How can the rapture be anything but pre-trib???
- Thread starter rockytopva
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Retrobyter
Well-Known Member
Shalom, Trekson.
Sorry for the delay. Lost my first attempt to answer this post. This is a second attempt to answer post #59.
You said, "Hi Retro, Man, you’re making me do my homework on this one but unfortunately, the more I research, the more I see you’re looking at things the wrong way. First, while I believe any kind of “replacement” theology is wrong, I also believe looking at things at the opposite extreme is equally egregious. Outside of the gospels, the majority of the NT has zero to do with “national” Israel. In fact, the Word, goes out of its way to explain that “in Christ” we are all equal. We “lose” our nationality to become part of “His” nation. Christ came to the Jews first, as promised, (John 4:22 = their opportunity for “national” salvation) but upon their rejection, (their “national” opportunity for salvation ended for all time, the way you view it, with exception of the 144,000 + =, the remnant God decides to allow into the millennium) the whole thing changed and you seem to be unwilling to accept that."
First, allow me to point out a contradiction to your statement, "...I believe any kind of 'replacement' theology is wrong...." You later state:
"And you have to understand that God’s dealings with the nation of Israel were foreshadows of the reality of the church. All the spiritual promises God made to Israel find their fulfillment in the church! The only promise left unfulfilled are the physical land promise which will be fulfilled with the 144,000 +!"
Don't you realize that THAT VERY KIND OF THINKING IS "replacement theology" or "successionism?"
Wikipedia gives this entry:
http://www.gotquestions.org/replacement-theology.html
You said, "Okay, we have a little mystery here. In my bible it says that Rom. 9:28 is from Is. 10:23 but the scriptures are nowhere near to being similar. Any thoughts on that?"
Second, regarding your "little mystery," the "problem" is to be found in OUR UNDERSTANDING of Hebrew and Greek, or rather, the LACK thereof. I don't know what version of the Bible you are using to which you are referring, but here are three such versions:
Here are the two passages broken down word for word:
Romans 9:27-28
27 Esaias also crieth concerning Israel, Though the number of the children of Israel be as the sand of the sea, a remnant shall be saved:
28 For he will finish the work, and cut it short in righteousness: because a short work will the Lord make upon the earth.
KJV
Romans 9:27-28
27 Isaiah cries out concerning Israel:
"Though the number of the Israelites be like the sand by the sea,
only the remnant will be saved.
28 For the Lord will carry out
his sentence on earth with speed and finality."
NIV
Romans 9:27-28
27 But Yesha‘yahu, referring to Isra’el, cries out,
“Even if the number of people in Isra’el is as large
as the number of grains of sand by the sea,
only a remnant will be saved.
28 For Adonai will fulfill his word on the earth
with certainty and without delay.”
CJB
Go back to the Greek:
Pros Romaious 9:27-28
27 Eesaias de krazei huper tou Israeel, “Ean ee ho arithmos toon huioon Israeel hoos hee ammos tees thalassees, to hupoleimma sootheesetai;
28 logon gar sunteloon kai suntemnoon [en dikaiosunee, hoti logon suntetmeemenon] poieesei kurios epi tees gees.”
The Greek New Testament (UBS)
27 Eesaias = 27 Yesha`yahu/Isaiah
de = but
krazei = croaked
huper = upon/over
tou = the
Israeel, = Israa’eel/Isra’el,
“Ean = “In-case-that/Provided/Though
ee = might-be
ho = the
arithmos = number
toon = of-the
huioon = sons/children
Israeel = of-Yisraa’eel/Isra’el
hoos = like/as
hee = the
ammos = grains-of-sand
tees = of-the
thalassees, = sea,
to = the
hupoleimma = remainder-under
sootheesetai; = shall-be-rescued/delivered;
28 logon = 28 a-word/topic/subject
gar = for
sunteloon = he-will-complete-entirely
kai = and
suntemnoon = he-will-contract-by-cutting
[en = [in
dikaiosunee, = equity/righteousness/justice,
hoti = so-that/because
logon = a-word/topic/subject
suntetmeemenon] = contracted-by-cutting/concise]
poieesei = will-make
kurios = Lord/LORD
epi = upon/above
tees = the
gees.” = earth/land.”
Isaiah 10:22-23
22 For though thy people Israel be as the sand of the sea, yet a remnant of them shall return: the consumption decreed shall overflow with righteousness.
23 For the Lord GOD of hosts shall make a consumption, even determined, in the midst of all the land.
KJV
Isaiah 10:22-23
22 Though your people, O Israel, be like the sand by the sea,
only a remnant will return.
Destruction has been decreed,
overwhelming and righteous.
23 The Lord, the Lord Almighty, will carry out
the destruction decreed upon the whole land.
NIV
Isaiah 10:22-23
22 For, although your people, Isra’el,
are like the sand of the sea,
only a remnant of them will return.
Destruction is decreed, overflowing with justice.
23 Adonai Elohim-Tzva’ot
will bring about this decreed destruction
throughout all the land.
CJB
Now, go back to the Hebrew:
Yesha`yahu 10:22-23
22 Kiy im yihyeh `amkhaa Yisraa’eel kchowl hayaam sh’aar yaashuwV bow kilaayown chaaruwts showTeef tsdaaqaah:
23 Kiy kaalaah v-necheraatsaah Adonaay YHWH tsVaa’owt `oseh b-qereV kaal haa’aarets:
JPS Hebrew-English TANAKH
22 Kiy = 22 For
im = though
yihyeh = exists
`amkhaa = thy/your(singular)-people
Yisraa’eel = Isra’el
kchowl = like-grains-of-sand
hayaam = of-the-sea
sh’aar = a-remnant
yaashuwV = shall-return
bow = of-them
kilaayown = a-consumption/completion
chaaruwts = decreed
showTeef = shall-overflow-with
tsdaaqaah: = righteousness/justice:
23 Kiy = 23 For
kaalaah = a-consumption/completion
v-necheraatsaah = and-a-wounding
Adonaay = Lord/Master
YHWH = YaHuWH/the-LORD/GOD
tsVaa’owt = of-hosts/armies
`oseh = shall-make/do
b-qereV = in-middle
kaal = of-all
haa’aarets: = the-land:
So, in the final analysis, the two translations compare thusly:
(Greek
27 Yesha`yahu/Isaiah but croaked upon/over the Israa’eel/Isra’el,
“In-case-that/Provided/Though might-be the number of-the sons/children of-Yisraa’eel/Isra’el like/as the grains-of-sand of-the sea, the remainder-under shall-be-rescued/delivered;
28 a-word/topic/subject for he-will-complete-entirely and he-will-contract-by-cutting [in equity/righteousness/justice, so-that/because a-word/topic/subject contracted-by-cutting/concise] will-make Lord/LORD upon/above the earth/land.”
(Hebrew
22 For though exists thy/your(singular)-people Isra’el like-grains-of-sand of-the-sea a-remnant shall-return of-them a-consumption/completion decreed shall-overflow-with righteousness/justice:
23 For a-consumption/completion and-a-wounding Lord/Master YaHuWH/the-LORD/GOD of-hosts/armies shall-make/do in-middle of-all the-earth/land:
The parts that we are not getting are in the subtle nuances of the definitions of the words in these two languages that have not translated well into the English. We get the GIST of what is going on in both of these passages, but the trio of languages will fill out the details. To the Hebrew (Aramaic) speaker who understood Greek, the two passages are close enough to be synonymous.
Notice, however, that ALL THREE of the English versions have "LAND" in the Isaiah passage but have "EARTH" in the Romans passage! Don't you find that enlightening? REMEMBER THIS: The word "erets" in Hebrew is EXACTLY the equivalent to the Greek word "gee," spelled "gamma-eta" and pronounced "gay!" Also remember that they knew practically NOTHING about the sphere or globe that we call the "earth!" When they used these words, they were talking about their own national territory - the "LAND!" Furthermore, when the OT uses the word "erets," 99% of the time it refers to HA'ARETS YISRAA'EEL, THE LAND OF ISRA'EL!
Now, what does THAT say about other NT passages that were translated from the Hebrew prophecies using the Greek word "gee?"
Your words: "Baloney! 'Salvation' is just a word that means either 'delivered' or 'caused to be delivered.' Examples: Acts 16:17 – 'The same followed Paul and us, and cried, saying, These men are the servants of the most high God, which shew unto us the way of salvation.'
2 Tim. 2:10 – 'Therefore I endure all things for the elect's sakes, that they may also obtain the salvation which is in Christ Jesus with eternal glory.'
Yes, Christians are indeed saved. We are 'saved' from eternal damnation, we are 'saved' from an unhappy, self-involved life, we are saved from the 'wages of sin is death,' we are saved unto eternal life. Saved = being born again! Upon the act of being 'born again' or redeemed, God sees us as being 'justified' through the blood of His Son."
Ironically, the verses you've chosen to use here are two of the VERY verses that are susceptible to a different point of view! Thus, they do NOT solely support your point of view, despite your argument!
Now, allow a different point of view for a moment: Acts 16:17 - "The same followed Paul and us closely, and cried, saying, 'These men are the slaves of the Highest God, (slaves) who bring down a message about the road of rescue.'"
2 Timothy 2:10 - "Therefore I undergo all things for the chosen ones' sakes, that they may also acquire the rescue which is in the Messiah Yeshua` with eternal brightness!"
These verses have NOTHING in common with the current definition of "salvation," i.e. the justification of an individual! They are about the Messiah's main role at the moment He returns: RESCUE! However, I will acquiesce to the concept of being rescued from more than just Isra'el's enemies at the time of Yeshua`s return. But, when it comes to prophecy, that term is more often than not restricted to the Return of Yeshua` and His zeal for His people and the pouring out of the Wrath of God, His Father, on their enemies!
Your words: "And you have to understand that God’s dealings with the nation of Israel were foreshadows of the reality of the church. All the spiritual promises God made to Israel find their fulfillment in the church! The only promise left unfulfilled are the physical land promise which will be fulfilled with the 144,000 +!"
I've already mentioned the "replacement theology" that is found in such an attitude, not to mention the anti-Semitism that is often associated with such a position, but Isra'el is NOT permanently taken out of the way! They are only TEMPORARILY "SHELVED" until they can say, "Baruwkh haba' b-shem YHWH," which was translated as "Blessed is he that cometh in the name of the LORD." The phrase in Hebrew, however, means "Welcome, Comer in the authority of YAH!" (Matthew 23:38.) They will therefore recognize and accept Him as the very Messiah of prophecy! Something the Gentiles, who originally knew their Jewish roots, have forgotten A VERY LONG TIME ago!
Your words: "This following is a fine example of how you unwittingly twist things around to the Jewish viewpoint."
It's not a "twisting" of God's Word; it's an "UNTWISTING" of the centuries of twisting that Gentile "Christians" have done to the Scriptures! I don't have to "read into" the Scriptures a "Jewish viewpoint"; the Scriptures are JAM-PACKED with them! One would have to CUT OUT of the Scriptures the words about God's People, Isra'el, as the allegorists have done for centuries!
Your words: "I agree that Paul knew the context and the whole point was to REJECT the idea of 'national' salvation. You need to read the previous verse to get the context of Rom. 10:13. Rom. 10:12 – 'For there is no difference between the Jew and the Greek: for the same Lord over all is rich unto all that call upon him.' The point that Paul is making is that 'whosoever' now includes the Gentiles and that is the fulfillment of the spiritual promise of Joel 2. Yes, there are some physical promises left. Joel 2:30-32 is the spiritual promise fulfilled in Christ and yes I agree that Joel 3:1-2 is a depiction of the sheep and goat judgment of Matt. 25 as the word 'plead' means judgment and a pronouncement of sentencing.
...
Your conclusion (about Romans 10:13) is wrong because you [are] reading into the spiritual aspects, things of the physical which DON’T BELONG in this context. There are two completely different promises in the Joel passage you quoted. The beginning of Cp. 3 has moved on from the point made at the end of Cp. 2. (One of the rare cases, imo, which the translators got right as to dividing subject matter.)"
Oh, REALLY?! Then, why does chapter 2 specifically mention Mount Tsiown (Zion) and Yerushalayim (Jerusalem)? Well, I'm glad that at least you recognize the simple truth of Yo'el's prophecy in 3:1-2; however, you MUST understand that the original Scriptures had absolutely NO break between what we call "chapter 2" and "chapter 3!" They are ALL ONE PROPHECY!
MY! How I HATE that misused, abused, twisted, knurled, mangled word "SPIRITUAL!" There is absolutely NO Scriptural passage that uses this word in the way that allegorists use it!!! To the contrary, if one would simply study how the word is used in 1 Corinthians 15 and how it is contrasted with the word "natural" in the original language of Greek, one might get a glimmer of the truth!
The word translated as "spiritual" is "pneumatikos." It's an adjective form of "pneuma," meaning "breath." It's often translated "spirit."
