How can anyone fall for the errors of Calvinism ?

[Grailhunter]

View attachment 26643 The Presbyterian creed of faith. That be the standard creed amongst most Christian churches. So far the reading of the God as in all the churches of Australasia. And I’m sure the standard creed of the universal church too. I can’t remember the Presbyterian church ever being listed as a cult amongst the Christian faith. At least until coming upon the post of the Mr Grail which reads more like the story of a madman.. What manner of religion do you belong? I dare say you very much have the Anglicans and Baptists listed in your kingdom of the cults list soon enough. And who know probably the entirety of the Protestant reformation too. Primmy not be sure about your God bless. You failed to address all those great men of the faith that I mentioned who believe likewise of the Calvinist ones theology .

I am and theologian educated in 5 countries. I call myself multi-denominational because I go to so many churches. Very tolerant to different beliefs....Just not so much that are harmful. My favorite churches are the Holy Ghost churches. I have been involved with professional interventionists to save young people. Not a professional myself.

The word cult is usually used incorrectly. The belief has to have a physical and spiritual harmful aspect. Most cults are difficult to leave. One of the reasons that professionals call the Jehovah's Witness a cult. The Calvinists have so many negative flags flying it is not wise to get involved with them and the religion itself can lead people to hell.

Nearly every denomination have those well known men that support them. Don't mean they are right.

Just find a better religion...ok

 

[Prim]

I am and theologian educated in 5 countries. I call myself multi-denominational because I go to so many churches. Very tolerant to different beliefs....Just not so much that are harmful. My favorite churches are the Holy Ghost churches. I have been involved with professional interventionists to save young people. Not a professional myself.

The word cult is usually used incorrectly. The belief has to have a physical and spiritual harmful aspect. Most cults are difficult to leave. One of the reasons that professionals call the Jehovah's Witness a cult. The Calvinists have so many negative flags flying it is not wise to get involved with them and the religion itself can lead people to hell.

Nearly every denomination have those well known men that support them. Don't mean they are right.

Just find a better religion...ok

Grail One I’m sure every denomination has people that they look up too. But George Whitfield, Martin Loyd Jones, Charles Spurgeon and Arthur Pink are seen as spiritual giants throughout much of the Christian world universally. You say ( don’t mean they are right ) ok. As to the meaning of Cult ( A religion that is seen as unorthodox or spurious. Spurious meaning having similar or corresponding qualities to something without having its genuine qualities in other words False ) that was the original meaning and of course much has been added to the meaning of the word over the centuries like cult status cult like figure etc. I can’t ever remember the Presbyterian church being classed as unorthodox at least not from the Protestant side . Yes certainly much disagreement about doctrine on some subjects like predestination and eternal security but certainly never seen as a cult. Perhaps you might like to use a different word. Anyway me do wish you the very best in helping the young that you visit and your time that you enjoy in your favourite Holy Ghost churches.

 

[dhh712]

But the reality is we are puppets.

Bob Dylanj, in his "Christian days" wrote a song that carried lots of wisdom-- "you gotta serve somebody!" We are given our free will restored to us, so we may simply become bond slaves to Jesus!

Now we do exercise our will in rebellion when we sin, but God knew that when He saved us! We are saved despite God knowing how many times we would fail after being saved!

But our will is never truly free, that is the paradox of free will . It always will serve God or sin.

I understand what you mean in that we are slaves to something; what I mean is that we aren't like controlled by someone else. Everything we do is of our own volition--even in choosing God, though it happens only when he gives us spiritual rebirth. We are never entirely free because we are either servants of God or servants of evil, but we choose to do either of these things--neither one of these entities is operating us like we're automatons.

 

[dhh712]

Of course not! Calvinism believes evil is good.

Calvinism is blasphemy against God and a faulty theology. I am not sure if they read the Bible, they believe what they believe and only go to the Bible to look for scriptures they think supports their beliefs.

I've read entirely through the Bible a number of times and every verse is no contradiction against any of the Calvinistic beliefs. Again, if you think my description of God in Romans 9 is evil then that is your own moral standards projected onto God not what God describes as evil in His word. I may find some doctrines in the Bible hard, but this is God's world not mine. He defines what is evil, not us.

O
Their belief that God determined who will be save before creation is false.
The OSAS aspect of Calvinism is false.
The ODAD aspect of Calvinism is false.....Once Damned Always Damned.
Their belief that God has turned humans into robots is false.
The five points of Calvinism are false.

Not according to Ephesians, it isn't (and all the other verses I quoted). OSAS is directly quoted by Jesus. Again, double-predestination is not Calvinism. Again, I've already explained that humans have free will [though again, only when God gives spiritual life will anyone turn to Him. Again, directly quoted by Jesus. Therefore unless someone is turned to God by Him (as Jesus testifies that no one can come to him unless the Father draws him) no one can have free will to do good unto God (because they can't serve a God they don't know) and can therefore only have free will to do evil]. That is a Calvinistic belief. You say you know Calvinism, but it appears you do not. There is no Calvinistic belief that humans are puppets. We are slaves to something, if that is what they mean. I replied to Ronald about that. But it is very clear in the Bible that humans act of their own free will.

That is right, Calvinists do not know if they are saved....limited atonement?
Christian do and all that are saved are the elect.

Yes, we do. Once we turn to Jesus we are saved. And knowing that no one can take us from the Father's hand (as Jesus says in Luke, which is one of the many Biblical proofs for OSAS), it gives us assurance that no one can take our salvation away. All that are saved are the elect, that is a Calvinistic idea.

You apparently do not know Calvinism well. Total predestination or total control is a tenet of Calvinism. The definition of God sovereignty according to Calvinists is total control.

Yes, God is in control of everything, completely sovereign. We also have free will (within the limits I've countless times said already). We freely choose what we will do in the midst of God's total sovereignty. Numerous people who have described themselves as Calvinist always say this: 100% God, 100% man. If that's not Calvinism, fine. It's our definition of Calvinism however. It my perspective that you rather have the definition wrong. If you will point me to some reference that supports your claim, I will take it into consideration. But I have read Calvin's Institutes of Theology (vol 1), one of his commentaries and some of "Hearts Aflame" and I don't recall having seen anything suggesting anything other than what I have written.

