How can the rapture be anything but pre-trib???

[Theodore A. Jones]

Is it wise to quibble about when regarding the fact that few ever find the gate whereby each of you must have the faith to use or not be granted the grace to escape?

 

[shturt678s]

Shalom, Jack.


What you said is true about the word "Rapture"; however, "harpazoo" should really be rendered "snatched away," as it also does NOT imply "in an upward direction."

What you are saying is also true about the word the fallacious novelty of the alleged "Rapture," however, harpazw, viz., Matt.13:19, "snatched away" (Parable of the Sower) is not the structure of thoughts that I was referring to, ie, IThess.4:17, harpagesometha, "be snatched" meaning all will be snatched into the air descending to the renewed earth where judgment will take place, the earth and heaven will be one again...and I mean allll one time, instantaneously...good and the bad.



Also, I know that John 5:28-29 is used by many to suggest that both resurrections occur on the same day, but these verses do NOT imply that, either!
John 5:24-30
24 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.
25 Verily, verily, I say unto you, The hour is coming, and now is, when the dead shall hear the voice of the Son of God: and they that hear shall live.
26 For as the Father hath life in himself; so hath he given to the Son to have life in himself;
27 And hath given him authority to execute judgment also, because he is the Son of man.
28 Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice,
29 And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.
30 I can of mine own self do nothing: as I hear, I judge: and my judgment is just; because I seek not mine own will, but the will of the Father which hath sent me.
KJV

At NO point in this statement does Yeshua` imply WHEN they will hear His voice! He's just making the point that they ALL SHALL hear His voice at some time in the now (Yeshua`s "now" when He spoke these words) or in the future! And, later, in John 11:43-44, Elezar ("Lazarus" in Greek) DOES hear His voice! And, notice too, that this is a LITERAL, BODILY RESURRECTION! (I say that last sentence more for the sake of others who are reading along.)

Jn.5:28, 29, "...for the hour is coming, in which all in their tombs shall hear His voice and shall come out.." I don't mean to be too hard on you however let's walk this through together. Vs.25, 26 repeat and amplify v.24 regarding the subject of life, so vs. 28, 29 repeat and amplify v.27 regarding the subject of judgment.

V.25 and v.28 are parallels also because both have statement regarding the time, "the hour is coming." Yet the difference is marked, for in v.28 Jesus cannot add, "and now is." Spiritual quickening starts now and will spread over the world when redemption is once wrought, but the universal judgment comes at the end of time, correct?

Yet "is coming" means that now, with Jesus here and redemption at hand, nothing else intervenes between this present and the final judgment day. The word wra is again used in the broad sense. In what Jesus tells the Jews about this hour He states only what they themselves believed about the resurrection and the judgment (Dan.12:2, and back to Abraham, Heb.11:19).

The only point He adds is that He connects all this with Himself, the Son of God and man's son. That these Jews are most assuredly to know, they who now have the very judge before them and are seeking to destroy Him.

Note the important and decisive pantes, "all," and the attributive phrase, beyond question made such by the article, "all in their tombs," ie, all the bodily dead.

Now, about your rendering of "Sanctuary" for the Greek word "naos," that may SEEM like a good way out for you to ignore what 2 Thes. 2:4 says, but you're neglecting other passages of Scripture that use THIS SAME WORD!

Acts 17:24-28
24 God that made the world and all things therein, seeing that he is Lord of heaven and earth, dwelleth not in temples (Greek: naois, plural locative of naos) made with hands;

So you're saying in IIThess.2:4, "naos" = Temple (ieron) consisting of the four courtyards, golden altar, building structures including the central building, the naos, correct? Doing the math, doesn't compute to me???

Acts17:24, "does not dwell in handmade sanctuaries, (naois) God doesn't and never did dwell in one of the four courtyards in the Temple, however did dwell and does in the central structure, or building, in the Temple called the Sanctuary within the eiron, "Temple" complex.

25 Neither is worshipped with men's hands, as though he needed any thing, seeing he giveth to all life, and breath, and all things;

26 And hath made of one blood all nations of men for to dwell on all the face of the earth, and hath determined the times before appointed, and the bounds of their habitation;
27 That they should seek the Lord, if haply they might feel after him, and find him, though he be not far from every one of us:
28 For in him we live, and move, and have our being; as certain also of your own poets have said, For we are also his offspring.
KJV

Acts 19:21-25
21 After these things were ended, Paul purposed in the spirit, when he had passed through Macedonia and Achaia, to go to Jerusalem, saying, After I have been there, I must also see Rome.
22 So he sent into Macedonia two of them that ministered unto him, Timotheus and Erastus; but he himself stayed in Asia for a season.
23 And the same time there arose no small stir about that way.
24 For a certain man named Demetrius, a silversmith, which made silver shrines (Greek: naous, the plural accusative of naos)) for Diana, brought no small gain unto the craftsmen;

Acts19:24, "shrines" or "sanctuaries" acceptable noting again naous, and not "ieron," "temple."

25 Whom he called together with the workmen of like occupation, and said, Sirs, ye know that by this craft we have our wealth.
KJV

Now, I know that Acts 17 says that God doesn't dwell in "temples (naous) made with hands," HOWEVER, that is PRECISELY the point! The fact that this word DOES refer to "temples made with hands" means that your choice to limit the usage of the word to "sanctuary," as though it COULDN'T refer to a physical building, is insufficient.

Besides, there are other locations in Scripture that tell us that there SHALL be a future "temple made with hands!" Remember: God has NEVER dwelt in a "temple made with hands!" Shlomoh (Solomon) admitted this from the dedication of the building!

1 Kings 8:22-29
22 And Solomon stood before the altar of the LORD in the presence of all the congregation of Israel, and spread forth his hands toward heaven:
23 And he said, LORD God of Israel, there is no God like thee, in heaven above, or on earth beneath, who keepest covenant and mercy with thy servants that walk before thee with all their heart:
24 Who hast kept with thy servant David my father that thou promisedst him: thou spakest also with thy mouth, and hast fulfilled it with thine hand, as it is this day.
25 Therefore now, LORD God of Israel, keep with thy servant David my father that thou promisedst him, saying, There shall not fail thee a man in my sight to sit on the throne of Israel; so that thy children take heed to their way, that they walk before me as thou hast walked before me.
26 And now, O God of Israel, let thy word, I pray thee, be verified, which thou spakest unto thy servant David my father.
27 But will God indeed dwell on the earth? behold, the heaven and heaven of heavens cannot contain thee; how much less this house that I have builded?
28 Yet have thou respect unto the prayer of thy servant, and to his supplication, O Lord my God, to hearken unto the cry and to the prayer, which thy servant prayeth before thee to day:
29 That thine eyes may be open toward this house night and day, even toward the place of which thou hast said, My name shall be there: that thou mayest hearken unto the prayer which thy servant shall make toward this place.
KJV

I hope this helps you.

----------

Shalom, "Marcus O'Reillius."


Think of a two-dimensional graph such that the x-axis is time and the y-axis is the intensity of pressure that a people suffer. Now, picture the graph looking like that of a heart monitor, with peaks and troughs. God didn't cut the graph vertically at the end (in the future), God cuts the graph HORIZONTALLY and shifts it down (effectively raising the x-axis)! THAT is how the "days of trouble" are shortened! He won't shorten the TIME SPAN; He will shorten the number of TROUBLE-DAYS DURING that time span!

The Jews (including other Isra'elites, as well) and true Gentile Believers (who MIGHT call themselves "Christian") have been suffering these "trouble-days" of persecution for almost two millennia now! However, God gives them times of reprieve so that they won't be persecuted out of existence! Persecutions, houndings, banishment, inquisitions, pogroms, the Holocaust, suicide bombings, bus bombings, missile launches from Gaza - if these had been a steady bombardment, all would have died out long ago! BUT, God is faithful - He is LOYAL and CONSISTENT - who will not allow us to be tested above our endurance!

1 Corinthians 10:11
13 There hath no temptation (Greek: peirasmos = testing, a "putting to proof") taken you but such as is common to man: but God is faithful, who will not suffer you to be tempted (Greek: peirastheenai = to-be-tested) above that ye are able; but will with the temptation (Greek: sun too peirasmoo = with the testing) also make a way to escape, that ye may be able to bear it.
KJV

I know that most use this verse for the INTERNAL testing we all go through, but it is also true for the EXTERNAL testing we might suffer by means of persecution from others!

I think your starting to get it...passages not that difficult to grasp...great!

Old Jack's opinion

 

[Marcus O'Reillius]

Ok, but then what is the time frame looking like? God's wrath is poured out on the earth for how many months and years?

I like the fact that you agree that we are with Him when this happens. That is the chief issue / assumption with post trib thought. As never in scripture has God's wrath ever landed on His 'good' people.