The word translated as "natural" is "psuchikos." It's an adjective form of "psuchee," meaning "a breather" or "one who breathes." It's often translated "soul."
The word "pneumatikos" is NEVER used as you're trying to use it!
(I will deal with the rest later. Gotta go to work in the morning.)
Sorry for the delay. Lost my first attempt to answer this post. This is a second attempt to answer post #59.
You said, "Hi Retro, Man, you’re making me do my homework on this one but unfortunately, the more I research, the more I see you’re looking at things the wrong way. First, while I believe any kind of “replacement” theology is wrong, I also believe looking at things at the opposite extreme is equally egregious. Outside of the gospels, the majority of the NT has zero to do with “national” Israel. In fact, the Word, goes out of its way to explain that “in Christ” we are all equal. We “lose” our nationality to become part of “His” nation. Christ came to the Jews first, as promised, (John 4:22 = their opportunity for “national” salvation) but upon their rejection, (their “national” opportunity for salvation ended for all time, the way you view it, with exception of the 144,000 + =, the remnant God decides to allow into the millennium) the whole thing changed and you seem to be unwilling to accept that."
First, allow me to point out a contradiction to your statement, "...I believe any kind of 'replacement' theology is wrong...." You later state:
"And you have to understand that God’s dealings with the nation of Israel were foreshadows of the reality of the church. All the spiritual promises God made to Israel find their fulfillment in the church! The only promise left unfulfilled are the physical land promise which will be fulfilled with the 144,000 +!"
Don't you realize that THAT VERY KIND OF THINKING IS "replacement theology" or "successionism?"
Wikipedia gives this entry:
And, here's an article from GotQuestions.org and another from
http://www.gotquestions.org/replacement-theology.html
You said, "Okay, we have a little mystery here. In my bible it says that Rom. 9:28 is from Is. 10:23 but the scriptures are nowhere near to being similar. Any thoughts on that?"
Second, regarding your "little mystery," the "problem" is to be found in OUR UNDERSTANDING of Hebrew and Greek, or rather, the LACK thereof. I don't know what version of the Bible you are using to which you are referring, but here are three such versions:
Here are the two passages broken down word for word:
Romans 9:27-28
27 Esaias also crieth concerning Israel, Though the number of the children of Israel be as the sand of the sea, a remnant shall be saved:
28 For he will finish the work, and cut it short in righteousness: because a short work will the Lord make upon the earth.
KJV
Romans 9:27-28
27 Isaiah cries out concerning Israel:
"Though the number of the Israelites be like the sand by the sea,
only the remnant will be saved.
28 For the Lord will carry out
his sentence on earth with speed and finality."
NIV
Romans 9:27-28
27 But Yesha‘yahu, referring to Isra’el, cries out,
“Even if the number of people in Isra’el is as large
as the number of grains of sand by the sea,
only a remnant will be saved.
28 For Adonai will fulfill his word on the earth
with certainty and without delay.”
CJB
Go back to the Greek:
Pros Romaious 9:27-28
27 Eesaias de krazei huper tou Israeel, “Ean ee ho arithmos toon huioon Israeel hoos hee ammos tees thalassees, to hupoleimma sootheesetai;
28 logon gar sunteloon kai suntemnoon [en dikaiosunee, hoti logon suntetmeemenon] poieesei kurios epi tees gees.”
The Greek New Testament (UBS)
27 Eesaias = 27 Yesha`yahu/Isaiah
de = but
krazei = croaked
huper = upon/over
tou = the
Israeel, = Israa’eel/Isra’el,
“Ean = “In-case-that/Provided/Though
ee = might-be
ho = the
arithmos = number
toon = of-the
huioon = sons/children
Israeel = of-Yisraa’eel/Isra’el
hoos = like/as
hee = the
ammos = grains-of-sand
tees = of-the
thalassees, = sea,
to = the
hupoleimma = remainder-under
sootheesetai; = shall-be-rescued/delivered;
28 logon = 28 a-word/topic/subject
gar = for
sunteloon = he-will-complete-entirely
kai = and
suntemnoon = he-will-contract-by-cutting
[en = [in
dikaiosunee, = equity/righteousness/justice,
hoti = so-that/because
logon = a-word/topic/subject
suntetmeemenon] = contracted-by-cutting/concise]
poieesei = will-make
kurios = Lord/LORD
epi = upon/above
tees = the
gees.” = earth/land.”
Isaiah 10:22-23
22 For though thy people Israel be as the sand of the sea, yet a remnant of them shall return: the consumption decreed shall overflow with righteousness.
23 For the Lord GOD of hosts shall make a consumption, even determined, in the midst of all the land.
KJV
Isaiah 10:22-23
22 Though your people, O Israel, be like the sand by the sea,
only a remnant will return.
Destruction has been decreed,
overwhelming and righteous.
23 The Lord, the Lord Almighty, will carry out
the destruction decreed upon the whole land.
NIV
Isaiah 10:22-23
22 For, although your people, Isra’el,
are like the sand of the sea,
only a remnant of them will return.
Destruction is decreed, overflowing with justice.
23 Adonai Elohim-Tzva’ot
will bring about this decreed destruction
throughout all the land.
CJB
Now, go back to the Hebrew:
Yesha`yahu 10:22-23
22 Kiy im yihyeh `amkhaa Yisraa’eel kchowl hayaam sh’aar yaashuwV bow kilaayown chaaruwts showTeef tsdaaqaah:
23 Kiy kaalaah v-necheraatsaah Adonaay YHWH tsVaa’owt `oseh b-qereV kaal haa’aarets:
JPS Hebrew-English TANAKH
22 Kiy = 22 For
im = though
yihyeh = exists
`amkhaa = thy/your(singular)-people
Yisraa’eel = Isra’el
kchowl = like-grains-of-sand
hayaam = of-the-sea
sh’aar = a-remnant
yaashuwV = shall-return
bow = of-them
kilaayown = a-consumption/completion
chaaruwts = decreed
showTeef = shall-overflow-with
tsdaaqaah: = righteousness/justice:
23 Kiy = 23 For
kaalaah = a-consumption/completion
v-necheraatsaah = and-a-wounding
Adonaay = Lord/Master
YHWH = YaHuWH/the-LORD/GOD
tsVaa’owt = of-hosts/armies
`oseh = shall-make/do
b-qereV = in-middle
kaal = of-all
haa’aarets: = the-land:
So, in the final analysis, the two translations compare thusly:
(Greek
27 Yesha`yahu/Isaiah but croaked upon/over the Israa’eel/Isra’el,
“In-case-that/Provided/Though might-be the number of-the sons/children of-Yisraa’eel/Isra’el like/as the grains-of-sand of-the sea, the remainder-under shall-be-rescued/delivered;
28 a-word/topic/subject for he-will-complete-entirely and he-will-contract-by-cutting [in equity/righteousness/justice, so-that/because a-word/topic/subject contracted-by-cutting/concise] will-make Lord/LORD upon/above the earth/land.”
(Hebrew
22 For though exists thy/your(singular)-people Isra’el like-grains-of-sand of-the-sea a-remnant shall-return of-them a-consumption/completion decreed shall-overflow-with righteousness/justice:
23 For a-consumption/completion and-a-wounding Lord/Master YaHuWH/the-LORD/GOD of-hosts/armies shall-make/do in-middle of-all the-earth/land:
The parts that we are not getting are in the subtle nuances of the definitions of the words in these two languages that have not translated well into the English. We get the GIST of what is going on in both of these passages, but the trio of languages will fill out the details. To the Hebrew (Aramaic) speaker who understood Greek, the two passages are close enough to be synonymous.
Notice, however, that ALL THREE of the English versions have "LAND" in the Isaiah passage but have "EARTH" in the Romans passage! Don't you find that enlightening? REMEMBER THIS: The word "erets" in Hebrew is EXACTLY the equivalent to the Greek word "gee," spelled "gamma-eta" and pronounced "gay!" Also remember that they knew practically NOTHING about the sphere or globe that we call the "earth!" When they used these words, they were talking about their own national territory - the "LAND!" Furthermore, when the OT uses the word "erets," 99% of the time it refers to HA'ARETS YISRAA'EEL, THE LAND OF ISRA'EL!
Now, what does THAT say about other NT passages that were translated from the Hebrew prophecies using the Greek word "gee?"
Your words: "Baloney! 'Salvation' is just a word that means either 'delivered' or 'caused to be delivered.' Examples: Acts 16:17 – 'The same followed Paul and us, and cried, saying, These men are the servants of the most high God, which shew unto us the way of salvation.'
2 Tim. 2:10 – 'Therefore I endure all things for the elect's sakes, that they may also obtain the salvation which is in Christ Jesus with eternal glory.'
Yes, Christians are indeed saved. We are 'saved' from eternal damnation, we are 'saved' from an unhappy, self-involved life, we are saved from the 'wages of sin is death,' we are saved unto eternal life. Saved = being born again! Upon the act of being 'born again' or redeemed, God sees us as being 'justified' through the blood of His Son."
Ironically, the verses you've chosen to use here are two of the VERY verses that are susceptible to a different point of view! Thus, they do NOT solely support your point of view, despite your argument!
Now, allow a different point of view for a moment: Acts 16:17 - "The same followed Paul and us closely, and cried, saying, 'These men are the slaves of the Highest God, (slaves) who bring down a message about the road of rescue.'"
2 Timothy 2:10 - "Therefore I undergo all things for the chosen ones' sakes, that they may also acquire the rescue which is in the Messiah Yeshua` with eternal brightness!"
These verses have NOTHING in common with the current definition of "salvation," i.e. the justification of an individual! They are about the Messiah's main role at the moment He returns: RESCUE! However, I will acquiesce to the concept of being rescued from more than just Isra'el's enemies at the time of Yeshua`s return. But, when it comes to prophecy, that term is more often than not restricted to the Return of Yeshua` and His zeal for His people and the pouring out of the Wrath of God, His Father, on their enemies!
Your words: "And you have to understand that God’s dealings with the nation of Israel were foreshadows of the reality of the church. All the spiritual promises God made to Israel find their fulfillment in the church! The only promise left unfulfilled are the physical land promise which will be fulfilled with the 144,000 +!"
I've already mentioned the "replacement theology" that is found in such an attitude, not to mention the anti-Semitism that is often associated with such a position, but Isra'el is NOT permanently taken out of the way! They are only TEMPORARILY "SHELVED" until they can say, "Baruwkh haba' b-shem YHWH," which was translated as "Blessed is he that cometh in the name of the LORD." The phrase in Hebrew, however, means "Welcome, Comer in the authority of YAH!" (Matthew 23:38.) They will therefore recognize and accept Him as the very Messiah of prophecy! Something the Gentiles, who originally knew their Jewish roots, have forgotten A VERY LONG TIME ago!
Your words: "This following is a fine example of how you unwittingly twist things around to the Jewish viewpoint."
It's not a "twisting" of God's Word; it's an "UNTWISTING" of the centuries of twisting that Gentile "Christians" have done to the Scriptures! I don't have to "read into" the Scriptures a "Jewish viewpoint"; the Scriptures are JAM-PACKED with them! One would have to CUT OUT of the Scriptures the words about God's People, Isra'el, as the allegorists have done for centuries!
Your words: "I agree that Paul knew the context and the whole point was to REJECT the idea of 'national' salvation. You need to read the previous verse to get the context of Rom. 10:13. Rom. 10:12 – 'For there is no difference between the Jew and the Greek: for the same Lord over all is rich unto all that call upon him.' The point that Paul is making is that 'whosoever' now includes the Gentiles and that is the fulfillment of the spiritual promise of Joel 2. Yes, there are some physical promises left. Joel 2:30-32 is the spiritual promise fulfilled in Christ and yes I agree that Joel 3:1-2 is a depiction of the sheep and goat judgment of Matt. 25 as the word 'plead' means judgment and a pronouncement of sentencing.
...
Your conclusion (about Romans 10:13) is wrong because you [are] reading into the spiritual aspects, things of the physical which DON’T BELONG in this context. There are two completely different promises in the Joel passage you quoted. The beginning of Cp. 3 has moved on from the point made at the end of Cp. 2. (One of the rare cases, imo, which the translators got right as to dividing subject matter.)"
Oh, REALLY?! Then, why does chapter 2 specifically mention Mount Tsiown (Zion) and Yerushalayim (Jerusalem)? Well, I'm glad that at least you recognize the simple truth of Yo'el's prophecy in 3:1-2; however, you MUST understand that the original Scriptures had absolutely NO break between what we call "chapter 2" and "chapter 3!" They are ALL ONE PROPHECY!
MY! How I HATE that misused, abused, twisted, knurled, mangled word "SPIRITUAL!" There is absolutely NO Scriptural passage that uses this word in the way that allegorists use it!!! To the contrary, if one would simply study how the word is used in 1 Corinthians 15 and how it is contrasted with the word "natural" in the original language of Greek, one might get a glimmer of the truth!
