How can the rapture be anything but pre-trib???

[Trekson]

Hi RJP, Your words: "Millenialism, which is the foundation of rapturism, has its own digressions. For most of the history of Christendom the notion of pre-millenialism held a primary place in eschatology. Simply stated, the world would achieve utopian status prior to the second coming."

As far as I know that has never been the position of pre-millennialism. Amil and post-mil yes, but pre-mil has always been that Christ needs to come before the millennium to begin. That is what the prefix "pre" means!

Your words: "But it goes further than that. I've done my homework and it is also my opinion that those who hold to the rapture myth do so out of a sense of desperation and no desire whatsoever to pursue the truth."

Obviously, a little more "homework" is in order. Pre-wrath rapturism is not an 'escapist" doctrine. We believe we will be here for the great trib and that the majority of believers will be martyred during that time period so there is absolutely no "sense of desperation". The bible teaches that "we are not appointed to wrath" so we believe the rapture will occur after the great trib but before the wrath of God. How is that unscriptural?

Hi S4C, Listen, words in and of themselves are neither good, nor evil, they are just words. Even words like: lie, steal, sin or evil aren't good or bad, they're just words. When someone asks you, What kind of a car do you drive? Do you answer (for ex.) a 2010 Buick Century or do you say "I have a red chariot drawn by 308 horses? just so you won't use unscriptural terms. Yes, this is just that silly. If I were to play your game, I could just as easily say your denial of this spiritual concept called the rapture is as bad as what you're trying to say my belief in the rapture is and point all those scriptures back at you.

Do you know what makes anything good or evil? It's simple really. Heb. 4:12 - "For the word of God is quick, and powerful, and sharper than any twoedged sword, piercing even to the dividing asunder of soul and spirit, and of the joints and marrow, and is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart."

I know that God knows that my intentions are pure when discussing this topic, so I have no fear of judgment concerning this or any other topic. If there was a topic in which I erred in my conversation, then God also knows it is based on what I believe the scriptures to be saying, not on some evil, dark scheme to lead my fellow believers astray.

So, lighten up already! There is no devilish scheme involved here. Words are just words, it's one's intentions on why they say what they say. My reason is simply that I believe what I'm saying based on the scriptures I have provided in past conversations.

 

[[email protected]]

Hi RJP, Your words: "People believe it and for no other reason or justification than that people believe it. The idea is widely accepted because so many accept the idea. It is circular logic and has no real basis in scripture or logic or truth."

If you're talking about a "pre-trib" rapture, I agree. But if you're talking about the "rapture" as common usage for be "caught up" then I disagree. People believe it because the concept is in the bible, it's a promise Christ made and it is quite logical when one can get out of their denial and look at prophecy as a whole and not in the restricted confines of one's personal eschatology.

I'm writing about the bogus terminology invented by an American con man called John Nelson Darby. HE called it the rapture - NOT the Bible.

Instead of constantly striving to justify a lie, why does NO ONE bother to do their homework? Research the man, the history and the progression of the marketing of the concept all the way through the end of the 19th century, the entire 20th century and now this one. The second coming was never referred to as the rapture, either in church tradition or in scripture. The rapture carries literary baggage the connotation of which is a Star Trek evacuation in the midst of trouble. That's all it is. Try to refine it, justify it or re-engineer it and you end up in the same monotonous quagmire that people have been stuck in since that con man vomited it onto the American public so long ago. Bottom line is that the 2nd advent of Christ is promised, but it is never referred to as the rapture. The word simply doesn't exist apart from the circus side show attitude of American religiosity.

The retort is always scripture, but no one bothers to acknowledge that the devil also uses scripture - as did Mr. Darby. Those who earnestly claim to be followers of the truth adamantly refuse to study history and discover Mr. Darby was a con man and his whole invention is rubbish. No one really seeks the truth. They cover themselves with scripture like empty slogans to justify their fantasy and support their cowardice that trouble will not find its way to their door.

