How can the rapture be anything but pre-trib???

[michaelvpardo]

. Prewrath believes the church will be here through the great trib and the majority of the church will be martyred.

I haven't heard this from anyone who believes in a pre-wrath "rapture". Every preacher that I've ever heard speak upon the doctrine has claimed that the church will be removed prior to the great tribulation, and that the "tribulation saints" are all people saved after the church is gone. A number of teachers from the Calvary Chapel movement even refer to the rapture as the "blessed hope of the church" (which I've always understood to be the resurrection of the just and entering into eternity in God's presence.) Popular teachers on radio and TV tend to equate the two because 1st Thessalonians definitely speaks to the first resurrection, though it doesn't place the first resurrection in any specific order with regard to the events of the great tribulation. The only verses of scripture that state an order of the events is in chapter 20 of the book of the Revelation of Jesus Christ. The point of the question that you referenced in your post was that those who find themselves in the midst of the tribulation period and were expecting to be raptured prior to it will experience a crisis of faith caused by a false understanding of scripture. How that crisis affects them would tend to depend on the sincerity of their faith and the strength of their relationship with the Lord. What I hear such preachers say is something like this " I wouldn't want to be here during the great tribulation." The obvious response is "who in their right mind would want to be here at that time, but how does what we want or desire influence God's redemptive plan?"
Is God moved by our will and prayer, or does the Lord conform us to His will through the process of prayer?

Let the saints be joyful in glory; Let them sing aloud on their beds. Let the high praises of God be in their mouth, And a two-edged sword in their hand, To execute vengeance on the nations, And punishments on the peoples; To bind their kings with chains, And their nobles with fetters of iron; To execute on them the written judgment This honor have all His saints. Praise the Lord!
Psalm 149 verses 5 to 9

 

[Marcus O'Reillius]

I haven't heard this from anyone who believes in a pre-wrath "rapture".

Pre-Wrath places the Rapture in the one 'seven,' after the midpoint abomination, after the Great Tribulation - on the Day of the Lord - and before the Wrath of God, which also follows, starting on the Day of the Lord and culminating some time later at the end of the one 'seven' at Armageddon which is finished with the Great Earthquake.

Now you've heard it twice.

I am Pre-Wrath in my eschatology.

 

[n2thelight]

Pre-Wrath places the Rapture in the one 'seven,' after the midpoint abomination, after the Great Tribulation - on the Day of the Lord - and before the Wrath of God, which also follows, starting on the Day of the Lord and culminating some time later at the end of the one 'seven' at Armageddon which is finished with the Great Earthquake.

Now you've heard it twice.

I am Pre-Wrath in my eschatology.

I feel the Day of the Lord and His wrath occur at the same time......

 

[Trekson]

Hi Michael, Your words: "I haven't heard this from anyone who believes in a pre-wrath "rapture".

Pre-wrath is very different from pre-trib. The only belief we share with pre-tribbers is the belief that there will be a rapture, where living christians will meet the Lord in the air, which is the only thing the word "rapture" implies.

Your words: "The only verses of scripture that state an order of the events is in chapter 20 of the book of the Revelation of Jesus Christ."

I believe that the saints mentioned in cp.20 are the "last" fruits of the "first" resurrection which began with Christ. That is the only "order" I see there. If you see something different, please share what that order looks like and where living christians are shown. We may be regenerated but we won't be resurrected.

Hi N2, Your words: "I feel the Day of the Lord and His wrath occur at the same time......"

That's the same thing that Marcus was saying. The wrath of the Lamb as depicted at the end of Rev. 6 is introduced by the signs of Day of the Lord which are the signs of the 6th seal.

 

[n2thelight]

Hi Michael, Your words: "I haven't heard this from anyone who believes in a pre-wrath "rapture".

Pre-wrath is very different from pre-trib. The only belief we share with pre-tribbers is the belief that there will be a rapture, where living christians will meet the Lord in the air, which is the only thing the word "rapture" implies.

Your words: "The only verses of scripture that state an order of the events is in chapter 20 of the book of the Revelation of Jesus Christ."

I believe that the saints mentioned in cp.20 are the "last" fruits of the "first" resurrection which began with Christ. That is the only "order" I see there. If you see something different, please share what that order looks like and where living christians are shown. We may be regenerated but we won't be resurrected.

Hi N2, Your words: "I feel the Day of the Lord and His wrath occur at the same time......"

That's the same thing that Marcus was saying. The wrath of the Lamb as depicted at the end of Rev. 6 is introduced by the signs of Day of the Lord which are the signs of the 6th seal.

