enjoys a planetary puppet show?
Who's sin is it if God makes you murder some one or molest a child.

Calvinists would like to have it both ways.

They say that predestination is part of God being sovereign....until something goes horribly wrong. On no! They have free-will to murder but are forced to believe in Christ. And with the OSAS aspect of Calvinism we might meet a lot of murders and child molesters in Heaven.

 

[Prim]

Yes, Prim. I agree. He seems to be viciously anti-Calvinism and replies the same way to points which I already successfully disputed (and successful by presenting unadulterated verses of God's word which directly speak against his claims). Yet he repeats the same claims. I am at a loss at how to further discuss. It seems that I am being stonewalled and as I can proceed no further, no further will I go. God has spoken his truth here in the verses which I have referenced. That truth remains to be contested by those who claim that the 5 points of Calvinism are invalid when I have presented verses that support all those claims.

You have done all that is required the God shall decide the rest. With much love

 

[dhh712]

God is always right and everything God does is righteous altogether. God is entirely the reason any people believe in His Son.

God does not do this transformation By His Spirit for every man even though God commands all men repent and believe.
All of the scriptures only make sense from a Calvinist POV.

Romans 9
19 You will say to me then, “Why does He still find fault? For who has resisted His will?” 20 But indeed, O man, who are you to reply against God? Will the thing formed say to him who formed it, “Why have you made me like this?” 21 Does not the potter have power over the clay, from the same lump to make one vessel for honor and another for dishonor?

That is exactly how I feel about the Calvinist POV as well-- it is the only way every single verse makes sense.

When I posted Romans 9 Grail replied that it makes God look evil. That is us applying our own morals to God not submitting to the Lord's morals and trusting Him that he alone is good and that there can be found no evil in him.

Avoid Dissension
9 But avoid foolish disputes, genealogies, contentions, and strivings about the law; for they are unprofitable and useless. 10 Reject a divisive man after the first and second admonition, 11 knowing that such a person is warped and sinning, being self-condemned.

Yes. Thank you for admonishing me in the word. I will desist.

 

[Scott Downey]

That is exactly how I feel about the Calvinist POV as well-- it is the only way every single verse makes sense.

When I posted Romans 9 Grail replied that it makes God look evil. That is us applying our own morals to God not submitting to the Lord's morals and trusting Him that he alone is good and that there can be found no evil in him.



Yes. Thank you for admonishing me in the word. I will desist.

Maybe like the idea of beating a dead horse? It is useless waste of time, but you dont know right away that it is. Please continue to contend for the faith, but like Christ says if they do not receive you, wipe off the dust of the place from your feet and move on and God will bless you on your sojourning.

 

[Prim]

No I am absolutely correct.
But I did not say that John Calvin was not dedicated to Christ. He was just wrong.
Just like there are a lot of dedicate families today that are Calvinist.
But what does it do to the families?
How are they going to explain standing before Christ why they accused God the Father of being a monstrous puppet master.
And I still say no purpose...what does it do to humanity.
What is worship worth if He is making you do it?
What is faith worth if He is making you do it.
Do you think God enjoys a planetary puppet show?
Who's sin is it if God makes you murder some one or molest a child.

Calvinists would like to have it both ways.

They say that predestination is part of God being sovereign....until something goes horribly wrong. On no! They have free-will to murder but are forced to believe in Christ. And with the OSAS aspect of Calvinism we might meet a lot of murders and child molesters in Heaven.

You say ( No I be absolutely correct ) the Grail One always seems be be correct. Does remind me very much of a movie I once saw called the man who thought he knew the way they all lost their way and froze to death. Something to think upon. There be many that travel down the same path. You than go on to state that you never said John Calvin was not dedicated to Christ . Yet you belittle the man at every given opportunity and also belittle those who hold to those given beliefs. You than go on to say how are Calvinists going justify ourselves before Christ in how we have accused the Father of being a monstrous puppet master. Grail One. Firstly we don’t accuse our Heavenly Father of anything but for me personally it be a reality that God still be in control. I don’t have a problem with your claim of God being a puppet master o”and being the final authority. God does as he pleases. You seem to have a problem with that. Perhaps it be the case of the sinful nature and carnal mind that continually demands and questions how God should think. Gods ways are not our ways that’s all I say. You than go on to say what is faith worth if God is making us do it. The reality being that faith is only something that God can give we do not have that capacity to produce . Perhaps you have never received since you continually challenge the power of the Creator who is only able to do. You than ask who’s sin is it that makes one murder or molest a child. Well certainly not Gods for God is Holy and Perfect. It be the sinful nature of our fallen humanity of course. Not that killing is a sin for God he has been killing rebels for long time now. The last climax of that was the great flood. You than say all good and well to believe in predestination until something goes wrong. Grail One calamities have been happening for a long time now. How does that effect predestination you think? Does not God know the beginning and the end. And finally we come to the climatic conclusion of Grail Ones thoughts. That being with the aspect of Calvinism that we might have a lot of murderers and child molesters in heaven because of them. You might add ladies of the night to that list as well and every other possibility that has befallen our fallen nature. Yes that’s right Grail One King David and Moses both were murderers were they not. God will have mercy upon whom he pleases. I don’t even know if that be solely a Calvinist belief. Christ will save whom he pleases. You seem to also now have a problem with God determining who he can save also. Perhaps you need to be reminded that it be God that decides and not us.