The word translated as "spiritual" is "pneumatikos." It's an adjective form of "pneuma," meaning "breath." It's often translated "spirit."
The word translated as "natural" is "psuchikos." It's an adjective form of "psuchee," meaning "a breather" or "one who breathes." It's often translated "soul."
The word "pneumatikos" is NEVER used as you're trying to use it!
(I will deal with the rest later. Gotta go to work in the morning.)
The word pneuma, is almost always translated as "spirit" (322 times; 91 times as 'Ghost' or ghost; once as 'wind,' once as 'life,' and never as 'breath' or 'breathed'). Given the vast preponderance of the translation of this Greek word into English as "spirit," it is logically translated with the English "spir," as seen in the word "inspiration." The use of the word 'spir," meaning "spirit," lines up perfectly with John 6:63, where Jesus defines his words. He said,
"[T]he words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life."
In other words, the word of God is not just ink on paper, like other books; its words are "spirit." Since the spirit of God is alive, his words are also alive. Consequently John 6:63 concludes that the word of God is "life."
Breath is tangible; the spirit is not tangible. Those who are afraid to call the KJB "inspired" are wrongly focused on the physical character of Strong's or Moulton's erring definition, "breathe"; they know that God did close the canon and stopped the physical sign gifts. But God's "Spirit" is still striving with man, comforting man, and leading man into all truth. God never said the Spirit would not translate the canon; he did provide for this in Acts 2 when "every man heard them speak in his own language" from "every nation under heaven." Although the Greek word pneuma can be seen in secular English as 'pneumonia' and 'pneumatic,' both relating to air, its Biblical usage is exclusively as 'spirit,' never as 'breathe.' Even Hodge, as noted in Augustus Strong's Systematic Theology on p. 198 admitted that 'spirit' is the correct correlative.
Not surprisingly, corrupt new bible versions, such as the NIV, replace "inspiration" with the secular word "breathed," thereby erasing the root 'spir' and its connection to the Spirit of God. The Calvinist produced English Standard Version (ESV) similarly says "breathed out" (yet the word "out" also appears in no Greek texts).
Hi Retro,
Your words: “Sorry for the delay. Lost my first attempt to answer this post. This is a second attempt to answer post #59.”
Don’t you just hate it when that happens! It’s happened to me a few times and I found it absolutely frustrating especially after a more than a few pages were written. I resolved it so that now any post or reply that will be lengthy, I do differently. I’ll copy your post and carry it over to Word, write my responses, edit, than “save it” after every couple of paragraphs. I haven’t “lost” one yet doing it that way.
Your words/observation: “First, allow me to point out a contradiction to your statement, "...I believe any kind of 'replacement' theology is wrong...." You later state: "And you have to understand that God’s dealings with the nation of Israel were foreshadows of the reality of the church. All the spiritual promises God made to Israel find their fulfillment in the church! The only promise left unfulfilled are the physical land promise which will be fulfilled with the 144,000 +!"
Don't you realize that THAT VERY KIND OF THINKING IS "replacement theology" or "successionism?"
No it’s not because for the first decade or so the “church” was primarily made up of born again Israeli’s. So to “Israel” the spiritual promises came.
Your words: “Second, regarding your "little mystery," the "problem" is to be found in OUR UNDERSTANDING of Hebrew and Greek, or rather, the LACK thereof. I don't know what version of the Bible you are using to which you are referring, but here are three such versions:”
I’ll try to break it down a little more clearly from the KJV. I don’t think the problem lies with the Greek. Ok, here is IS.10:22 - 22 “For though thy people Israel be as the sand of the sea, yet a remnant of them shall return: the consumption decreed shall overflow with righteousness.” Now compare that with Rom. 9:27 – “Esaias also crieth concerning Israel, Though the number of the children of Israel be as the sand of the sea, a remnant shall be saved.” They are close enough to be understood. I’m just talking wording here, not context. Now let’s look at the next two. Is.10:23 – “For the Lord GOD of hosts shall make a consumption, even determined, in the midst of all the land.” Compared with Rom. 9:28 – “For he will finish the work, and cut it short in righteousness: because a short work will the Lord make upon the earth.” Unless you blame it on the translators, it doesn’t seem like Paul is saying the same thing. I guess the main difference is how the word “consumption” is used. Vs. 22 is plain destruction while vs. 23 is “complete” destruction. Paul doesn’t even seem to imply “destruction” to the common reader but now that I’m looking at it I can see that is what the term “short work” is implying, but one wouldn’t know that just from reading it.
Your words: “Now, allow a different point of view for a moment: Acts 16:17 - "The same followed Paul and us closely, and cried, saying, 'These men are the slaves of the Highest God, (slaves) who bring down a message about the road of rescue.'" 2 Timothy 2:10 - "Therefore I undergo all things for the chosen ones' sakes, that they may also acquire the rescue which is in the Messiah Yeshua` with eternal brightness!"
I don’t know, in my KJV the word “salvation” is used not the word “rescue”. In fact, according to Strong’s, the word “rescue is never used in the NT. The definition can be “rescued” or ‘safety” but, imo, neither is implying a “national salvation”. In both your verses it is speaking of deliverance from the ‘wages of sin is death” aspect.
Your words: “I've already mentioned the "replacement theology" that is found in such an attitude, not to mention the anti-Semitism that is often associated with such a position, but Isra'el is NOT permanently taken out of the way! They are only TEMPORARILY "SHELVED" until they can say, "Baruwkh haba' b-shem YHWH," which was translated as "Blessed is he that cometh in the name of the LORD." The phrase in Hebrew, however, means "Welcome, Comer in the authority of YAH!" (Matthew 23:38.)
They will therefore recognize and accept Him as the very Messiah of prophecy! Something the Gentiles, who originally knew their Jewish roots, have forgotten A VERY LONG TIME ago!”
Regarding this last sentence, we are in agreement that a future generation will say those words but it is ONLY that future generation this verse is talking about.
Your words: “Oh, REALLY?! Then, why does chapter 2 specifically mention Mount Tsiown (Zion) and Yerushalayim (Jerusalem)? Well, I'm glad that at least you recognize the simple truth of Yo'el's prophecy in 3:1-2; however, you MUST understand that the original Scriptures had absolutely NO break between what we call "chapter 2" and "chapter 3!" They are ALL ONE PROPHECY!
I know you’re smarter than that! Just because the ancient writers didn’t use a literal “break” of their writings does not imply that every OT book is one specific prophecy. Each “prophetic” book had a myriad of different prophecies found within them, sometimes with thousands of years between them within a couple of sentences. However, regarding this specific prophecy found in Joel 2:28-32. Paul says it was fulfilled in the early beginnings of the church. Acts 2:16-21 –“ But this is that which was spoken by the prophet Joel; 17 And it shall come to pass in the last days, saith God, I will pour out of my Spirit upon all flesh: and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, and your young men shall see visions, and your old men shall dream dreams: 18 And on my servants and on my handmaidens I will pour out in those days of my Spirit; and they shall prophesy: 19 And I will shew wonders in heaven above, and signs in the earth beneath; blood, and fire, and vapour of smoke: 20 The sun shall be turned into darkness, and the moon into blood, before the great and notable day of the Lord come: 21 And it shall come to pass, that whosoever shall call on the name of the Lord shall be saved.”
The last line means individually born again, not a national rescue.
Your words: “MY! How I HATE that misused, abused, twisted, knurled, mangled word "SPIRITUAL!" There is absolutely NO Scriptural passage that uses this word in the way that allegorists use it!!! To the contrary, if one would simply study how the word is used in 1 Corinthians 15 and how it is contrasted with the word "natural" in the original language of Greek, one might get a glimmer of the truth!”
The way I use the word “spiritual” has nothing to do with the semantics of the Greek or Hebrew. It is how most modern day believers separate the physical from the non-physical aspects of Christianity. I’ll give you an example: Mark 11:22-24 – “And Jesus answering saith unto them, Have faith in God. 23 For verily I say unto you, That whosoever shall say unto this mountain, Be thou removed, and be thou cast into the sea; and shall not doubt in his heart, but shall believe that those things which he saith shall come to pass; he shall have whatsoever he saith. 24 Therefore I say unto you, What things soever ye desire, when ye pray, believe that ye receive them, and ye shall have them.”
Now how many Christians have you seen lately just tossing around mountains willy-nilly? This obviously isn’t speaking of “physically” removing and casting around mountains. It’s speaking of the “spiritual” aspects of Christianity. How would you define these verses?
1 Cor. 2:13-15 – “Which things also we speak, not in the words which man's wisdom teacheth, but which the Holy Ghost teacheth; comparing spiritual things with spiritual. But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned. 15 But he that is spiritual judgeth all things, yet he himself is judged of no man.”
I don’t think the words “discerned” or “judgeth” are implying that we need to take a breathalyzer test to understand things!
For further understanding of what I mean by “spiritual” promises being fulfilled through the church, I’ll repost an article from a couple of years ago called, “The Problem with Dispensationalism”.
Your words: “Sorry for the delay. Lost my first attempt to answer this post. This is a second attempt to answer post #59.”
Don’t you just hate it when that happens! It’s happened to me a few times and I found it absolutely frustrating especially after a more than a few pages were written. I resolved it so that now any post or reply that will be lengthy, I do differently. I’ll copy your post and carry it over to Word, write my responses, edit, than “save it” after every couple of paragraphs. I haven’t “lost” one yet doing it that way.
Your words/observation: “First, allow me to point out a contradiction to your statement, "...I believe any kind of 'replacement' theology is wrong...." You later state: "And you have to understand that God’s dealings with the nation of Israel were foreshadows of the reality of the church. All the spiritual promises God made to Israel find their fulfillment in the church! The only promise left unfulfilled are the physical land promise which will be fulfilled with the 144,000 +!"
Don't you realize that THAT VERY KIND OF THINKING IS "replacement theology" or "successionism?"
No it’s not because for the first decade or so the “church” was primarily made up of born again Israeli’s. So to “Israel” the spiritual promises came.
Your words: “Second, regarding your "little mystery," the "problem" is to be found in OUR UNDERSTANDING of Hebrew and Greek, or rather, the LACK thereof. I don't know what version of the Bible you are using to which you are referring, but here are three such versions:”
I’ll try to break it down a little more clearly from the KJV. I don’t think the problem lies with the Greek. Ok, here is IS.10:22 - 22 “For though thy people Israel be as the sand of the sea, yet a remnant of them shall return: the consumption decreed shall overflow with righteousness.” Now compare that with Rom. 9:27 – “Esaias also crieth concerning Israel, Though the number of the children of Israel be as the sand of the sea, a remnant shall be saved.” They are close enough to be understood. I’m just talking wording here, not context. Now let’s look at the next two. Is.10:23 – “For the Lord GOD of hosts shall make a consumption, even determined, in the midst of all the land.” Compared with Rom. 9:28 – “For he will finish the work, and cut it short in righteousness: because a short work will the Lord make upon the earth.” Unless you blame it on the translators, it doesn’t seem like Paul is saying the same thing. I guess the main difference is how the word “consumption” is used. Vs. 22 is plain destruction while vs. 23 is “complete” destruction. Paul doesn’t even seem to imply “destruction” to the common reader but now that I’m looking at it I can see that is what the term “short work” is implying, but one wouldn’t know that just from reading it.
Your words: “Now, allow a different point of view for a moment: Acts 16:17 - "The same followed Paul and us closely, and cried, saying, 'These men are the slaves of the Highest God, (slaves) who bring down a message about the road of rescue.'" 2 Timothy 2:10 - "Therefore I undergo all things for the chosen ones' sakes, that they may also acquire the rescue which is in the Messiah Yeshua` with eternal brightness!"
I don’t know, in my KJV the word “salvation” is used not the word “rescue”. In fact, according to Strong’s, the word “rescue is never used in the NT. The definition can be “rescued” or ‘safety” but, imo, neither is implying a “national salvation”. In both your verses it is speaking of deliverance from the ‘wages of sin is death” aspect.
Your words: “I've already mentioned the "replacement theology" that is found in such an attitude, not to mention the anti-Semitism that is often associated with such a position, but Isra'el is NOT permanently taken out of the way! They are only TEMPORARILY "SHELVED" until they can say, "Baruwkh haba' b-shem YHWH," which was translated as "Blessed is he that cometh in the name of the LORD." The phrase in Hebrew, however, means "Welcome, Comer in the authority of YAH!" (Matthew 23:38.)
They will therefore recognize and accept Him as the very Messiah of prophecy! Something the Gentiles, who originally knew their Jewish roots, have forgotten A VERY LONG TIME ago!”
Regarding this last sentence, we are in agreement that a future generation will say those words but it is ONLY that future generation this verse is talking about.
