How can anyone fall for the errors of Calvinism ?

[Grailhunter]

Not everyone is a member of the New Covenant family of God.

Correct.

 

[dhh712]

I would be careful making any declaration here! Teh bible does not say if God has mercy on babies who die! We shouldn't either. If He chooses to- He has told us its none of our business. but we do know that Unless one is born again- they are not saved!



If we are to use Scriptures as our final arbiter of what to believe on spiritual matters- this is a very problematic statement. Why?

Ephesians 2
King James Version

2 And you hath he quickened, who were dead in trespasses and sins;

2 Wherein in time past ye walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience:

3 Among whom also we all had our conversation in times past in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind; and were by nature the children of wrath, even as others.

If God chooses to save the mentally challenged and infants- it is not for us to declare for He did not explicitly or even implicitly say so. It is this concept you promote here that causes so very many to profess that those who never hear the gospel and never heard teh name Christ can be saved another way that is not prescribed by SCripture.

These are hard statements but true nonetheless.

Oh no, it's not anything that God has declared. It's just my own personal belief. It's certainly possible, but we can't know that. I know a lot of parents who are believers who have lost children in infancy take comfort in believing that their child is with the Lord in heaven. I certainly will not take that away from them. And it is the ordinary means of salvation, the one we are familiar with (faith), that God uses; he is not confined to this. Westminster Confessions does point this out. But this is all speculation. Sorry for the misunderstanding.

 

[Enoch111]

But this is all speculation.

Just like a lot of theology in the Westminster Confession is pure speculation (and also misapplication of certain verses).

 

[Prim]

No I am not saying that.



The thing is when it comes to the scriptures....words mean things

When you are talking Calvinism, which next to the Catholic Church is one of the best documented religions in history, there is no reason to paraphrase. Very specific points and changing the words or moving them around can change the meaning.



God did not just predestined that they would believe a certain thing....it did not just appear in their minds. Christ and the Apostles traveled to them to spread the truth of the Gospels and some choose to believe. Now a days it is more complicated....we may look at modern cultures in a negative manner but still most people understand the basics of Christianity. And I am not going to ignore the works of the Holy Spirit but a person my become curious or reach a point in their life and pick up a Bible to understand the details....The Gideons! Maybe they are bored in a Hotel.



That is a matter of debate and discussion....
The more faith we put in God, the more we allow God to direct our lives.
There is no doubt that the "power" of faith comes from God.
But people can have varying degrees of faith. The more faith you choose to have the better.
Some believe that a person's faith can affect many things....that comes from the person.
God does not give them faith or force faith on them, He gives them the opportunity to make a choice.



This statement is problematic because it is not defined. People like to say they are Sola Scriptoria because it sounds good but the Question is how? Can they be? How many denomination profess Sola Scriptoria? More than 30,000 different denominations, which one is Sola Scripture? How many people believe the world is flat? Do you believe the Apostles were living in the last days? It is more accurate to say our interpretations are from Sola Scriptoria. But even then that is not accurate because to some degree Christianity changed over the 2000 years. Christianity placed a moratorium on polygamy and concubinage and then the Protestants then required a marriage ceremony to be married and introduced a focus on the family....none of that is in the Bible.



The good thing about Augustine is that he wrote books about himself and you can buy them. He admitted that he was the most out of control person he knew. Could not control himself with women so he thought no one could. Messed up his life so much that he developed a hatred for sex and women and his way of controlling it was isolating himself from women. His doctrine of Original Sin was due to his hatred of sex and woman. Sin is like a virus, if you procreate you sin, if you produce a child, you have also produced sin. That women were instruments of the devil to lead us good men to perdition. Read all about it in his writings.

The only Commandment that Yahweh kept repeating in the Old Testament was to be fruitful and multiply...God did not command sin. His Promise to His champions was that their descendants would like the sand of the shore...the dust of the earth and the stars in the sky. He was not promising sin.