I feel satan as the anti christ comes at the 6th seal 6th trump and 6th vial,whereas Christ returns at the 7th seal 7th trump and 7th vial

 

[rockytopva]

I feel satan as the anti christ comes at the 6th seal 6th trump and 6th vial,whereas Christ returns at the 7th seal 7th trump and 7th vial

Then it is rather well announced. Remember... Christ comes as a thief in the night... Unannounced. Would a thief sound six trumpets before he robs a house ???

 

[Trekson]

Hi N2, I see, you view the seals, trumpets and vials as parallel to each other while pre-wrath views them as sequential as written.

 

[n2thelight]

Then it is rather well announced. Remember... Christ comes as a thief in the night... Unannounced. Would a thief sound six trumpets before he robs a house ???

Rocky,I am not in darkness that the Day would overtake me,so scriptually speaking,I think I'll be aware of those trumps

But ye, brethren, are not in darkness, that that day should overtake you as a thief.
1 Thess 5:4

Hi N2, I see, you view the seals, trumpets and vials as parallel to each other while pre-wrath views them as sequential as written.

Hey Trekson

This is something Im still learning,yes I'm leaning that way,however Im not convinced the seals are in order...Take the below verse for example
Revelation
And I saw when the Lamb opened one of the seals, and I heard, as it were the noise of thunder, one of the four beasts saying, Come and see.

Notice it says one of the seals,yet it dos'nt say which one.........With that said I do think they(seals trumps and vials)match up...

Especially the Trumps and the Vials of those I have no doubt of their matching....

Interesting study at the link below,if you care to read it,let me know what you think..........

http://www.readandrun.co.uk/pages/TrumpetsAndVialsOfSeventhSeal.html

 

[Trekson]

Hi N2, Well, I read the article you offered and I have some comments about it but first I want to address this statement you made: “This is something I’m still learning, yes I'm leaning that way, however I’m not convinced the seals are in order...Take the below verse for example
[SIZE=10.5pt]Revelation 6:1 – “[/SIZE]And I saw when the Lamb opened one of the seals, and I heard, as it were the noise of thunder, one of the four beasts saying, Come and see. Notice it says one of the seals, yet it doesn’t say which one.........With that said I do think they(seals trumps and vials)match up...”

While the verse may not say directly it was the first seal, when you take the whole chapter in context, it obviously was, as the list continues, second seal, third seal, etc. Now on to the article:

The author makes a good attempt at justifying his position but there are, imo, some basic points which are in error which leads to his ultimate conclusions.

The author stated that: “They both have seven instances and they both have a common ending, i.e. the return of Christ with the Saints at Armageddon. That rules out the two accounts being completely separate sequences. There is only one ending. Put simply, they both end ‘at the end.”

There is nothing in scripture at the 7th trump (Rev. 11:15-19) where it alludes to it being the “end”. The voices are speaking “forward in faith” to the soon coming end but there is no picture given as there is at the end of the vials that Christ is “on His way”. Rev. 19:11.

Then the author makes this statement: “To say seven pairs matching each other to any degree on such a random choice of subjects are not the same, is what should be in doubt.”

There is absolutely “nothing random” about God’s plan and design. When God is judging the earth is shouldn’t be uncommon that events happen or are poured out over the earth. That the events are similar also shouldn’t be surprising because it’s a matter of degrees. He compares the judgments to the plagues of Egypt but totally misses the connection. The plagues started out mild but got worse each time pharaoh refused to repent, hardened his heart and refused to let God’s people go. The same happens in the latter days. After the sixth trumpet we have this report: Rev. 9:20-21 – “And the rest of the men which were not killed by these plagues yet repented not of the works of their hands, that they should not worship devils, and idols of gold, and silver, and brass, and stone, and of wood: which neither can see, nor hear, nor walk: 21 Neither repented they of their murders, nor of their sorceries, nor of their fornication, nor of their thefts.”

God does the same thing. He causes some events and judgments (the trumpets) to occur on the earth in general in the hopes of getting men to repent but they again harden their hearts and refuse; so God doubles down on the judgments with the vials and this time he gets more specific and occasionally targets those who worship the beast (Rev. 16:2, 6, 10) and in many places it’s recorded that “men blasphemed God and repented not”. The end of the vials is the “end” not the trumpets!

I think the biggest error the author made was with this statement: “The beast’s territory is Europe.”

I believe that the scriptures plainly show that the beast’s territory is the Middle East with his headquarters being in Jerusalem! If there is any smidgen of truth to the idea of a “revived Roman empire”, it’s not a western/European one but a revived “eastern” one. This falls more into line with many of the OT prophecies that list specific nations concerning this time. One has to look at the “whole” of prophecy to get a more accurate picture but no one will ever get it 100% because there are too many parts that have never been revealed. (ex. Rev. 10)

 

[n2thelight]

Hi N2, Well, I read the article you offered and I have some comments about it but first I want to address this statement you made: “This is something I’m still learning, yes I'm leaning that way, however I’m not convinced the seals are in order...Take the below verse for example
[SIZE=10.5pt]Revelation 6:1 – “[/SIZE]And I saw when the Lamb opened one of the seals, and I heard, as it were the noise of thunder, one of the four beasts saying, Come and see. Notice it says one of the seals, yet it doesn’t say which one.........With that said I do think they(seals trumps and vials)match up...”