This is directly opposed to Calvinist beliefs. The last time a person that called themselves Calvinist said this to me, they were furious when they found out the truth. Calvinists are so deceptive that people going to their church may not find out the truth for years. There is no such thing as a free-will Calvinist.

Our church is Calvinist in theology (though as someone pointed out there's not like a Calvinist denomination, it just describes that kind of Biblical view the church holds to) and we always point out the free will of man (though again, within the limitations I have already written about). As before, point me to something that shows this isn't the case or I will continue to believe that all the scholarly theologians and numerous people with whom I have spoken in person in my life who attest to being Calvinist are right and this stranger on the internet whom I know nothing about is mistaken.

 

[Grailhunter]

Grail One I’m sure every denomination has people that they look up too. But George Whitfield, Martin Loyd Jones, Charles Spurgeon and Arthur Pink are seen as spiritual giants throughout much of the Christian world universally. You say ( don’t mean they are right ) ok. As to the meaning of Cult ( A religion that is seen as unorthodox or spurious. Spurious meaning having similar or corresponding qualities to something without having its genuine qualities in other words False ) that was the original meaning and of course much has been added to the meaning of the word over the centuries like cult status cult like figure etc. I can’t ever remember the Presbyterian church being classed as unorthodox at least not from the Protestant side . Yes certainly much disagreement about doctrine on some subjects like predestination and eternal security but certainly never seen as a cult. Perhaps you might like to use a different word. Anyway me do wish you the very best in helping the young that you visit and your time that you enjoy in your favourite Holy Ghost churches.

I will leave you with a lesson.
What does it take to be wise?
Certainly you have to have the equipment.....an efficient brain above normal.....
You have to have to have the information....education....even if it it is experience....
But then education without experience leaves you short.....
Then you have to have a mind that can reason all of this....
But then to be wise and right you have to understand Christianity as a whole....
Because there have been many people and leaders that were geniuses that were evil....evil geniuses.

A lot of times to be a leader or charismatic, does not take wisdom.

At six years old I was reading the Bible. Some have it and some don't. I was in college at the age of 15....it would have been 14 but there were family issues. I have been in one form of education or another most of my life. Now you can bet that I have known of the men you mentioned and many others. But when these men spent their lives just to come to the wrong conclusions it does not say a lot about them. John Calvin was not stupid....very smart...but not smart enough....He new the Bible but could not put it all together....lacked reasoning. Calvinism dead ends with no purpose and still lacks understanding the Bible or Christ or Christianity. And then on top of that blasphemes God....it has no positive feature.

 

[dhh712]

The Calvinists have so many negative flags flying it is not wise to get involved with them and the religion itself can lead people to hell.

What you are describing may be hyper-Calvinism. They believe in double-predestination and it is seen in a negative light by Calvinists (the non-hyper ones). I've been told that is a dangerous doctrine to get caught up in though I don't know that much about it outside of the double predestination.

Calvinism dead ends with no purpose and still lacks understanding the Bible or Christ or Christianity. And then on top of that blasphemes God....it has no positive feature.

In my understanding it does not do that. Most of the beliefs (except for total depravity and irresistible grace, which I may be able to find direct quotes for, just none are coming to me though one right now I just read is when Jesus describes all of man as evil in Luke 11 I believe it is when he says how a child will ask their father for a gift and that we should ask the Holy Spirit and He will give us good gifts) have clear and direct verses from scripture for support which can mean nothing else to the reasoning mind.

I have no idea how it blasphemes God except to project one's own moral standards upon God and therefore say that God is evil because some of what he reveals about himself is hard. Calvinism defines evil as God defines evil in his word, directly from verses in his revelation.

I consider myself blessed by God in the area of intelligence and after having read the Westminster Confessions of Faith and the Bible about 5 times already, I find the reformed doctrines, Calvinism included in them, to be the most clear and concise interpretation of God's word which most importantly takes into consideration every single verse and leaves not one out (I find that many doctrines I've run into ignore many verses of God's word; were they to take those into consideration, the doctrine cannot be upheld anymore to the reasoning mind because the verses together cannot be reconciled).

When my husband unexpectedly passed away, were it not for the doctrines I understood which are Calvinistic, I would have left the Christian faith understanding God to be an evil tyrant who takes away things from people which give them comfort and joy in this life. I don't plan on seeking out a new understanding of the Bible. Until God calls me to dwell in bliss with Him eternally, where I will be with my husband again and many other brothers and sisters whom I know personally who have also espoused Calvinistic beliefs, I will continue to cling to Jesus and serve Him to the best of my ability by his strength. It will not be too long until we both find out whether the doctrines either of us hold to are the best interpretation of God's word. I do believe the ones I hold to are, though not without its errors.

 

[Grailhunter]

Yes, we do. Once we turn to Jesus we are saved. And knowing that no one can take us from the Father's hand (as Jesus says in Luke, which is one of the many Biblical proofs for OSAS), it gives us assurance that no one can take our salvation away. All that are saved are the elect, that is a Calvinistic idea.

OSAS AHH! Lets start with this....

Matthew 18:9 And if your eye causes you to sin, pluck it out and cast it from you. It is better for you to enter into life with one eye, rather than having two eyes, to be cast into hell fire.

1st Corinthians 6:9-10 “Or do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived; neither the sexually immoral, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor homosexuals, nor thieves, nor the greedy, nor those habitually drunk, nor verbal abusers, nor swindlers, will inherit the kingdom of God”

Galatians 5:19-21 Now the deeds of the flesh are evident, which are: sexual immorality, impurity, indecent behavior, idolatry, witchcraft, hostilities, strife, jealousy, outbursts of anger, selfish ambition, dissensions, factions, envy, drunkenness, carousing, and things like these, of which I forewarn you, just as I have forewarned you, that those who practice such things will not inherit the kingdom of God.