Just also curious. Do you believe that if we came face to face with the anti-Christ (not likely for you and me, but surely for some)....that if we said ''I rebuke you in Jesus name'' ...he will just stand there and laugh at us?

The time frame would be the remainder of the second half of the one 'seven.' If the Great Tribulation is 2 months, God's Wrath would be spread over 40 months; 3 - 39 months, etc. I think in terms of 4-13 weeks; but the actual time is determined by God the Father.

We are not meant, "destined," for God's Wrath. The protection afforded the woman in Rev 12 is for the remnant Jews Jesus does protect in the second half, and the differentiation between the woman and us is when Jesus defines "her offspring" (us) as the ones persecuted by the "dragon" - those who belief in Jesus - at the end of chapter 12.

We may not come face-to-face, but we may come to see him through the abomination. And Jesus says we will be handed over - but do not fear. If we die as martyrs, we will receive the martyr's crown and we will have a tale to tell when we give account of ourselves. It is not for us to overcome the anti-Christ; that power and glory rightly belongs only to Jesus.

 

[Retrobyter]

Shalom, Marcus O'Reillius.

Retro, that's what you say, and I'm not going to go down your rabbit hole. I mean, it's well and fine, and all that, but you're simply not going to convince me no matter how much "logic" you put forth in your arguments.

Jesus said:

Mt 24:15 "Therefore when you see the abomination of desolation which was spoken of through Daniel the prophet, standing in the holy place ( let the reader understand), (skipping the instruction to the Jews in Judea) 21 For then there will be a great tribulation, such as has not occurred since the beginning of the world until now, nor ever will. 22 Unless those days had been cut short, no life would have been saved; but for the sake of the elect those days will be cut short.

So it works this way:
1. The midpoint abomination of Daniel 9:27 - (Yeah, yeah, I know, I've got Daniel 9;27 ALL WRONG according to you)
2. The Great Tribulation decimates the Elect to the point of extinction.
3. God cuts those days short.

I figure the Great Tribulation in weeks or months - nobody really knows how long, no more than anyone will know the Day when God will begin the Day of the Lord. However! When it begins - everybody will know! Still - they won't know the hour of His paraousia.

The word for 'cut short' is an agricultural term for how a farmer would "dock" the tail of an animal. This suggests the action is swift and decisive - and - that it cuts the tail (or the time of the Great Tribulation) off short.

"A man convinced against his will ...," eh? "Don't confuse me with the facts! My mind is already made up!" It must be nice for you to skip "the instruction to the Jews in Judaea," but these are YESHUA`S (JESUS') words you're "skipping!" The abomination of desolation was for THEM back then, NOT for us here in the future! "Therefore when YOU SEE the abomination of desolation...!"

I see it exactly the SAME WAY:

1. The midpoint abomination of Daniel 9:27
2. The Great Tribulation decimates the Elect to the point of extinction.
3. God cuts those days short.

The only differences are (1) Yeshua`s offer of the Kingdom (His "earthly ministry" of 3.5 years) was the first half of Dani'el's 70th Seven. Therefore the "midpoint abomination" began with the Jews' rejection of that Kingdom (by rejecting their King), the "overspreading of abominations that maketh desolate." Yeshua` HIMSELF put the gap in the seventy Sevens, but NOT between the 69 Sevens and the last Seven, but rather between the first and second halves of the 70th Seven!

Matthew 23:37-39
37 O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, thou that killest the prophets, and stonest them which are sent unto thee, how often would I have gathered thy children together, even as a hen gathereth her chickens under her wings, and ye would not!
38 Behold, your house is left unto you desolate.
39 For I say unto you, Ye shall not see me henceforth, till ye shall say, Blessed is he that cometh in the name of the Lord.
KJV

When He returns, He will start the clock once again and "offer" (DEMAND) the Kingdom.

(2) The Great Tribulation (begun in the first century) DOES decimate the Chosen Seed to the point of extinction even until today.

And, (3) God CONTINUALLY cuts the tribulation-days short THROUGHOUT the Great Tribulation to give the Chosen Seed a break now and then!

I figure the Great Tribulation in YEARS, DECADES, CENTURIES, even MILLENNIA!

You don't have to convince ME about farmers "docking" animals, but it's NOT usually their TAILS that get "docked!" It's the way to get geldings out of potential stallions!

 

[KingJ]

It is not for us to overcome the anti-Christ; that power and glory rightly belongs only to Jesus.

Are you saying we have no power over the devil? We are not one with Christ?

What is your view of the restrainer needing to leave in 2 Thess 2:6?

 

[Marcus O'Reillius]

I am saying that it is our pride that thinks we can overcome his anti-Christ in the end-times.

Paul and Peter performed many miracles - at first. Once the people realized God had authenticated them and their Gospel message, the miracles cease.

Likewise, in the end-times, there is a diminishing of our ability also. We are not empowered, but are "handed over." Only Jesus can save us. This is important. If we could save ourselves, we wouldn't need Jesus. We need Jesus to save us.

So I am not saying we are not one with Christ; I am saying we are unable to do God's Work. We need God in the person of Jesus. We can resist the devil and he will flee, and we can do that through the power of the Holy Spirit - when we invoke His Name and lean on our faith and not our self-will.

On the "one." (from my writings)

“The One Who Now Holds It Back” ~ 2nd Thessalonians 2:7

Some conjecture surrounds Paul’s explanation to the Thessalonians about what is holding the Man of Lawlessness back. Among competing eschatological arguments, the pre-Tribulation Rapture position maintains that it is the Church that is holding the forces of Satan back. Once the Church is removed, then the anti-Christ is free from what has bounded him and can begin his ascent to power. There are several reasons this interpretation fails.

First put into the overall context of the sequence of events, this is the first to come which leads to “the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our being gathered to him.” Only when the restraining power of this one is taken out of the way is the man of lawlessness revealed. After that, then Jesus will return and gather the Church. Jesus cannot gather up what has already been removed if the one that is taken out of the way is the Church. This puts the order in the wrong logical order from the overall sequence of events first delineated at the start of this section.

2nd Thessalonians supports a sequence of events that puts the Church in same position as knowing the anti-Christ as shown in Daniel’s end-time account in chapters 10-12. From Daniel 9:27, the abomination is set in the middle of the seventieth 'seven.' In Daniel 11:31, the abomination that Antiochus IV Epiphanes sets up serves as a lens of dual focus. Shifting to the nebulous verses Daniel 11:32-35 thereafter which may have both a near and far sense puts the subsequent action after the midpoint in the far sense which is the focus of this commentary. Likewise here, those that know their God, the true believers, recognize the person who sets up that statue as the anti-Christ and they resist him. This also parallels the Olivet Discourse sequence Jesus lays out where the Abomination comes, then the Great Tribulation, then the Son of Man on the clouds followed by the gathering of the elect.

Secondly would have to do with the language itself. From a systematic theology, the Church has been shown to be figuratively referred to as the feminine complement to the masculine God. If this indeed is the reference Paul is making, then to be consistent with the relationship between Church and God as expressed in 2nd Corinthians 11:2 or Ephesians 5:32 one would expect him to refer to this restraining force as feminine. Indeed the word for church, ekklesia, is feminine as well. So, if Paul were trying to intimate that it is the Church that is restraining the arising of the man of lawlessness, then it would follow logically that the pronoun he uses would be feminine. Alas, for proponents that would assign this function to the Church, the opposite is true.

2Th 2:6 And now you know what is holding him back, so that he may be revealed at the proper time. 7 For the secret power of lawlessness is already at work; but the one who now holds it back will continue to do so till he is taken out of the way.

The word for he in verse 6 reflects the word what. Here the word what refers to the definite article in the Greek, to, and that is in the neuter singular. This is also reflected in the lexical use of holding…back also being neuter in gender. However in the present active participle accusative case, it only occurs in the neuter gender. While not strictly based, the same reference to the one who of verse 7 reflects the use of holds (it) back of the same verse 7 as being in the lexical usage as the present active participle masculine singular of the verb. Like the accusative, this is the only gender allowed in the nominative case. This is also supported by the aspect of taken (out of the way) being in the aorist middle subjective third person singular. So taken as a whole, the case of the verbs acting as participles along with the definite article would suggest anything but a feminine reference and would support a generic reading of he. The ambiguity between neuter and masculine genders may have more to do with the limits of the conjugation of holds back as a present active participle. The first reference suggests the Holy Spirit, where the word for Spirit, or breath, being pneumati is neuter singular.