While the verse may not say directly it was the first seal, when you take the whole chapter in context, it obviously was, as the list continues, second seal, third seal, etc. Now on to the article:

The author makes a good attempt at justifying his position but there are, imo, some basic points which are in error which leads to his ultimate conclusions.

The author stated that: “They both have seven instances and they both have a common ending, i.e. the return of Christ with the Saints at Armageddon. That rules out the two accounts being completely separate sequences. There is only one ending. Put simply, they both end ‘at the end.”

There is nothing in scripture at the 7th trump (Rev. 11:15-19) where it alludes to it being the “end”. The voices are speaking “forward in faith” to the soon coming end but there is no picture given as there is at the end of the vials that Christ is “on His way”. Rev. 19:11.

Then the author makes this statement: “To say seven pairs matching each other to any degree on such a random choice of subjects are not the same, is what should be in doubt.”

There is absolutely “nothing random” about God’s plan and design. When God is judging the earth is shouldn’t be uncommon that events happen or are poured out over the earth. That the events are similar also shouldn’t be surprising because it’s a matter of degrees. He compares the judgments to the plagues of Egypt but totally misses the connection. The plagues started out mild but got worse each time pharaoh refused to repent, hardened his heart and refused to let God’s people go. The same happens in the latter days. After the sixth trumpet we have this report: Rev. 9:20-21 – “And the rest of the men which were not killed by these plagues yet repented not of the works of their hands, that they should not worship devils, and idols of gold, and silver, and brass, and stone, and of wood: which neither can see, nor hear, nor walk: 21 Neither repented they of their murders, nor of their sorceries, nor of their fornication, nor of their thefts.”

God does the same thing. He causes some events and judgments (the trumpets) to occur on the earth in general in the hopes of getting men to repent but they again harden their hearts and refuse; so God doubles down on the judgments with the vials and this time he gets more specific and occasionally targets those who worship the beast (Rev. 16:2, 6, 10) and in many places it’s recorded that “men blasphemed God and repented not”. The end of the vials is the “end” not the trumpets!

I think the biggest error the author made was with this statement: “The beast’s territory is Europe.”

I believe that the scriptures plainly show that the beast’s territory is the Middle East with his headquarters being in Jerusalem! If there is any smidgen of truth to the idea of a “revived Roman empire”, it’s not a western/European one but a revived “eastern” one. This falls more into line with many of the OT prophecies that list specific nations concerning this time. One has to look at the “whole” of prophecy to get a more accurate picture but no one will ever get it 100% because there are too many parts that have never been revealed. (ex. Rev. 10)

I think the Authors statement of " random" was meant to show that God's Word is perfect,I did'nt see it the way you did....I do agree with you on the beast .....

Thanks for taking the time to read the article,and even more for a civil conversation in His Word....That's how I think it should be as we should all be still growing..........

 

[michaelvpardo]

Hi Michael, Your words: "I haven't heard this from anyone who believes in a pre-wrath "rapture".

Pre-wrath is very different from pre-trib. The only belief we share with pre-tribbers is the belief that there will be a rapture, where living christians will meet the Lord in the air, which is the only thing the word "rapture" implies.

Your words: "The only verses of scripture that state an order of the events is in chapter 20 of the book of the Revelation of Jesus Christ."

I believe that the saints mentioned in cp.20 are the "last" fruits of the "first" resurrection which began with Christ. That is the only "order" I see there. If you see something different, please share what that order looks like and where living christians are shown. We may be regenerated but we won't be resurrected.

Hi N2, Your words: "I feel the Day of the Lord and His wrath occur at the same time......"

That's the same thing that Marcus was saying. The wrath of the Lamb as depicted at the end of Rev. 6 is introduced by the signs of Day of the Lord which are the signs of the 6th seal.