Hebrews 6:4-8
4: For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost, 5: And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come, 6: If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame. 7: For the earth which drinketh in the rain that cometh oft upon it, and bringeth forth herbs meet for them by whom it is dressed, receiveth blessing from God: 8: But that which beareth thorns and briers is rejected, and is nigh unto cursing; whose end is to be burned.

Hebrews 10: 26-31
26: For if we sin willfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins, 27: But a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries. 28: He that despised Moses' law died without mercy under two or three witnesses: 29: Of how much sorer punishment, suppose ye, shall he be thought worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace? 30: For we know him that hath said, Vengeance belongeth unto me, I will recompense, saith the Lord. And again, The Lord shall judge his people. 31: It is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God.

2nd Peter 2:4-22
4: For if God spared not the angels that sinned, but cast them down to hell, and delivered them into chains of darkness, to be reserved unto judgment 5: And spared not the old world, but saved Noah the eighth person, a preacher of righteousness, bringing in the flood upon the world of the ungodly; 6: And turning the cities of Sodom and Gomorrha into ashes condemned them with an overthrow, making them an ensample unto those that after should live ungodly; 7: And delivered just Lot, vexed with the filthy conversation of the wicked: 8: (For that righteous man dwelling among them, in seeing and hearing, vexed his righteous soul from day to day with their unlawful deeds

9: The Lord knoweth how to deliver the godly out of temptations, and to reserve the unjust unto the day of judgment to be punished: 10: But chiefly them that walk after the flesh in the lust of uncleanness, and despise government. Presumptuous are they, selfwilled, they are not afraid to speak evil of dignities. 11: Whereas angels, which are greater in power and might, bring not railing accusation against them before the Lord. 12: But these, as natural brute beasts, made to be taken and destroyed, speak evil of the things that they nderstand not; and shall utterly perish in their own corruption; 13: And shall receive the reward of unrighteousness, as they that count it pleasure to riot in the day time. Spots they are and blemishes, sporting themselves with their own deceivings while they feast with you; 14: Having eyes full of adultery, and that cannot cease from sin; beguiling unstable souls: an heart they have exercised with covetous practices; cursed children: 15: Which have forsaken the right way, and are gone astray, following the way of Balaam the son of Bosor, who loved the wages of unrighteousness; 16: But was rebuked for his iniquity: the dumb ass speaking with man's voice forbad the madness of the prophet. 17: These are wells without water, clouds that are carried with a tempest; to whom the mist of darkness is reserved for ever. 18: For when they speak great swelling words of vanity, they allure through the lusts of the flesh, through much wantonness, those that were clean escaped from them who live in error. 19: While they promise them liberty, they themselves are the servants of corruption: for of whom a man is overcome, of the same is he brought in bondage. 20: For if after they have escaped the pollutions of the world through the knowledge of the Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ, they are again entangled therein, and overcome, the latter end is worse with them than the beginning. 21: For it had been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than, after they have known it, to turn from the holy commandment delivered unto them. 22: But it is happened unto them according to the true proverb, The dog is turned to his own vomit again; and the sow that was washed to her wallowing in the mire.

2Cor:5:10: For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ; that every one may receive the things done in his body, according to that he hath done, whether it be good or bad.

2Pt:2:9: The Lord knoweth how to deliver the godly out of temptations, and to reserve the unjust unto the day of judgment to be punished:

2Pt:3:7: But the heavens and the earth, which are now, by the same word are kept in store, reserved unto fire against the day of judgment and perdition of ungodly men.

Jude:1:15: To execute judgment upon all, and to convince all that are ungodly among them of all their ungodly deeds which they have ungodly committed, and of all their hard speeches which ungodly sinners have spoken against him.

Rom:1:32: Who knowing the judgment of God, that they which commit such things are worthy of death, not only do the same, but have pleasure in them that do them.

Rom:5:12: Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned:

Rom:6:12: Let not sin therefore reign in your mortal body, that ye should obey it in the lusts thereof.

Rom:6:13: Neither yield ye your members as instruments of unrighteousness unto sin: but yield yourselves unto God, as those that are alive from the dead, and your members as instruments of righteousness unto God.

Rom:6:16: Know ye not, that to whom ye yield yourselves servants to obey, his servants ye are to whom ye obey; whether of sin unto death, or of obedience unto righteousness?

Rom:7:23: But I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members.

 

[Grailhunter]

1Cor:15:56: The sting of death is sin; and the strength of sin is the law.

Gal:3:22: But the scripture hath concluded all under sin, that the promise by faith of Jesus Christ might be given to them that believe.

Rom:3:23: For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God;

1Cor:6:18: Flee fornication. Every sin that a man doeth is without the body; but he that committeth fornication sinneth against his own body.

2Cor:12:21: And lest, when I come again, my God will humble me among you, and that I shall bewail many which have sinned already, and have not repented of the uncleanness and fornication and lasciviousness which they have committed.

2Cor:13:2: I told you before, and foretell you, as if I were present, the second time; and being absent now I write to them which heretofore have sinned, and to all other, that, if I come again, I will not spare:

1Tm:1:15: This is a faithful saying, and worthy of all acceptation, that Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners; of whom I am chief.

Ti:3:11: Knowing that he that is such is subverted, and sinneth, being condemned of himself.

Jms:4:8: Draw nigh to God, and he will draw nigh to you. Cleanse your hands, ye sinners; and purify your hearts, ye double minded.

1Pt:4:18: And if the righteous scarcely be saved, where shall the ungodly and the sinner appear?

1Jn:1:10: If we say that we have not sinned, we make him a liar, and his word is not in us.

1Jn:3:8: He that committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil.

1Tm:5:20: Them that sin rebuke before all, that others also may fear.

1Tm:5:24: Some men's sins are open beforehand, going before to judgment; and some men they follow after.