The ironic thing is that discovery of this falsehood will not shake anyone's faith at all .... unless of course that's all their faith is based on.

The whole subject is disgusting in the extreme and a shame upon anyone who claims they seek truth.......because they don't if they buy that madness.

and that's just me, hollering from the choir loft...

 

[Trekson]

Hi RJP, Do I believe in Darby's teaching of the rapture? No I don't. I really don't understand people's toxic reaction to a simple word. I would agree that Darby popularized the use of the word "rapture", but he didn't invent it. The concept of what the word "rapture" implies, which is simply the movement of a living christian from point A to point B using supernatural or spiritual means is as old as the NT itself. The "baggage" that people associate with that word is often confused with the word itself. Rapture in and of itself has no baggage. The baggage comes in the popularized pre-trib "timing" of it.

Tertullian used the phrase "instantaneous death", the bible uses "caught up", some others have used "translation" all are equal to what the word rapture means. I don't know if it's true or not but one source says the word "rapture" was used in the Latin Vulgate as early as 400 AD.

Your words: "The word simply doesn't exist apart from the circus side show attitude of American religiosity."

I would suggest a dictionary as the word "rapture" has indeed been around for a very long time and it's meaning as given in any dictionary is not far from what most believers will be feeling when it occurs.

I do consider myself a seeker of truth and that is the truth as I see it in scripture. Maybe you should inquire of yourself, why you don't?

 

[sojourner4Christ]

Why pull out some strange word from a dead or foreign language that has no original connection with the scriptures? The only reason is to defend a doctrine that is not expressly taught anywhere in scripture.

No one really seeks the truth. They cover themselves with scripture like empty slogans to justify their fantasy and support their cowardice that trouble will not find its way to their door.

You’re right; the proof is all around us. It’s amazing at all the self-justification posts in forums such as this. People say “scripture is silent on higher education for our children,” as they continue to carry out their will and not God’s; people say “it’s okay to be in debt because I want to please myself and my children and give them a future;” people say “horror movies are ok to watch because it has a good ending;” and people use the unscriptural word ‘rapture,’ which term is an integral part of a false doctrine, because “it doesn’t mean that to me.”

Recently, a local "Christian" friend was telling me how cleverly his kids will be dressing up for Halloween. I told him this holiday was of Satanic origin, and should not be observed by believers. He just smiled and said it doesn't mean that to me.

Another time, a Christian acquaintance defended taking his entire family to see the new Harry Potter film. Blithely brushing aside my concerns about Christians embracing the fictional occult phenomena, he repeated the now familiar refrain "but it's just fantasy and fun stories. Besides, it doesn't mean that to me."

Of course, the rationalizations that "believers" offer to justify their veiled rejection of most things taught in the Bible are intricately crafted and cleverly varied. All those Biblical passages about how we should live are "the law," they say, and "we're not under the law, we're under grace." I've been repeatedly told about the "freedom" we have in Christ -- another apparent justification for behaving in whatever fashion suits us.

The ironic thing is that discovery of this falsehood will not shake anyone's faith at all .... unless of course that's all their faith is based on.

When I tell all who will listen that the Sword of God is raised against "the children of disobedience" and that America is about to be harshly judged, I've learned to expect a series of defensive New Testament verses taken out of context -- usually followed by the now hollow catch phrase "it doesn't mean that to me."

Those that have added that slick sound bite to their theological vocabulary can expect to learn a new phrase they will hear on judgment day: Depart from me, ye that work iniquity, I never knew you. And when they cry out in terrified desperation, `but Lord,' "we have eaten and drunk [taken communion] in thy presence," the Scriptures bluntly inform us that he will say "I know you not whence ye are." (Luke 13:26, 25)

And as they are being sent into outer darkness prepared for the Devil and his angels, the lost will undoubtedly follow in Satan's illustrious footsteps, and resort to twisting Scripture before the Lord -- `But Lord, your Bible promised that I all I ever had to do was just say that prayer, and accept you.' Wouldn't it be “ironic,” if he would then say to those that refused to listen to his repeated warnings, It Doesn't Mean That To Me.