Your explanation of a pre-wrath rapture as opposed to a pre-tribulation rapture aligns somewhat with my understanding, but pre-wrath is a misnomer and lends itself to confusion for the simple reason that the wrath of God, has been, is, and will be revealed from heaven, upon all flesh. The book of Romans tells us that God's wrath is revealed in giving up those who know that He is, but don't worship Him, to unnatural sexual desires (among other things.) This isn't something that's going to happen only during that final period of God's wrath described in the book of the Revelation of Jesus Christ, but something that has been happening through out history (the most notable of examples being the cities of the plain of Sodom and Gomorrah). When God ordered the invading Israelites to put all the inhabitants of Canaan to the ban, He was expressing His wrath against that wicked people. In the book of Jeremiah we read about the cup of God's fury, handed to Jerusalem, and then to the nations, this was an expression of God's wrath then, and will be again right up to the last great battle. The flood account in the book of Genesis is also another terrible expression of God's wrath. But in all these cases the wrath being described, is all about temporal judgment, not eternal. When the apostle Paul described all of humanity as being creatures of wrath prior to receiving Christ, and as Jesus Himself described in chapter 3 of John's gospel of those who didn't receive His testimony, they were speaking of eternal judgments, not temporal ones (we all know people that died peacefully but were in no way Christian, so their judgment is not going to be carried out during those judgments described as occurring prior to the great white throne judgment.) The judgment of nations or kingdoms is not the same as the judgment of individuals. This is in part due to the fact that there are powers in the heavenly places that have a part in the rule over the earth, until Christ returns in glory for His kingdom. The judgments against the nations, are to a large degree, judgments against the rulers of those nations, but God has clearly given rulers to peoples according to their evil intentions and wicked desires, so He remains just in all that He does.

 

[Marcus O'Reillius]

Well with Pre-Wrath, you can legitimately say God's Wrath is going to be dealt upon ALL flesh, because the Church is outta here at that time!

But really, the concept of 'all that is applicable' rather than our culture's insistence upon absolutely, air-tight 100% makes more sense since the Remnant is protected by God through this time.

 

[Trekson]

Hi Michael, You made a couple of statements that I don't quite understand. First: "The flood account in the book of Genesis is also another terrible expression of God's wrath. But in all these cases the wrath being described, is all about temporal judgment, not eternal."

Once you're dead doesn't everything become eternal? There has only been one case mentioned in 1 Pet. 3:19-20 where humanity was given a second chance after death. We shouldn't assume that to be the norm. Besides the flood, there are two "end of the world as we know it" wraths to come. The one at the latter part of the 70th week culminating in Armageddon and the one at the end of the millennium where the earth will be destroyed by fire. In my opinion, even though the dead will have to stand at the GWTJ, once they've departed from the earthly realm their eternal fate is already decided. That doesn't mean I believe they will all go to hell but God will issue a righteous judgment at that time.

Secondly, you said: "In the book of Jeremiah we read about the cup of God's fury, handed to Jerusalem, and then to the nations, this was an expression of God's wrath then, and will be again right up to the last great battle."

For the sake of others, this is found in Jer. 25:10-38. This is one of those occasions where there are duo prophecies in place that have both a near and far fulfillment. Specifically, it is foretelling of Israel's 70 year captivity to Babylon but also it is speaking of the latter end of Daniel's 70th week. Consider these scriptures.

Jer. 25:10 - "Moreover I will take from them the voice of mirth, and the voice of gladness, the voice of the bridegroom, and the voice of the bride, the sound of the millstones, and the light of the candle."

Rev. 18:22-23 - "And the voice of harpers, and musicians, and of pipers, and trumpeters, shall be heard no more at all in thee; and no craftsman, of whatsoever craft he be, shall be found any more in thee; and the sound of a millstone shall be heard no more at all in thee;
23 And the light of a candle shall shine no more at all in thee; and the voice of the bridegroom and of the bride shall be heard no more at all in thee: for thy merchants were the great men of the earth; for by thy sorceries were all nations deceived."

Jer. 25:15 - "For thus saith the Lord God of Israel unto me; Take the wine cup of this fury at my hand, and cause all the nations, to whom I send thee, to drink it."

Rev. 14:10 - "The same shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out without mixture into the cup of his indignation; and he shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels, and in the presence of the Lamb:"

The bible says, "the rain falls on the just and unjust alike" and in that situation I agree with your "temporal" wrath position but outside of that, if God's wrath is specifically (for example) on those who rec'd the mark of the beast, then it becomes eternal and not temporal. Do you see the difference?

 

[heretoeternity]

Rapture is as plain as black and white....

1. Falling away
2. Revealing of the anti Christ
3. We are outta here!

2 Thessalonians 2:2-4

2 That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand.

3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;

4 Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God.

Revelation 17 and 18 the false prophet has been around for seventeen hundred years, and anti christs as well..Apostle John in 1st John 2...the falling away has also been happening for this period of time as well..the white horse is has been galloping for a long time, the red horse of war, the black horse of famine has not touched the western countries to any great extent, but will come, the pale horse of death through disease and pestilence is picking up momentum..it appears the tribulation is about to begin full speed in the next few years..the only way we can avoid this is to be dead, or pray to God to deliver us through it Revelation 12, 13...But those who persevere to the end will be saved Matthew 24

 

[michaelvpardo]

Hi Michael, You made a couple of statements that I don't quite understand. First: "The flood account in the book of Genesis is also another terrible expression of God's wrath. But in all these cases the wrath being described, is all about temporal judgment, not eternal."