Saint Augustine was rather honest with the sexual struggles he contended with. Sexual desire be one of the most inner desires of our being. And yes us ladies do have the power to corrupt and lead almost any man into perdition if we choose, such are the seductive charms of feminine power. Sexual activity certainly wasn’t just about procreation. . Augustine was right in that regard but wrong in that he thought we all think tha same way or choose to do. He is to be commended for his honesty. He certainly got it wrong to some extent in what he recommended. And if followed there would be no continuity of the human race. But did that make him nuts. No. It be merely a struggle he had within himself with the power of sexuality overcoming him to some degree. That mindset does not discriminate with sexual desire whatever you be single or married. As to the flat earth and polygamy they be new subjects to our discussion along with how the early church viewed the Lords return. I’m not about to go there . You say 30,000 denominations is the bible to blame for that. Perhaps merely many branches of the same river. After all God has used many different people and different groups all throughout our histories in his Divine plan. But back to the question of faith and how much God gives. That is entirely up to God it certainly not be something that comes solely from within ourselves. You say you agree with that from your previous reply. Ok. But than you move onto the matter of predestination Calvin merely states what the word of God says to whom God has chosen he did predestinate, he did always know. Do you really believe that God would leave solely the reckoning of someone’s salvation in the hands of mere mortals. No he has simply chosen to use us in his great plan of reconciliation. And if us mere mortals fail to accomplish as we often do. He always has had other means of drawing people unto himself be that of irresistible grace or be that directly from out of a talking donkeys mouth or directly of himself. I have chosen you and you not me.

 

[Grailhunter]

Saint Augustine was rather honest with the sexual struggles he contended with. Sexual desire be one of the most inner desires of our being. And yes us ladies do have the power to corrupt and lead almost any man into perdition if we choose, such are the seductive charms of feminine power. Sexual activity certainly wasn’t just about procreation. . Augustine was right in that regard but wrong in that he thought we all think tha same way or choose to do. He is to be commended for his honesty. He certainly got it wrong to some extent in what he recommended. And if followed there would be no continuity of the human race. But did that make him nuts. No. It be merely a struggle he had within himself with the power of sexuality overcoming him to some degree. That mindset does not discriminate with sexual desire whatever you be single or married. As to the flat earth and polygamy they be new subjects to our discussion along with how the early church viewed the Lords return. I’m not about to go there . You say 30,000 denominations is the bible to blame for that. Perhaps merely many branches of the same river. After all God has used many different people and different groups all throughout our histories in his Divine plan. But back to the question of faith and how much God gives. That is entirely up to God it certainly not be something that comes solely from within ourselves. You say you agree with that from your previous reply. Ok. But than you move onto the matter of predestination Calvin merely states what the word of God says to whom God has chosen he did predestinate, he did always know. Do you really believe that God would leave solely the reckoning of someone’s salvation in the hands of mere mortals. No he has simply chosen to use us in his great plan of reconciliation. And if us mere mortals fail to accomplish as we often do. He always has had other means of drawing people unto himself be that of irresistible grace or be that directly from out of a talking donkeys mouth or directly of himself. I have chosen you and you not me.

It still comes back to there is no purpose or rightness or logic to a planetary puppet show. And Augustine was nuts along with Thomas Aquinas, between the two of them they caused so much sin and misery it is hard to imagine and too despicable to discuss on the forum. Lead the Church down a road of atrocities against women and centuries of degradation against women, both social and physical. It formed the character of the Catholic Church so the low lives ruled.

My reference to the 30,000 denominations was addressing sola scriptura....near all claim sola scriptura, but they are different. So at best they can only partially claim interpretations on sola scriptura.

 

[dhh712]

Well from 49 years of walking with jesus and studying Scripture, I can only see this in SCripture.

1. Unsaved man is fallen and dead in his trespasses and sins. He has no free will to choose God. He may have volitional choices for this life (what toeat, wear etc.) But has no capacity to choose or understand teh things of God.

2. Once th elect come to slavation, free will is restored! Only the saved have the ability to freely choose God or not choose God (sin) the unsaved can only sin.

We are completely dead in our sin and do not have any ability to choose God. That is what is taught in Scripture. God has to give us a spiritual birth in order for us to choose him. When we do, it is of our own free will; God has given us the ability to turn to him.