Your words: “Oh, REALLY?! Then, why does chapter 2 specifically mention Mount Tsiown (Zion) and Yerushalayim (Jerusalem)? Well, I'm glad that at least you recognize the simple truth of Yo'el's prophecy in 3:1-2; however, you MUST understand that the original Scriptures had absolutely NO break between what we call "chapter 2" and "chapter 3!" They are ALL ONE PROPHECY!
I know you’re smarter than that! Just because the ancient writers didn’t use a literal “break” of their writings does not imply that every OT book is one specific prophecy. Each “prophetic” book had a myriad of different prophecies found within them, sometimes with thousands of years between them within a couple of sentences. However, regarding this specific prophecy found in Joel 2:28-32. Paul says it was fulfilled in the early beginnings of the church. Acts 2:16-21 –“ But this is that which was spoken by the prophet Joel; 17 And it shall come to pass in the last days, saith God, I will pour out of my Spirit upon all flesh: and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, and your young men shall see visions, and your old men shall dream dreams: 18 And on my servants and on my handmaidens I will pour out in those days of my Spirit; and they shall prophesy: 19 And I will shew wonders in heaven above, and signs in the earth beneath; blood, and fire, and vapour of smoke: 20 The sun shall be turned into darkness, and the moon into blood, before the great and notable day of the Lord come: 21 And it shall come to pass, that whosoever shall call on the name of the Lord shall be saved.”
The last line means individually born again, not a national rescue.
Your words: “MY! How I HATE that misused, abused, twisted, knurled, mangled word "SPIRITUAL!" There is absolutely NO Scriptural passage that uses this word in the way that allegorists use it!!! To the contrary, if one would simply study how the word is used in 1 Corinthians 15 and how it is contrasted with the word "natural" in the original language of Greek, one might get a glimmer of the truth!”
The way I use the word “spiritual” has nothing to do with the semantics of the Greek or Hebrew. It is how most modern day believers separate the physical from the non-physical aspects of Christianity. I’ll give you an example: Mark 11:22-24 – “And Jesus answering saith unto them, Have faith in God. 23 For verily I say unto you, That whosoever shall say unto this mountain, Be thou removed, and be thou cast into the sea; and shall not doubt in his heart, but shall believe that those things which he saith shall come to pass; he shall have whatsoever he saith. 24 Therefore I say unto you, What things soever ye desire, when ye pray, believe that ye receive them, and ye shall have them.”
Now how many Christians have you seen lately just tossing around mountains willy-nilly? This obviously isn’t speaking of “physically” removing and casting around mountains. It’s speaking of the “spiritual” aspects of Christianity. How would you define these verses?
1 Cor. 2:13-15 – “Which things also we speak, not in the words which man's wisdom teacheth, but which the Holy Ghost teacheth; comparing spiritual things with spiritual. But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned. 15 But he that is spiritual judgeth all things, yet he himself is judged of no man.”
I don’t think the words “discerned” or “judgeth” are implying that we need to take a breathalyzer test to understand things!
For further understanding of what I mean by “spiritual” promises being fulfilled through the church, I’ll repost an article from a couple of years ago called, “The Problem with Dispensationalism”.
Retrobyter
Well-Known Member
Shabbat shalom, sojourner4Christ.
in-spire, v., -spired, -spir-ing. ... [1300-50; ME < L inspirare: to breathe upon or into = in- IN + spirare to breathe]
Using the key at the beginning of the dictionary, this means that from 1300 to 1350 A.D., the Latin word inspirare, meaning "to breathe upon or into," was adopted into the Middle English. The Latin word comes from the prefix "in-" meaning "in," and the root word "spirare" meaning "to breathe."
Also, here's the etymology of "spirit" from the same source:
spir-it, n. ... [1200-50; ME (n.) < L spiritus orig., a breathing = spiri-, comb. form repr. spirare to breathe + -tus suffix of v. action]
This all means that from 1200 to 1250 A.D., the Latin word "spiritus," originally meaning "a breathing," was adopted into the Middle English as a noun (instead of a gerund). The Latin word was a combination of "spirare," shortened to just "spiri-" for the combination, and the "-tus" suffix of the verbal action.
Now, which came first as a lingua franca, Latin or Greek? The order (for us) of biblical languages from oldest to youngest is ...
"Hebrew (from Moses to the Captivity) - Aramaic (during the Captivity) - Greek - Latin - Middle English - Modern English." (At least, for these particular words. Other go-between languages might occur for other words.)
NT:4151 pneuma (pnyoo'-mah); from NT:4154; a current of air, i.e. breath (blast) or a breeze; by analogy or figuratively, a spirit, i.e. (human) the rational soul, (by implication) vital principle, mental disposition, etc., or (superhuman) an angel, demon, or (divine) God, Christ's spirit, the Holy Spirit:
KJV - ghost, life, spirit (-ual, -ually), mind. Compare NT:5590.
(Biblesoft's New Exhaustive Strong's Numbers and Concordance with Expanded Greek-Hebrew Dictionary. Copyright © 1994, 2003, 2006 Biblesoft, Inc. and International Bible Translators, Inc.)
And, according to the Englishman's Concordance, it can be found 388 times in the Greek manuscripts of the Received Text, as you indicated.
Sorry. How the word was translated by fallible human beings CANNOT be used to support your "conclusion": "Breath is tangible; the spirit is not tangible." That's simply an assumption on your part. You are ASSUMING that the word "spirit" refers to the intangible or immaterial.
Go back to the Beginning!
B'reeshiyt (Genesis) 2:7
7 Vayiytser YHWH Elohiym et haa’aadaam `aafaar min haa’adaamaah vayipach b’apaayv nishmat chayiym vayhiy haa’aadaam l-nefesh chayaah:
JPS Hebrew-English TANAKH (transliterated)
7 Vayiytser = 7 And-made/formed
YHWH = YHWH/the LORD
Elohiym = God
et = (the next word is the direct object)
haa’aadaam = the-man
`aafaar = of-dust
min = from
haa’adaamaah = the-ground
vayipach = and-breathed
b’apaayv = in-his-nostrils
nishmat = a-puff
chayiym = of-lives
vayhiy = and-became
haa’aadaam = the-man
l-nefesh = to-a-soul
chayaah: = living:
And, while the word for "spirit" in the Tanakh (the OT) is "ruwach," one must also realize that we have these verses as well:
Genesis 7:13-15, 21-22
13 In the selfsame day entered Noah, and Shem, and Ham, and Japheth, the sons of Noah, and Noah's wife, and the three wives of his sons with them, into the ark;
14 They, and every beast after his kind, and all the cattle after their kind, and every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth after his kind, and every fowl after his kind, every bird of every sort.
15 And they went in unto Noah into the ark, two and two of all flesh, wherein is the breath of life.
...
21 And all flesh died that moved upon the earth, both of fowl, and of cattle, and of beast, and of every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth, and every man:
22 All in whose nostrils was the breath of life, of all that was in the dry land, died.
KJV
And, there the word for "breath" is ruwach!
For instance, here is verse 22:
B'reeshiyt 7:22
22 Kol asher nishmat ruwach chayiym b’apaayv mikol asher bechaaraaVaah eetuw:
JPS Hebrew-English TANAKH
22 Kol = 22 All/Every
asher = whose
nishmat = a-puff
ruwach = of-breath
chayiym = of-lives
b’apaayv = in-his-nostrils
mikol = from-all
asher = who
bechaaraaVaah = in-the-dry-(ground)
eetuw: = died:
Furthermore, here we learn that it refers to the LAND ANIMALS as well as to the human beings!
Try not to be too rigid in your opinions that you cannot learn from the discoveries to which you are led by others or make on your own!
You're simply getting the cart before the horse. Here's what the Random House Webster's English Dictionary has to say about the etymology of "inspire":sojourner4Christ said:
in-spire, v., -spired, -spir-ing. ... [1300-50; ME < L inspirare: to breathe upon or into = in- IN + spirare to breathe]
Using the key at the beginning of the dictionary, this means that from 1300 to 1350 A.D., the Latin word inspirare, meaning "to breathe upon or into," was adopted into the Middle English. The Latin word comes from the prefix "in-" meaning "in," and the root word "spirare" meaning "to breathe."
Also, here's the etymology of "spirit" from the same source:
spir-it, n. ... [1200-50; ME (n.) < L spiritus orig., a breathing = spiri-, comb. form repr. spirare to breathe + -tus suffix of v. action]
This all means that from 1200 to 1250 A.D., the Latin word "spiritus," originally meaning "a breathing," was adopted into the Middle English as a noun (instead of a gerund). The Latin word was a combination of "spirare," shortened to just "spiri-" for the combination, and the "-tus" suffix of the verbal action.
Now, which came first as a lingua franca, Latin or Greek? The order (for us) of biblical languages from oldest to youngest is ...
"Hebrew (from Moses to the Captivity) - Aramaic (during the Captivity) - Greek - Latin - Middle English - Modern English." (At least, for these particular words. Other go-between languages might occur for other words.)
NT:4151 pneuma (pnyoo'-mah); from NT:4154; a current of air, i.e. breath (blast) or a breeze; by analogy or figuratively, a spirit, i.e. (human) the rational soul, (by implication) vital principle, mental disposition, etc., or (superhuman) an angel, demon, or (divine) God, Christ's spirit, the Holy Spirit:
KJV - ghost, life, spirit (-ual, -ually), mind. Compare NT:5590.
(Biblesoft's New Exhaustive Strong's Numbers and Concordance with Expanded Greek-Hebrew Dictionary. Copyright © 1994, 2003, 2006 Biblesoft, Inc. and International Bible Translators, Inc.)
And, according to the Englishman's Concordance, it can be found 388 times in the Greek manuscripts of the Received Text, as you indicated.
Sorry. How the word was translated by fallible human beings CANNOT be used to support your "conclusion": "Breath is tangible; the spirit is not tangible." That's simply an assumption on your part. You are ASSUMING that the word "spirit" refers to the intangible or immaterial.
Go back to the Beginning!
B'reeshiyt (Genesis) 2:7
7 Vayiytser YHWH Elohiym et haa’aadaam `aafaar min haa’adaamaah vayipach b’apaayv nishmat chayiym vayhiy haa’aadaam l-nefesh chayaah:
JPS Hebrew-English TANAKH (transliterated)
7 Vayiytser = 7 And-made/formed
YHWH = YHWH/the LORD
Elohiym = God
et = (the next word is the direct object)
haa’aadaam = the-man
`aafaar = of-dust
min = from
haa’adaamaah = the-ground
vayipach = and-breathed
b’apaayv = in-his-nostrils
nishmat = a-puff
chayiym = of-lives
vayhiy = and-became
haa’aadaam = the-man
l-nefesh = to-a-soul
chayaah: = living:
And, while the word for "spirit" in the Tanakh (the OT) is "ruwach," one must also realize that we have these verses as well:
Genesis 7:13-15, 21-22
13 In the selfsame day entered Noah, and Shem, and Ham, and Japheth, the sons of Noah, and Noah's wife, and the three wives of his sons with them, into the ark;
14 They, and every beast after his kind, and all the cattle after their kind, and every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth after his kind, and every fowl after his kind, every bird of every sort.
15 And they went in unto Noah into the ark, two and two of all flesh, wherein is the breath of life.
...
21 And all flesh died that moved upon the earth, both of fowl, and of cattle, and of beast, and of every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth, and every man:
22 All in whose nostrils was the breath of life, of all that was in the dry land, died.
KJV
And, there the word for "breath" is ruwach!
For instance, here is verse 22:
B'reeshiyt 7:22
22 Kol asher nishmat ruwach chayiym b’apaayv mikol asher bechaaraaVaah eetuw:
JPS Hebrew-English TANAKH
22 Kol = 22 All/Every
asher = whose
nishmat = a-puff
ruwach = of-breath
chayiym = of-lives
b’apaayv = in-his-nostrils
mikol = from-all
asher = who
bechaaraaVaah = in-the-dry-(ground)
eetuw: = died:
Furthermore, here we learn that it refers to the LAND ANIMALS as well as to the human beings!
Try not to be too rigid in your opinions that you cannot learn from the discoveries to which you are led by others or make on your own!
There are several problems with your post. We will look at the most obvious first.
As hard as they may try, man cannot separate God’s life-giving Spirit from his breath.
[and]
We do not seek what some man has to say. Rather, as I posted, we let Scripture interpret Scripture.
Sorry. The wise do not seek what some “fallible human beings” have to say. Rather, as I posted, we let Scripture interpret Scripture.
You haven’t disproven what Scripture plainly tells us.
Indeed @‘a puff’ ‘of lives’ -- This “living breath” is what separates Scripture’s definition from the dead breath of man you are promoting..
Once, again, Scripture is clear: mere man cannot provide the breath of life.
As hard as they may try, man cannot separate God’s life-giving Spirit from his breath.
[and]
Again, the key is life -- not breath.
I had posted no “opinions.” I merely read the Scripture as it is written. Your authority fails when tested against The Authority, Scripture itself.
Retrobyter
Well-Known Member
Shabbat shalom, sojourner4Christ.