The bible says, "the rain falls on the just and unjust alike" and in that situation I agree with your "temporal" wrath position but outside of that, if God's wrath is specifically (for example) on those who rec'd the mark of the beast, then it becomes eternal and not temporal. Do you see the difference?

I see the difference, but how did those who existed prior to the beast receive his mark? They obviously didn't, so does this mean that none of them will suffer God's wrath? Of course not. We understand biblically that all men are creatures of wrath until they come to receive Jesus Christ. Its easy to understand from the point of view of the gospel that men are saved from eternal wrath by faith in Jesus Christ, and that even prior to His birth it was possible for men of faith to be looking forward to His coming as in the testimony of Moses, King David, and all of the prophets.
In scripture God promises to judge all flesh and by all accounts it appears that He does; I've never met someone over the age of about 103 or 104 years: Everyone sins, everyone dies. All of us are judged in our flesh and the only exceptions that I'm aware of might be Enoch and Elijah, who are both held up as examples of God's ability (and plan?) to remove us from this earth directly. We have scripture in 1st Thessalonians that tells us that those who are alive at His return will be transformed into His likeness and gathered up to meet Him in the air and in these there is either an exception to God's promise to judge all flesh, or His promise to do so must be satisfied in the propitiatory sacrifice of His Son. I don't know where "the lake of fire" exists or will exist so I can't say that eternal judgment will occur somewhere other than here on earth, but it clearly doesn't occur until the second resurrection and the great white throne judgment.
Its also obvious that once we're dead, we are no longer capable of doing anything to alter the judgment of our lives. God has appointed Jesus to be the judge of the living and the dead (all of them not just those that have known Him or about Him) and there is no injustice in Him. The question which I don't find an easy answer to, is this, "If God judges a person in their flesh according to their sin, so that they die (and we all do), will He judge them a second time for the same offenses?"(at the second resurrection and white throne judgment.)
The gospel that I usually hear tells me that the only escape from the wrath of God is by receiving His Son by faith, and that all others will be cast into the lake of fire (including hell.) Intellectually I have no problem accepting the idea that people choose Hell and eternal destruction by rejecting the only gift given by God for our salvation, the person of His own Son. Emotionally, I have a hard time reconciling the gospel (as just stated) to the character of God as revealed in His Son.
We can always bring up the villains of history as examples of people worthy of eternal destruction (in our own minds), but when it comes to considering infants and children that have no understanding of who God is, or even adults that are ignorant of the redeeming love of God, it gets a little more difficult to view the punishment of eternal damnation as something just.
I understand that none of us have the perspective of God and consequently none of us are capable of being entirely just in our judgments, but what could I (or anyone else) suffer in my flesh that I haven't deserved according to God's standards (which are perfection?)
Having believed God, if a rock the size of a mountain falls on my head, am I experiencing God's wrath? Or if I contract Ebola or some other 21st century plague, and I suffer a gruesome death with the name of Jesus upon my lips, will I have experienced God's wrath? If I fall off of a building while at work, or get run over in a roadway, or crushed by a train while working in the track areas, will I have suffered God's wrath? Some Pastors like to point out that Samson's eyes got him into trouble and it was just of God to let him have his sight taken from him (we're really good at coming up with appropriate punishments for sin), but if that was a judgment against Samson for his sin, was it then God's wrath?
I think that the scripture tells us that God created everyone since the fall as creatures of wrath, and in this, creatures to both experience wrath and to be used as instruments of wrath. The angels of the pit are angels of destruction: They destroy and will be destroyed.
As far as I can see from scripture, the Lord's intent has always been to redeem Himself a special people from among us creatures of wrath, that are given a new nature to be fulfilled in His likeness and after the person of His Son, no longer as creatures of wrath, but as children of God, blessed with grace received and grace given to an eternal life of love, peace, and joy. In other words, we that have been chosen for redemption are not appointed to wrath, but to grace and completion in Jesus Christ. If this is true, what does wrath have to do with the life of a believer in our Lord? How does a moment or even a lifetime of pain mean anything at all in the perspective of eternity in God's presence? How can anything we experience in this life be compared to eternal wrath?
I don't want to experience "the great tribulation" any more than I want to experience the insignificant trials that I have now or have experienced in the past, but what does that have to do with experiencing the wrath of God?
I don't think that the Lord is trapped by semantics, but it seems like the whole notion of a pre-tribulation rapture is built on semantics, rather than any plain and simple understanding of scripture.
At the age of 58, I can already say that life is but a vapor that you see for a moment and then vanishes, so its safe to say that we'll all see the truth of the matter soon enough. Just the same, I expect to witness the judgment of this earth (because God has promised this to His saints) and I can't say that I have anything but mixed emotions about it. Will the Lord cry on that day? I long to see my Lord and I long to see His righteous kingdom, but I'd be content to skip the nastiness in between, however that's my flesh talking. My flesh doesn't like the hard life or the hard way. It doesn't like suffering hunger or thirst, pain, or any discomfort, but I can imagine all these things, and what I can't imagine is eternal life without them (though it seems like a really good idea.)
Now, this has been a long and rambling response, which probably has more to do with the disappointments of the day than any desire of theological accuracy, but I believe that I've said more than any sane man should about things which aren't explicitly described in scripture, so I'll take my leave, respect you all to your opinions, and stand upon what scripture says, rather than upon what it doesn't say as this seems more sound than the latter.

