How can the rapture be anything but pre-trib???

[Marcus O'Reillius]

I think 1st Thessalonians 3:13 is an observer-true picture of one of the Elect seeing Jesus and Angels coming on the clouds with all the resurrected souls who heard and answered that Last Trumpet call from Paradise and then! being lifted up, (the Rapture) they along with the Dead in Christ are delivered to (the barn of) Heaven as the Great Multitude.

 

[michaelvpardo]

Isn't that nice: you believe in the Rapture, the gathering up of all those who are still alive and remain after the Great Tribulation decimates the Elect.

Why is it that Jesus said we would be handed over for persecution?
Why is it that Jesus said we would have Great Tribulation?
Why does Jesus say the Elect will be saved just before they are wiped out?
Why is it that after a thousand years of worship and service to the living God do all the people of the earth march against God's camp at Jerusalem?

Because of our pride.

It is a pride issue that has us marching victorious over the arrayed armies of the earth. Ha! As if God needs billions of believers to take on hundreds of millions. It is because of pride that we finally find only Jesus can save us - that we ourselves are unable to do annoying for our Salvation. It is because of pride that the Millennium people are allowed to rebel - that their servitude is not enough to save them.

We are not the powerful. And getting "right-sized" with God is an important part of why we are handed over, and why we must suffer, even to death, and not see our ultimate victory: only faith in our Salvation by Jesus alone can save us. And that is humility: not prideful. And in weakness, our total inability to save ourselves or even have a hand in it: His Power is made perfect.

Last Day adherents also have some strange notion that the destruction of the anti-Christ happens all at once when Jesus first reappears... Nothing could be further from Scripture. The end is not simple, but is it right and just, and that is a thing of beauty.

Thank you. Beautifully written, and it would seem quite true. I've heard a few Pastors say that the sweetest words in the scripture are "but God" and those two words certainly are among the most satisfying to my soul.
The slain of the earth started with righteous Abel and the witness of God is complete with the beheading, death, resurrection and departure of the last two witnesses. What's left but judgment? And who has God promised to be witnesses of the judgment of the wicked?
The Lord knows how to preserve His own and will we be His judge if He whisks us away before things get really bad? Or will we judge our Lord if He leaves us here to see what people must suffer, for things and actions that we ourselves have been forgiven of? What does righteousness demand?
I don't have a lot of answers, but scripture does.
In the end our trust in Him is a blessing that we receive from Him and return to Him in praise. Amen.

Hi Michael, Your words: "Pardon me if I'm reading more into your comments than is really there, but I agree with those here who believe that Rapture doctrine is a destructive heresy and false gospel."

How do you think believing in a rapture changes anything as you presented it? It seems to me, just the duration is different. Up and down is really quite silly and unnecessary. There is no scriptural evidence that the holy ones that arrive with Him are the church. They could easily be angels as well because the descriptive language is used for both. There are things to be accomplished before His return that either a) the church isn't destined for or B) maybe He would like to have known before hand who will rule what, where and when. All that will occur at the Bema Seat judgment and that is what pre-wrath believes will be occurring between the rapture and phase two of his return. There is absolutely nothing heretical or false about the fact that rapture simply equals the harpazo. Keep all the baggage out that accompanies that word and you'll see it's quite simple.

Lets see. To clarify our statements, a heresy is defined as opinion or doctrine that is opposed to orthodox or common views. Within the evangelical church "rapture doctrine" might be considered orthodox or common, but does it add to the gospel? If it does, then is it what Paul would call "another gospel" and anathema at Christ's return?
If the doctrine is a misappropriation of scripture and a cleverly fabricated fantasy that appeals to our carnal nature, what damage does it do to those who find themselves living through the trials to come upon the earth?
If things get really bad, and in trials they commonly do, will we assume that God has abandoned us in spite of the Word that He has given to us?
Many professing Christians already doubt much of what the scripture says and so they doubt God. This doubt started with what we find in Genesis chapter 3 and nothing much has changed.

 

[Trekson]

Hi Michael, Your words: "If things get really bad, and in trials they commonly do, will we assume that God has abandoned us in spite of the Word that He has given to us?"

I dislike repeating myself. If you had read any of my comments before making this statement you would know that a belief in a rapture does not equal escapism. Rapture = harpazo. The "timing" of the rapture is a different theology than just the belief in a simple prophesied event. Prewrath believes the church will be here through the great trib and the majority of the church will be martyred. Rapture DOES NOT equal a pre-trib timing! Everybody's preconceived "ideas" of what the rapture entails is what brings multiple pieces of baggage to a simple scriptural concept.