You've added nothing new and you still don't know what you're talking about. Try again after you've given it some real thought.sojourner4Christ said:
Jesus "beat satan" nearly 2000 years ago. Christ has been given all authority, not some. The kingdoms of the world have not yet come to acknowledge Him and will not until after the final testimony of God is given by the two witnesses (of the book of the Revelation.) But those things which are determined, already are. The rebellion of the world against God and His anointed continues until the return of the Lord in glory, but even this has been allowed by the Lord for His greater glory. The victory is already complete, but not fully manifested until that day when He comes and consumes His enemies with the breath of His mouth. A fire goes before Him.Marcus O'Reillius said:
In our time and in Africa, Asia, the middle east, as well as other lands to a lesser extent, Christians are being martyred by the thousands, but not one of these is really dead. They've been counted worthy of suffering and dying for His name's sake, but they weren't defeated, only promoted to a greater glory in the kingdom of our Lord. Their family and friends suffer a temporary loss, but they have gained what God's grace has provided, a better name for all eternity and a greater love that allowed them to suffer on His behalf the hatred of a fallen humanity.
It may sound strange to speak in "victorious" terms considering what we see happening in the world around us, but we have the Word of God so that we can understand what's happening and know that the redemption of our bodies draws near. The scripture isn't a plan that God is following, its a revelation of what already is determined, though some is yet to be revealed. The just shall live by faith and our faith tells us that everything is complete in Christ. If we only make judgments about what we see, rather than what He has said, faith is absent and we are no better off than the rest of this dying world.
The Lord has overcome the world and so we overcome the world by abiding in Him and trusting in the blood that was shed on our behalf and for our redemption. I'm not a perfect man, far from it by all accounts, but I know that my Savior lives and His righteousness is all that I'll ever need. Whom shall I fear?
With regard to the question posed in the OP, If the Lord had intended to snatch the church out of harms way prior to the Great tribulation, wouldn't He have said so explicitly rather than hide such important news in a few words and phrases scattered about the scripture that have different application in their context.
The only explicit information given about a "rapture" identifies it as following the 1st resurrection, the resurrection of the just. It doesn't make a lot of sense to separate a group of believers as "tribulation saints" that actually die for the sake of their testimony of Christ, yet somehow are not considered "just" while other believers (justified by faith in Christ) never suffered anything greater than a splinter in their butts from a church pew.
I know that grasping these concepts require logic on our part and that "rapture doctrine" is based upon fear rather than faith, but whatever we do which is not of faith is sin, so why do so many preach sin as truth, as though our God is a lover of cowardice and faithlessness? Is the Lord's arm shortened? Is our God unable to save us completely from any calamity through which He demonstrates both His wrath and His grace?
When those people who are in the world look about them at what's going on, their natural response is fear, but it shouldn't be so for us if we know the Lord:
You shall not be afraid of the terror by night, Nor of the arrow that flies by day, Nor of the pestilence that walks in darkness, Nor of the destruction that lays waste at noonday. A thousand may fall at your side, And ten thousand at your right hand; But it shall not come near you. Only with your eyes shall you look, And see the reward of the wicked. Because you have made the Lord, who is my refuge, Even the Most High, your habitation, No evil shall befall you, Nor shall any plague come near your dwelling; For He shall give His angels charge over you, To keep you in all your ways. They shall bear you up in their hands, Lest you dash your foot against a stone. You shall tread upon the lion and the cobra, The young lion and the serpent you shall trample under foot. Psalm 91:5-13
This is the heritage of those that fear Him and call upon His name.
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But I fear, lest by any means, as the serpent beguiled Eve through his subtilty, so your minds should be corrupted from the simplicity that is in Christ. (2 Cor.11:3)
.
Thank you, Lord, for the simplicity that is in Christ.
To be adrift without the inspired word of God is to be awash in the vanities of men.
For God hath not given us the spirit of fear; but of power, and of love, and of a sound mind. (2 Tim. 1:7)
lol There's no need to add some new thing -- it's already been handed to us by the King himself via his inspired word and never via man's smelly breath.
On this, Trekson is correct.
On this, Retrobyter is incorrect -- and on multiple fronts. Thank God the King has not told us we need to get up-to-speed on “our understanding of Hebrew and Greek”!!!
But I fear, lest by any means, as the serpent beguiled Eve through his subtilty, so your minds should be corrupted from the simplicity that is in Christ. (2 Cor.11:3)
Bingo for Trekson. The wanna-be scholars have to place the “blame” somewhere -- lest they lose both their place [status] and their nation [stuff]. (John 11:48)
On this, Trekson is correct.
On this, Trekson is correct.
On this, Trekson is correct.
On this, Trekson is correct.
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Thank you, Lord, for the simplicity that is in Christ.
To be adrift without the inspired word of God is to be awash in the vanities of men.
Amen.
For God hath not given us the spirit of fear; but of power, and of love, and of a sound mind. (2 Tim. 1:7)
JM has said a lot of things over the years, and has on more than one occasion contradicted himself. Recently I heard him say that if anyone watches an R rated movie they can't possibly have a heart fully dedicated to Christ and that he (JM) never saw an R rated movie. In other words, although John preaches salvation (justification) through faith in Christ, he also lifts himself up as a standard of righteousness that others must measure up to in order to prove their devotion to the Lord. What incredibly self righteous hog wash!rockytopva said:
Most of us struggle with self righteousness to some extent because its a fleshly thing (climbing a stairway to heaven), but most of us don't have the kind of loyal audience that MacArthur has. It's nice to have knowledgeable teachers of scripture, scholarly men and women who have put in the time to do in depth research and try to understand the word of God so that they may be better equipped to teach, but every human teacher is fallible and has to contend with an old nature that wars against the new, and where does that war take place except inside the mind?
God will reward each person for those things done in the body of Christ, but what person will suffer no loss for having done things for selfish motive, or out of vanity and pride?
If you need to trust someone to give you understanding, trust the Spirit of Christ, given freely to those who ask and have believed Him who died for us and rose again to prepare a place for us.
I listen to and value the teaching of men like JM who have dedicated their lives to understanding and teaching the word, but self righteousness is always an ugly thing, full of condemnation and judgment, the clanging brass of a jailer's keys, and the threat of destruction at the hands of a hostile god who the self righteous have failed to understand. Jesus put an end to the enmity between us and God for those who have believed Him, and the enmity was really only on our part, not on the Lord's, Who loved us with an eternal love from before the foundation of the world.
Retrobyter
Well-Known Member
Shalom, Michael.
I agree with you that one can "trust the Ruach haQodesh, the Holy Spirit" for understanding; HOWEVER, don't think that He's an "Instant God!"Often, He TAKES HIS TIME to impart His knowledge! He doesn't just dump His knowledge on a person! He leads us along a learning curve so as not to overwhelm us with His knowledge. And, He does so in HIS timing, not according to our own timetable!
Furthermore, we all learn at different paces and in different orders the things we need to know. Thus, we are not always on the same page as other believers around us.
LOL! Then I take it that JM has never seen Mel Gibson's "The Passion of the Christ?" Wasn't that R rated? (I KNOW it was! I'm holding my copy of the movie right now!)Michael V Pardo said:
I agree with you that one can "trust the Ruach haQodesh, the Holy Spirit" for understanding; HOWEVER, don't think that He's an "Instant God!"Often, He TAKES HIS TIME to impart His knowledge! He doesn't just dump His knowledge on a person! He leads us along a learning curve so as not to overwhelm us with His knowledge. And, He does so in HIS timing, not according to our own timetable!
Furthermore, we all learn at different paces and in different orders the things we need to know. Thus, we are not always on the same page as other believers around us.
Retrobyter
Well-Known Member
Shalom, Trekson (and groupie, Marcus O'Reillius):
I'm going to try to finish this answer to post #59:
Your words: “Ok Retro, You need to come to grips with this thought. There is a reason why Paul doesn’t quote the whole passage in context and that’s because the context DOESN’T MATTER! What matters is the exact phrase he quotes and the reason why! The reason why from Rom. 9:24 is the inclusion of the gentiles."
And, THIS is why you get so much wrong! Without context, the verses are MEANINGLESS! Furthermore, Paul does NOT quote random verses out of their context to make a point! He was a BIBLE EXPERT! He was a PARUWSH! A PHARISEE! The Hebrew word means a SEPARATIST! However, that’s not a separation FROM something so much as it is a separation UNTO something! They were separated unto the study of the ONLY Word of God they had at the time — the TANAKH, an acronym for…
Torah (Pentateuch)
Navi’iym (Prophets)
Ketuviym (Writings)
… the three divisions of the Tanakh, the “Old Testament.”
Paul absolutely would NOT have quoted a verse for a single phrase out of that verse! That is mishandling the Scriptures!
Your words; “Sorry Retro, but a resurrection is nowhere in sight in Rom. 11. This is simply another way of saying they were 'dead in their sins' but upon individual salvation they receive 'eternal life,' like the rest of us and thus are eligible to be grafted back onto the tree."
NONSENSE! The Greek of the last half of Romans 11:15 is simply "tis hee prosleempsis ei mee zooee ek nekroon;"
tis = what/who/whom
hee = the
prosleempsis = admission/taking-to-oneself
ei = if
mee = not
zooee = life
ek = out-from
nekroon = (the)-dead?
Now, look at this passage of Scripture:
Mark 9:9-10
9 And as they came down from the mountain, he charged them that they should tell no man what things they had seen, till the Son of man were risen from the dead.
10 And they kept that saying with themselves, questioning one with another what the rising from the dead should mean.
KJV
Same words "ek nekroon!" If you want to say that Yeshua` (Jesus) was merely "dead in His sins" and "upon His individual salvation He received eternal life," then fine. You can have it your way in Romans 11, .... BUT, if you believe that Yeshua` literally rose from the dead, then Romans 11 is talking about the Resurrection!
Your words: “How do you come up with these things?! I’m sorry but, imo, you are looking at things 'backwards!' National Israel is NOWHERE in sight of this passage and it is NOT talking about the future it is talking of their and our present! (I changed the bold parts). Heb. 1:2 – 'Hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also he made the worlds (ages).' The verses I highlighted are speaking of Christ’s earthly ministry and events surrounding his ministry as witnessed and heard by his disciples. We are IN the 'world to come' as continuously evidenced by 'signs and wonders, and with divers miracles, and gifts of the Holy Ghost.' The whole book of Hebrews is speaking about how Christ is superior to the law and prophets and how the new covenant for both Jew and Gentiles is mostly in evidence now except for Heb. 8:11-12 which will be fulfilled by the 144,000+."
I come up with these things by paying attention to the Gospels, particularly Matthew and Mark!
Matthew 4:23-25
23 And Jesus went about all Galilee, teaching in their synagogues, and preaching the gospel of the kingdom, and healing all manner of sickness and all manner of disease among the people.
24 And his fame went throughout all Syria: and they brought unto him all sick people that were taken with divers diseases and torments, and those which were possessed with devils, and those which were lunatick, and those that had the palsy; and he healed them.
25 And there followed him great multitudes of people from Galilee, and from Decapolis, and from Jerusalem, and from Judaea, and from beyond Jordan.
KJV
The "gospel of the Kingdom or the good news about the Kingdom is neither "the death, burial, and resurrection of our Master," nor is it about some new thing like the "church!" To the contrary, look at Mark's Gospel:
Mark 1:14-15
14 Now after that John was put in prison, Jesus came into Galilee, preaching the gospel of the kingdom of God,
15 And saying, The time is fulfilled, and the kingdom of God is at hand: repent ye, and believe the gospel.
KJV
Yeshua` picked up His own herald's message and heralded the gospel (the good news) about the Kingdom of God or God's Kingdom. Then, He said, "The time is fulfilled and God's Kingdom is within your grasp! Repent (turn you attitude around 180 degrees) and believe the gospel!" Did He explain what that "good news" was? NO! He just said to believe it, as if they already KNEW what it was! And, indeed, they DID know!
Isaiah 52:7
7 How beautiful upon the mountains are the feet of him that bringeth good tidings, that publisheth peace; that bringeth good tidings of good, that publisheth salvation (deliverance; rescue); that saith unto Zion, Thy God reigneth!
KJV
They all heard or read this verse at least once a year! Yeshua` was saying, "It's time!" "Thy God reigneth! Your God reigns!" THAT is the "good news about God's Kingdom!" THAT is the Gospel!
Now, notice that Yeshua`s miracles -- the miracles that God worked through Him -- were INDICATORS and VALIDATION for the message of that good news! Therefore, it is to THIS gospel that the author of Hebrews was referring when he said,
Hebrews 2:3-4
3 How shall we escape, if we neglect so great salvation (deliverance; rescue); which at the first began to be spoken by the Lord (Yeshua`), and was confirmed unto us by them that heard him;
4 God also bearing them witness, both with signs and wonders, and with divers miracles, and gifts of the Holy Ghost, according to his own will?