Thirdly, the word taken itself does not impart a strict snatching, lifting, capturing, gathering or receiving as in other verb usages for the Rapture in the Gospel accounts or Epistles. In the lexical Koine Greek, the word is ginomai and means to come into being, to happen, or to become. With the negation of the verb found in the preposition ek, for out of, merely states that whatever was holding back the secret power of lawlessness ceases to be in the middle or midst (of the situation). This would be the most literal translation of ews ek mesos genhtai. The verb taken here in the inflected is also in the aorist tense, middle voice. While the aorist tense can be interpreted as a summary occurrence, the middle voice shows the subject also participates in the process, acts in its own interest, or on its own behalf. This lends more credence to the Holy Spirit being the actor that is holding back the secret power of lawlessness.

Fourth, as a matter of Christian theology, the link between what is ‘holding back’ the forces of evil being spiritual would be supported in two-fold measure. First is the lack of ability for man to exert force against or to prevail by his own means against Satan. While man has rule over the earth, (from the root word rada, meaning to rule in Genesis 1:26) Satan is not a physical manifestation of the world. The second would be a confirmation of the first explicitly expressed in 2nd Thessalonians verse 2:8 in that it is by the breath of Jesus’ mouth that the anti-Christ is defeated, where once again breath is pneumati in the Greek.

Fifthly, pulling the Church out of the world at this time on the basis of interpreting what and he are in the English as representing the Church then leaves the question of who the Saints are in Daniel chapters 7 and 8 that are being persecuted by the anti-Christ in his rise to supremacy at the mid-week. As a matter of systematic theology, if Saints refers to believers in Christ as used in the Bible, then interpreting the Church for he begs the question of which group now the Saints represent. One explanation offered is that this would be the Jews, but if Revelation 12:6 and 12:14 refer to the nation of Israel as the figurative woman God loved among nations from Ezekiel 16, then they cannot both be protected and persecuted. Furthermore, Revelation is quite clear in delineating Israel as a nation from her offspring, those that “hold to the testimony of Jesus” as in verse 12:17. It is the latter that are the target of the anti-Christ’s persecution since the former are protected by God.

In order for the interpretation to be valid, it has to work with the whole of Scripture. The danger of looking at only selective verses is that the whole can be misrepresented, and as a corollary, some verses can only be understood when examined in the light of other revelations from God. Referencing the reader back to Daniel at Jesus’ prophetic utterances in the Olivet Discourse is an excellent example whereby to make sense of one verse relies on another.

The final aspect of what is holding back the secret power of lawlessness shows that information has been lost over time. Paul’s letters do not reflect all the knowledge he imparted to the Churches in his travels. Paul makes reference to meeting John, as the one who has been in the heavenly realm in 2nd Corinthians 12:2, but provides no detail other than the inexpressible knowledge that man had. Paul also refers to the fact there are many “gods” and “lords” in 1st Corinthians 8:5, but provides no information about the order of the heavenly and earthly realm in regards to these deities and God.

The fact that modern readers have to accept is that truth revealed to the Apostles by the Spirit has not been passed down through man to the present. Thus, the question ultimately as to whom this is that holds back the secret power of lawlessness is not definitive, not by design, but as a matter of circumstance. However, within the language itself, as a matter of systematic theology, and taking prophecy in a holistic manner – whereby Scripture cannot be broken, the reader ought to understand the best interpretation for what is holding back the secret power of lawlessness is the Holy Spirit.

 

[KingJ]

I am saying that it is our pride that thinks we can overcome his anti-Christ in the end-times.

Paul and Peter performed many miracles - at first. Once the people realized God had authenticated them and their Gospel message, the miracles cease.

Likewise, in the end-times, there is a diminishing of our ability also. We are not empowered, but are "handed over." Only Jesus can save us. This is important. If we could save ourselves, we wouldn't need Jesus. We need Jesus to save us.

So I am not saying we are not one with Christ; I am saying we are unable to do God's Work. We need God in the person of Jesus. We can resist the devil and he will flee, and we can do that through the power of the Holy Spirit - when we invoke His Name and lean on our faith and not our self-will.

On the "one." (from my writings)

“The One Who Now Holds It Back” ~ 2nd Thessalonians 2:7

Some conjecture surrounds Paul’s explanation to the Thessalonians about what is holding the Man of Lawlessness back. Among competing eschatological arguments, the pre-Tribulation Rapture position maintains that it is the Church that is holding the forces of Satan back. Once the Church is removed, then the anti-Christ is free from what has bounded him and can begin his ascent to power. There are several reasons this interpretation fails.

First put into the overall context of the sequence of events, this is the first to come which leads to “the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our being gathered to him.” Only when the restraining power of this one is taken out of the way is the man of lawlessness revealed. After that, then Jesus will return and gather the Church. Jesus cannot gather up what has already been removed if the one that is taken out of the way is the Church. This puts the order in the wrong logical order from the overall sequence of events first delineated at the start of this section.

2nd Thessalonians supports a sequence of events that puts the Church in same position as knowing the anti-Christ as shown in Daniel’s end-time account in chapters 10-12. From Daniel 9:27, the abomination is set in the middle of the seventieth 'seven.' In Daniel 11:31, the abomination that Antiochus IV Epiphanes sets up serves as a lens of dual focus. Shifting to the nebulous verses Daniel 11:32-35 thereafter which may have both a near and far sense puts the subsequent action after the midpoint in the far sense which is the focus of this commentary. Likewise here, those that know their God, the true believers, recognize the person who sets up that statue as the anti-Christ and they resist him. This also parallels the Olivet Discourse sequence Jesus lays out where the Abomination comes, then the Great Tribulation, then the Son of Man on the clouds followed by the gathering of the elect.

Secondly would have to do with the language itself. From a systematic theology, the Church has been shown to be figuratively referred to as the feminine complement to the masculine God. If this indeed is the reference Paul is making, then to be consistent with the relationship between Church and God as expressed in 2nd Corinthians 11:2 or Ephesians 5:32 one would expect him to refer to this restraining force as feminine. Indeed the word for church, ekklesia, is feminine as well. So, if Paul were trying to intimate that it is the Church that is restraining the arising of the man of lawlessness, then it would follow logically that the pronoun he uses would be feminine. Alas, for proponents that would assign this function to the Church, the opposite is true.

2Th 2:6 And now you know what is holding him back, so that he may be revealed at the proper time. 7 For the secret power of lawlessness is already at work; but the one who now holds it back will continue to do so till he is taken out of the way.

The word for he in verse 6 reflects the word what. Here the word what refers to the definite article in the Greek, to, and that is in the neuter singular. This is also reflected in the lexical use of holding…back also being neuter in gender. However in the present active participle accusative case, it only occurs in the neuter gender. While not strictly based, the same reference to the one who of verse 7 reflects the use of holds (it) back of the same verse 7 as being in the lexical usage as the present active participle masculine singular of the verb. Like the accusative, this is the only gender allowed in the nominative case. This is also supported by the aspect of taken (out of the way) being in the aorist middle subjective third person singular. So taken as a whole, the case of the verbs acting as participles along with the definite article would suggest anything but a feminine reference and would support a generic reading of he. The ambiguity between neuter and masculine genders may have more to do with the limits of the conjugation of holds back as a present active participle. The first reference suggests the Holy Spirit, where the word for Spirit, or breath, being pneumati is neuter singular.

Thirdly, the word taken itself does not impart a strict snatching, lifting, capturing, gathering or receiving as in other verb usages for the Rapture in the Gospel accounts or Epistles. In the lexical Koine Greek, the word is ginomai and means to come into being, to happen, or to become. With the negation of the verb found in the preposition ek, for out of, merely states that whatever was holding back the secret power of lawlessness ceases to be in the middle or midst (of the situation). This would be the most literal translation of ews ek mesos genhtai. The verb taken here in the inflected is also in the aorist tense, middle voice. While the aorist tense can be interpreted as a summary occurrence, the middle voice shows the subject also participates in the process, acts in its own interest, or on its own behalf. This lends more credence to the Holy Spirit being the actor that is holding back the secret power of lawlessness.

Fourth, as a matter of Christian theology, the link between what is ‘holding back’ the forces of evil being spiritual would be supported in two-fold measure. First is the lack of ability for man to exert force against or to prevail by his own means against Satan. While man has rule over the earth, (from the root word rada, meaning to rule in Genesis 1:26) Satan is not a physical manifestation of the world. The second would be a confirmation of the first explicitly expressed in 2nd Thessalonians verse 2:8 in that it is by the breath of Jesus’ mouth that the anti-Christ is defeated, where once again breath is pneumati in the Greek.