 

[Prim]

It still comes back to there is no purpose or rightness or logic to a planetary puppet show. And Augustine was nuts along with Thomas Aquinas, between the two of them they caused so much sin and misery it is hard to imagine and too despicable to discuss on the forum. Lead the Church down a road of atrocities against women and centuries of degradation against women, both social and physical. It formed the character of the Catholic Church so the low lives ruled.

My reference to the 30,000 denominations was addressing sola scriptura....near all claim sola scriptura, but they are different. So at best they can only partially claim interpretations on sola scriptura.

You say ( it still comes back to there is no purpose or rightness or logic to a planetary puppet show. ) Grail Hunter what you say be a reality. The purpose of the puppet show be solely in the mind of God to imagine and plan as he chooses it certainly not be without purpose. You seem to think you are above that. Let me pour you a glass of wine or a tranquilliser or maybe light you a cigarette to sooth your somewhat tormented mind of all its grand delusions of self determination or what ever else you so desire in your long war with God. The whole world be a theatre of puppets of which God does hold all the strings. How much freedom you receive is entirely determined by God. Your reference is to the 30,000 denominations is to those addressing sola scripture. Yes I know. Perhaps you will become number 30,001 to add to that equation. And what of the church or similar establishments of authority which have done in what you have stated. It is exactly what it is. Be that against woman, man or child. You don’t think God is incapable of such punishments he did once drown a entire world of humanity subduing them with 40 days and 40 nights of calamity. It be God who determines our final exit from the theatre stage of this life. Your thoughts really come down to a question of free will and how much rope God allows you and how much slack he gives you

 

[dhh712]

Well the responses are going to be the same. What Calvinists propose is that God does very evil things. Putting forth the effort to find the scriptures to support that suggests an intent. The theology of Calvinism is false and blasphemous and that is a black mark on the religion, the effort is what gives the people a bad name.

The other side of the coin is....are there people that like the idea of being a robot or puppet under the control of God?

Calvinism does not propose that God does anything evil. We uphold the doctrine revealed in God's revelation of himself that God is untouched by sin. He has no part in it, is not the author if it, and can not be accountable for anything sinful. We make an effort to correctly define what is being taught in the Bible. If it sounds evil to people, then they are applying their own idea of what is good and evil to God--putting themselves as the judge of God. I personally can not stand the idea of eternal torment and I feel that it sounds very evil entirely. Yet, who am I to say what is good and what is evil? I do not have the right to make moral declarations about a world that I have had nothing to do with in it's being here or in my own presence in being here. This is God's world and it is Him who declares what is good and what is evil.

People look at the clear teachings of Calvinism which are directly from God's revelation of Himself and have been written very clearly down describing how that is and say that that God which is portrayed is evil. That is because it appears that they may not wish to see themselves as deserving of nothing of God but eternal judgment. They feel perhaps that God owes them something because he created them. I'm really not sure why they see God as evil, but these are some of the things that maybe can contribute to it. I see eternal torment as evil because I feel that I have a better moral judgment in eventually ending torment, that it is not right for it to go on and on without end. But that is my own feelings not based on God's revelation of himself.

Once again, over and over again, Calvinism does not propose that anyone is a puppet under the control of God. We have our own free will under the limitations which God has made us (when doesn't include sin for God did not create man sinful but upright). We have inherited a sin nature from Adam and therefore all of our faculties have become corrupted when God cursed the entire creation. We do not have the ability to freely choose God because we are spiritually dead. God has to give us spiritual life. Once he gives that, we freely choose God. He doesn't force us to.

The fixation on being the elect....does this make people feel special or better than others?

It may make some feel better or special than others. I have already responded as to why this should not be the case.

That maybe what you think or feel but that is not the doctrine of Calvinism. If you do not believe in total predestination and the five points of Calvinism....are you a Calvinist? I have had people that claim to be Calvinist explain that they do not totally agree with Calvinism....And that is no surprise. Some do it because their family is Calvinists. With so many variances of beliefs it stands to reason that there will be a lot of individuals that do not agree totally. Trust me when I tell you that preachers know this.....that the beliefs that are sitting in the pews maybe different than what they are preaching.