Ti:3:11: Knowing that he that is such is subverted, and sinneth, being condemned of himself.

Heb:2:17: Wherefore in all things it behoved him to be made like unto his brethren, that he might be a merciful and faithful high priest in things pertaining to God, to make reconciliation for the sins of the people.

Heb:3:13: But exhort one another daily, while it is called To day; lest any of you be hardened through the deceitfulness of sin.

Heb:8:12: For I will be merciful to their unrighteousness, and their sins and their iniquities will I remember no more.

Heb:12:1: Wherefore seeing we also are compassed about with so great a cloud of witnesses, let us lay aside every weight, and the sin which doth so easily beset us, and let us run with patience the race that is set before us,

Jms:1:15: Then when lust hath conceived, it bringeth forth sin: and sin, when it is finished, bringeth forth death.

Jms:2:9: But if ye have respect to persons, ye commit sin, and are convinced of the law as transgressors.

Jms:4:8: Draw nigh to God, and he will draw nigh to you. Cleanse your hands, ye sinners; and purify your hearts, ye double minded.

Jms:4:17: Therefore to him that knoweth to do good, and doeth it not, to him it is sin.

Jms:5:15: And the prayer of faith shall save the sick, and the Lord shall raise him up; and if he have committed sins, they shall be forgiven him.

1Pt:4:18: And if the righteous scarcely be saved, where shall the ungodly and the sinner appear?

1Jn:1:8: If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.

1Jn:1:9: If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness. 1Jn:1:10: If we say that we have not sinned, we make him a liar, and his word is not in us.

1Jn:2:1: My little children, these things write I unto you, that ye sin not. And if any man sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous:

1Jn:3:4: Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law.

1Jn:3:6: Whosoever abideth in him sinneth not: whosoever sinneth hath not seen him, neither known him.

1Jn:3:8: He that committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil.

1Jn:5:16: If any man see his brother sin a sin which is not unto death, he shall ask, and he shall give him life for them that sin not unto death. There is a sin unto death: I do not say that he shall pray for it.

And please lets hear all about the official Calvinist doctrines on free-will.

 

[dhh712]

1Cor:15:56: The sting of death is sin; and the strength of sin is the law.

Gal:3:22: But the scripture hath concluded all under sin, that the promise by faith of Jesus Christ might be given to them that believe.

Rom:3:23: For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God;

1Cor:6:18: Flee fornication. Every sin that a man doeth is without the body; but he that committeth fornication sinneth against his own body.

2Cor:12:21: And lest, when I come again, my God will humble me among you, and that I shall bewail many which have sinned already, and have not repented of the uncleanness and fornication and lasciviousness which they have committed.

2Cor:13:2: I told you before, and foretell you, as if I were present, the second time; and being absent now I write to them which heretofore have sinned, and to all other, that, if I come again, I will not spare:

1Tm:1:15: This is a faithful saying, and worthy of all acceptation, that Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners; of whom I am chief.

Ti:3:11: Knowing that he that is such is subverted, and sinneth, being condemned of himself.

Jms:4:8: Draw nigh to God, and he will draw nigh to you. Cleanse your hands, ye sinners; and purify your hearts, ye double minded.

1Pt:4:18: And if the righteous scarcely be saved, where shall the ungodly and the sinner appear?

1Jn:1:10: If we say that we have not sinned, we make him a liar, and his word is not in us.

1Jn:3:8: He that committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil.

1Tm:5:20: Them that sin rebuke before all, that others also may fear.

1Tm:5:24: Some men's sins are open beforehand, going before to judgment; and some men they follow after.

Ti:3:11: Knowing that he that is such is subverted, and sinneth, being condemned of himself.

Heb:2:17: Wherefore in all things it behoved him to be made like unto his brethren, that he might be a merciful and faithful high priest in things pertaining to God, to make reconciliation for the sins of the people.

Heb:3:13: But exhort one another daily, while it is called To day; lest any of you be hardened through the deceitfulness of sin.

Heb:8:12: For I will be merciful to their unrighteousness, and their sins and their iniquities will I remember no more.

Heb:12:1: Wherefore seeing we also are compassed about with so great a cloud of witnesses, let us lay aside every weight, and the sin which doth so easily beset us, and let us run with patience the race that is set before us,

Jms:1:15: Then when lust hath conceived, it bringeth forth sin: and sin, when it is finished, bringeth forth death.

Jms:2:9: But if ye have respect to persons, ye commit sin, and are convinced of the law as transgressors.

Jms:4:8: Draw nigh to God, and he will draw nigh to you. Cleanse your hands, ye sinners; and purify your hearts, ye double minded.

Jms:4:17: Therefore to him that knoweth to do good, and doeth it not, to him it is sin.

Jms:5:15: And the prayer of faith shall save the sick, and the Lord shall raise him up; and if he have committed sins, they shall be forgiven him.

1Pt:4:18: And if the righteous scarcely be saved, where shall the ungodly and the sinner appear?

1Jn:1:8: If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.

1Jn:1:9: If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness. 1Jn:1:10: If we say that we have not sinned, we make him a liar, and his word is not in us.

1Jn:2:1: My little children, these things write I unto you, that ye sin not. And if any man sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous:

1Jn:3:4: Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law.

1Jn:3:6: Whosoever abideth in him sinneth not: whosoever sinneth hath not seen him, neither known him.

1Jn:3:8: He that committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil.

1Jn:5:16: If any man see his brother sin a sin which is not unto death, he shall ask, and he shall give him life for them that sin not unto death. There is a sin unto death: I do not say that he shall pray for it.

And please lets hear all about the official Calvinist doctrines on free-will.

All of the verses you quoted do not nullify what Jesus has said--that no one can take what the Father has given him out of his hand. We are warned not to sin because we must work out our salvation in fear and trembling, knowing it is Christ working in you to will and to do (Philippians). Again, we're not robots. We must do the work which God has prepared before hand (Ephesians). OSAS is often used incorrectly to utilize a life of lawlessness. This would be applied most often by those who are not saved since those who are yearn to obey God out of a sense of love for him, for he first loved us.