-- Brother James

 

[Trekson]

Hi S4C, Let me see if I got this right. If we don't believe as you do, think as you do or behave as you do then we're all going to hell. This is my understanding of your last post and I'm probably not alone. How nice that you take time out of your busy day to sit in judgment over your brothers and sisters in Christ. Have you ever heard the phrase that 'you'll attract more flies with honey"? Let me share a bible passage with you.

Matt. 7:1-5 - "Judge not, that ye be not judged. 2 For with what judgment ye judge, ye shall be judged: and with what measure ye mete, it shall be measured to you again.And why beholdest thou the mote that is in thy brother's eye, but considerest not the beam that is in thine own eye?
4 Or how wilt thou say to thy brother, Let me pull out the mote out of thine eye; and, behold, a beam is in thine own eye?
5 Thou hypocrite, first cast out the beam out of thine own eye; and then shalt thou see clearly to cast out the mote out of thy brother's eye."

It's easy in the anonymous atmosphere of the internet to sit and pass judgment upon others. Me, I'd rather give folks the benefit of the doubt as I am not God and I am unaware of the thoughts and intentions of anyone's heart. It's one thing to critique a person's understanding of scripture, it's a whole 'nother ballgame to judge and cast aspersions upon one's character because their belief is different than yours. I know from what depths Christ has lifted me up so I learned to stop judging a long time ago. Seeing as how Christ has shown me much mercy and grace that is the legacy I try to pass on. You should try it sometime!

 

[sojourner4Christ]

Hi S4C, Let me see if I got this right.

No, you still haven't.

If we don't believe as you do, think as you do or behave as you do...

"we"? How magnanimous of you. BTW, this has nothing to do with me.

It has everything to do with being holy as he is holy, that others may be set free from Satan's snare.

You're still whining like a little boy who's been told it's time to put away his favorite toy. Yes, you might have to DO something, like pray about the situation, "revise" your fav teachings, or otherwise make "corrections" to your bible studies. So what? Put down the pride and walk upright before the King.

If you didn't know any better, we wouldn't be having this discussion. But you do. You've been using your liberty (e.g. unscriptural "rapture" drivel) as a cloak of maliciousness. You've taken your witness, if any, concerning this issue, and shot it in the foot for all those who know less about this issue than we.

Attacking the messenger is standard fare, I expect that, but it won't change the truth that God says we are to judge righteous judgment. That's been done here, but you're having none of the scriptural reproof. Selah. After having brothers witness the copious scriptural imperatives to you, only a fool would continue in his opinionated error.

This is a rebuke, brother Trekson. And it's given in love. And this post is the end of it for me. Nevertheless, whenever that "rapture" dragon rears its ugly head, I will continue to scripturally expose it for the lie it is, as per my Lord.

Those who don't love the truth are sent strong delusion that they should believe a lie. "Rapture" dogma is a strong delusion. And the Lord chooses their delusions. Rather, don't give life to the dead thing.

For so is the will of God, that with well doing ye may put to silence the ignorance of foolish men:
As free, and not using your liberty for a cloke of maliciousness, but as the servants of God. 1 Peter 2:15, 16.

 

[Trekson]

Whatever, your argument isn't with me, it's what God put in His word. Take it up with Him.

 

[Marcus O'Reillius]

Being caught up to the clouds is not a lie; it's IN the Bible.

 

[sojourner4Christ]

.

Being caught up to the clouds is not a lie; it's IN the Bible.

No question about that.

 

[Trekson]

lol

 

[sojourner4Christ]

Bringing all of this back to the OP:

I heard John MacArthur say that if the rapture were not pre-trib then it would be a very quick trip up then to come back and reign with Christ.

The above is an example of why we must be very careful with the words we would use to describe prophetic events.