It's predestination. The double predestination is not Calvinism. For God to elect some people to hell would give him the responsibility of it. Man of his own free will chooses to go to hell because he loves the darkness. He does not want to be with God. It would make God to be that tyrant that you think Calvinism promotes if he forced people to be with him.

I believe in total depravity, which means that all faculties of a human are depraved (not that everyone is as depraved as they can possibly be like some misunderstand it to mean); unconditional election--no one does anything to be elected by God. As it has been clearly defined in God's revelation of Himself (which I guess to some is the same thing as speculating), God has elected those from before the foundations of the world. Limited atonement--the opposite of universalism meaning that God does not save the entire world but only those whom the Father has given him which is also a clear concept in Scripture. Irresistible grace--when God does open someone's eyes, they can't help but be drawn to him, not because God forces them but because he is everything we ever wanted. Once we have spiritual life, our spirits recognize that God is what we have been yearning for all our lives and have finally found it. And perseverance of the saints which means that once God has truly saved someone, they will not be taken from his hand (all that the Father has given me will come to me and I will lose no one). If you need biblical references for irresistible grace and total depravity, I can get them for you later I just don't have the time to dig right now. The other verses came readily to mind and there are a ton more.

Why not? But this belief is not a documented doctrine of Calvinism. It is history....it is said that John Calvin said this and believed this. Some Calvinists agree....Thinking that God Knows the future and some of the baby's future was evil, so God killed them and sent them to hell.

Well, they could. Like I replied, this is not revealed by God just a belief I have. I believe he is merciful and will save whom he wants to. If there are any infants in hell, we can't demand that it is not right that God put them there. All of us who ever lived only deserve the eternal wrath of God. I don't like this idea either but it is a clear one in God's word (again, can provide verses later). To me, that does make God seem evil but it is my own emotions applying that idea, not the word of God. That's why I believe that there aren't any infants who will be separated from God eternally because then I can be reconciled to the idea that God isn't evil (and it definitely is possible, like I pointed out in the one reply above this one). But, who knows what God's choice will be in saving anyone? I can't demand that he does one thing or the other. As he revealed about himself, "I will have mercy upon whom I will have mercy".

Touching someone heart or extending an invitation is one thing....forcing them is another.

As I said over and over again, God doesn't force anyone to do anything. He does open the heart as I have already explained. He gives us spiritual life and only after that can we freely choose God.

Well again some people are comfortable about worshipping evil.....that they expect it from God....that they agree with.....Religion as a lottery.

That's directly from Romans. If that's what you call worshipping evil then when I worship the God of the Bible I worship evil. You can call it whatsoever you wish.

The problem is that it goes against the overall Spirit of Christ and Christianity. It is contrary to the storyline of the Bible. If God predestined people to believe.....they would just believe and the there would have been no need for the Apostles to travel to spread the Word. They could have stayed home and barbequed. Then there is the fact that the concept of total predestination serves no purpose.

They wouldn't just believe. God uses means. The means by which people are saved is (usually) by the preaching of the Gospel. Calvinism does not in any fraction or minute detail go against the Spirit of Christ and Christianity. The doctrines are directly from God's word and takes every single verse into consideration leaving out not one by which to ask, "Does this verse seem to go against what we [the many scholars who collected together to write the Westminster Confessions of Faith] have determined to the best of our ability the Bible tells us about God and man?"

We do not know who is elect and who is not even when someone apparently turns to God. Only God knows the heart. We cannot know that they may actually be one of the poor soil types which Jesus described in his parable of the sower. As John writes in his epistle, "They went out from us so that it can be seen that they were not with us for if they were with us they would have remained".

God uses means, usually people, to carry out his sovereign plan. And not on puppet strings like so many detractors of Calvinism have said. We are free to do what we will (though those who are spiritually dead can not turn to God or do anything good unto salvation not because God prevents them but because they are unable to because they are essentially dead) and God is sovereign in every action of every minute particle in the entire world and all the universe which he has created.

This is not a contradiction which many have said; it only appears to be. We freely choose what we will do. God is sovereign and has ordained everything. We simply can not comprehend how this can be due to our finite minds. Should God be completely comprehended by our finite minds, I propose by logic then that he cannot be God because then he would be a figment of our own imagination.