And as for those who do fall away, they were never saved in the first place. As John writes in his first epistle, "They went out from us to make it apparent that they never were of us for if they were of us they would never have went out from us." We can never really know (about other people, we can surely know ourselves if we examine ourselves) if someone else is elect really until at the time of death for one can always leave the faith and this could be that they never really were saved or they could be in a time of backsliding and eventually repent and turn again to God.

Let me get the doctrines on Free Will which Calvinists hold to.

 

[Grailhunter]

All of the verses you quoted do not nullify what Jesus has said--that no one can take what the Father has given him out of his hand. We are warned not to sin because we must work out our salvation in fear and trembling, knowing it is Christ working in you to will and to do (Philippians). Again, we're not robots. We must do the work which God has prepared before hand (Ephesians). OSAS is often used incorrectly to utilize a life of lawlessness. This would be applied most often by those who are not saved since those who are yearn to obey God out of a sense of love for him, for he first loved us.

And as for those who do fall away, they were never saved in the first place. As John writes in his first epistle, "They went out from us to make it apparent that they never were of us for if they were of us they would never have went out from us." We can never really know (about other people, we can surely know ourselves if we examine ourselves) if someone else is elect really until at the time of death for one can always leave the faith and this could be that they never really were saved or they could be in a time of backsliding and eventually repent and turn again to God.

Let me get the doctrines on Free Will which the Calvinists hold to.

That is just it....battling scriptures come to an impasse.
It is understanding of the Bible as a whole and spirit of Christ and Christianity that you fail and Calvinism fails. The Jehovah's Witnesses will say the same thing you said because just like Calvinism they have taken all this time to weave their false beliefs together.

 

[dhh712]

(From Westminster Confessions of Faith) Chapter 9 Of Free Will 1. God has endued the will of man with that natural liberty, that is neither *forced* nor, by any absolute necessity of nature, determined to good, or evil.
(supports for this include: James 1: 13-14 Let no man say when he is tempted, I am tempted of God: for God cannot be tempted with evil, neither tempts he any any man: but man is tempted, when he is drawn away of his own lust, and enticed. Deut. 30:19 I call heaven and earth to record this day against you, that I have set before you life and death, blessing and cursing: therefore choose life, that both you and your children may live. James 4:7: Submit yourselves therefore to God. Resist the devil, and he will flee from you.

2. Man, in his state of innocency, had freedom, and power to will and to do that which was good and well pleasing to God; but yet, mutably, to that he might fall from it.
(supports for this include: Eccl. 7:29 Lo, this only I have found, that God has made man upright; but he has sought out many inventions. Col. 3:10 And [you] have put on the new man, which is renewed in knowledge after the image of him that created him.

3. Man, by his fall into a state of sin, has wholly lost all ability of will to any spiritual good accompanying salvation: so as, a natural man, being altogether averse from that good, and dead in sin, is not able, by his own strength, to convert himself, or to prepare himself thereunto.(supports for this include: Rom 8:7-8 Because the the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can it be. So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God. John 6:44,65 No man can come to me, except the Father which has sent me draw him...Therefore I said unto you, that no man can come unto me, except it were given unto him of my Father. Eph. 2: 1,5 And you has he quickened, who were dead in trespasses and sins... Even when we were dead in sins [God] has quickened us together with Christ.

4. When God converts a sinner, and translates him into the state of grace, he frees him from his natural bondage under sin; and, by his grace alone, enables him freely to will and to do that which is spiritually good; yet so, as that by reason of his remaining corruption, he does not perfectly, nor only, will that which is good, but does also will that which is evil.
(supports for this include: Col. 1:13 ...who has delivered us from the power of darkness, and has translated us into the kingdom of his dear Son. John 8 34,36 Jesus answered them, Verily, verily I say unto you, Whosoever commits sin is a servant of sin... If the Son therefore shall make you free, you shall be free indeed. Rom 6: 6-7 ...knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin. For he that is dead is freed from sin. Phil. 2:13 For it is God which works in you both to will and to do of his good pleasure Gal. 5:17 For the flesh lusts against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh: and these things are contrary the one to the other: so that you cannot do the things that you would. Rom 7: 14-25 For we know that the law is spiritual: but I am carnal, sold under sin. For that which I do allow I would not: for what I would do, that I do not; but what I hate, that I do. If then I do that which I would not, I consent unto the law that it is good. Now then it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwells in me. For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh), dwells no good thing: for to will is present in me; but how to perform that which is good I find not. For the good that I would I do not: but the evil which I would not, that I do. Now if I do that I would not, it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwells in me. I find then a law, that, when I would do good, evil is present with me. Fro I delight in the law of God after the inward man: but I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members. O wretched man that I am! who will deliver me from the body of this death? I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord. So then with the mind I myself serve the law of God; but with the flesh the law of sin. 1 John 1:8,10 If we say we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us... If we say that we have not sinned, we make him a liar, and his word is not in us.

5. The will of man is made perfectly and immutably free to good alone, in the state of glory only.
(supports for this include: Heb. 12:23 ...to the general assembly and church of the firstborn, which are written in heaven, and to God the Judge of all, and to the spirits of just men made perfect. 1 John 3:2 Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it does not yet appear what we will be: but we know that, when he will appear, we will be like him; for we will see him as he is. Jude 24 Now unto him that is able to keep you from falling, and to present you faultless before the presence of his glory with exceeding joy...)

 

[dhh712]

That is just it....battling scriptures come to an impasse.
It is understanding of the Bible as a whole and spirit of Christ and Christianity that you fail and Calvinism fails.

It is taken together as a whole. That's what Aremienism fails to do, acknowledge the sovereignty of God in all (and I can only understand it, as I was talking with a friend yesterday who once was an Armenian but now sees the Calvinist doctrines in God's word, that their eyes must glaze over those many, many verses in God's word which loudly proclaim His sovereignty). My friend now says he's both and I'm like, Yes I am too because both are described in God's word.