 

[farouk]

. John Calvin was fully committed to Jesus Christ not only in his monumental works of commentary but also in his preaching from the pulpit and the many schools for children he set forth. And we might also mention his influence upon Switzerland which was going one way Libertine until Calvin was reinstated to reestablish Christianity firmly as their rock. his lasting legacy even influenced the original American constitution which was not only built upon the Magna Carta and the statutes of Ancient Rome but influenced by Calvinist thought too. Yes Calvin was smart intellectually but made even smarter by the wisdom of God. ( Calvinism is a dead end you say and serves no purpose lacks understanding of the bible and Christianity and you also say a Blasphemy unto God himself) Grail One I do think your dislike for John Calvin has unhinged your reasoning of a honest appraisal and history of the man. The reality of that be within the people that hold to those creeds of the bible I see them often and they live Christ honouring and Spirit filled lives contrary to your accusations and slander. That is all I see from your point of view and certainly not a balanced perspective and certainly not love. Perhaps you have tried to love much but have never fully known love or been truly loved Christ hung upon a cross and loved and protected his Bride until the very end.

Hi @Prim Calvin indeed wrote some helpful commentaries. He died in 1564. (The Synod of Dort which prepared the 5 Points of Calvinism occurred in 1618/19.)

 

[farouk]

What I have found doing a quick search is that firstly, yes--you are confusing Calvinism with hyper-Calvinism. It is hyper-Calvinism which describes God as a puppet-master. Secondly, Calvinism does refer to the 5 points and that's about it. Reformed theology can be seen as like an umbrella term which includes the 5 points of Calvinism.

So as far as Calvinism goes I'm not aware of any position on free will; none of the 5 points to my brief consideration of them speak directly of free will (it is indirectly described in unconditional election and irresistible grace and I will point to the chapter in the Westminster Confessions that I posted to flesh out what is understood about free will in these two points). Since most Calvinists are Reformed, that is the doctrine that I went to to define the Calvinist position on free will. If you wish to bring up any reference that defines the Calvinist idea of free will as anything else, please do so. I would be interested in it.



Not at all; you are confusing hyper-Calvinism with Calvinism as I correctly conjectured. The Bible contradicts your idea that any of us can freely choose God without first being spiritually reborn. See the many verses which I listed which falsify your claim to that. God's word in Ephesians says that he has chosen who will be saved from before the foundations of the world. You can dispute with God about it; it isn't I who has said it but Him.

@dhh712 Good indeed to distinguish between Calvinism and Hyper-Calvinism................

 

[Prim]

Hi @Prim Calvin indeed wrote some helpful commentaries. He died in 1564. (The Synod of Dort which prepared the 5 Points of Calvinism occurred in 1618/19.)

Farouk thank you. John did write so many things probably the reason he passed away so early . They do say from from overwork from all his Christian activities

 

[farouk]

Farouk thank you. John did write so many things probably the reason he passed away so early . They do say from from overwork from all his Christian activities

@Prim In those says also, ppl often did not use to live as long as they do now.

C H Spurgeon died in 1892 at the age of57.....

 

[farouk]

Grail One I’m sure every denomination has people that they look up too. But George Whitfield, Martin Loyd Jones, Charles Spurgeon and Arthur Pink are seen as spiritual giants throughout much of the Christian world universally.

@Prim Those various preachers and writers whom you cite were men of doctrine, indeed, steeped in the Scriptures. We do well to follow their earnest pursuit of the deep truths of the Word of God.