Fifthly, pulling the Church out of the world at this time on the basis of interpreting what and he are in the English as representing the Church then leaves the question of who the Saints are in Daniel chapters 7 and 8 that are being persecuted by the anti-Christ in his rise to supremacy at the mid-week. As a matter of systematic theology, if Saints refers to believers in Christ as used in the Bible, then interpreting the Church for he begs the question of which group now the Saints represent. One explanation offered is that this would be the Jews, but if Revelation 12:6 and 12:14 refer to the nation of Israel as the figurative woman God loved among nations from Ezekiel 16, then they cannot both be protected and persecuted. Furthermore, Revelation is quite clear in delineating Israel as a nation from her offspring, those that “hold to the testimony of Jesus” as in verse 12:17. It is the latter that are the target of the anti-Christ’s persecution since the former are protected by God.

In order for the interpretation to be valid, it has to work with the whole of Scripture. The danger of looking at only selective verses is that the whole can be misrepresented, and as a corollary, some verses can only be understood when examined in the light of other revelations from God. Referencing the reader back to Daniel at Jesus’ prophetic utterances in the Olivet Discourse is an excellent example whereby to make sense of one verse relies on another.

The final aspect of what is holding back the secret power of lawlessness shows that information has been lost over time. Paul’s letters do not reflect all the knowledge he imparted to the Churches in his travels. Paul makes reference to meeting John, as the one who has been in the heavenly realm in 2nd Corinthians 12:2, but provides no detail other than the inexpressible knowledge that man had. Paul also refers to the fact there are many “gods” and “lords” in 1st Corinthians 8:5, but provides no information about the order of the heavenly and earthly realm in regards to these deities and God.

The fact that modern readers have to accept is that truth revealed to the Apostles by the Spirit has not been passed down through man to the present. Thus, the question ultimately as to whom this is that holds back the secret power of lawlessness is not definitive, not by design, but as a matter of circumstance. However, within the language itself, as a matter of systematic theology, and taking prophecy in a holistic manner – whereby Scripture cannot be broken, the reader ought to understand the best interpretation for what is holding back the secret power of lawlessness is the Holy Spirit.

I can't see the devil or any fallen angel having power over us or not running when we rebuke them. Humans, like Hitler, different story.

Otherwise your post was interesting read, thanks for the discussion and effort in your replies.

 

[shturt678s]

Thank you folks for caring again!
"IIThess.2:6, "And the thing now holding up you know, so that he is revealed in his season,...." Only a head's up, The Lord Godman Jesus was the One holding up the revelation of the Antichrist. Not the "Church."

The "Rapture" will occur at IThess.4:17 of course, viz. Dan.12:2, Jn.5:28, 29; 6:39. You wouldn't want to be 'left behind' would you.

Old Jack's opinion

BTW the pre-trib. is the miraculous preliminary judgments, and non-miraculous, coming to pass at this very moment.

 

[Marcus O'Reillius]

"A man convinced against his will ...," eh? "Don't confuse me with the facts! My mind is already made up!"

Right back atcha. Like with your acclamation that you can easily solve all types of puzzles and so think outside the box, but you stay inside the box and try to fit a 1500 mile cube on a sphere 8000 miles in diameter and can't account for how the top 1,496 miles of occupants won't be able to breath - you believe what you think is true. As to the Great Tribulation, you construct a two-dimensional box and while Jesus is talking about time properly put in context because He mentions "those days," you ignore the time aspect and instead cut down the intensity (as another axis) which you invent and insert into the text. Really? You are wise in your eyes, and you will not change your mind.

It must be nice for you to skip "the instruction to the Jews in Judaea," but these are YESHUA`S (JESUS') words you're "skipping!" The abomination of desolation was for THEM back then, NOT for us here in the future! "Therefore when YOU SEE the abomination of desolation...!"

As an analysis of EVENTS - the Jews in Judea are not germane to establishing a timeline. The timeline of events are advanced at verse 21.

The Jews evacuating is a very important element, and the instruction is not will, but they "must" or alternatively translated, "let," which does not establish this as something that will happen for those in Judea. In fact, some won't, or Jesus would have said: 'Then those in Judea will flee.' -- THAT would have established their fleeing as an event. The admonishments in verses 17, 18, 19, and 20 are all specific instructions to those who do flee. They are not "events" per se. Therefore, in an analysis of general EVENTS, as they pertain to us, we can omit those fleeing in Judea from the first grooming. I do, as a matter of deeper analysis include those in Judea fleeing in the complete sequence of events: the Jews are prominently figured in end-time prophecy, but they are not the main theme.

However, with or without the inclusion of the aspect of those in Judea fleeing, verse 21 also establishes that the Great Tribulation happens at the same time as those fleeing - "For then there will be Great Tribulation..." - and this hearkens back to verse 15. SO - in the scope of EVENTS - we can list the abomination first, followed immediately by the Great Tribulation. This is backed up in Revelation 13:

Rev 13:15 And it was given to him to give breath to the image of the beast, so that the image of the beast would even speak and cause as many as do not worship the image of the beast to be killed. 16 And he causes all, the small and the great, and the rich and the poor, and the free men and the slaves, to be given a mark on their right hand or on their forehead, 17 and he provides that no one will be able to buy or to sell, except the one who has the mark, either the name of the beast or the number of his name.

So when the abomination - which in the Bible refers to idolatry! - the talking image of a man - is erected: TWO LAWS are enacted at the same time which make the Great Tribulation the worst time ever - as Jesus said. Therefore, when you see the abomination of desolation standing in the holy place, there will be great tribulation. One follows the other immediately. The Jews in Judea fleeing is a side issue which happens at the same time.

Looking at YOUR eschatology: you count Jesus' ministry as limited in scope (one 'seven') and culminate His Ministry as the first half of that - and call His Sacrifice - which provides for our saving - as an abomination spoken of by Daniel! Paul would emphatically exclaim: "Such a thing should never be!" You also make a mockery of Jesus' description of the Great Tribulation as a specific and unique event which is the worst time ever.

I reject your reasoning.

(2) The Great Tribulation (begun in the first century) DOES decimate the Chosen Seed to the point of extinction even until today.

Negative.

Much of Jewish history has not been the worst time ever, but fits a age-old pattern of war, which as bad as it's been, can find other times/places/peoples who endured as bad or worse.

Secondly, the Great Tribulation bypasses the Jews who are protected. Those in Judea flee. God then protects them because God will bring a remnant of the Jews (about a third according to Zechariah) into the Millennium. This can be also found in one of the parallel accounts in Revelation.

Rev 12:14 But the two wings of the great eagle were given to the woman, so that she could fly into the wilderness to her place, where she *was nourished for a time and times and half a time, from the presence of the serpent. 15 And the serpent poured water like a river out of his mouth after the woman, so that he might cause her to be swept away with the flood. 16 But the earth helped the woman, and the earth opened its mouth and drank up the river which the dragon poured out of his mouth. 17 So the dragon was enraged with the woman, and went off to make war with the rest of her children, who keep the commandments of God and hold to the testimony of Jesus.

The woman, Israel, the fleeing Jews, of whom some will be those from Judea, are protected by God. More information can be found about them in Isaiah. Satan, frustrated that he cannot squash God's Chosen People, turns his (unwanted) attention to US - Christians - the Elect.

It is the Elect, who Paul tells us, are among the few who are remain - and do not EVER die! - who witness (God is BIG on witnessing) Jesus arrive with the Saints (resurrected from Paradise) coming with Him on the clouds.

1Th 4:15 For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord, will not precede those who have fallen asleep.
1Co 15:51 Behold, I tell you a mystery; we will not all sleep, but we will all be changed,

And putting what Paul says together what Jesus said supports an argument that those who remain alive are few:

Mt 24:22 Unless those days had been cut short, no life would have been saved; but for the sake of the elect those days will be cut short.

And this works with the fifth Seal which will see the number of martyrs increase in number, yet SOME will survive to see Jesus coming on the Day of the Lord - and THEY will experience the rapture.

So it is the Elect, Christians, and not God's Chosen People, the Jews, who are rescued out of the Great Tribulation. This is backed up in Revelation 7.

Rev 7:9 After these things I looked, and behold, a great multitude which no one could count, from every nation and all tribes and peoples and tongues, standing before the throne and before the Lamb, clothed in white robes, and palm branches were in their hands; 10 and they cry out with a loud voice, saying, " Salvation to our God who sits on the throne, and to the Lamb."

The Jews do not recognize Jesus the Servant Messiah as their Messiah King until the Millennium.

And, (3) God CONTINUALLY cuts the tribulation-days short THROUGHOUT the Great Tribulation to give the Chosen Seed a break now and then!

Negative.

Those days are cut short when the Day of the Lord arrives. It is not a continual cutting... that is something you made up and interject into the text from your own thinking.

Mt 24:29 "But immediately after the tribulation of those days the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light, and the stars will fall from the sky, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken. (This is the sun/moon/star event of the Day of the Lord.) 30 And then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in the sky, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of the sky with power and great glory.