KJV
Your words: “I continue to believe that Rom. 11 is speaking of our present and that of the Jews who have accepted Christ on an individual basis. It does confirm that at least a small remnant will have a future (the 144,000+). That’s the only way the salvation of 'national' Israel will be realized."
Ridiculous. Listen again to the words of Z'kharyahu's prophecy (from the CJB):
Zechariah 8:1-8
8:1 A message came from Adonai-Tzva’ot: 2 “Adonai-Tzva’ot says, ‘I am extremely jealous on Tziyon’s behalf, and I am jealous for her with great fury.’ 3 Adonai says, ‘I am returning to Tziyon, and I will live in Yerushalayim. Then Yerushalayim will be called Truth City, Adonai-Tzva’ot’s Mountain, the Mountain of the Holy One. 4 Adonai-Tzva’ot says, ‘Old men and old women will once again sit in the open places of Yerushalayim, each one with his cane in his hand, because of their great age. 5 The city’s open places will also be full of boys and girls playing there.’ 6 Adonai-Tzva’ot says, ‘This may seem amazing to the survivors in those days, but must it also seem amazing to me?’ says Adonai-Tzva’ot. 7 Adonai-Tzva’ot says, ‘I will save my people from lands east and west; 8 I will bring them back, and they will live in Yerushalayim. They will be my people; and I will be their God, with faithfulness and justice.’
CJB
Zechariah 12:1-14
1:1 A prophecy, the word of Adonai concerning Isra’el — here is the message from Adonai, who stretched out the heavens, laid the foundation of the earth and formed the spirit inside human beings:
2 “I will make Yerushalayim a cup
that will stagger the surrounding peoples.
Even Y’hudah will be caught up
in the siege against Yerushalayim.
3 When that day comes, I will make Yerushalayim
a heavy stone for all the peoples.
All who try to lift it will hurt (herniate) themselves,
and all the earth’s nations will be massed against her.
4 When that day comes,” says Adonai,
“I will strike all the horses with panic
and their riders with madness;
I will keep watch over Y’hudah,
but I will strike blind all the horses of the peoples.
5 The leaders of Y’hudah will say to themselves,
‘Those living in Yerushalayim are my strength
through Adonai-Tzva’ot their God.’
6 When that day comes,
I will make the leaders of Y’hudah
like a blazing fire pan in a pile of wood,
like a fiery torch among sheaves of grain;
they will devour all the surrounding peoples,
on the right and on the left.
Yerushalayim will be inhabited
in her own place, Yerushalayim.
7 Adonai will save the tents of Y’hudah first,
so that the glory of the house of David
and the glory of those living in Yerushalayim
will not appear greater than that of Y’hudah.
8 When that day comes, Adonai will defend
those living in Yerushalayim.
On that day, even someone who stumbles
will be like David;
and the house of David will be like God,
like the angel of Adonai before them.
9 “When that day comes, I will seek to destroy
all nations attacking Yerushalayim;
10 and I will pour out on the house of David
and on those living in Yerushalayim
a spirit of grace and prayer;
and they will look to me, whom they pierced.”
They will mourn for him
as one mourns for an only son;
they will be in bitterness on his behalf
like the bitterness for a firstborn son.
11 When that day comes, there will be
great mourning in Yerushalayim,
mourning like that for Hadad-Rimmon
in the Megiddo Valley.
12 Then the land will mourn,
each family by itself —
the family of the house of David by itself,
and their wives by themselves;
the family of the house of Natan by itself,
and their wives by themselves;
13 the family of the house of Levi by itself,
and their wives by themselves;
the family of the Shim‘i by itself,
and their wives by themselves;
14 all the remaining families, each by itself,
and their wives by themselves.
CJB
(Luke 3:23-38
23 Yeshua was about thirty years old when he began his public ministry. It was supposed that he was a son of Yosef who was of Eli,
24 of Mattat, of Levi, of Malki, of Yannai, of Yosef,
25 of Mattityahu, of Amotz, of Nachum, of Hesli, of Naggai,
26 of Machat, of Mattityahu, of Shim‘i, of Yosef, of Yodah,
27 of Yochanan, of Reisha, of Z’rubavel, of Sh’altiel, of Neri,
28 of Malki, of Addi, of Kosam, of Elmadan, of Er,
29 of Yeshua, of Eli‘ezer, of Yoram, of Mattat, of Levi,
30 of Shim‘on, of Y’hudah, of Yosef, of Yonam, of Elyakim,
31 of Mal’ah, of Manah, of Mattatah, of Natan, of David,
32 of Yishai, of ‘Oved, of Bo‘az, of Salmon, of Nachshon,
33 of Amminadav, of Admin, of Arni, of Hetzron, of Peretz, of Y’hudah,
34 of Ya‘akov, of Yitz’chak, of Avraham, of Terach, of Nachor,
35 of S’rug, of Re‘u, of Peleg, of ‘Ever, of Shelah,
36 of Keinan, of Arpakhshad, of Shem, of Noach, of Lemekh,
37 of Metushelach, of Hanokh, of Yered, of Mahalal’el, of Keinan,
38 of Enosh, of Shet, of Adam, of God.
CJB)
Zechariah 14:1-5
14:1 Look, a day is coming for Adonai
when your plunder, [Yerushalayim], will be divided
right there within you.
2 “For I will gather all the nations
against Yerushalayim for war.
The city will be taken,
the houses will be rifled,
the women will be raped,
and half the city will go into exile;
but the rest of the people
will not be cut off from the city.”
3 Then Adonai will go out
and fight against those nations,
fighting as on a day of battle.
4 On that day his feet will stand
on the Mount of Olives,
which lies to the east of Yerushalayim;
and the Mount of Olives will be split in half
from east to west, to make a huge valley.
Half of the mountain will move toward the north,
and half of it toward the south.
5 You will flee to the valley in the mountains,
for the valley in the mountains will reach to Atzel.
You will flee, just as you fled before the earthquake
in the days of ‘Uziyah king of Y’hudah.
Then Adonai my God will come
to you with all the holy ones.
CJB
The reason why YOU can't see the truth is because you have closed your eyes, your mind, and your heart to Isra'el. You see them as your enemies, but they are beloved BECAUSE of the Patriarchs! Because of Avraham, the (Grand) father of every Hebrew and Jew, Yitschaq (Isaac), Ya`aqov/Yisra'el (Jacob/Isra'el), Y'hudah (Judah, from which we get the term "Jew") and his brothers, to name a few, they are NOT without God's redemption! It's not about anything they have done or not done; it's about GOD who is rich in mercy, and HIS power!
You only THINK it's not possible for one to be justified by God after death, because that's true for the Gentiles - unjustified Gentiles are still strangers and aliens from the citizenship of Isra'el; HOWEVER, it is GOD that justifies! It's HIS choice and it's HIS power! We do nothing because there's nothing that we COULD do! "All of our righteousnesses are as FILTHY RAGS in His sight!" Resurrection is an act of CREATION! No matter how much of the body is left, the person still exists in the mind and memory of an Almighty God -- EL ELYON!
Your words: “The latter part of verse 48 (in Luke 12) really has nothing to do with any parable at all, it just happens to be placed after one. It is a continuing truth regardless of any parable or circumstance. It’s just another way of saying, 'Ignorance is no excuse,' we who have heard and studied the scriptures and 'know' the truth will be held to a higher standard than those who have not but those who have failed to study will also be 'punished' but to a lesser degree. You’re right, it’s not about salvation or justification, it’s about our responsibilities as believers.
Here is a truism that I’ve quoted before: 'The new is in the old concealed and the old is in the new revealed.' One cannot try to interpret the New Testament by reading through the lens of the Old. It just won’t work! It’s backwards and one will never 'see' the truth. You have to re-interpret the Old Testament through the lens of the New, see the spiritual fulfillments and come to the understanding that in and through Christ, Israel has already had their opportunity for 'national' salvation. 'He came unto His own, but his own knew him not.'
First, this last sentence is a MISQUOTE!
John 1:11-14
11 He came unto his own, and his own received him not.
12 But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name:
13 Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.
14 And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.
KJV
And, who were the "many as received Him" at this stage in history? HIS OWN PEOPLE! The people who rejected Him were the LEADERS of the people, both politically and religiously, the Kohen haGadol (the High Priest), the priests, the Levites, the Pharisees, the Saducees, and the Scribes and Torah teachers This also included the Sanhedrin, the seventy elders "of the board!" Nevertheless, many who had no place among the elders of the tribe of Y'hudah received Him ANYWAY!
Furthermore, it is ESSENTIAL that you understand that Gentiles cannot HOPE to "re-interpret" or "interpret" in the first place the Tanakh without understanding their Hebrew roots! Did you know that the "cup" of the "Last Supper" (or the Eucharist) was the third of four cups of wine, called the "Cup of Redemption," served at the Pesach (Passover) Seder, the feast associated with the liberation of the Hebrews from Egypt? Did you know that the "bread" of the "Last Supper" was the matzah, an unleavened, flat bread that resembles an unsalted cracker? Did you know that "baptism" was not unique to John the Baptist, that it was a cleansing ritual in the temple worship LONG before Yochanan (John) came along? Did you know that the Resurrection Sunday (commonly called "Easter" after the pagan goddess, Ishtar) occurred on the ceremony of Firstfruits, which is also known as "Chag HaTkhiyah?" Did you know that it is on THIS day that the "Counting of the Omer" begins in which people will daily add one to the count until they reach 50, at which point the next holiday occurs, Shavuot, the Feast of Weeks? This is the anniversary of the giving of the Law to Moshe (Moses) that today is known as "Pentecost!" All this and MUCH more is wrapped within the nuances of the feasts of Isra'el!
Finally, you said, "Now it is only available on an individual basis with the exception of the remnant of the 144,000+. They are the only parts of 'national' Israel who will enjoy the millennium. There is no rewriting of the past. Whether Gentile or Israeli, if you died in your sins there is no 'second chance' for salvation. It is/was available to all generations for those who exercised their faith and that is the only guideline by which their eternal destiny will be measured!"
Oho! So you've decided this for God, have you? For Gentiles who have no family history with Isra'el, their justification will largely be individually based. However, for Hebrews and Jews, their justification is on a FAMILY basis!
Consider carefully the wording of 1 Corinthians 7:
1 Corinthians 7:12-16
12 But to the rest speak I, not the Lord: If any brother hath a wife that believeth not, and she be pleased to dwell with him, let him not put her away.
13 And the woman which hath an husband that believeth not, and if he be pleased to dwell with her, let her not leave him.
14 For the unbelieving husband is sanctified by the wife, and the unbelieving wife is sanctified by the husband: else were your children unclean; but now are they holy.
15 But if the unbelieving depart, let him depart. A brother or a sister is not under bondage in such cases: but God hath called us to peace.
16 For what knowest thou, O wife, whether thou shalt save thy husband? or how knowest thou, O man, whether thou shalt save thy wife?
KJV
1 Corinthians 7:12-16
12 To the rest I say — I, not the Lord: if any brother has a wife who is not a believer, and she is satisfied to go on living with him, he should not leave her. 13 Also, if any woman has an unbelieving husband who is satisfied to go on living with her, she is not to leave him. 14 For the unbelieving husband has been set aside for God by the wife, and the unbelieving wife has been set aside for God by the brother — otherwise your children would be “unclean,” but as it is, they are set aside for God. 15 But if the unbelieving spouse separates himself, let him be separated. In circumstances like these, the brother or sister is not enslaved — God has called you to a life of peace. 16 For how do you know, wife, whether you will save (deliver; rescue) your husband? Or how do you know, husband, whether you will save (deliver; rescue) your wife?
CJB
Again, "holiness" does NOT mean "righteousness" or "perfection." It's simply referring to being "singled out" - "set aside" - for God! Now, I'm not saying that all will necessarily be justified by God, but all SHALL be "rescued" and that includes those who have already died and are resurrected at His Second Coming! There will always be those who are "sons of Beliy`'al" (sons of Belial) who stubbornly decide against God. They will receive the judgment of God. However, there are MILLIONS (not just 144,000; EMPHASIZE the "+") who never were given the information that Yeshua` was/is/will be the Great Messiah of prophecy who will be the King of the Jews, the King of Isra'el, and the King of kings, a title for World Emperor.
I'm going to try to finish this answer to post #59:
Your words: “Ok Retro, You need to come to grips with this thought. There is a reason why Paul doesn’t quote the whole passage in context and that’s because the context DOESN’T MATTER! What matters is the exact phrase he quotes and the reason why! The reason why from Rom. 9:24 is the inclusion of the gentiles."