 

[Grailhunter]

Yet you belittle the man at every given opportunity and also belittle those who hold to those given beliefs.

Dedication and correctness do not correlate. His reasoning was seriously flawed. Then he and later his followers pieced together a series of false beliefs.....Total Depravity, Unconditional Election, Limited Atonement, Irresistible Grace, and the Perseverance of the Saints.....all wrong. Then predestination were Judgment Day is moved to sometime before creation and God supposedly chose who would be saved and who would be damned. Predestination where God controls the lives of everyone. Some where a long the line it should have dawned on them that they were painting a picture of a horrid God.

When a person studies the Bible they need to consider the big picture the overall spirit represented in scriptures and for Christians understanding the spirit of Christ is so important. Ever heard of can't see the forest for the trees. You have to stand back and look at it overall.

For example a person could look at the Old Testament and the 613 Mosaic Laws and come up with the conclusion that Yahweh hated women. There are people then and now that suggest that Christ was a witch.....Magic instead of miracles, walked on water, a medium...talked to the dead, made fish appear in baskets, healed people....women thought to be witches were killed in the middle ages for healing. If you do not fully understand Christianity you can come up with some klondike ideas.

Firstly we don’t accuse our Heavenly Father of anything but for me personally it be a reality that God still be in control. I don’t have a problem with your claim of God being a puppet master o”and being the final authority. God does as he pleases. You seem to have a problem with that.

I have addressed this on a few occasions. There are people that like the idea of being controlled by God, so this is the religion for them. For one thing they do not have to take responsibility for sinning....God made me do it. And there are Christians that still believe in slavery, that the black still should be slaves. If you like slavery....Calvinism is the religion for you.

The reality being that faith is only something that God can give we do not have that capacity to produce

This sentence structure is wrong.....I am going to go with that you think that faith is something only God can give and I disagree.
Again serves no purpose and same thing for God forcing people to worship Him....serves no purpose...what good is it...and it is a negative view of God's character.

Perhaps you have never received since you continually challenge the power of the Creator who is only able to do.

Incorrect, I do not challenge the power of God, I have said God can do anything....He just does not use His power for evil.

You than ask who’s sin is it that makes one murder or molest a child. Well certainly not Gods for God is Holy and Perfect. It be the sinful nature of our fallen humanity of course. Not that killing is a sin for God he has been killing rebels for long time now. The last climax of that was the great flood. You than say all good and well to believe in predestination until something goes wrong. Grail One calamities have been happening for a long time now. How does that effect predestination you think? Does not God know the beginning and the end.

Beating around the bush? Still if you say God controls people and they murder and molest children....whose sin is it? You cannot have it both ways.....Either He predestines and controls us or He does not.

And finally we come to the climatic conclusion of Grail Ones thoughts. That being with the aspect of Calvinism that we might have a lot of murderers and child molesters in heaven because of them. You might add ladies of the night to that list as well and every other possibility that has befallen our fallen nature. Yes that’s right Grail One King David and Moses both were murderers were they not. God will have mercy upon whom he pleases. I don’t even know if that be solely a Calvinist belief. Christ will save whom he pleases. You seem to also now have a problem with God determining who he can save also. Perhaps you need to be reminded that it be God that decides and not us.

This is the dilemma of the OSAS crowd and OSAS is imbedded in the beliefs of Calvinism. If you are at that heavenly banquet and the guy next to you starts pouring ketchup on your arm....he maybe a cannibal LOL But a lot of good Christians will be in Heaven, is it a reward to spend eternity with evil....Heaven full of evil is a strange belief.....will God and good people have to move out? What is Hell for?

 

[Prim]

@Prim Those various preachers and writers whom you cite were men of doctrine, indeed, steeped in the Scriptures. We do well to follow their earnest pursuit of the deep truths of the Word of God.

Very true it’s not a light thing to degrade such Men of great doctrinal truths . But there are those who seem determined to sink their daggers into the heart of the reformation. Besides Calvin they also charged Charles with heresy too. Simply because he smoked and enjoyed his cigars.

 

[farouk]

Very true it’s not a light thing to degrade such Men of great doctrinal truths . But there are those who seem determined to sink their daggers into the heart of the reformation. Besides Calvin they also charged Charles with heresy too simply because he smoked and enjoyed his cigars.

@Prim What some ppl who are not very doctrinally minded sometimes seek to do is to read into other people's lives and periods of history their own fundamentalist culture as opposed to real doctrine.