The first half of that statement is the presumption (i. e. a lie); the second half is actually the truth.

Let’s look at the second half first.

Yes, it will be “a very quick trip then to come back and reign with Christ.” That is EXACTLY the point of the passage! (But not for the reason John Mac states!)

Believers don’t do the hackneyed “go to heaven” thing; rather, Christ sets up his kingdom here, with us. We, being "caught up" with others, meet the Lord in the air and then return back to earth with him.

For example, if your friends fly in from another country to visit you, you might travel to your local airport to meet them when their plane lands and then escort them back to your place. If they’re VIP friends, you might have a delegation meet them at your country's main airport, and then escort them back to your place. In either case, you don’t go to your airport, meet your friends, get on your friend’s plane, and then travel back with your friends to their place of origin!

So, do we have a scriptural witness to this scenario? Yes.

...we came the next day to Puteoli: Where we found brethren, and were desired to tarry with them seven days: and so we went toward Rome. And from thence, when the brethren heard of us, they came to meet us as far as Appii forum, and The three taverns: whom when Paul saw, he thanked God, and took courage. And when we came to Rome... -- Acts 28:13-16

The brothers in Rome got word of their impending visitors, and so went out to meet them at Appii forum, and then escorted them back to Rome.

meet = same word in both Acts 28 and 1 Thes. 4.

Here are all four usages of the word meet:

Mat. 25:1 - Then shall the kingdom of heaven be likened unto ten virgins, which took their lamps, and went forth to meet the bridegroom.

Mat. 25:6 - And at midnight there was a cry made, Behold, the bridegroom cometh; go ye out to meet him.

Acts 28:15 - And from thence, when the brethren heard of us, they came to meet us as far as Appii forum, and The three taverns: whom when Paul saw, he thanked God, and took courage.

1 Thes. 4:17 - Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

All four are consistent with “meet and greet and return to base.“

So, looking now at the first half of the OP statement, we can clearly see the wicked presumption re: the fly-away-to-safety “pre-trib rapture” false doctrine. The pre-rib "rapture" theory proponents appropriate the "caught up " part of 1 Thes. 4:17 as sucker bait for their heresy -- reason enough to avoid unscriptural terms when dealing with doctrines.

Shame on John Mac. Buyer beware.

 

[Marcus O'Reillius]

Coming for His Bride

Another analogy to the Resurrection/Rapture which conforms to a sequence of events analysis is the Israel first-century wedding ritual. Like the festivals and the harvest, the joining of husband and wife has distinct eschatological overtones for Jesus’ return. While there are many different elements, and not every rendition of the steps which were taken two thousand years ago agree, enough parallels between the basic parts of the eventual marriage and Christ’s parousia exist to make a comparison.

A striking feature of the wedding analogy for the end-time Rapture of the Church comes with the emphasis Jesus gives to the subject by terming the Church as His Bride. Therefore, it should come as no surprise that the first century, Jewish wedding ritual can serve as a template for the relationship between Christ and the Church. Again, while the festivals, harvesting commandments and wedding rituals point toward a general pattern, what will be is the reality as Paul stresses in Col 2:17. However, what is interesting about a sequence-of-events analysis is how it conforms to all three.

Jewish Wedding
- Jesus - Church

(Past events)

1. Groom and Father meet to discuss terms. Isaiah 49:6; Rev 13:8
- before Christ’s first Advent
- Jesus as the ransom price

2. Marriage proposal made to the Bride Offer of Salvation by Christ
- Passover Meal with Disciples
- Christ’s declaration of the bread and wine

3. Acceptance by the Bride “Receiving” Christ by Christians
- Passover Meal with Disciples
- Disciples sharing in both

4. Groom gives a gift to the Bride
(Jesus sets a condition on this
that first He must depart) Indwelling of the Holy Spirit
- Pentecost for the Disciples

5. Groom departs Ascension of Jesus to Heaven
(Out of order with Pentecost
- exception to perfect correlation)

(Past to Present)