The Great Tribulation goes on decimating the Elect UNTIL the Day of the Lord begins. 1-2. Then the evil-doers will be more concerned with their own skin than persecuting those who follow Jesus.

I figure the Great Tribulation in YEARS, DECADES, CENTURIES, even MILLENNIA!

YOU figure it that way. I reject your thinking, reasoning, and conclusion.

Jesus says the Great Tribulation starts at the midpoint abomination and goes until the Day of the Lord arrives.

You don't have to convince ME about farmers "docking" animals, but it's NOT usually their TAILS that get "docked!" It's the way to get geldings out of potential stallions!

Negative again.

koloboō in the New Testament means to cut short. Farmers do "dock" the tails of some of their animals.

If Matthew and Mark had meant to say castrate, they would have used ευνουχίζω which is where we get the word eunuch. They didn't use cut off; they used cut short. There is a difference.

 

[Retrobyter]

Shabbat shalom, Marcus.

Right back atcha. Like with your acclamation that you can easily solve all types of puzzles and so think outside the box, but you stay inside the box and try to fit a 1500 mile cube on a sphere 8000 miles in diameter and can't account for how the top 1,496 miles of occupants won't be able to breath - you believe what you think is true. ...

Look, this is a real tragedy. You can think about me whatever you want, but I have ALREADY accounted for how the top 1,496 miles of occupants are able to breathe! They are ENCASED within the walls of the city! There is NO open top as the walls of a pyramid, triangular in shape, join at the pinnacle in a CAPSTONE (the "head stone of the corner", Psalm 118:22)! Furthermore, there are LEVELS to the city as each "foundation" is a separate building level to the city! I believe that there will be sub-levels within that (although the Scriptures are silent about that).

The first foundation is said to consist of jasper; each of the four walls of the city are jasper; there is no "roof"; the city is said to look like a jasper or a sardine stone (sard); and jasper is the "blood" of the bloodstone! You can't get into the city except through the blood!

Each floor is pressurized, just like your cabin in a plane! Each floor carries its OWN air supply! Is that really so difficult to accept? WHY? Furthermore, we are told that the river of the water of life runs throughout the city down the middle of its street, providing drinking water to its inhabitants and to its flora, and we are told that the tree of life grows throughout the city in parks found in the medians of that street, providing a variety of fruits and oxygen to breathe!

Let's think about this for a moment: I had a friend in Bible college - Gary - who thought the city would be a cube. I argued with him that it was a pyramid. We went round and round with this, and I gave him about 18 arguments for why it should be a pyramid instead of a cube. Seventeen of those arguments he rejected. Do you know what convinced him? It was something I didn't even think would have much merit. It was the POSITION OF GOD'S THRONE within the city! In a cube, the logical position of the throne would be at the center of the cube, right? But, where would the logical position of God's throne be in a pyramid? AT THE CAPSTONE! The river of the water of life flows from the throne (Rev. 22:1). How does the river flow upward in a cube? However, in a pyramid sitting on the New Earth, how would the river flow? That was all it took!

Yes, I'm adamant about my position on the New Jerusalem because I have been studying it in detail for over 30 years! I KNOW what the Scriptures say about it!

-----

Shalom, Marcus.

... As an analysis of EVENTS - the Jews in Judea are not germane to establishing a timeline. The timeline of events are advanced at verse 21.

The Jews evacuating is a very important element, and the instruction is not will, but they "must" or alternatively translated, "let," which does not establish this as something that will happen for those in Judea. In fact, some won't, or Jesus would have said: 'Then those in Judea will flee.' -- THAT would have established their fleeing as an event. The admonishments in verses 17, 18, 19, and 20 are all specific instructions to those who do flee. They are not "events" per se. Therefore, in an analysis of general EVENTS, as they pertain to us, we can omit those fleeing in Judea from the first grooming. I do, as a matter of deeper analysis include those in Judea fleeing in the complete sequence of events: the Jews are prominently figured in end-time prophecy, but they are not the main theme.

However, with or without the inclusion of the aspect of those in Judea fleeing, verse 21 also establishes that the Great Tribulation happens at the same time as those fleeing - "For then there will be Great Tribulation..." - and this hearkens back to verse 15. SO - in the scope of EVENTS - we can list the abomination first, followed immediately by the Great Tribulation. This is backed up in Revelation 13:

Rev 13:15 And it was given to him to give breath to the image of the beast, so that the image of the beast would even speak and cause as many as do not worship the image of the beast to be killed. 16 And he causes all, the small and the great, and the rich and the poor, and the free men and the slaves, to be given a mark on their right hand or on their forehead, 17 and he provides that no one will be able to buy or to sell, except the one who has the mark, either the name of the beast or the number of his name.

So when the abomination - which in the Bible refers to idolatry! - the talking image of a man - is erected: TWO LAWS are enacted at the same time which make the Great Tribulation the worst time ever - as Jesus said. Therefore, when you see the abomination of desolation standing in the holy place, there will be great tribulation. One follows the other immediately. The Jews in Judea fleeing is a side issue which happens at the same time.

Looking at YOUR eschatology: you count Jesus' ministry as limited in scope (one 'seven') and culminate His Ministry as the first half of that - and call His Sacrifice - which provides for our saving - as an abomination spoken of by Daniel! Paul would emphatically exclaim: "Such a thing should never be!" You also make a mockery of Jesus' description of the Great Tribulation as a specific and unique event which is the worst time ever.

I reject your reasoning.
...

Wow. "The Jews in Judea are not germane to establishing a timeline"? Seriously?! Haven't you even READ Matthew 23:37-39?!
Matthew 23:37-39
37 O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, thou that killest the prophets, and stonest them which are sent unto thee, how often would I have gathered thy children together, even as a hen gathereth her chickens under her wings, and ye would not!
38 Behold, your house is left unto you desolate.
39 For I say unto you, Ye shall not see me henceforth, till ye shall say, Blessed is he that cometh in the name of the Lord.
KJV

Yeshua` quoted Psalm 118:26. Read the rest of the quoted verse:
Psalm 118:26
26 Blessed be he that cometh in the name of the LORD: we have blessed you out of the house of the LORD.
KJV

I'd say that makes them pretty important to the timeline if the Lord doesn't come back until they can welcome Him (Hebrew: Baruwkh haba' = "Welcome, the comer" translated as "Blessed be he that cometh") and welcome Him from the Temple no less!

Secondly, talk about being misunderstood and misquoted! Have you checked the Greek on the Olivet Discourse? I mean, REALLY checked the Greek without presupposition or prejudice or hidden agendas? Have you READ and STUDIED each account (Matthew 24; Mark 13; and Luke 21) in the Greek? Have you bothered to try harmonizing the various reports from Matthew, Mark and Luke in Greek? Have you considered to whom Yeshua` was talking? Have you investigated the various pronouns and verbs being used in the passages?

Anytime the passage is quoting Yeshua` using the Greek word "humeis" or one of its forms ("ye" or "you"), He was DIRECTLY speaking to His disciples standing and sitting around Him on that mountainside that day!

When Yeshua` began to speak about the future, THE PRONOUNS AND VERBS CHANGED! He varied His view several times within His discourse. I can guarantee you that when Yeshua` was talking about the "abomination of desolation," He was SPECIFICALLY talking to His students during the first century! Here's that portion of the Olivet Discourse in the Greek of Matthew 24:

15 Hotan oun ideete to bdelugma tees ereemooseoos to reethen dia Danieel tou profeetou hestos en topoo hagioo, ho anaginooskoon noeitoo,
16 tote hoi en tee Ioudaia feugetoosan eis ta oree,
17 ho epi tou doomatos mee katabatoo arai ta ek tees oikias autou,
18 kai ho en too agroo mee epistrepsatoo opisoo arai to himation autou.

15 Hotan = 15 When
oun = therefore
ideete = ye-shall-see
to = the
bdelugma = abomination
tees = of-the
ereemooseoos = desolation
to = the-(one)
reethen = spoken
dia = through
Danieel = Daniel
tou = the
profeetou =prophet
hestos = standing
en = in
topoo = a-place
hagioo, = holy,
ho = the
anaginooskoon = reader
noeitoo, = let-him-understand/comprehend,
16 tote = then
hoi = those
en = in
tee = the
Ioudaia = (land-of)-Y'hudah/Judah
feugetoosan = (ye)-let-flee
eis = into
ta = the
oree, = mountains,
17 ho = 17 the-(one)
epi = upon
tou = the
doomatos =housetop
mee = not
katabatoo = (ye)-let-come-down
arai = to-take
ta = anything
ek = out-of
tees = the
oikias = house
autou, = of-him/his,
18 kai = 18 and
ho = the-(one)
en = in
too = the
agroo = field
mee = not
epistrepsatoo = (ye)-let-return
opisoo = back
arai = to-retrieve
to = the
himation =clothes
autou. = of-him/his.