 

[Scott Downey]

@Prim In those says also, ppl often did not use to live as long as they do now.

C H Spurgeon died in 1892 at the age of57.....

Recall something about kidney disease for him.
We can live longer now, but I often think not better for many people have terrible chronic diseases and they suffer a lot being kept going much longer.

 

[Scott Downey]

@dhh712 Good indeed to distinguish between Calvinism and Hyper-Calvinism................

I would not call TULIP a hyper Calvinism, not even irresistible grace, although many do, God will not be denied His will and the sheep must be saved.
To me hyper means total robotic like existence, and we know Christ called his people friends and brothers

Like for example, the stone the builders rejected was Christ, but for the sheep, we must be saved as Christ says it is God's will none of those, He has given to Christ be lost, except for Judas Iscariot. That is the basis of OSAS which some say is a lie here in the thread.

Acts 4
11 This is the ‘stone which was rejected by you builders, which has become the chief cornerstone.’ 12 Nor is there salvation in any other, for there is no other name under heaven given among men by which we must be saved.”

The Name of Jesus Forbidden
13 Now when they saw the boldness of Peter and John, and perceived that they were uneducated and untrained men, they marveled. And they realized that they had been with Jesus. 14 And seeing the man who had been healed standing with them, they could say nothing against it.

 

[Grailhunter]

To me hyper means total robotic like existence,

I say robotic down to every snowflake.....Can you list what you think what Calvinism believes that God does not control?

 

[Prim]

Dedication and correctness do not correlate. His reasoning was seriously flawed. Then he and later his followers pieced together a series of false beliefs.....Total Depravity, Unconditional Election, Limited Atonement, Irresistible Grace, and the Perseverance of the Saints.....all wrong. Then predestination were Judgment Day is moved to sometime before creation and God supposedly chose who would be saved and who would be damned. Predestination where God controls the lives of everyone. Some where a long the line it should have dawned on them that they were painting a picture of a horrid God.

When a person studies the Bible they need to consider the big picture the overall spirit represented in scriptures and for Christians understanding the spirit of Christ is so important. Ever heard of can't see the forest for the trees. You have to stand back and look at it overall.

For example a person could look at the Old Testament and the 613 Mosaic Laws and come up with the conclusion that Yahweh hated women. There are people then and now that suggest that Christ was a witch.....Magic instead of miracles, walked on water, a medium...talked to the dead, made fish appear in baskets, healed people....women thought to be witches were killed in the middle ages for healing. If you do not fully understand Christianity you can come up with some klondike ideas.



I have addressed this on a few occasions. There are people that like the idea of being controlled by God, so this is the religion for them. For one thing they do not have to take responsibility for sinning....God made me do it. And there are Christians that still believe in slavery, that the black still should be slaves. If you like slavery....Calvinism is the religion for you.



This sentence structure is wrong.....I am going to go with that you think that faith is something only God can give and I disagree.
Again serves no purpose and same thing for God forcing people to worship Him....serves no purpose...what good is it...and it is a negative view of God's character.



Incorrect, I do not challenge the power of God, I have said God can do anything....He just does not use His power for evil.



Beating around the bush? Still if you say God controls people and they murder and molest children....whose sin is it? You cannot have it both ways.....Either He predestines and controls us or He does not.

And finally we come to the climatic conclusion of Grail Ones thoughts. That being with the aspect of Calvinism that we might have a lot of murderers and child molesters in heaven because of them. You might add ladies of the night to that list as well and every other possibility that has befallen our fallen nature. Yes that’s right Grail One King David and Moses both were murderers were they not. God will have mercy upon whom he pleases. I don’t even know if that be solely a Calvinist belief. Christ will save whom he pleases. You seem to also now have a problem with God determining who he can save also. Perhaps you need to be reminded that it be God that decides and not us.

This is the dilemma of the OSAS crowd and OSAS is imbedded in the beliefs of Calvinism. If you are at that heavenly banquet and the guy next to you starts pouring ketchup on your arm....he maybe a cannibal LOL But a lot of good Christians will be in Heaven, is it a reward to spend eternity with evil....Heaven full of evil is a strange belief.....will God and good people have to move out? What is Hell for?