6. Bride retains contract, remains faithful
- ritual cleansing, the Mikveh - Patient endurance on the part of the Church
- baptism; process of forgiveness
7. Groom builds a room onto his father’s house John 14:2 - Preparing a place for us

(Future events)

8. Groom returns at night, with trumpets, lights and friends Sun/moon/star event and the sign of the Son of Man on the Day of the Lord

9. Bride dresses, meets Groom outside her father’s house Resurrection and Rapture: Gathering on the clouds

10. Return to Groom’s father’s house Delivers the Great Multitude to Heaven
(the “wheat” to the “barn”)

11. Wedding Ceremony/Festival Completion of the first Resurrection
- Cup of Anticipation from Passover Meal
- 30 day period?

12. Unveiling the Bride RO 14:12; Heb 4:13, giving an account; given crowns: Rev 11:18b - and for rewarding your servants the prophets and your saints and those who reverence your name, both small and great--
- 45 day period?

The comparison of the groom returning at night, with fanfare, should conform with the depiction of the Day of the Lord to the reader. All the elements of a typical Jewish first century procession are in place with Jesus. All Jesus’ hints gives for His Return depict a nighttime arrival. The inherent contrast of darkening the sky at noon only to have His Light pierce the darkness of night puts God’s thumbprint signature on this Day; it is miraculous. His Glory is trumpeted by Angels, and Jesus calls out the dead in Christ. The glory of God’s coming with shooting stars showering the sky as it scrolls back in a dimensional rift surpasses any noisy party with its shouts of cheer and way lit by torches. Accompanying Jesus will be Angels, and as will be shown, those who have already been resurrected from beyond the grave: the Saints.

The gathering on the clouds not only removes the remaining Elect from the Earth, but it matches the intermediary meeting place so common in ancient times. A delegation to a town would be met outside and then would be escorted into the town for negotiations. Between Heaven and Earth, the sky represents a middle place in the ancient world before the Age of Flight. It is from there, in new immortal and imperishable bodies that Christ escorts the Elect into the third Heaven of God the Father’s presence.

Returning the Elect to the Father completes the “wheat and tare” parable Jesus used to illustrate the end-times. Unlike the Post-Tribulation or Post-Millennial view where the Holy (ones) coming with Jesus descend to the earth to battle the anti-Christ; the Pre-Wrath sequence-of-events approach says the Bride does not fight for the Groom, but is delivered to the safety of Heaven. The Groom, with a special corps of men, fights for the Bride, instead of having the Church fighting the world for Him. This preserves having Christ be due all power, glory and honor as our Savior, and relegates the Church to a lesser, albeit still loved, status.

Zephaniah says those invited have been consecrated. Jesus said in Matthew 8:11 many will feast with Abraham in Heaven and He uses the wedding banquet liberally in Matthew 22. This banquet is declared as “having come” in Revelation 19:7 on the eve of Jesus going out with His Army to fight the nations at Armageddon. However, as is so common with the Greek, this verb “come” in the aorist tense, and the actual banquet cannot be said to have come in the English past tense with certainty. However, at this point, it could be said to be highly anticipated.

 

[sojourner4Christ]

The gathering on the clouds not only removes the remaining Elect from the Earth, but it matches the intermediary meeting place so common in ancient times. A delegation to a town would be met outside and then would be escorted into the town for negotiations. Between Heaven and Earth, the sky represents a middle place in the ancient world before the Age of Flight. It is from there, in new immortal and imperishable bodies that Christ escorts the Elect into the third Heaven of God the Father’s presence.

Returning the Elect to the Father completes the “wheat and tare” parable Jesus used to illustrate the end-times. Unlike the Post-Tribulation or Post-Millennial view where the Holy (ones) coming with Jesus descend to the earth to battle the anti-Christ; the Pre-Wrath sequence-of-events approach says the Bride does not fight for the Groom, but is delivered to the safety of Heaven. The Groom, with a special corps of men, fights for the Bride, instead of having the Church fighting the world for Him. This preserves having Christ be due all power, glory and honor as our Savior, and relegates the Church to a lesser, albeit still loved, status.