 

[Trekson]

Hi Michael, Your words: “The question which I don't find an easy answer to, is this, "If God judges a person in their flesh according to their sin, so that they die (and we all do), will He judge them a second time for the same offenses?"(at the second resurrection and white throne judgment.)”

The short answer is, I don’t see death as an act of wrath or judgment, it is just the design of God since the fall. We were created as eternal beings but since Adam sinned, death has entered into the DNA of humanity. Heb. 9:27 tells us: “And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment:” so death in and of itself isn’t judgment. If we are believers we have been judged guilty but forgiven because Christ paid the penalty for us. The unsaved will await their turn at the GWTJ. Remember that the only man that never sinned, still died. There is only one judgment.

Your words: “Emotionally, I have a hard time reconciling the gospel (as just stated) to the character of God as revealed in His Son.”

I think all Christians struggle with the concept of eternal damnation. That seems a very long sentence for a short time of sin regardless of how evil it was. Having been raised a Pentecostal I’ve heard many “hellfire and damnation” sermons in my childhood. There is a teaching “out there” that the “second death” isn’t eternal damnation but a complete cessation of existence. Never being remembered, it would be as if we never existed. As horrible as that sounds I think I would prefer that to an eternity in hell. All we can do is have faith that God is a just and merciful God and the “punishment” will fit the crime.

Your words: “Having believed God, if a rock the size of a mountain falls on my head, am I experiencing God's wrath? Or if I contract Ebola or some other 21st century plague, and I suffer a gruesome death with the name of Jesus upon my lips, will I have experienced God's wrath? If I fall off of a building while at work, or get run over in a roadway, or crushed by a train while working in the track areas, will I have suffered God's wrath? Some Pastors like to point out that Samson's eyes got him into trouble and it was just of God to let him have his sight taken from him (we're really good at coming up with appropriate punishments for sin), but if that was a judgment against Samson for his sin, was it then God's wrath?”

These are all very good questions and no as stated earlier I don’t believe death of any sort is a part of God’s ‘wrath”, unless specifically designed that way. This brings to mind a verse: Matt. 10:28 – “And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.”

This verse is telling us that as believers we shouldn’t be afraid to die. It’s not an end, it’s our beginning. It’s a “going home” type of celebration. We have eternal life and “death” was defeated at the cross.

Your words: “As far as I can see from scripture, the Lord's intent has always been to redeem Himself a special people from among us creatures of wrath, that are given a new nature to be fulfilled in His likeness and after the person of His Son, no longer as creatures of wrath, but as children of God, blessed with grace received and grace given to an eternal life of love, peace, and joy. In other words, we that have been chosen for redemption are not appointed to wrath, but to grace and completion in Jesus Christ. If this is true, what does wrath have to do with the life of a believer in our Lord? How does a moment or even a lifetime of pain mean anything at all in the perspective of eternity in God's presence? How can anything we experience in this life be compared to eternal wrath?”

I totally agree with this sentiment. Well said.

Your words: “I don't want to experience "the great tribulation" any more than I want to experience the insignificant trials that I have now or have experienced in the past, but what does that have to do with experiencing the wrath of God?”

I agree that the great trib is a separate time apart from God’s wrath.

Your words: “I don't think that the Lord is trapped by semantics, but it seems like the whole notion of a pre-tribulation rapture is built on semantics, rather than any plain and simple understanding of scripture.”

I agree with that statement as well.

Your words: “At the age of 58, I can already say that life is but a vapor that you see for a moment and then vanishes, so its safe to say that we'll all see the truth of the matter soon enough. Just the same, I expect to witness the judgment of this earth (because God has promised this to His saints) and I can't say that I have anything but mixed emotions about it. Will the Lord cry on that day? I long to see my Lord and I long to see His righteous kingdom, but I'd be content to skip the nastiness in between, however that's my flesh talking. My flesh doesn't like the hard life or the hard way. It doesn't like suffering hunger or thirst, pain, or any discomfort, but I can imagine all these things, and what I can't imagine is eternal life without them (though it seems like a really good idea.)”