 

[sojourner4Christ]

...a belief in a rapture does not equal escapism. Rapture = harpazo. The "timing" of the rapture is a different theology than just the belief in a simple prophesied event.

While “rapture” theory, regardless of pre-trib, mid-trib, or whatever “timing,” is easily debunked as unscriptural, it is most dangerous when deceivers spin it by attaching it to scriptural truth e.g. the resurrection of believers. Rat bait is comprised of 99.9% good food; it’s the 0.1% poison that kills. The “rapture = harpazo” bugaboo is that 0.1% poison.

Rapture DOES NOT equal a pre-trib timing! Everybody's preconceived "ideas" of what the rapture entails is what brings multiple pieces of baggage to a simple scriptural concept.

Exactly. So why is the phony word “rapture” still being posted here? Why continue to stroke “everybody’s preconceived ideas” with it? Tell us how any truth seeker can be edified by continuing to equate an unscriptural theory with scriptural truth.

Prewrath believes the church will be here through the great trib and the majority of the church will be martyred.

If you want to talk about timing, then fine, let’s talk timing. I suggested a pre-wrath discussion back at post #111. Let’s stop sabotaging the thread.
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[Marcus O'Reillius]

The Rapture is not easily debunked, but many misconstrue it, and many more dismiss it.

The Rapture is not a heresy; it is plainly taught albeit only in Paul's earliest letters. It is confusing, and why I think Paul, who was on fire eschatologically in his very first letters (Thessalonians); gradually steers away from this very meaty subject with his "young-in-Christ" followers who needed more basic training and could only take milk.

The Rapture is not un-Scriptural. It is IN Scripture. It is also not heresy; the common heresy the New Testament authors fought was Gnosticism. They did not argue against a Rapture of believers at Christ's second coming.

 

[Trekson]

Hi S4C, Your words: "Tell us how any truth seeker can be edified by continuing to equate an unscriptural theory with scriptural truth."

Because it is not an "unscriptural" theory. Perhaps God hasn't revealed the reality of it to you because you're just not ready to receive it. You've described what you think is a "meet and greet" scenario. How about a little scriptural verification for that concept.

Your words: "I suggested a pre-wrath discussion back at post #111. Let’s stop sabotaging the thread."

I agree. I have pre-wrath posts all over this board. Pick one and go with it or start your own. If you do post something, I may not get to it for a week or so as we're leaving on vacation tomorrow and I don't have a laptop.

 

[Marcus O'Reillius]

(The) “rapture” theory is unscriptural,

Actually, it is not a "theory," nor, when it is found in so many places in the Bible's Scripture, is it un-Scriptural.

Another list of references which may be helpful to your study are to look at the "rapture" verbs. Rapture comes to us from the Latin translation of the Greek gathering, rapio. So while you can't find "rapture" in the Bible, you can find "gathering" often and in context with the end-times return of Christ and the Church.

Rapture verbs—the general English meanings of the Greek words used:

• MT 24:31 to come upon, come after
• MT 24:40 to take over, to receive, to inherit
• MK 13:27 to come upon, come after
• MK 16:19 to carry up
• LK 9:51 a taking up: ascension
• LK 17:34-35 to take over, to receive, to inherit
• LK 24:51 to take up, raise
• JN 14:3 to take over, to receive, to inherit
• AC 1:9-11 to lift up
• 1CO 15:51-54 to change
• 2CO 4:14 to waken, to raise up
• 2CO 12:2-4 to seize, to catch up, to snatch away
• 1TH 4:16-17 to seize, to catch up, to snatch away
• 2TI 2:18 (resurrection) a standing up, a raising up, rising
• 1TI 3:16 to take up, raise
• HEB 11:5 to transfer, change
• REV 12:5 to seize, to catch up, to snatch away

It is interesting to note the similarity between receiving Christ as also to be taken up with the idea of inheritance.
Look at the Man in Linen's words (Jesus) to Daniel:

DA 12:13 "As for you, go your way till the end. You will rest, and then at the end of the days you will rise to receive your allotted inheritance."

And speaking of the Rapture, Paul says:

1Th 4:17 Then we who are alive and remain will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air, and so we shall always be with the Lord. 18 Therefore comfort one another with these words.

That's not a theory, a heresy, or un-Scriptural. To those who would seek to destroy the comfort some take in looking forward to their rescue from this world, well, what you're demanding by your incessant ridicule is, by it's very nature, quite opposite of what Paul is saying here and thus, itself, remains the solely un-Scriptural idea presented on this board.

(Now the opposing side will argue incessantly that 1Th 4:17 doesn't mean what it says in plain English.)

 

[sojourner4Christ]

Actually, it is not a "theory," nor, when it is found in so many places in the Bible's Scripture,

Then were is it?