The point is that this is a FIRST-CENTURY sentence! Thus, it was something that first-century disciples had to deal with, not us or anyone in our future!

So, I AGREE with your conclusion, "... with or without the inclusion of the aspect of those in Judea fleeing, verse 21 also establishes that the Great Tribulation happens at the same time as those fleeing - 'For then there will be Great Tribulation...' - and this hearkens back to verse 15. SO - in the scope of EVENTS - we can list the abomination first, followed immediately by the Great Tribulation." But, don't you see how this puts the Great Tribulation beginning in the first century A.D? However, on the other hand, you're also right that the Great Tribulation doesn't end until ...

Matthew 24:29-31
29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:
30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.
KJV

This is why I conclude that the Great Tribulation has lasted for almost 2,000 years and may last longer, depending on when the sign of the Son of man shall be seen in the sky! And, I would argue that a 2000-year-long tribulation period is the WORST tribulation ever!

The thing we have to remember is that there is NO SCRIPTURAL EVIDENCE for believing that the Seventieth Seven is or contains the Great Tribulation! Therefore, the Great Tribulation is NOT "7 years long" or even "3.5 years long" (or shorter)!

Finally, as far as your conclusion, ...

"Looking at YOUR eschatology: you count Jesus' ministry as limited in scope (one 'seven') and culminate His Ministry as the first half of that - and call His Sacrifice - which provides for our saving - as an abomination spoken of by Daniel! Paul would emphatically exclaim: "Such a thing should never be!" You also make a mockery of Jesus' description of the Great Tribulation as a specific and unique event which is the worst time ever."

Perhaps, from your perspective, "ministry" was a poor choice of word. I just said it that way because many Christians call the time from Yeshua`s baptism to His death/resurrection His "earthly ministry." Actually, it was the time when He offered the Kingdom to Isra'el until they slapped His hand away.

And, I have NEVER called Yeshua`s Sacrifice "an abomination!" PLEASE don't put absurd words in my mouth! What I said was that the Jews' REJECTION of the Messiah Yeshua` was the "overspreading of abominations!" "Abomination" IS frequently associated with idolatry in the Tanakh (the OT); HOWEVER, it really means "anything that makes God sick to His stomach," so to speak! Idolatry - the worship of false gods represented by idols - is ONE such thing that makes God sick, but the rejection of His Son is also something that disgusts Him!

 

[Trekson]

Hi Guys, Just a quick comment regarding the thoughts behind this paragraph..."Look, this is a real tragedy. You can think about me whatever you want, but I have ALREADY accounted for how the top 1,496 miles of occupants are able to breathe! They are ENCASED within the walls of the city! There is NO open top as the walls of a pyramid, triangular in shape, join at the pinnacle in a CAPSTONE (the "head stone of the corner", Psalm 118:22)! Furthermore, there are LEVELS to the city as each "foundation" is a separate building level to the city! I believe that there will be sub-levels within that (although the Scriptures are silent about that)."

Immortal, incorruptible, eternal bodies don't need to breathe. We won't need to eat, though we can if we want to, we won't need to use "facilities", we won't have a beating heart, in fact I can't think of any "innards" we would need to possess. Our eternal body may look like our external physical body, though "new and improved" but that's about it.

 

[UppsalaDragby]

Hi Guys, Just a quick comment regarding the thoughts behind this paragraph..."Look, this is a real tragedy. You can think about me whatever you want, but I have ALREADY accounted for how the top 1,496 miles of occupants are able to breathe! They are ENCASED within the walls of the city! There is NO open top as the walls of a pyramid, triangular in shape, join at the pinnacle in a CAPSTONE (the "head stone of the corner", Psalm 118:22)! Furthermore, there are LEVELS to the city as each "foundation" is a separate building level to the city! I believe that there will be sub-levels within that (although the Scriptures are silent about that)."

Immortal, incorruptible, eternal bodies don't need to breathe. We won't need to eat, though we can if we want to, we won't need to use "facilities", we won't have a beating heart, in fact I can't think of any "innards" we would need to possess. Our eternal body may look like our external physical body, though "new and improved" but that's about it.

Sorry to butt in Trekson, but I don't quite agree with that. Having eternal bodies does not necessarily mean that we won't consume anything in the age to come. Why otherwise would there be a tree of life in the new Jerusalem bearing "fruit"? And why did Adam and Eve need to eat anything before transgressing the law of sin and death?

Perhaps eating what God gives us to eat IS a part of eternal life?

Just a thought...

 

[Trekson]

Hi Up, Your words:"Having eternal bodies does not necessarily mean that we won't consume anything in the age to come. Why otherwise would there be a tree of life in the new Jerusalem bearing "fruit"? And why did Adam and Eve need to eat anything before transgressing the law of sin and death?"

I did say we could eat if we wanted to, it implies that we wouldn't starve to death if we didn't. Adam and Eve weren't immortal with incorruptible bodies. Obviously, they were long-lived and that didn't change for centuries but they got "corrupted".

 

[Retrobyter]

Shalom, Trekson.

Hi Up, Your words:"Having eternal bodies does not necessarily mean that we won't consume anything in the age to come. Why otherwise would there be a tree of life in the new Jerusalem bearing "fruit"? And why did Adam and Eve need to eat anything before transgressing the law of sin and death?"

I did say we could eat if we wanted to, it implies that we wouldn't starve to death if we didn't. Adam and Eve weren't immortal with incorruptible bodies. Obviously, they were long-lived and that didn't change for centuries but they got "corrupted".

Quit letting your imagination run away with you! Anchor it in God's Word! You are assuming too much! Why were the leaves of the tree of life "for the healing of the nations?" There are MANY prophecies about eating and drinking in the Scriptures!

Isaiah 61:1-62:9
61:1 The Spirit of the Lord God is upon me; because the Lord hath anointed me to preach good tidings unto the meek; he hath sent me to bind up the brokenhearted, to proclaim liberty to the captives, and the opening of the prison to them that are bound;
2 To proclaim the acceptable year of the Lord, and the day of vengeance of our God; to comfort all that mourn;
3 To appoint unto them that mourn in Zion, to give unto them beauty for ashes, the oil of joy for mourning, the garment of praise for the spirit of heaviness; that they might be called trees of righteousness, the planting of the Lord, that he might be glorified.
4 And they shall build the old wastes, they shall raise up the former desolations, and they shall repair the waste cities, the desolations of many generations.
5 And strangers shall stand and feed your flocks, and the sons of the alien shall be your plowmen and your vinedressers.
6 But ye shall be named the Priests of the Lord: men shall call you the Ministers of our God: ye shall eat the riches of the Gentiles, and in their glory shall ye boast yourselves.
7 For your shame ye shall have double; and for confusion they shall rejoice in their portion: therefore in their land they shall possess the double: everlasting joy shall be unto them.
8 For I the Lord love judgment, I hate robbery for burnt offering; and I will direct their work in truth, and I will make an everlasting covenant with them.
9 And their seed shall be known among the Gentiles, and their offspring among the people: all that see them shall acknowledge them, that they are the seed which the Lord hath blessed.
10 I will greatly rejoice in the Lord, my soul shall be joyful in my God; for he hath clothed me with the garments of salvation, he hath covered me with the robe of righteousness, as a bridegroom decketh himself with ornaments, and as a bride adorneth herself with her jewels.
11 For as the earth bringeth forth her bud, and as the garden causeth the things that are sown in it to spring forth; so the Lord God will cause righteousness and praise to spring forth before all the nations.
62 For Zion's sake will I not hold my peace, and for Jerusalem's sake I will not rest, until the righteousness thereof go forth as brightness, and the salvation thereof as a lamp that burneth.
2 And the Gentiles shall see thy righteousness, and all kings thy glory: and thou shalt be called by a new name, which the mouth of the Lord shall name.
3 Thou shalt also be a crown of glory in the hand of the Lord, and a royal diadem in the hand of thy God.
4 Thou shalt no more be termed Forsaken; neither shall thy land any more be termed Desolate: but thou shalt be called Hephzi-bah, and thy land Beulah: for the Lord delighteth in thee, and thy land shall be married.
5 For as a young man marrieth a virgin, so shall thy sons marry thee: and as the bridegroom rejoiceth over the bride, so shall thy God rejoice over thee.
6 I have set watchmen upon thy walls, O Jerusalem, which shall never hold their peace day nor night: ye that make mention of the Lord, keep not silence,
7 And give him no rest, till he establish, and till he make Jerusalem a praise in the earth.
8 The Lord hath sworn by his right hand, and by the arm of his strength, Surely I will no more give thy corn to be meat for thine enemies; and the sons of the stranger shall not drink thy wine, for the which thou hast laboured:
9 But they that have gathered it shall eat it, and praise the Lord; and they that have brought it together shall drink it in the courts of my holiness.
KJV