We share the same age and the same thoughts. No one, unless they’re masochistic, looks forward to the pain and suffering that we might endure but this is our calling as believers, to “take up His cross and follow Him.” But with paying that great price also comes a great reward which is the thought we must hold on to.

Your words: “Now, this has been a long and rambling response, which probably has more to do with the disappointments of the day than any desire of theological accuracy, but I believe that I've said more than any sane man should about things which aren't explicitly described in scripture, so I'll take my leave, respect you all to your opinions, and stand upon what scripture says, rather than upon what it doesn't say as this seems more sound than the latter.”

I again agree with your thoughts and there is nothing wrong with rambling every now and then. You’re not alone in sometimes using boards such as this for a therapeutic release of emotions. At least for me, this is part of the sharing as brothers in Christ are to do, so we can lift and edify each other as Christ desires. Standing on what scripture says is the best that any of us can do.

 

[boldncourageous]

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Hey Stuttgart, the Great Tribulation comes after the abomination is set up in the Holy Place...

Guess what Stuttgart - that hasn't happened since Daniel penned it... but it will.

So the Great Tribulation, which will nearly wipe out the Elect - hasn't happened - - - yet. But it will as well.

Where do you get that the "abomination is set up in the Holy Place...?"
The abomination never 'sets up" in the holy place.
The abomination decimates the holy place... as in destroys it

If it were not pre-trib then Christ comes not as a thief
If it were not pre-trib then it does not come as in the times of Noah
If it were not pre-trib then it does not come as in the times of Lot
If it were not pre-trib then there is no use being ready for it
If it were not pre-trib then it does not come as in times we think not
If it were not pre-trib then two will not be in the field and the one taken
If it were not pre-trib then two will not be at the wheel grinding and the one taken
If it were not pre-trib then it does not come as in the times of Noah

I heard John MacArthur say that if the rapture were not pre-trib then it would be a very quick trip up then to come back and reign with Christ.

Interesting that from the pre-trib perspective only that perspective can be seen. It is difficult to remove the lenses and see the obvious.

To avoid confusion, I will state that I come from a post-trib perspective

Example: Jesus "comes as a thief..." If the event of the rapture and the second coming are the same, then,of course, there is no reason to question the element of surpriese of "like a thief..' for it is one event and not two. IF there where a separtation of the events, the element of surprise must fall upon the first event ALWAYS. The first event would indeed declare the second, and the "goodman" of the house would know at what hour to keep watch... Matt. 24:42,43. Yet 2 Peter 3:10 shows that the element "like a thief..." falls on the second coming as well as Rev. 16:15 where Jesus declares that He is coming "like a thief." Often pretribber will attempt to refute 2 Peter 3:10 as saying the "like a thief.." part is the rapture and the rest of the verse is the second coming, and this can happen because a "day is like a thousand years." Suggesting that a day is rather like a 7 year tribulation. Thus putting words in God's mouth stating that instead it being like 1000 years, it's only seven.

The time of Noah or Lot argument is an absurd idea. That would suggest that the wickedness of the world would decrease during the tribulation period.

"be ready for it" The Word states "watch" and keep your garments, less you be ashamed at His coming. Here again this argument is viewed through the pretrib lenses. It becomes an absurd argument rather quickly. The readiness that should be considered is having the oil in your lamp to go the distance. Surely, the bridegroom would be coming sooner, we didn't think we would have to go through the tribulation all the way to the end. We didn't sign up for that. We only brough enough oil to make it to the begining of the tribulation. The only issue tha the "stony" soil had in the parable of the sower, was that they didn't have the mindset that we are assigned to tribulation and persecution. When it comes, the "immediately stumbel." Mark 4:18. Consider the word "immediately," obviously it's not something that is experienced everyday, but comes suddenly when you least expect it. You don't have time to change your mindset. It's already set. One day it comes, and the immediate, hard choice is made. Did you deny Him before men. If you did, He will deny you before His Father in heaven.

"when we think not" The pretrib (and others) have packaged up the tribulation into a pretty little 7 year time frame. That all comes from one verse, Daniel 9:27.
Daniel's 70th week notes that the daily sacrifices and offerings ends in the middle of the week. The sacrifices and offerings ended in 70 AD. It marks the middle of the seven year (one week) war called the Roman-Jewish war or Jewish Rebellion. Titus made a covenant with the Roman Empire (with many) to squelch the Jewish uprising in 66 AD. The war ended in 73 AD with the mass suicide of the last stand of Masada. Titus decimated Jerusalem and the temple in the middle of that week, totally fulfilling Daniel 9:27. The 7 year tribulation timeperiod is conjured from this SINGULAR verse that has obvious fulfillment of historical prophesy. Without being able to pinpoint a begining of the tribulation, you cannot pinpoint an ending. The tribulation period is more accurately described as times worsing like a frog in a pot set to boil. Obviously, there is no grounds to consider that it cannot be at the end, without a pretty little timeline to pinpoint events along the way. That timeline is conjured and doesn't exist. None of the events give indication of relation to timing before or after.