I'm not what you mean by an impasse. The verses you quoted support the Calvinistic doctrines just as the ones which I have quoted. As I have said already, it is 100% God and 100% man. God is sovereign, man has free will. The verse I think which perfectly captures this juxtaposition and how it is clearly both is the one in Philippians: Work out your salvation in fear and in trembling knowing it is Christ working in you to will and to do. *We* must still work, we must perform a task of our own volition. Yet, it is God who works in us. If that's what you mean by battling verses to an impasse... [shrugs] talk to God about it--it's not me who's saying it but Him!

 

[Grailhunter]

It is taken together as a whole. That's what Aremienism fails to do, acknowledge the sovereignty of God in all (and I can only understand it, as I was talking with a friend yesterday who once was an Armenian but now sees the Calvinist doctrines in God's word, that their eyes must glaze over those many, many verses in God's word which loudly proclaim His sovereignty). My friend now says he's both and I'm like, Yes I am too because both are described in God's word.

I'm not what you mean by an impasse. The verses you quoted support the Calvinistic doctrines just as the ones which I have quoted. As I have said already, it is 100% God and 100% man. God is sovereign, man has free will. The verse I think which perfectly captures this juxtaposition and how it is clearly both is the one in Philippians: Work out your salvation in fear and in trembling knowing it is Christ working in you to will and to do. *We* must still work, we must perform a task of our own volition. Yet, it is God who works in us. If that's what you mean by battling verses to an impasse... [shrugs] talk to God about it--it's not me who's saying it but Him!

I disagree. And you spend all that time to accuse God of being a monstrous puppet master. And all humanity are robots. Your conclusions are false. Humanity has free-will and we can choose Christ and God did not decide who will be saved or damned before creation....and the 5 points of Calvinism are false.

 

[Grailhunter]

(From Westminster Confessions of Faith) Chapter 9 Of Free Will 1. God has endued the will of man with that natural liberty, that is neither *forced* nor, by any absolute necessity of nature, determined to good, or evil.
(supports for this include: James 1: 13-14 Let no man say when he is tempted, I am tempted of God: for God cannot be tempted with evil, neither tempts he any any man: but man is tempted, when he is drawn away of his own lust, and enticed. Deut. 30:19 I call heaven and earth to record this day against you, that I have set before you life and death, blessing and cursing: therefore choose life, that both you and your children may live. James 4:7: Submit yourselves therefore to God. Resist the devil, and he will flee from you.

2. Man, in his state of innocency, had freedom, and power to will and to do that which was good and well pleasing to God; but yet, mutably, to that he might fall from it.
(supports for this include: Eccl. 7:29 Lo, this only I have found, that God has made man upright; but he has sought out many inventions. Col. 3:10 And [you] have put on the new man, which is renewed in knowledge after the image of him that created him.

3. Man, by his fall into a state of sin, has wholly lost all ability of will to any spiritual good accompanying salvation: so as, a natural man, being altogether averse from that good, and dead in sin, is not able, by his own strength, to convert himself, or to prepare himself thereunto.(supports for this include: Rom 8:7-8 Because the the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can it be. So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God. John 6:44,65 No man can come to me, except the Father which has sent me draw him...Therefore I said unto you, that no man can come unto me, except it were given unto him of my Father. Eph. 2: 1,5 And you has he quickened, who were dead in trespasses and sins... Even when we were dead in sins [God] has quickened us together with Christ.

4. When God converts a sinner, and translates him into the state of grace, he frees him from his natural bondage under sin; and, by his grace alone, enables him freely to will and to do that which is spiritually good; yet so, as that by reason of his remaining corruption, he does not perfectly, nor only, will that which is good, but does also will that which is evil.
(supports for this include: Col. 1:13 ...who has delivered us from the power of darkness, and has translated us into the kingdom of his dear Son. John 8 34,36 Jesus answered them, Verily, verily I say unto you, Whosoever commits sin is a servant of sin... If the Son therefore shall make you free, you shall be free indeed. Rom 6: 6-7 ...knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin. For he that is dead is freed from sin. Phil. 2:13 For it is God which works in you both to will and to do of his good pleasure Gal. 5:17 For the flesh lusts against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh: and these things are contrary the one to the other: so that you cannot do the things that you would. Rom 7: 14-25 For we know that the law is spiritual: but I am carnal, sold under sin. For that which I do allow I would not: for what I would do, that I do not; but what I hate, that I do. If then I do that which I would not, I consent unto the law that it is good. Now then it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwells in me. For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh), dwells no good thing: for to will is present in me; but how to perform that which is good I find not. For the good that I would I do not: but the evil which I would not, that I do. Now if I do that I would not, it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwells in me. I find then a law, that, when I would do good, evil is present with me. Fro I delight in the law of God after the inward man: but I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members. O wretched man that I am! who will deliver me from the body of this death? I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord. So then with the mind I myself serve the law of God; but with the flesh the law of sin. 1 John 1:8,10 If we say we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us... If we say that we have not sinned, we make him a liar, and his word is not in us.

5. The will of man is made perfectly and immutably free to good alone, in the state of glory only.
(supports for this include: Heb. 12:23 ...to the general assembly and church of the firstborn, which are written in heaven, and to God the Judge of all, and to the spirits of just men made perfect. 1 John 3:2 Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it does not yet appear what we will be: but we know that, when he will appear, we will be like him; for we will see him as he is. Jude 24 Now unto him that is able to keep you from falling, and to present you faultless before the presence of his glory with exceeding joy...)

But from the Westminster Confessions of Faith, I want to here all about how Calvinism supports free-will.

 

[Prim]

I will leave you with a lesson.
What does it take to be wise?
Certainly you have to have the equipment.....an efficient brain above normal.....
You have to have to have the information....education....even if it it is experience....
But then education without experience leaves you short.....
Then you have to have a mind that can reason all of this....
But then to be wise and right you have to understand Christianity as a whole....
Because there have been many people and leaders that were geniuses that were evil....evil geniuses.