Scriptures, please.

 

[Marcus O'Reillius]

1. The first paragraph is from my study of the ancient culture surrounding Jesus' time. It is historically accurate and predates our view of warfare on how it would be conducted.

2. The second paragraph is my commentary, as is the first paragraph you quoted. The whole post is one 'paper' within the book I'm writing.

I cite Scripture repeatedly throughout the tome which now numbers over 400 pages.

The aspect of the first paragraph where I say Christ escorts the Elect back to the third Heaven of God the Father's presence is a conclusion I draw by the enumeration of various linear narratives into one holistic 'sequence-of-events.'

 

[michaelvpardo]

The Rapture is not a false doctrine per se. It is widely taught, but not universally accepted.

The fact that is not accepted by all does not make it a false doctrine. That is your judgment.

We will carry on in the spirit of Paul who taught this message of hope:

1Th 4:17 After that, we who are still alive and are left will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And so we will be with the Lord forever. 18 Therefore encourage one another with these words.

If this verse were about a "rapture" then it would support the doctrine, but its about the first resurrection and the glorification of our bodies, which is a doctrine that you do find in scripture in more than just one verse.
Its a little funny to me, but while reading through some of this argument, I suddenly realized that the 3rd movie of the Hobbit trilogy (originally written by a Christian fellow named Tolkien) is a symbolic analogy of Christ's return. I'd heard that Tolkien's books expressed Christian themes, but didn't typically see a connection to anything scriptural. In Tolkien's view, the wedding of the king happened after the final battle and defeat of the enemy. There's no more reason to accept Tolkien's fiction than the authors of Rapture doctrine, but have you considered that when 1 Thessalonians was written, the apostle believed that he was living in the time of the anti-Christ and was trying to encourage the brethren that the resurrection was coming soon (and the redemption of our bodies with their concurrent glorification?) There was a great famine in those days (Paul was collecting money to feed the Christian community in Jerusalem, not to promote world evangelism), and the 1st century church came under terrible persecution by Rome. Those who fell into the Caesar's hands were executed in the most horrible ways for the amusement of the general population and when Nero was Caesar, he was referred to by many (although not to his face) as "the beast."

 

[sojourner4Christ]

Amen.

 

[Marcus O'Reillius]

If this verse were about a "rapture" then it would support the doctrine,

I'm sorry for you, but we have a fundamental difference in our view. I take a literal view of being "caught up," "in the air," to meet Jesus without having died.

The First Resurrection (before the Millennium) is only for the Living (righteous) and it includes many parts, the Rapture, for those of the Elect who have not died, is one of them. The main portion of believers, who will be part of the Great Multitude, are resurrected from Paradise, or their place of rest, as Jesus told the thief on His right where they would be that day. Then there are the martyrs, and finally the firstfruits of the Harvest: the 144,000.

 

[michaelvpardo]

I'm sorry for you, but we have a fundamental difference in our view. I take a literal view of being "caught up," "in the air," to meet Jesus without having died.

The First Resurrection (before the Millennium) is only for the Living (righteous) and it includes many parts, the Rapture, for those of the Elect who have not died, is one of them. The main portion of believers, who will be part of the Great Multitude, are resurrected from Paradise, or their place of rest, as Jesus told the thief on His right where they would be that day. Then there are the martyrs, and finally the firstfruits of the Harvest: the 144,000.