You say our Dedication & Correctness do not correlate. But in all those things you mention ( total depravity, unconditional election, limited atonement, irresistible grace, and the perseverance of of the Saints) they do correlate very much. So says not only John Calvin but also Holy Writ and much of the reformation church. Author Pinks books might enlighten you some if you have not read. You than go on to insinuate that predestination was than really judgement day for the world. Grail One again you apply your logic to try to override what the word of God says Ephesians 1:4 ( According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world,that we should be holy and without blame before him in love ) The very reason why we are guided by Sola Scriptoria and not the wisdom of this world. If mans logic decides and not Gods Divine word than we be in a very dark place. Than the Grail One decides he must also enlighten us some more with a lecture on the arts and just how ugly the Calvinist art-form really be. But upon closer inspection we do discover it really be the art work of the Grail One, inflicting with his miserable Arminian view point with every stroke of the brush a masterfully concealed work of Arminian perception and deception. Upon further appraisal I do fully recommend the classical novel ( the picture of Dorian Gray) by Oscar Wilde to reflect upon Grail Ones mischievous ways You say incorrect you do not challenge the power or authority of God. But you do that continually with your determination that God must accept all because they demand. You than continue about beating around the bush. You say if God controls people and they murder and molest whose sin is it ? You can’t have it both ways.. yes we can. Adam & Eve had perfection and paradise they had communion with God. They chose independence and to become gods unto themselves it be the inherited sin of all of humanity and certainly not of God. That in no wise detracts from the power of God to be in control of all things including the will power of sinful humanity. You than go on to discuss the banquet feast in heaven and something about good & evil spending time together in heaven. WHAT ? I do vaguely remember a Greecian prose which goes something like this ( unto whom the gods do send mad )does come to mind. And now the Grail One wants to invite all the unsanctified into heaven as well. That be a new generation bible you be reading from Grail One? I only thought it was those washed in the blood of the lamb that got to attend. And no I not need to be dipped in ketchup sauce by your cannibals. I be sweet enough already : )

 

[farouk]

I do vaguely remember a Greecian prose unto whom the gods do send mad does come to mind And now the Grail One wants to invite all the unsanctified into heaven as well. That be a new generation bible you be reading from Grail One? I only thought it was those washed in the blood of the lamb that got to attend. And no I not need to be dipped in ketchup sauce by your cannibals. I be sweet enough already : ) View attachment 26675

@Prim

Reminds me of Revelation 21.27:

"And there shall in no wise enter into it any thing that defileth, neither whatsoever worketh abomination, or maketh a lie: but they which are written in the Lamb's book of life."

Is this another photo of you, @Prim? maybe taken in Singapore.

 

[Prim]

All pics be a reflection of me . At least the pretty ones : )

 

[Grailhunter]

You say our Dedication & Correctness do not correlate.

A lot of denominations have dedicated people and good people but not right.

But in all those things you mention ( total depravity, unconditional election, limited atonement, irresistible grace, and the perseverance of of the Saints) they do correlate very much.

Absolutely wrong.

So says not only John Calvin but also Holy Writ and much of the reformation church. Author Pinks books might enlighten you some if you have not read.

Not even a little bit.

You than go on to insinuate that predestination was than really judgement day for the world. Grail One again you apply your logic to try to override what the word of God says Ephesians 1:4

No Calvinism pretty much stomps all over logic. No purpose and no logic.

The very reason why we are guided by Sola Scriptoria and not the wisdom of this world.

Not even a small chance.

If mans logic decides and not Gods Divine word than we be in a very dark place.

The Bible was given to us to understand a good God not to twist the word to accuse God of being a monster. You can go through the Bible and come up with some strange conclusions if you do not under stand the spirit of Christianity.

But you do that continually with your determination that God must accept all because they demand.

Never said that.

You say if God controls people and they murder and molest whose sin is it ? You can’t have it both ways.. yes we can.

No you cannot.

They chose independence and to become gods unto themselves it be the inherited sin of all of humanity and certainly not of God.

The Bible does not say that.

That in no wise detracts from the power of God to be in control of all things including the will power of sinful humanity.

The monstrous puppet master religion....no thanks.

You than go on to discuss the banquet feast in heaven and something about good & evil spending time together in heaven.

Evil robots on earth and evil robots in Heaven...that is strange.

And now the Grail One wants to invite all the unsanctified into heaven as well. That be a new generation bible you be reading from Grail One? I only thought it was those washed in the blood of the lamb that got to attend. And no I not need to be dipped in ketchup sauce by your cannibals. I be sweet enough

It is not me that believes in once save always saved or once damned always damned.