A lot of times to be a leader or charismatic, does not take wisdom.

At six years old I was reading the Bible. Some have it and some don't. I was in college at the age of 15....it would have been 14 but there were family issues. I have been in one form of education or another most of my life. Now you can bet that I have known of the men you mentioned and many others. But when these men spent their lives just to come to the wrong conclusions it does not say a lot about them. John Calvin was not stupid....very smart...but not smart enough....He new the Bible but could not put it all together....lacked reasoning. Calvinism dead end with no purpose and still lacks understanding the Bible or Christ or Christianity. And then on top of that blasphemes God....it has no positive feature.

. John Calvin was fully committed to Jesus Christ not only in his monumental works of commentary but also in his preaching from the pulpit and the many schools for children he set forth. And we might also mention his influence upon Switzerland which was going one way Libertine until Calvin was reinstated to reestablish Christianity firmly as their rock. his lasting legacy even influenced the original American constitution which was not only built upon the Magna Carta and the statutes of Ancient Rome but influenced by Calvinist thought too. Yes Calvin was smart intellectually but made even smarter by the wisdom of God. ( Calvinism is a dead end you say and serves no purpose lacks understanding of the bible and Christianity and you also say a Blasphemy unto God himself) Grail One I do think your dislike for John Calvin has unhinged your reasoning of a honest appraisal and history of the man. The reality of that be within the people that hold to those creeds of the bible I see them often and they live Christ honouring and Spirit filled lives contrary to your accusations and slander. That is all I see from your point of view and certainly not a balanced perspective and certainly not love. Perhaps you have tried to love much but have never fully known love or been truly loved Christ hung upon a cross and loved and protected his Bride until the very end.

 

[dhh712]

But from the Westminster Confessions of Faith, I want to here all about how Calvinism supports free-will.

I understand Calvinism to be included in the Westminster Confessions. I'll ask those more familiar with it about it. A majority of people in my church identify as Calvinists and they adhere to the Confessions. The only thing I am familiar with in Calvinism is the five points, which I already discussed and gave Scripture references for, and predestination which I talked about at length already. I really think you may be thinking about hyper- Calvinism.

 

[dhh712]

What I have found doing a quick search is that firstly, yes--you are confusing Calvinism with hyper-Calvinism. It is hyper-Calvinism which describes God as a puppet-master. Secondly, Calvinism does refer to the 5 points and that's about it. Reformed theology can be seen as like an umbrella term which includes the 5 points of Calvinism.

So as far as Calvinism goes I'm not aware of any position on free will; none of the 5 points to my brief consideration of them speak directly of free will (it is indirectly described in unconditional election and irresistible grace and I will point to the chapter in the Westminster Confessions that I posted to flesh out what is understood about free will in these two points). Since most Calvinists are Reformed, that is the doctrine that I went to to define the Calvinist position on free will. If you wish to bring up any reference that defines the Calvinist idea of free will as anything else, please do so. I would be interested in it.

I disagree. And you spend all that time to accuse God of being a monstrous puppet master. And all humanity are robots. Your conclusions are false. Humanity has free-will and we can choose Christ and God did not decide who will be saved or damned before creation....and the 5 points of Calvinism are false.

Not at all; you are confusing hyper-Calvinism with Calvinism as I correctly conjectured. The Bible contradicts your idea that any of us can freely choose God without first being spiritually reborn. See the many verses which I listed which falsify your claim to that. God's word in Ephesians says that he has chosen who will be saved from before the foundations of the world. You can dispute with God about it; it isn't I who has said it but Him.

 

[dhh712]

. John Calvin was fully committed to Jesus Christ not only in his monumental works of commentary but also in his preaching from the pulpit and the many schools for children he set forth. And we might also mention his influence upon Switzerland which was going one way Libertine until Calvin was reinstated to reestablish Christianity firmly as their rock. his lasting legacy even influenced the original American constitution which was not only built upon the Magna Carta and the statutes of Ancient Rome but influenced by Calvinist thought too. Yes Calvin was smart intellectually but made even smarter by the wisdom of God. ( Calvinism is a dead end you say and serves no purpose lacks understanding of the bible and Christianity and you also say a Blasphemy unto God himself) Grail One I do think your dislike for John Calvin has unhinged your reasoning of a honest appraisal and history of the man. The reality of that be within the people that hold to those creeds of the bible I see them often and they live Christ honouring and Spirit filled lives contrary to your accusations and slander. That is all I see from your point of view and certainly not a balanced perspective and certainly not love. Perhaps you have tried to love much but have never fully known love or been truly loved Christ hung upon a cross and loved and protected his Bride until the very end.

Yes, Prim. I agree. He seems to be viciously anti-Calvinism and replies the same way to points which I already successfully disputed (and successful by presenting unadulterated verses of God's word which directly speak against his claims). Yet he repeats the same claims. I am at a loss at how to further discuss. It seems that I am being stonewalled and as I can proceed no further, no further will I go. God has spoken his truth here in the verses which I have referenced. That truth remains to be contested by those who claim that the 5 points of Calvinism are invalid when I have presented verses that support all those claims.

 

[Scott Downey]

What I have found doing a quick search is that firstly, yes--you are confusing Calvinism with hyper-Calvinism. It is hyper-Calvinism which describes God as a puppet-master. Secondly, Calvinism does refer to the 5 points and that's about it. Reformed theology can be seen as like an umbrella term which includes the 5 points of Calvinism.

So as far as Calvinism goes I'm not aware of any position on free will; none of the 5 points to my brief consideration of them speak directly of free will (it is indirectly described in unconditional election and irresistible grace and I will point to the chapter in the Westminster Confessions that I posted to flesh out what is understood about free will in these two points). Since most Calvinists are Reformed, that is the doctrine that I went to to define the Calvinist position on free will. If you wish to bring up any reference that defines the Calvinist idea of free will as anything else, please do so. I would be interested in it.