Ezekiel 44:1-3, 17-31
1 Then he brought me back the way of the gate of the outward sanctuary which looketh toward the east; and it was shut.
2 Then said the Lord unto me; This gate shall be shut, it shall not be opened, and no man shall enter in by it; because the Lord, the God of Israel, hath entered in by it, therefore it shall be shut.
3 It is for the prince; the prince, he shall sit in it to eat bread before the Lord; he shall enter by the way of the porch of that gate, and shall go out by the way of the same.
...
17 And it shall come to pass, that when they enter in at the gates of the inner court, they shall be clothed with linen garments; and no wool shall come upon them, whiles they minister in the gates of the inner court, and within.
18 They shall have linen bonnets upon their heads, and shall have linen breeches upon their loins; they shall not gird themselves with any thing that causeth sweat.
19 And when they go forth into the utter court, even into the utter court to the people, they shall put off their garments wherein they ministered, and lay them in the holy chambers, and they shall put on other garments; and they shall not sanctify the people with their garments.
20 Neither shall they shave their heads, nor suffer their locks to grow long; they shall only poll their heads.
21 Neither shall any priest drink wine, when they enter into the inner court.
22 Neither shall they take for their wives a widow, nor her that is put away: but they shall take maidens of the seed of the house of Israel, or a widow that had a priest before.
23 And they shall teach my people the difference between the holy and profane, and cause them to discern between the unclean and the clean.
24 And in controversy they shall stand in judgment; and they shall judge it according to my judgments: and they shall keep my laws and my statutes in all mine assemblies; and they shall hallow my sabbaths.
25 And they shall come at no dead person to defile themselves: but for father, or for mother, or for son, or for daughter, for brother, or for sister that hath had no husband, they may defile themselves.
26 And after he is cleansed, they shall reckon unto him seven days.
27 And in the day that he goeth into the sanctuary, unto the inner court, to minister in the sanctuary, he shall offer his sin offering, saith the Lord God.
28 And it shall be unto them for an inheritance: I am their inheritance: and ye shall give them no possession in Israel: I am their possession.
29 They shall eat the meat offering, and the sin offering, and the trespass offering; and every dedicated thing in Israel shall be theirs.
30 And the first of all the firstfruits of all things, and every oblation of all, of every sort of your oblations, shall be the priest's: ye shall also give unto the priest the first of your dough, that he may cause the blessing to rest in thine house.
31 The priests shall not eat of any thing that is dead of itself, or torn, whether it be fowl or beast.
KJV

Ezekiel 45:8-25
8 In the land shall be his possession in Israel: and my princes shall no more oppress my people; and the rest of the land shall they give to the house of Israel according to their tribes.
9 Thus saith the Lord God; Let it suffice you, O princes of Israel: remove violence and spoil, and execute judgment and justice, take away your exactions from my people, saith the Lord God.
10 Ye shall have just balances, and a just ephah, and a just bath.
11 The ephah and the bath shall be of one measure, that the bath may contain the tenth part of an homer, and the ephah the tenth part of an homer: the measure thereof shall be after the homer.
12 And the shekel shall be twenty gerahs: twenty shekels, five and twenty shekels, fifteen shekels, shall be your manneh.
13 This is the oblation that ye shall offer; the sixth part of an ephah of an homer of wheat, and ye shall give the sixth part of an ephah of an homer of barley:
14 Concerning the ordinance of oil, the bath of oil, ye shall offer the tenth part of a bath out of the cor, which is an homer of ten baths; for ten baths are an homer:
15 And one lamb out of the flock, out of two hundred, out of the fat pastures of Israel; for a meat offering, and for a burnt offering, and for peace offerings, to make reconciliation for them, saith the Lord God.
16 All the people of the land shall give this oblation for the prince in Israel.
17 And it shall be the prince's part to give burnt offerings, and meat offerings, and drink offerings, in the feasts, and in the new moons, and in the sabbaths, in all solemnities of the house of Israel: he shall prepare the sin offering, and the meat offering, and the burnt offering, and the peace offerings, to make reconciliation for the house of Israel.
18 Thus saith the Lord God; In the first month, in the first day of the month, thou shalt take a young bullock without blemish, and cleanse the sanctuary:
19 And the priest shall take of the blood of the sin offering, and put it upon the posts of the house, and upon the four corners of the settle of the altar, and upon the posts of the gate of the inner court.
20 And so thou shalt do the seventh day of the month for every one that erreth, and for him that is simple: so shall ye reconcile the house.
21 In the first month, in the fourteenth day of the month, ye shall have the passover, a feast of seven days; unleavened bread shall be eaten.
22 And upon that day shall the prince prepare for himself and for all the people of the land a bullock for a sin offering.
23 And seven days of the feast he shall prepare a burnt offering to the Lord, seven bullocks and seven rams without blemish daily the seven days; and a kid of the goats daily for a sin offering.
24 And he shall prepare a meat offering of an ephah for a bullock, and an ephah for a ram, and an hin of oil for an ephah.
25 In the seventh month, in the fifteenth day of the month, shall he do the like in the feast of the seven days, according to the sin offering, according to the burnt offering, and according to the meat offering, and according to the oil.
KJV

Ezekiel 47:8-12
8 Then said he unto me, These waters issue out toward the east country, and go down into the desert, and go into the sea: which being brought forth into the sea, the waters shall be healed.
9 And it shall come to pass, that every thing that liveth, which moveth, whithersoever the rivers shall come, shall live: and there shall be a very great multitude of fish, because these waters shall come thither: for they shall be healed; and every thing shall live whither the river cometh.
10 And it shall come to pass, that the fishers shall stand upon it from En-gedi even unto En-eglaim; they shall be a place to spread forth nets; their fish shall be according to their kinds, as the fish of the great sea, exceeding many.
11 But the miry places thereof and the marishes thereof shall not be healed; they shall be given to salt.
12 And by the river upon the bank thereof, on this side and on that side, shall grow all trees for meat, whose leaf shall not fade, neither shall the fruit thereof be consumed: it shall bring forth new fruit according to his months, because their waters they issued out of the sanctuary: and the fruit thereof shall be for meat, and the leaf thereof for medicine.
KJV

Micah 4:1-4
1 But in the last days it shall come to pass, that the mountain of the house of the Lord shall be established in the top of the mountains, and it shall be exalted above the hills; and people shall flow unto it.
2 And many nations shall come, and say, Come, and let us go up to the mountain of the Lord, and to the house of the God of Jacob; and he will teach us of his ways, and we will walk in his paths: for the law shall go forth of Zion, and the word of the Lord from Jerusalem.
3 And he shall judge among many people, and rebuke strong nations afar off; and they shall beat their swords into plowshares, and their spears into pruninghooks: nation shall not lift up a sword against nation, neither shall they learn war any more.
4 But they shall sit every man under his vine and under his fig tree; and none shall make them afraid: for the mouth of the Lord of hosts hath spoken it.
KJV

Perhaps, things aren't going to be as different as you envision.

 

[Marcus O'Reillius]

Those are all Millennium passages for the Jews.

What you're looking for is a passage with us in immortal and imperishable bodies eating.

Jesus said it: Mt 8:11 I say to you that many will come from the east and the west, and will take their places at the feast with Abraham, Isaac and Jacob in the kingdom of heaven.

 

[Trekson]

Hi Retro, Marcus is right. Those are all for the living inhabitants of the millennium, not for us immortals. I never said we wouldn't eat or drink. I said we won't NEED to.

 

[Retrobyter]

Shalom, to the both of you, Trekson and Marcus.

Nonsense. Let me ask you a simple question: Will those who are ORIGINALLY "dead in Christ" be resurrected with immortal, incorruptible bodies or not? Y'know, guys like Avraham, David, and Yechezk'el who constitute the ORIGINAL "dead in Christ" or the "dead in the Messiah?" Will they be resurrected for the Millennium? (Forget the rhetoric of any one eschatological position and check with the Scriptures before you answer!) Also, you're forgetting that SOME of these Scriptures have an eternal aspect in view! The eternal state is NOT that far removed from the Millennium!

For instance, who reigns in the Millennium? The Messiah does, right? Do you remember the words of the angel Gavri'el to Miryam (Mary)?

Luke 1:30-33
30 And the angel said unto her, Fear not, Mary: for thou hast found favour with God.
31 And, behold, thou shalt conceive in thy womb, and bring forth a son, and shalt call his name JESUS.
32 He shall be great, and shall be called the Son of the Highest: and the Lord God shall give unto him the throne of his father David:
33 And he shall reign over the house of Jacob for ever; and of his kingdom there shall be no end.
KJV

It's a fallacy to use the term "Millennial Kingdom" or the phrase "Christ shall reign for a thousand years." He shall reign FAR longer than that!