And, THIS is why you get so much wrong! Without context, the verses are MEANINGLESS! Furthermore, Paul does NOT quote random verses out of their context to make a point! He was a BIBLE EXPERT! He was a PARUWSH! A PHARISEE! The Hebrew word means a SEPARATIST! However, that’s not a separation FROM something so much as it is a separation UNTO something! They were separated unto the study of the ONLY Word of God they had at the time — the TANAKH, an acronym for…
Torah (Pentateuch)
Navi’iym (Prophets)
Ketuviym (Writings)
… the three divisions of the Tanakh, the “Old Testament.”
Paul absolutely would NOT have quoted a verse for a single phrase out of that verse! That is mishandling the Scriptures!
Your words; “Sorry Retro, but a resurrection is nowhere in sight in Rom. 11. This is simply another way of saying they were 'dead in their sins' but upon individual salvation they receive 'eternal life,' like the rest of us and thus are eligible to be grafted back onto the tree."
NONSENSE! The Greek of the last half of Romans 11:15 is simply "tis hee prosleempsis ei mee zooee ek nekroon;"
tis = what/who/whom
hee = the
prosleempsis = admission/taking-to-oneself
ei = if
mee = not
zooee = life
ek = out-from
nekroon = (the)-dead?
Now, look at this passage of Scripture:
Mark 9:9-10
9 And as they came down from the mountain, he charged them that they should tell no man what things they had seen, till the Son of man were risen from the dead.
10 And they kept that saying with themselves, questioning one with another what the rising from the dead should mean.
KJV
Same words "ek nekroon!" If you want to say that Yeshua` (Jesus) was merely "dead in His sins" and "upon His individual salvation He received eternal life," then fine. You can have it your way in Romans 11, .... BUT, if you believe that Yeshua` literally rose from the dead, then Romans 11 is talking about the Resurrection!
Your words: “How do you come up with these things?! I’m sorry but, imo, you are looking at things 'backwards!' National Israel is NOWHERE in sight of this passage and it is NOT talking about the future it is talking of their and our present! (I changed the bold parts). Heb. 1:2 – 'Hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also he made the worlds (ages).' The verses I highlighted are speaking of Christ’s earthly ministry and events surrounding his ministry as witnessed and heard by his disciples. We are IN the 'world to come' as continuously evidenced by 'signs and wonders, and with divers miracles, and gifts of the Holy Ghost.' The whole book of Hebrews is speaking about how Christ is superior to the law and prophets and how the new covenant for both Jew and Gentiles is mostly in evidence now except for Heb. 8:11-12 which will be fulfilled by the 144,000+."
I come up with these things by paying attention to the Gospels, particularly Matthew and Mark!
Matthew 4:23-25
23 And Jesus went about all Galilee, teaching in their synagogues, and preaching the gospel of the kingdom, and healing all manner of sickness and all manner of disease among the people.
24 And his fame went throughout all Syria: and they brought unto him all sick people that were taken with divers diseases and torments, and those which were possessed with devils, and those which were lunatick, and those that had the palsy; and he healed them.
25 And there followed him great multitudes of people from Galilee, and from Decapolis, and from Jerusalem, and from Judaea, and from beyond Jordan.
KJV
The "gospel of the Kingdom or the good news about the Kingdom is neither "the death, burial, and resurrection of our Master," nor is it about some new thing like the "church!" To the contrary, look at Mark's Gospel:
Mark 1:14-15
14 Now after that John was put in prison, Jesus came into Galilee, preaching the gospel of the kingdom of God,
15 And saying, The time is fulfilled, and the kingdom of God is at hand: repent ye, and believe the gospel.
KJV
Yeshua` picked up His own herald's message and heralded the gospel (the good news) about the Kingdom of God or God's Kingdom. Then, He said, "The time is fulfilled and God's Kingdom is within your grasp! Repent (turn you attitude around 180 degrees) and believe the gospel!" Did He explain what that "good news" was? NO! He just said to believe it, as if they already KNEW what it was! And, indeed, they DID know!
Isaiah 52:7
7 How beautiful upon the mountains are the feet of him that bringeth good tidings, that publisheth peace; that bringeth good tidings of good, that publisheth salvation (deliverance; rescue); that saith unto Zion, Thy God reigneth!
KJV
They all heard or read this verse at least once a year! Yeshua` was saying, "It's time!" "Thy God reigneth! Your God reigns!" THAT is the "good news about God's Kingdom!" THAT is the Gospel!
Now, notice that Yeshua`s miracles -- the miracles that God worked through Him -- were INDICATORS and VALIDATION for the message of that good news! Therefore, it is to THIS gospel that the author of Hebrews was referring when he said,
Hebrews 2:3-4
3 How shall we escape, if we neglect so great salvation (deliverance; rescue); which at the first began to be spoken by the Lord (Yeshua`), and was confirmed unto us by them that heard him;
4 God also bearing them witness, both with signs and wonders, and with divers miracles, and gifts of the Holy Ghost, according to his own will?
KJV
Your words: “I continue to believe that Rom. 11 is speaking of our present and that of the Jews who have accepted Christ on an individual basis. It does confirm that at least a small remnant will have a future (the 144,000+). That’s the only way the salvation of 'national' Israel will be realized."
Ridiculous. Listen again to the words of Z'kharyahu's prophecy (from the CJB):
Zechariah 8:1-8
8:1 A message came from Adonai-Tzva’ot: 2 “Adonai-Tzva’ot says, ‘I am extremely jealous on Tziyon’s behalf, and I am jealous for her with great fury.’ 3 Adonai says, ‘I am returning to Tziyon, and I will live in Yerushalayim. Then Yerushalayim will be called Truth City, Adonai-Tzva’ot’s Mountain, the Mountain of the Holy One. 4 Adonai-Tzva’ot says, ‘Old men and old women will once again sit in the open places of Yerushalayim, each one with his cane in his hand, because of their great age. 5 The city’s open places will also be full of boys and girls playing there.’ 6 Adonai-Tzva’ot says, ‘This may seem amazing to the survivors in those days, but must it also seem amazing to me?’ says Adonai-Tzva’ot. 7 Adonai-Tzva’ot says, ‘I will save my people from lands east and west; 8 I will bring them back, and they will live in Yerushalayim. They will be my people; and I will be their God, with faithfulness and justice.’
CJB
Zechariah 12:1-14
1:1 A prophecy, the word of Adonai concerning Isra’el — here is the message from Adonai, who stretched out the heavens, laid the foundation of the earth and formed the spirit inside human beings:
2 “I will make Yerushalayim a cup
that will stagger the surrounding peoples.
Even Y’hudah will be caught up
in the siege against Yerushalayim.
3 When that day comes, I will make Yerushalayim
a heavy stone for all the peoples.
All who try to lift it will hurt (herniate) themselves,
and all the earth’s nations will be massed against her.
4 When that day comes,” says Adonai,
“I will strike all the horses with panic
and their riders with madness;
I will keep watch over Y’hudah,
but I will strike blind all the horses of the peoples.
5 The leaders of Y’hudah will say to themselves,
‘Those living in Yerushalayim are my strength
through Adonai-Tzva’ot their God.’
6 When that day comes,
I will make the leaders of Y’hudah
like a blazing fire pan in a pile of wood,
like a fiery torch among sheaves of grain;
they will devour all the surrounding peoples,
on the right and on the left.
Yerushalayim will be inhabited
in her own place, Yerushalayim.
7 Adonai will save the tents of Y’hudah first,
so that the glory of the house of David
and the glory of those living in Yerushalayim
will not appear greater than that of Y’hudah.
8 When that day comes, Adonai will defend
those living in Yerushalayim.
On that day, even someone who stumbles
will be like David;
and the house of David will be like God,
like the angel of Adonai before them.
9 “When that day comes, I will seek to destroy
all nations attacking Yerushalayim;
10 and I will pour out on the house of David
and on those living in Yerushalayim
a spirit of grace and prayer;
and they will look to me, whom they pierced.”
They will mourn for him
as one mourns for an only son;
they will be in bitterness on his behalf
like the bitterness for a firstborn son.
11 When that day comes, there will be
great mourning in Yerushalayim,
mourning like that for Hadad-Rimmon
in the Megiddo Valley.
12 Then the land will mourn,
each family by itself —
the family of the house of David by itself,
and their wives by themselves;
the family of the house of Natan by itself,
and their wives by themselves;
13 the family of the house of Levi by itself,
and their wives by themselves;
the family of the Shim‘i by itself,
and their wives by themselves;
14 all the remaining families, each by itself,
and their wives by themselves.
CJB
(Luke 3:23-38
23 Yeshua was about thirty years old when he began his public ministry. It was supposed that he was a son of Yosef who was of Eli,
24 of Mattat, of Levi, of Malki, of Yannai, of Yosef,
25 of Mattityahu, of Amotz, of Nachum, of Hesli, of Naggai,
26 of Machat, of Mattityahu, of Shim‘i, of Yosef, of Yodah,
27 of Yochanan, of Reisha, of Z’rubavel, of Sh’altiel, of Neri,
28 of Malki, of Addi, of Kosam, of Elmadan, of Er,
29 of Yeshua, of Eli‘ezer, of Yoram, of Mattat, of Levi,
30 of Shim‘on, of Y’hudah, of Yosef, of Yonam, of Elyakim,
31 of Mal’ah, of Manah, of Mattatah, of Natan, of David,
32 of Yishai, of ‘Oved, of Bo‘az, of Salmon, of Nachshon,
33 of Amminadav, of Admin, of Arni, of Hetzron, of Peretz, of Y’hudah,
34 of Ya‘akov, of Yitz’chak, of Avraham, of Terach, of Nachor,
35 of S’rug, of Re‘u, of Peleg, of ‘Ever, of Shelah,
36 of Keinan, of Arpakhshad, of Shem, of Noach, of Lemekh,
37 of Metushelach, of Hanokh, of Yered, of Mahalal’el, of Keinan,
38 of Enosh, of Shet, of Adam, of God.
CJB)
Zechariah 14:1-5
14:1 Look, a day is coming for Adonai
when your plunder, [Yerushalayim], will be divided
right there within you.
2 “For I will gather all the nations
against Yerushalayim for war.
The city will be taken,
the houses will be rifled,
the women will be raped,
and half the city will go into exile;
but the rest of the people
will not be cut off from the city.”
3 Then Adonai will go out
and fight against those nations,
fighting as on a day of battle.
4 On that day his feet will stand
on the Mount of Olives,
which lies to the east of Yerushalayim;
and the Mount of Olives will be split in half
from east to west, to make a huge valley.
Half of the mountain will move toward the north,
and half of it toward the south.
5 You will flee to the valley in the mountains,
for the valley in the mountains will reach to Atzel.
You will flee, just as you fled before the earthquake
in the days of ‘Uziyah king of Y’hudah.
Then Adonai my God will come
to you with all the holy ones.
CJB
The reason why YOU can't see the truth is because you have closed your eyes, your mind, and your heart to Isra'el. You see them as your enemies, but they are beloved BECAUSE of the Patriarchs! Because of Avraham, the (Grand) father of every Hebrew and Jew, Yitschaq (Isaac), Ya`aqov/Yisra'el (Jacob/Isra'el), Y'hudah (Judah, from which we get the term "Jew") and his brothers, to name a few, they are NOT without God's redemption! It's not about anything they have done or not done; it's about GOD who is rich in mercy, and HIS power!
You only THINK it's not possible for one to be justified by God after death, because that's true for the Gentiles - unjustified Gentiles are still strangers and aliens from the citizenship of Isra'el; HOWEVER, it is GOD that justifies! It's HIS choice and it's HIS power! We do nothing because there's nothing that we COULD do! "All of our righteousnesses are as FILTHY RAGS in His sight!" Resurrection is an act of CREATION! No matter how much of the body is left, the person still exists in the mind and memory of an Almighty God -- EL ELYON!
Your words: “The latter part of verse 48 (in Luke 12) really has nothing to do with any parable at all, it just happens to be placed after one. It is a continuing truth regardless of any parable or circumstance. It’s just another way of saying, 'Ignorance is no excuse,' we who have heard and studied the scriptures and 'know' the truth will be held to a higher standard than those who have not but those who have failed to study will also be 'punished' but to a lesser degree. You’re right, it’s not about salvation or justification, it’s about our responsibilities as believers.
Here is a truism that I’ve quoted before: 'The new is in the old concealed and the old is in the new revealed.' One cannot try to interpret the New Testament by reading through the lens of the Old. It just won’t work! It’s backwards and one will never 'see' the truth. You have to re-interpret the Old Testament through the lens of the New, see the spiritual fulfillments and come to the understanding that in and through Christ, Israel has already had their opportunity for 'national' salvation. 'He came unto His own, but his own knew him not.'
First, this last sentence is a MISQUOTE!
John 1:11-14
11 He came unto his own, and his own received him not.
12 But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name:
13 Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.
14 And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.
KJV
And, who were the "many as received Him" at this stage in history? HIS OWN PEOPLE! The people who rejected Him were the LEADERS of the people, both politically and religiously, the Kohen haGadol (the High Priest), the priests, the Levites, the Pharisees, the Saducees, and the Scribes and Torah teachers This also included the Sanhedrin, the seventy elders "of the board!" Nevertheless, many who had no place among the elders of the tribe of Y'hudah received Him ANYWAY!