Another list of references which may be helpful to your study are to look at the "rapture" verbs. Rapture comes to us from the Latin translation of the Greek gathering, rapio.

Another man, another book, "another list of references," another gospel... And you sourced the corrupt Catholic Latin Vulgate. But still no "rapture." Keep looking.

So while you can't find "rapture" in the Bible, you can find "gathering" often and in context with the end-times return of Christ and the Church.

You wanna talk "gathering"? Fine, then talk it, and not the unclean thing.

Rapture verbs—the general English meanings of the Greek words used:

• [etc. etc. etc.]

It is interesting to note the similarity...

[etc. etc. etc.]

"Interesting," indeed, to note all the nonsequiturs.

And speaking of the Rapture, Paul says:

Paul never spoke such a word. Rather, "rapture" is not found anywhere in scripture.

That's not a theory, a heresy, or un-Scriptural. To those who would seek to destroy the comfort some take in looking forward to their rescue from this world, well, what you're demanding by your incessant ridicule is, by it's very nature, quite opposite of what Paul is saying here and thus, itself, remains the solely un-Scriptural idea presented on this board.

You are attempting to insinuate a basis for future false doctrines through a failure to recognize that you are playing not with truth, but with leaven. "Rapture" is unscriptural rubbish and no discerning student of scripture would rightly have anything to do with it. The error is all yours.

(Now the opposing side will argue incessantly that 1Th 4:17 doesn't mean what it says in plain English.)

Yet another attempt at a pre-emptive dismissal. This guy wants so badly to find his word "rapture" that he's 'almost pregnant' with it. Alas, he cannot find it.

My response to the next poster will be in red text.

i S4C, Your words: "Tell us how any truth seeker can be edified by continuing to equate an unscriptural theory with scriptural truth."

Because it is not an "unscriptural" theory. Again, the unscriptural nature of what you are propagating has been scripturally documented. The corrupt Catholic Latin Vulgate is the source of today's word "rapture." Perhaps you should re-read post #94 of this thread (or post #30 in another thread). “Perhaps God hasn't revealed the reality of it to you because you're just not ready to receive it.” You've described what you think is a "meet and greet" scenario. How about a little scriptural verification for that concept. Yet again, "meet" is a scriptural word, and its definition and use have already been scripturally documented. Perhaps you should scroll back up to the top of this very page and re-read post #151.

Your words: "I suggested a pre-wrath discussion back at post #111. Let’s stop sabotaging the thread."

I agree. I have pre-wrath posts all over this board. Pick one and go with it or start your own. If you do post something, I may not get to it for a week or so as we're leaving on vacation tomorrow and I don't have a laptop.

So the question I have implicitly yet intentionally raised is, why is there the apparent inability to see the documented truth of your obviously unscriptural error? Why the insistent blending of your unscriptural “rapture” with your “pre-wrath posts all over this board”? Answer: One (or both) of those positions (i.e. “rapture” and “pre-wrath”) is scripturally indefensible. And to give ground on one would damage both.

False doctrines are strongholds of the enemy.

We've scripturally exposed the errors and falseshoods inherent in the use of unscriptural terms such as "rapture." Perhaps it's time to scripturally expose similar problems with "pre-wrath" doctrine.
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[Marcus O'Reillius]

So the question I have implicitly yet intentionally raised is, why is there the apparent inability to see the documented truth of your obviously unscriptural error? Why the insistent blending of your unscriptural “rapture” with your “pre-wrath posts all over this board”? Answer: One (or both) of those positions (i.e. “rapture” and “pre-wrath”) is scripturally indefensible. And to give ground on one would damage both.

False doctrines are strongholds of the enemy.

We've scripturally exposed the errors and falseshoods inherent in the use of unscriptural terms such as "rapture." Perhaps it's time to scripturally expose similar problems with "pre-wrath" doctrine.

And you are, as you say in your incessant, aggressive, and hostile posts, "scriptureless."

You, who accuse me of false doctrine and following the enemy, have become an enemy to me. You are not acting as a brother, acting in love, but rather are acting in a most un-Christian manner and you then typify the accusations of liberal, anti-Christians, in sounding more like a jihadist than a fellow worshiper in Christ discussing the Bible openly and honestly.

 

[sojourner4Christ]

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You’re a big boy now. You would say you are born again. Iron sharpens iron, and the man of God seeks admonition and reproof to be throughly furnished unto good works. I’ve cited dozens of scriptures to show you the error in mixing what is holy with what is profane. But you will have none of it.

You, who accuse me of false doctrine...

Forget me. The word of God stands in opposition to the "rapture" drivel.