What is it that makes the "Millennium" the "Millennium?" Is it the "reign of Christ?" OR, is it something else? like, ... the incarceration of haSatan (Hebrew for "the Enemy") in the bottomless pit, for instance? What is it that defines the "Millennium?"

Revelation 20:1-8
1 And I saw an angel come down from heaven, having the key of the bottomless pit and a great chain in his hand.
2 And he laid hold on the dragon, that old serpent, which is the Devil, and Satan, and bound him a thousand years,
3 And cast him into the bottomless pit, and shut him up, and set a seal upon him, that he should deceive the nations no more, till the thousand years should be fulfilled: and after that he must be loosed a little season.
4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.
5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.
6 Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.
7 And when the thousand years are expired, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison,
8 And shall go out to deceive the nations which are in the four quarters of the earth, Gog and Magog, to gather them together to battle: the number of whom is as the sand of the sea.
KJV

While the text also says, "they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years," and "they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years," it does NOT say that that is all the time that CHRIST (or the MESSIAH) reigns! In fact, we can also find in Revelation 22:5,

Revelation 22:5
5 And there shall be no night there; and they need no candle, neither light of the sun; for the Lord God giveth them light: and they shall reign for ever and ever.
KJV

Thus, there is little difference between the Millennium and the Eternal State that follows. The Global Fire that is associated with the Great White Throne Judgment and, according to 1 Corinthians 15:20-28, the submitting of the Son to the Father's reign are the ONLY things that separate the two periods.

The thing that is VERY IMPORTANT to remember (or learn for the first time) is that there is NO DIFFERENCE between saints (holy ones) in the Tanakh (the OT) BEFORE the Messiah suffered, died, and was resurrected and the saints (holy ones) in the B'rit Chadashah (the NT) AFTER the Messiah suffered, died, and was resurrected. BOTH sets of saints were justified by God through faith, by His grace, and by blood! The only difference there is the perspective on the Messiah's shed blood in time. Saints in the Tanakh looked forward to the Messiah coming and suffering for His people while saints in the B'rit Chadashah looked backward to the Messiah's coming.

C'mon! Wouldn't you think that you have something in common with David?! Wouldn't you like to meet him instead of waiting around for him after a THOUSAND years?! IT'S LUDICROUS to think that we have any greater status than our Tanakh counterparts! It's ABSURD to think that our resurrection is any different than their resurrection! We will meet them in the Millennium, and we will reign along side of them then and after the Millennium, as well!

 

[n2thelight]

II Thessalonians 2:1 "Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him,"

II Thessalonians 2:2 "That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand."


II Thessalonians 2:3 "Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;"

What Day,and when do we gather?

The Day of Christ and we will not gather,rapture if you must,until after,the man of sin is revealed

Matthew 24:3 "And as He sat upon the mount of Olives the disciples came unto Him privately, saying, "Tell us, when shall these things be and what shall be the sign of thy coming, and of the end of the world?"

Christ in this chapter gives us all the signs to look for,until He returns...Nowhere is there a rapture .....

He tells us exactly when He will return,to gather us,as Paul says in Thess

Matthew 24:21 "For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be."

This is the tribulation of satan,and it's all about deception,the first thing Christ warned us about,as well as Paul

Matthew 24:4 "And Jesus answered and said unto them, "Take heed that no man deceive you."

II Thessalonians 2:3 "Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come [it will not be], except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition

Matthew 24:15 "When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place (whoso readeth, let him understand

"

The "abomination" is when Satan stands in Jerusalem, and proclaims that he is God, and the world believes it. The "desolation" is an incorrect translation into the English, which should read "desolator", and Satan is the desolator that will make the claim that he is God, the true Christ. "Desolation" is a condition, in the Hebrew manuscripts it is written, "On the wings of the desolator," this is not a condition, but a entity, a person. It is through this individual, Satan that the abomination shall come from. It is the desolator [Satan] that shall cause all but the sealed of God, to become desolate, or deceived.

Again same thing Paul says

II Thessalonians 2:4 "Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God."

Matthew 24:24 "For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect."

As one should see,the Elect are still here on earth,not raptured....Now how are the Elect here without the rest of the Church?

Matthew 24:26 "Wherefore if they shall say unto you, 'Behold, He is in the desert;' go not forth: 'Behold, He is in the secret chambers;' believe it not."

If someone has to tell you Christ has come believe it not,as there will be no doubt about it

Matthew 24:27 "For as the lightning cometh our to the east, and shineth even unto the west; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be."

Matthew 24:29 "Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not have her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:"

When?

Matthew 24:30 "And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory."


What part of after the trib rapturist don't get is beyond me!!!!!!!

 

[Ezekiel 13:20]

If it were not pre-trib then Christ comes not as a thief
If it were not pre-trib then it does not come as in the times of Noah
If it were not pre-trib then it does not come as in the times of Lot
If it were not pre-trib then there is no use being ready for it
If it were not pre-trib then it does not come as in times we think not
If it were not pre-trib then two will not be in the field and the one taken
If it were not pre-trib then two will not be at the wheel grinding and the one taken
If it were not pre-trib then it does not come as in the times of Noah

I heard John MacArthur say that if the rapture were not pre-trib then it would be a very quick trip up then to come back and reign with Christ.

John MacArthur is a fake,he says you can take the mark of the beast and still be saved. There is no pre-trib rapture!

 

[Trekson]

Hi Retro, Some interesting points indeed. Your words: "Will they be resurrected for the Millennium?"

Imo, they were resurrected with Christ. They are enjoying their immortal, incorruptible bodies as we speak and their lot is in heaven, not on earth. I don't believe they would want to come back to stay, however I believe the journey from heaven to earth will only take a "blink of an eye", so I'm sure they will visit earth often. The only one were told of for sure is David, who will sit on the right hand of Jesus.

Your words: "It's a fallacy to use the term "Millennial Kingdom" or the phrase "Christ shall reign for a thousand years." He shall reign FAR longer than that!"

I don't think anyone's implied otherwise, we are in agreement.

Your words: "Thus, there is little difference between the Millennium and the Eternal State that follows. The Global Fire that is associated with the Great White Throne Judgment and, according to 1 Corinthians 15:20-28, the submitting of the Son to the Father's reign are the ONLY things that separate the two periods."

You're right, it is God's Word that uses the time separation. I'll admit I don't understand some of the verses that seem to speak about the time after the GWTJ like Rev. 21:24b & 22:15. It only seems to us that there is little difference but you have to admit, we're not given much to go by, so I'm not going to limit God to only what verses we are given. The only understanding my "imagination" can come up with is that perhaps there will be some from the millennium who will never receive glorified bodies. They will avoid the temptation of satan when he is loosed upon the earth after the millennium and stay true to Christ. Perhaps because they are "saved" (Rev. 21:24) they will be allowed to eat from the trees of life and drink from the river of Life, yet still retain their humanity.

Your words: "The thing that is VERY IMPORTANT to remember (or learn for the first time) is that there is NO DIFFERENCE between saints (holy ones) in the Tanakh (the OT) BEFORE the Messiah suffered, died, and was resurrected and the saints (holy ones) in the B'rit Chadashah (the NT) AFTER the Messiah suffered, died, and was resurrected."

Actually, I do believe there is a difference. Not in their final reward but in the way they got there. I do not believe that Christ's sacrifice was retroactive. The OT saints that receive eternal life got there by obeying God and the law and were of the remnants that God kept throughout the generations. Those Israelites that lived wickedly, outside of the law do NOT get a second chance. They will be eternally damned just like all the unsaved gentiles. The difference is, the OT were saved through the law and the blood sacrifices that "covered" their sins, while NT saints are saved through faith and belief in Christ and acceptance of His sacrificial gift for us.

Your words: "C'mon! Wouldn't you think that you have something in common with David?! Wouldn't you like to meet him instead of waiting around for him after a THOUSAND years?! IT'S LUDICROUS to think that we have any greater status than our Tanakh counterparts! It's ABSURD to think that our resurrection is any different than their resurrection! We will meet them in the Millennium, and we will reign along side of them then and after the Millennium, as well."

I believe that those who have already died have met David and the rest already. You're right, I don't believe our status is greater and when the dead in Christ are resurrected it will be the same as when the OT saints were resurrected. When we are raptured/resurrected we will meet them at that time but our destiny is heaven, not earth. Some may be assigned to rule and reign on earth (a very select few, imo) but certainly not everyone and I believe our destiny in heaven is a "greater" reward than living on earth.