 

[Ronald Nolette]

We are completely dead in our sin and do not have any ability to choose God. That is what is taught in Scripture. God has to give us a spiritual birth in order for us to choose him. When we do, it is of our own free will; God has given us the ability to turn to him.

This is the grand prize statement of the thread!!!!!

 

[Ronald Nolette]

Once again, over and over again, Calvinism does not propose that anyone is a puppet under the control of God. We have our own free will under the limitations which God has made us (when doesn't include sin for God did not create man sinful but upright). We have inherited a sin nature from Adam and therefore all of our faculties have become corrupted when God cursed the entire creation. We do not have the ability to freely choose God because we are spiritually dead. God has to give us spiritual life. Once he gives that, we freely choose God. He doesn't force us to

But the reality is we are puppets.

Bob Dylanj, in his "Christian days" wrote a song that carried lots of wisdom-- "you gotta serve somebody!" We are given our free will restored to us, so we may simply become bond slaves to Jesus!

Now we do exercise our will in rebellion when we sin, but God knew that when He saved us! We are saved despite God knowing how many times we would fail after being saved!

But our will is never truly free, that is the paradox of free will . It always will serve God or sin.

 

[Grailhunter]

You say ( it still comes back to there is no purpose or rightness or logic to a planetary puppet show. ) Grail Hunter what you say be a reality. The purpose of the puppet show be solely in the mind of God to imagine and plan as he chooses it certainly not be without purpose. You seem to think you are above that. Let me pour you a glass of wine or a tranquilliser or maybe light you a cigarette to sooth your somewhat tormented mind of all its grand delusions of self determination or what ever else you so desire in your long war with God. The whole world be a theatre of puppets of which God does hold all the strings. How much freedom you receive is entirely determined by God. Your reference is to the 30,000 denominations is to those addressing sola scripture. Yes I know. Perhaps you will become number 30,001 to add to that equation. And what of the church or similar establishments of authority which have done in what you have stated. It is exactly what it is. Be that against woman, man or child. You don’t think God is incapable of such punishments he did once drown a entire world of humanity subduing them with 40 days and 40 nights of calamity. It be God who determines our final exit from the theatre stage of this life. Your thoughts really come down to a question of free will and how much rope God allows you and how much slack he gives you

Wrong on all counts.

 

[Grailhunter]

Calvinism does not propose that God does anything evil.

Of course not! Calvinism believes evil is good.

The means by which people are saved is (usually) by the preaching of the Gospel. Calvinism does not in any fraction or minute detail go against the Spirit of Christ and Christianity.

Calvinism is blasphemy against God and a faulty theology. I am not sure if they read the Bible, they believe what they believe and only go to the Bible to look for scriptures they think supports their beliefs.

Their belief that God determined who will be save before creation is false.
The OSAS aspect of Calvinism is false.
The ODAD aspect of Calvinism is false.....Once Damned Always Damned.
Their belief that God has turned humans into robots is false.
The five points of Calvinism are false.

We do not know who is elect and who is not even when someone apparently turns to God. Only God knows the heart. We cannot know that they may actually be one of the poor soil types which Jesus described in his parable of the sower. As John writes in his epistle, "They went out from us so that it can be seen that they were not with us for if they were with us they would have remained".

That is right, Calvinists do not know if they are saved....limited atonement?
Christian do and all that are saved are the elect.

God uses means, usually people, to carry out his sovereign plan. And not on puppet strings like so many detractors of Calvinism have said. We are free to do what we will

You apparently do not know Calvinism well. Total predestination or total control is a tenet of Calvinism. The definition of God sovereignty according to Calvinists is total control.....For Christians it mean Yahweh is God, Yeshua is God, the Holy Spirit is God.

We freely choose what we will do.

This is directly opposed to Calvinist beliefs. The last time a person that called themselves Calvinist said this to me, they were furious when they found out the truth. Calvinists are so deceptive that people going to their church may not find out the truth for years. There is no such thing as a free-will Calvinist.

 

[Prim]

Wrong on all counts.

Wrong all accounts you say. I was kind of expecting that. Think as you wish.