You are not acting as a brother, acting in love, but rather are acting in a most un-Christian manner...

It takes LOVE to stand for the truth. I personally don’t like sounding the alarm. Yet you’re giving a false witness to 2000 others viewing this thread, many of whom remain ensnared in a false doctrinal system -- regardless your “good intentions” (I presume).

...sounding more like a jihadist than a fellow worshiper in Christ discussing the Bible openly and honestly.

You will paint the word picture you feel you need. Meanwhile, love is never a substitute for the truth.
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[Trekson]

Hi S4C, From post 151: "1 Thes. 4:17 - "Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord."

Regarding your meet and greet scenario. This is the only verse that has a valid relationship to the discussion and nothing in it implies an immediate return. Just because scriptures share the usage of a particular word, it has to be within the context of what we are speaking. Your other "meet" verse were out of context to the discussion at hand.

Your words: "The corrupt Catholic Latin Vulgate is the source of today's word "rapture".

Latin is Latin, the source doesn't matter unless you are suggesting that the translators just "made up" a word for the equivalent of harpazo. Somehow, I don't believe that is the case.

Your words: "We've scripturally exposed the errors and falseshoods inherent in the use of unscriptural terms such as "rapture".

The problem is, you have not. You may have posted some scriptures but they were either irrelevant or out of context to the discussion at hand. Yes, I agree the word "rapture" isn't in scripture. So what, it's simply the modern day equivalent concept to being "caught up". There are no scriptures refuting it, just a guy trying to stubbornly cling onto an errant belief regarding the proper exegesis of scripture. Unless you talk in "KJV ye olde king's english" in every area of your life, you're constantly using "unscriptural" terms to describe everything around us. Our "real life" isn't separate from our christian life, so you really don't have a "leg to stand on" regarding the usage of the word "rapture".

 

[sojourner4Christ]

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Regarding your meet and greet scenario. This is the only verse that has a valid relationship to the discussion and nothing in it implies an immediate return. Just because scriptures share the usage of a particular word, it has to be within the context of what we are speaking. Your other "meet" verse were out of context to the discussion at hand.

[and]

You may have posted some scriptures but they were either irrelevant or out of context to the discussion at hand.

Again, unlike my posts, you’ve offered no scriptures to support your rhetoric.

And again, concerning your request for scriptural details, I had to “remind” you to read something that had already been supplied! -- "selective hearing" at its most obvious.

Latin is Latin, the source doesn't matter unless you are suggesting that the translators just "made up" a word for the equivalent of harpazo. Somehow, I don't believe that is the case.

Rather, you yourself have just slyly “suggested” that wicked pretext. Latin, like your wanna-be argument, is dead. Once again, the word “rapture” is a Catholic invention, spun from their corrupted Latin Vulgate. You simply continue to pick the pretexts you need.

Yes, I agree the word "rapture" isn't in scripture. So what,

Well, well, the supposed truth lover comes (half-) clean.

["rapture"] is simply the modern day equivalent concept to being "caught up".

‘...of course, to walk hand-in-hand with your “modern day equivalent concept" of the word of God. One good perversion begets another!’

There are no scriptures refuting it.

There are no scriptures teaching it because it’s not scripture. So why are you still attempting to teach the rubbish?

...just a guy trying to stubbornly cling onto an errant belief regarding the proper exegesis of scripture.

lol You haven’t given any of the 2000 viewing this now ANY scripturally valid “exegesis.” To do that, you’d need to find “rapture” in scripture and, of course, as you've just admitted, it’s not there. End of story.

Unless you talk in "KJV ye olde king's english" in every area of your life, you're constantly using "unscriptural" terms to describe everything around us.

Unlike you, I am not attempting to support a doctrine not taught anywhere in scripture -- neither am I using that false theology to support dubious spin-offs of it in other threads.

Our "real life" isn't separate from our christian life

Indeed, it should not be. So why would you continue to TALK the same trash to others in "our real life" as you have posted in these forums re: the scripturally non-existent “rapture"?

...so you really don't have a "leg to stand on" regarding the usage of the word "rapture".

Indeed, you do not!
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[Trekson]

S4C, "To do that, you’d need to find “rapture” in scripture and, of course, as you've just admitted, it’s not there. End of story."

As I've said before, the word "Trinity" isn't in scripture either but I'm certainly not going to deny that truth just because the word isn't used. Grow up! You're the only one here making a fool of yourself with your ridiculous refusal to accept a much referenced, scriptured and well documented concept. I'm not going to repeat myself. You want the scriptural proof, look for some of my other articles from a couple of years ago. They are all backed up with scripture. Do your own homework, when you find one with lots of scripture you want to discuss, repost and have at it!