I believe exactly what the scripture says, which is this, at Christ's return, His own are to come with Him. The only way for that to happen is for those who are still alive at His return to be immediately transformed into their glorified bodies, to be made perfect, to rise to greet Him in the air and then return with Him. The fact that it will be a short trip is as irrelevant as time itself after entering into eternity. The significance of being caught up is in the gathering of His people to Himself and in our transformation into sinless creatures, at hand to do His will. Why would there be a celebration prior to Christ's triumphal return? The triumph is in the final defeat of the anti-Christ and the fall of his kingdom which will be consumed at the Lord's coming? Do you understand exactly what that means? A fire goes before Him, and the antichrist will be consumed by the breath of His mouth. The first resurrection is spoken of in more than one verse of scripture and is identified as the resurrection of the just. Daniel will rise to his inheritance as will all those who have been justified by faith. The reason that Christians will be transformed and glorified is that corruption can not inherit incorruption. This doesn't speak of any inheritance in the earth, but of our inheritance in Christ which is God Himself: He is ours and we are His and will be one in Him. Hallelujah and Amen! If you want the details, they are all in scripture and I can present them, but I suspect that you've already seen them and aren't happy with the implications. Pardon me if I'm reading more into your comments than is really there, but I agree with those here who believe that Rapture doctrine is a destructive heresy and false gospel. Popularity doesn't define truth. If that were the case, every martyr who died in the name of our Lord gave their life for nothing.
I really don't understand why so many professing Christians refuse to believe that God will fulfill all of His word in His Son. Our doctrine is meant to be founded in that truth, not in our whims, our imaginations, and our fears.
Regardless of what you may believe, I consider you a brother if you've indeed placed your future in His hands, but like the rest I adjure you to restrain from teaching or preaching that which is not found in scripture, for the Lord is our judge and He returns as a Lion to render vengeance to His adversaries and a just return for every man's deeds.

 

[Marcus O'Reillius]

I believe exactly what the scripture says, which is this, at Christ's return, His own are to come with Him. The only way for that to happen is for those who are still alive at His return to be immediately transformed into their glorified bodies, to be made perfect, to rise to greet Him in the air and then return with Him.

Isn't that nice: you believe in the Rapture, the gathering up of all those who are still alive and remain after the Great Tribulation decimates the Elect.

Why is it that Jesus said we would be handed over for persecution?
Why is it that Jesus said we would have Great Tribulation?
Why does Jesus say the Elect will be saved just before they are wiped out?
Why is it that after a thousand years of worship and service to the living God do all the people of the earth march against God's camp at Jerusalem?

Because of our pride.

It is a pride issue that has us marching victorious over the arrayed armies of the earth. Ha! As if God needs billions of believers to take on hundreds of millions. It is because of pride that we finally find only Jesus can save us - that we ourselves are unable to do annoying for our Salvation. It is because of pride that the Millennium people are allowed to rebel - that their servitude is not enough to save them.

We are not the powerful. And getting "right-sized" with God is an important part of why we are handed over, and why we must suffer, even to death, and not see our ultimate victory: only faith in our Salvation by Jesus alone can save us. And that is humility: not prideful. And in weakness, our total inability to save ourselves or even have a hand in it: His Power is made perfect.

Last Day adherents also have some strange notion that the destruction of the anti-Christ happens all at once when Jesus first reappears... Nothing could be further from Scripture. The end is not simple, but is it right and just, and that is a thing of beauty.

 

[Trekson]

Hi Michael, Your words: "Pardon me if I'm reading more into your comments than is really there, but I agree with those here who believe that Rapture doctrine is a destructive heresy and false gospel."

How do you think believing in a rapture changes anything as you presented it? It seems to me, just the duration is different. Up and down is really quite silly and unnecessary. There is no scriptural evidence that the holy ones that arrive with Him are the church. They could easily be angels as well because the descriptive language is used for both. There are things to be accomplished before His return that either a) the church isn't destined for or b) maybe He would like to have known before hand who will rule what, where and when. All that will occur at the Bema Seat judgment and that is what pre-wrath believes will be occurring between the rapture and phase two of his return. There is absolutely nothing heretical or false about the fact that rapture simply equals the harpazo. Keep all the baggage out that accompanies that word and you'll see it's quite simple.