 

[Grailhunter]

Wrong all accounts you say. I was kind of expecting that. Think as you wish.

Am I to assume you are Calvinist. If so, you are one of a few Calvinist females on this forum. Usually Calvinists keep their females bridled. I like to see the female voice in Christianity.

 

[Ronald Nolette]

Wrong all accounts you say. I was kind of expecting that. Think as you wish.

And who is this addressed to.

 

[Prim]

And who is this addressed to.

It not be addressed to the Mr Ronald Nolette. It be addressed to the Grail one

 

[Ronald Nolette]

It not be addressed to the Mr Ronald Nolette. It be addressed to the Grail one

Thanks!

 

[Prim]

Am I to assume you are Calvinist. If so, you are one of a few Calvinist females on this forum. Usually Calvinists keep their females bridled. I like to see the female voice in Christianity.

I like their thinking very much they talk of a Supreme Ruler and a Strong God they be very biblically and intellectually minded. I guess when you have the likes of George Whitfield, Martin Loyd Jones, Charles Spurgeon and Arthur Pink in agreement with many Calvinist beliefs it is not a light thing to come across a post that claims ( how can anyone fall for the errors of Calvinist belief ) As to the bridal in the mouth bit. At church yes all except when singing or when I be chatted to. Though I’m not sure how that fares outside of the church. One might think they be at the rodeo if you were to try and bridal and ride me. I tend to do buck a lot you know. Especially when someone tries to put me on the leash. No I not be Presbyterian but I do respect their religion very much.

 

[Grailhunter]

I like their thinking very much they talk of a Supreme Ruler and a Strong God they be very biblically and intellectually minded. I guess when you have the likes of George Whitfield, Martin Loyd Jones, Charles Spurgeon and Arthur Pink in agreement with many Calvinist beliefs it is not a light thing to come across a post that claims ( how can anyone fall for the errors of Calvinist belief ) As to the bridal in the mouth bit. At church yes all except when singing or when I be chatted to. Though I’m not sure how that fares outside of the church. One might think they be at the rodeo if you were to try and bridal and ride me. I tend to do buck a lot you know. Especially when someone tries to put me on the leash. No I not be Presbyterian but I do respect their religion very much.

Well then let me tell you this.....what goes on here are discussions and debates on theology. They can get heated for example I reject Calvinism and Jehovah's Witnesses and OSAS. That has no reflection on you so don't get offended when that happens. As far as I am concerned there are some types of witches that believe in Christ and I think they will fair better than Calvinists and Jehovah's Witnesses. Calvinists blaspheme God and the Jehovah's Witnesses deny the Deity of Christ and OSAS are an instrument of the Devil to promote sin.

Very few Religions have a virtual smorgasbord of denominations and most can lead to salvation.....so there is no excuse for you to pick a religion that offends God, has no purpose, and makes no sense. God Bless.

 

[Prim]

Well then let me tell you this.....what goes on here are discussions and debates on theology. They can get heated for example I reject Calvinism and Jehovah's Witnesses and OSAS. That has no reflection on you so don't get offended when that happens. As far as I am concerned there are some types of witches that believe in Christ and I think they will fair better than Calvinists and Jehovah's Witnesses. Calvinists blaspheme God and the Jehovah's Witnesses deny the Deity of Christ and OSAS are an instrument of the Devil to promote sin.

Very few Religions have a virtual smorgasbord of denominations and most can lead to salvation.....so there is no excuse for you to pick a religion that offends God, has no purpose, and makes no sense. God Bless.

The Presbyterian creed of faith. That be the standard creed amongst most Christian churches. So far the reading of the God as in all the churches of Australasia. And I’m sure the standard creed of the universal church too. I can’t remember the Presbyterian church ever being listed as a cult amongst the Christian faith. At least until coming upon the post of the Mr Grail which reads more like the story of a madman.. What manner of religion do you belong? I dare say you very much have the Anglicans and Baptists listed in your kingdom of the cults list soon enough. And who know probably the entirety of the Protestant reformation too. Primmy not be sure about your God bless. You failed to address all those great men of the faith that I mentioned who believe likewise of the Calvinist ones theology .