 

[sojourner4Christ]

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As I've said before, the word "Trinity" isn't in scripture either but I'm certainly not going to deny that truth just because the word isn't used.

Any misdirection is fair game in the deception you're "caught up" in.

You're the only one here making a fool of yourself with your ridiculous refusal to accept a much referenced, scriptured and well documented concept.

Others here have also pointed out your folly.

I'm not going to repeat myself.

But then you must; because there's no truth behind the rhetoric, 'you think that you shall be heard for your much speaking.' (Mat. 6:7)

You want the scriptural proof, look for some of my other articles from a couple of years ago. They are all backed up with scripture. Do your own homework...

No truth seeker wants your inventions (or mine). No truth seeker wants an invention of men, "backed up with scripture" or not. An invention of men is still an invention of men; however you dress her up, she's still a harlot.

Your premise ("rapture") was unscriptural then, and it's still unscriptural today. You've consistently been unable to scripturally defend your appropriation of the ungodly thing.

...when you find one with lots of scripture you want to discuss, repost and have at it!

I'm not interested in "finding one," without or "with lots of scripture." Rather, I've found the truth and I'm staying with it, the word of God.

There is only one truth, everything else is a lie. "Rapture" is one of the many lies found without. Avoid the unclean thing.

And after 2000 views, no doubt readers have a better idea what they're dealing with now re: the false doctrine of dispensationalism and its marketing vehicle, the so-called "rapture."

I will leave you two to your dissimulations for now and give the view counter a rest.
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[Trekson]

And after 2000 views

Don't think too highly of yourself. I doubt if there are ten paying any attention at all, I'm sure most of them are wondering how I could put up with this nonsense for so long.

 

[Marcus O'Reillius]

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You’re a big boy now.
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I'm a grown man. Ex-fighter pilot, Captain, father, Sensei, etc. You've still got some growing up to do.

You can't cite Scripture saying there is no Rapture and not address the Scripture that says there is and then claim there is no Scripture to back the idea of being caught up into the clouds and not dying first.

Here's your homework boy.

"Rapture" comes to us from the Latin translation of the Greek "gathering," rapio. So while you can't find "rapture" in the Bible, you can find "gathering" often and in context with the end-times return of Christ and the Church.

Rapture verbs—the general English meanings of the Greek words used:

• MT 24:31 to come upon, come after
• MT 24:40 to take over, to receive, to inherit
• MK 13:27 to come upon, come after
• MK 16:19 to carry up
• LK 9:51 a taking up: ascension
• LK 17:34-35 to take over, to receive, to inherit
• LK 24:51 to take up, raise
• JN 14:3 to take over, to receive, to inherit
• AC 1:9-11 to lift up
• 1CO 15:51-54 to change
• 2CO 4:14 to waken, to raise up
• 2CO 12:2-4 to seize, to catch up, to snatch away
• 1TH 4:16-17 to seize, to catch up, to snatch away
• 2TI 2:18 (resurrection) a standing up, a raising up, rising
• 1TI 3:16 to take up, raise
• HEB 11:5 to transfer, change
• REV 12:5 to seize, to catch up, to snatch away

 

[n2thelight]

Can any rapturist show me one ,just one verse where Christ returns before the tribulation .....


@ Marcus

You say rature can mean gathering...Simple question,when does Paul say we gather to Christ?

 

[Trekson]

Hi N2, Neither Marcus nor I believe we will be "gathered" before the great trib. We believe our "gathering" will end the great trib, as the great trib is on the church, not the world in general. They face the wraths of Christ and God, to which the church is not appointed to. There is no such thing as a "tribulation" period lasting seven yrs. There is just, imo, the 70th week of Daniel which has several aspects to it.

 

[Marcus O'Reillius]

Marcus

You say rature can mean gathering...Simple question,when does Paul say we gather to Christ?

In 2Th 2:1-8, it comes after the "one" (whom Paul had taught as a named entity, but of whom we remain uncertain) is 'removed from the midst,' and the anti-Christ is revealed. Then the Day of Christ will come and we (subsequently) will be gathered up.

That is the basic sequence of events in the first four verses when you pivot the given verses around the word "until" to put them in chronological order. I can extrapolate this basic sequence of events to include all eight verses later when I'm at home.

Nothing Paul says contradicts Jesus' Olivet Discourse or John's account in the book of Revelation.

 

[n2thelight]

Sojo

This really exemplifies the root of the problem: people do not know what a Jew is, who Israel is, what the remnant is; they no longer understand what their own standing is in Christ.


You are sooooooo on the money!!!!!!!!