"in the field, one taken, one not" I love the accusation of the post-trib u-turn. I find that humorous. Here is how it really works: We meet Him in the clouds (Matt. 24:29-31), in the air (1 Thess. 4:13-18), at the last trumpet (1 Cor. 15:51,52) to be now, 'forever with the Lord.' At that time the DEAD get glorified bodies, but the RAPTURED are merely "changed" (1 Cor. 15:52) The raptured put on a form of immortality (Is. 65:20) so that someone who dies (during the 1000 years) at 100 year of age would be considered a child. Here is the important part...pay attention. The raptured DO NOT get glorified bodies (1 Cor. 15:52) therefore they are NOT on their way to heaven, but to the clouds where they rendezvous with Jesus who is on His way to the Mount of Olives... NOT HEAVEN. He rules and reigns on Earth for 1000 years. Without a glorified body, you can't go to heaven. Only the dead get them!

Your last two arguments are repeats of the previous.

Jesus does not lie! He states that He will come "as a theif..." for the second coming, 2 Peter 3:10, Rev. 16:15. If a rapture were to happen 7 years prior, He would be lying in the nature in which He decared how He would come, "like a thief..." The first event would announce the second. Jesus doesn't lie.... hint, hint.

 

[Trekson]

Hi Bold, Your words: "The raptured DO NOT get glorified bodies (1 Cor. 15:52)"

Of course we get glorified bodies, vss. 53, 54, incorruptible and immortal bodies! Those of your quote: "The raptured put on a form of immortality (Is. 65:20) so that someone who dies (during the 1000 years) at 100 year of age would be considered a child." will be those living who enter the millennial age as sheep from the sheep and goat judgment of Matt. 25.

 

[boldncourageous]

Hi Bold, Your words: "The raptured DO NOT get glorified bodies (1 Cor. 15:52)"

Of course we get glorified bodies, vss. 53, 54, incorruptible and immortal bodies! Those of your quote: "The raptured put on a form of immortality (Is. 65:20) so that someone who dies (during the 1000 years) at 100 year of age would be considered a child." will be those living who enter the millennial age as sheep from the sheep and goat judgment of Matt. 25.

[52] In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.
[53] For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.
[54] So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory.

Paul makes a distinction between the dead, and the living on what type of bodies are given. They are not the same. Your comment confuses the two. The distinction of immortality for the Raptured is founded in a word that refers to longevity of life. Methuselah was only shy 31 years of being 1000 yrs old. The millennium is only 1000 years long. Being given bodies that would last a millennium fits the definition of immortality. At no time does the Scripture state that the Raptured are given glorified or incorruptible bodies, just the dead are given these. Please note the distinction. Your Sheep and goats comment doesn't make sense, please elaborate.

 

[Trekson]

Hi Bold, Your Verses and following quote: "51 Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed, ( I believe this verse says that we are all going to under go the SAME change) 52] In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible,( We know from Thess. that the dead in Christ are raised FIRST so they are just the "first" to change) and we shall be changed. ( Next' we are changed, IN THE SAME WAY) [53] For this ( The word "this" is in the present tense so we know he is still speaking of the "we" from the previous verse) corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality. ( So, we, the living, are putting on the SAME in corruptibleness of the dead and their SAME immortality)
[54] So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory." ( Paul is affirming that in BOTH CASES, we fulfill the latter passage: "Death is swallowed up in victory." So if we have victory over death, it is impossible for us to "die" in the millennial age.

"Paul makes a distinction between the dead, and the living on what type of bodies are given. They are not the same. Your comment confuses the two. The distinction of immortality for the Raptured is founded in a word that refers to longevity of life. Methuselah was only shy 31 years of being 1000 yrs old. The millennium is only 1000 years long. Being given bodies that would last a millennium fits the definition of immortality. At no time does the Scripture state that the Raptured are given glorified or incorruptible bodies, just the dead are given these. Please note the distinction."

As you can see, I showed you how I view vss. 52-54, I added vs. 51 for clarification.

"Your Sheep and goats comment doesn't make sense, please elaborate"

Please ignore that for now. God is in the process of rewriting in my heart and mind everything "I thought I knew" about the latter days because I asked for a true understanding, not my own understanding and He is, a single piece at a time, answering my prayer, but in all honesty, I am finding it quite frustrating, as He is showing me that much of what I thought "I knew", hasn't been quite as "right" as I thought.