Not at all; you are confusing hyper-Calvinism with Calvinism as I correctly conjectured. The Bible contradicts your idea that any of us can freely choose God without first being spiritually reborn. See the many verses which I listed which falsify your claim to that. God's word in Ephesians says that he has chosen who will be saved from before the foundations of the world. You can dispute with God about it; it isn't I who has said it but Him.

Hyper Calvinism does not concern me at all. God is always right and everything God does is righteous altogether. God is entirely the reason any people believe in His Son.

1. John 6:28
   Then they said to Him, “What shall we do, that we may work the works of God?”
   In Context | Full Chapter | Other Translations
2. John 6:29
   Jesus answered and said to them, “This is the work of God, that you believe in Him whom He sent.”
   In Context | Full Chapter | Other Translations

I particularly like John 6 as it really shows the power of God in our salvation/ We are not forced into believing, God changes us to make us teachable.

I am commenting here for the sake of any who may read this thread.
God does not do this transformation By His Spirit for every man even though God commands all men repent and believe.
Anytime God has chosen to save someone they will be saved, that cannot be resisted. All of the scriptures only make sense from a Calvinist POV.

Romans 9
19 You will say to me then, “Why does He still find fault? For who has resisted His will?” 20 But indeed, O man, who are you to reply against God? Will the thing formed say to him who formed it, “Why have you made me like this?” 21 Does not the potter have power over the clay, from the same lump to make one vessel for honor and another for dishonor?

I particularly like Ezekiel 36 here showing the work of God, God does things by His Spirit regarding salvation, not by force of the hosts of heaven.

Zechariah 4:5-7 New King James Version
5 Then the angel who talked with me answered and said to me, “Do you not know what these are?”

And I said, “No, my lord.”

6 So he answered and said to me:

“This is the word of the Lord to Zerubbabel:
‘Not by might nor by power, but by My Spirit,’
Says the Lord of hosts.
7 ‘Who are you, O great mountain?
Before Zerubbabel you shall become a plain!
And he shall bring forth the capstone
With shouts of “Grace, grace to it!” ’ ”


God just causes it to happen, and he does these things for the sake of His Holy Name, and to profane people worthy of death, he chooses to put his Spirit in them. That shows this in Ezekiel 36 is about the New Covenant where God indwells directly His people, choosing to save for His name's sake some evil people.

22 “Therefore say to the house of Israel, ‘Thus says the Lord God: “I do not do this for your sake, O house of Israel, but for My holy name’s sake, which you have profaned among the nations wherever you went. 23 And I will sanctify My great name, which has been profaned among the nations, which you have profaned in their midst; and the nations shall know that I am the Lord,” says the Lord God, “when I am hallowed in you before their eyes. 24 For I will take you from among the nations, gather you out of all countries, and bring you into your own land. 25 Then I will sprinkle clean water on you, and you shall be clean; I will cleanse you from all your filthiness and from all your idols. 26 I will give you a new heart and put a new spirit within you; I will take the heart of stone out of your flesh and give you a heart of flesh. 27 I will put My Spirit within you and cause you to walk in My statutes, and you will keep My judgments and do them. 28 Then you shall dwell in the land that I gave to your fathers; you shall be My people, and I will be your God. 29 I will deliver you from all your uncleannesses. I will call for the grain and multiply it, and bring no famine upon you. 30 And I will multiply the fruit of your trees and the increase of your fields, so that you need never again bear the reproach of famine among the nations. 31 Then you will remember your evil ways and your deeds that were not good; and you will loathe yourselves in your own sight, for your iniquities and your abominations. 32 Not for your sake do I do this,” says the Lord God, “let it be known to you. Be ashamed and confounded for your own ways, O house of Israel!”

33 ‘Thus says the Lord God: “On the day that I cleanse you from all your iniquities, I will also enable you to dwell in the cities, and the ruins shall be rebuilt. 34 The desolate land shall be tilled instead of lying desolate in the sight of all who pass by. 35 So they will say, ‘This land that was desolate has become like the garden of Eden; and the wasted, desolate, and ruined cities are now fortified and inhabited.’ 36 Then the nations which are left all around you shall know that I, the Lord, have rebuilt the ruined places and planted what was desolate. I, the Lord, have spoken it, and I will do it.”

37 ‘Thus says the Lord God: “I will also let the house of Israel inquire of Me to do this for them: I will increase their men like a flock. 38 Like a flock offered as holy sacrifices, like the flock at Jerusalem on its feast days, so shall the ruined cities be filled with flocks of men. Then they shall know that I am the Lord.” ’ ”

 

[Scott Downey]

About the washing of regeneration and renewing of the Holy Spirit mentioned in Ezekiel 36, not actual water, Jesus also mentioned born of water and of the Spirit in John 3
5 Jesus answered, “Most assuredly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God.

Titus 3 also points out the same things, if anyone believe, this is only by the mercy of God poured out onto evil people.

Remind them to be subject to rulers and authorities, to obey, to be ready for every good work, 2 to speak evil of no one, to be peaceable, gentle, showing all humility to all men. 3 For we ourselves were also once foolish, disobedient, deceived, serving various lusts and pleasures, living in malice and envy, hateful and hating one another. 4 But when the kindness and the love of God our Savior toward man appeared, 5 not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to His mercy He saved us, through the washing of regeneration and renewing of the Holy Spirit, 6 whom He poured out on us abundantly through Jesus Christ our Savior, 7 that having been justified by His grace we should become heirs according to the hope of eternal life.

8 This is a faithful saying, and these things I want you to affirm constantly, that those who have believed in God should be careful to maintain good works. These things are good and profitable to men.

Avoid Dissension
9 But avoid foolish disputes, genealogies, contentions, and strivings about the law; for they are unprofitable and useless. 10 Reject a divisive man after the first and second admonition, 11 knowing that such a person is warped and sinning, being self-condemned.