Furthermore, it is ESSENTIAL that you understand that Gentiles cannot HOPE to "re-interpret" or "interpret" in the first place the Tanakh without understanding their Hebrew roots! Did you know that the "cup" of the "Last Supper" (or the Eucharist) was the third of four cups of wine, called the "Cup of Redemption," served at the Pesach (Passover) Seder, the feast associated with the liberation of the Hebrews from Egypt? Did you know that the "bread" of the "Last Supper" was the matzah, an unleavened, flat bread that resembles an unsalted cracker? Did you know that "baptism" was not unique to John the Baptist, that it was a cleansing ritual in the temple worship LONG before Yochanan (John) came along? Did you know that the Resurrection Sunday (commonly called "Easter" after the pagan goddess, Ishtar) occurred on the ceremony of Firstfruits, which is also known as "Chag HaTkhiyah?" Did you know that it is on THIS day that the "Counting of the Omer" begins in which people will daily add one to the count until they reach 50, at which point the next holiday occurs, Shavuot, the Feast of Weeks? This is the anniversary of the giving of the Law to Moshe (Moses) that today is known as "Pentecost!" All this and MUCH more is wrapped within the nuances of the feasts of Isra'el!
Finally, you said, "Now it is only available on an individual basis with the exception of the remnant of the 144,000+. They are the only parts of 'national' Israel who will enjoy the millennium. There is no rewriting of the past. Whether Gentile or Israeli, if you died in your sins there is no 'second chance' for salvation. It is/was available to all generations for those who exercised their faith and that is the only guideline by which their eternal destiny will be measured!"
Oho! So you've decided this for God, have you? For Gentiles who have no family history with Isra'el, their justification will largely be individually based. However, for Hebrews and Jews, their justification is on a FAMILY basis!
Consider carefully the wording of 1 Corinthians 7:
1 Corinthians 7:12-16
12 But to the rest speak I, not the Lord: If any brother hath a wife that believeth not, and she be pleased to dwell with him, let him not put her away.
13 And the woman which hath an husband that believeth not, and if he be pleased to dwell with her, let her not leave him.
14 For the unbelieving husband is sanctified by the wife, and the unbelieving wife is sanctified by the husband: else were your children unclean; but now are they holy.
15 But if the unbelieving depart, let him depart. A brother or a sister is not under bondage in such cases: but God hath called us to peace.
16 For what knowest thou, O wife, whether thou shalt save thy husband? or how knowest thou, O man, whether thou shalt save thy wife?
KJV
1 Corinthians 7:12-16
12 To the rest I say — I, not the Lord: if any brother has a wife who is not a believer, and she is satisfied to go on living with him, he should not leave her. 13 Also, if any woman has an unbelieving husband who is satisfied to go on living with her, she is not to leave him. 14 For the unbelieving husband has been set aside for God by the wife, and the unbelieving wife has been set aside for God by the brother — otherwise your children would be “unclean,” but as it is, they are set aside for God. 15 But if the unbelieving spouse separates himself, let him be separated. In circumstances like these, the brother or sister is not enslaved — God has called you to a life of peace. 16 For how do you know, wife, whether you will save (deliver; rescue) your husband? Or how do you know, husband, whether you will save (deliver; rescue) your wife?
CJB
Again, "holiness" does NOT mean "righteousness" or "perfection." It's simply referring to being "singled out" - "set aside" - for God! Now, I'm not saying that all will necessarily be justified by God, but all SHALL be "rescued" and that includes those who have already died and are resurrected at His Second Coming! There will always be those who are "sons of Beliy`'al" (sons of Belial) who stubbornly decide against God. They will receive the judgment of God. However, there are MILLIONS (not just 144,000; EMPHASIZE the "+") who never were given the information that Yeshua` was/is/will be the Great Messiah of prophecy who will be the King of the Jews, the King of Isra'el, and the King of kings, a title for World Emperor.
Shalom, brotherRetrobyter said:
I fully agree with what you said, but the point that I was trying to make is that the only reliable source of information about the Lord is the Holy Scripture and the only One who understands the scripture fully is the One who inspired it. Some men know more than others, some understand more, but the Lord is our authority and He alone is head of the church (or body if you prefer.)
Retrobyter
Well-Known Member
Shalom, Michael.
Okay, and I agree with the point you were trying to make here, too. I just like to think of myself as someone who has grown in a slightly different direction. I'm not any more intelligent than others. Indeed, I've had to really work to keep up with some of the people on this forum, but through a slightly different perspective on things, I've been given a new depth of perception that I want to share with others. Call me the "left eye" of the body! And, all I want to do is point to the One who gave me this different perspective; HE is the One God, YHWH, who helps us to understand His Scriptures.Michael V Pardo said:
Amen to that brother.Retrobyter said:
Personally, I try to be thorough in my study of scripture, comparing translations, using Strong's concordance to get a little bit of the original language's intent, looking for historical material to understand the social and cultural context that scripture was written in, as well as listening to dozens of opinions on at least some topics, but I'm no scholar. The ability to understand scripture is a gift of grace as much as is any of the gifts that the Lord blesses us with, and all things considered, I'd rather trust in His grace than in my own meager and limited abilities.
Grace and peace to you, brother, and whatever your bent may be, if its bringing you closer to God and making you more like Jesus, then it must be okay.
Marcus O'Reillius
Active Member
For the record, Paul's point in Romans 9 is not to interpret Isaiah 10 in context of the end-times.Retrobyter said:
Paul is not giving a dissertation on Isaiah.
Paul juxtaposes Israel to the Church in order to point out the necessity of faith - period.
He says it in plain words following the quote:
Rom 9:30 What shall we say then? That Gentiles, who did not pursue righteousness, attained righteousness, even the righteousness which is by faith; 31 but Israel, pursuing a law of righteousness, did not arrive at that law. 32 Why? Because they did not pursue it by faith, but as though it were by works.
And by the way, although you want to argue incessantly with Trekson over the littlest of things, you did not provide any evidence of "context" of Isaiah 10 in Romans 9. Indeed, there is no relation between the two on the broader context of which they are speaking. Paul's ultimate point is faith is required to avoid damnation. He is not building on the context of Isaiah 10. Yes, in this instance, he was very pointed in his quoting of Scripture.
Groupie? (LOL)
Hi Retro, I’m sorry it’s taken so long to reply but things around the farm need to be dealt with before winter arrives. Marcus already dealt with this part…”Paul absolutely would NOT have quoted a verse for a single phrase out of that verse! That is mishandling the Scriptures!” so I won’t bore you with more info regarding this section.
Your words: “The "gospel of the Kingdom or the good news about the Kingdom is neither "the death, burial, and resurrection of our Master," nor is it about some new thing like the "church!" To the contrary, look at Mark's Gospel:”
You are correct that the “gospel” that Christ preached was, “The kingdom of God is at hand” and that “gospel” was for the Jews, however upon their rejection of Christ as Messiah and the death, burial and resurrection of Christ, the gospel changed. The gospel that Paul preached was that because of the death, burial and resurrection of Christ, everything changed for both the Jew and the Gentile! Our access to the kingdom was no longer by faith and the law it is now by grace and faith! Eph. 2:8-9 – “For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: 9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.”
Your words: “Yeshua` picked up His own herald's message and heralded the gospel (the good news) about the Kingdom of God or God's Kingdom. Then, He said, "The time is fulfilled and God's Kingdom is within your grasp! Repent (turn you attitude around 180 degrees) and believe the gospel!" Did He explain what that "good news" was? NO! He just said to believe it, as if they already KNEW what it was! And, indeed, they DID know! Isaiah 52:7 7 How beautiful upon the mountains are the feet of him that bringeth good tidings, that publisheth peace; that bringeth good tidings of good, that publisheth salvation (deliverance; rescue); that saith unto Zion, Thy God reigneth! KJV
They all heard or read this verse at least once a year! Yeshua` was saying, "It's time!" "Thy God reigneth! Your God reigns!" THAT is the "good news about God's Kingdom!" THAT is the Gospel!
No, my friend, that could have been the gospel but they didn’t recognize it. They, as you appear to, were seeking a national deliverance/rescue but Christ was preaching an individual, spiritual deliverance/rescue, hence His words, “You must be born again”. Just being an Israelite was NOT sufficient!
My words: “I continue to believe that Rom. 11 is speaking of our present and that of the Jews who have accepted Christ on an individual basis. It does confirm that at least a small remnant will have a future (the 144,000+). That’s the only way the salvation of 'national' Israel will be realized."
Your take on my words: “Ridiculous. Listen again to the words of Z'kharyahu's prophecy.”
You’ve quoted those verses many times but they just don’t mean what you want them to mean. Those prophecies are for the descendants of those lines that are alive when the Day of the Lord begins. I’m not saying that when the resurrection occurs those families won’t be there during the millennium but they’re certainly not going to be raped, ravaged and killed again!!! You’re confusing the two timelines. Remember, the gist of our disagreement is over the word ALL from Rom. 11:26 – “And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob.”
Your words: “The reason why YOU can't see the truth is because you have closed your eyes, your mind, and your heart to Isra'el. You see them as your enemies, but they are beloved BECAUSE of the Patriarchs!..., they are NOT without God's redemption! It's not about anything they have done or not done; it's about GOD who is rich in mercy, and HIS power!
Nothing could be farther than the truth! First, I have never seen Israel as my enemy and shame on you for suggesting so! Secondly, It is ALWAYS about what we and they do/did or what we/they didn’t do/did. (try figuring that one out, lol) Do you really believe that when God told Elijah: 1 Kings 19:18 – “Yet I have left me seven thousand in Israel, all the knees which have not bowed unto Baal, and every mouth which hath not kissed him.”…that those who did bow down and kiss Baal will have the same eternal reward as the remnant of seven thousand??? If you really believe every Jew that ever lived will be saved and rescued unto eternal life than the whole aspect of the law was a joke. Do you think the remnant would believe that would be fair? Do you think God is less than fair?? How much plainer can Paul make it?
Rom. 4:13-22 (words in parenthesis mine)
13 “For the promise, that he should be the heir of the world, was not to Abraham, or to his seed, through the law, but through the righteousness of faith. 14 For if they which are of the law (Israel) be heirs, faith is made void, and the promise made of none effect: 15 Because the law worketh wrath: for where no law is, there is no transgression. 16 Therefore it is of faith, that it might be by grace; to the end the promise might be sure to all the seed;(Gentiles and Israel) not to that only which is of the law,(Israel) but to that also which is of the faith of Abraham; who is the father of us all, (Gentile and Jew alike) 17 As it is written, I have made thee a father of many nations, (prophecy showing the inclusion of Gentiles through faith) before him whom he believed, even God, who quickeneth the dead, and calleth those things which be not as though they were. 18 Who against hope believed in hope, that he might become the father of many nations, according to that which was spoken, So shall thy seed be. 19 And being not weak in faith, he considered not his own body now dead, when he was about an hundred years old, neither yet the deadness of Sarah's womb: 20 He staggered not at the promise of God through unbelief; but was strong in faith, giving glory to God; 21 And being fully persuaded that, what he had promised, he was able also to perform. 22 And therefore it was imputed to him for righteousness.”
What was imputed to Abraham for righteousness? His faith, not his bloodline!
Your words: “You only THINK it's not possible for one to be justified by God after death, because that's true for the Gentiles - unjustified Gentiles are still strangers and aliens from the citizenship of Isra'el;
And that is also true for unjustified Israelites as well. God makes it pretty clear. Heb. 9:27 – “And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment:” We all are judged by the faith we exhibited in our lifetimes NOT by our bloodlines.
Your words: “HOWEVER, it is GOD that justifies! It's HIS choice and it's HIS power! We do nothing because there's nothing that we COULD do! "All of our righteousnesses are as FILTHY RAGS in His sight!" Resurrection is an act of CREATION! No matter how much of the body is left, the person still exists in the mind and memory of an Almighty God.”
You are correct but you only think that family matters when it doesn’t. Resurrection is NOT an act of creation. It is an act of RESTORATION! We already were created.
Your words: “And, who were the "many as received Him" at this stage in history? HIS OWN PEOPLE! The people who rejected Him were the LEADERS of the people, both politically and religiously, the Kohen haGadol (the High Priest), the priests, the Levites, the Pharisees, the Saducees, and the Scribes and Torah teachers This also included the Sanhedrin, the seventy elders "of the board!" Nevertheless, many who had no place among the elders of the tribe of Y'hudah received Him ANYWAY!”
Many does NOT mean all.
Your words: “Oho! So you've decided this for God, have you? For Gentiles who have no family history with Isra'el, their justification will largely be individually based. However, for Hebrews and Jews, their justification is on a FAMILY basis!”
See, this is what you’re having a problem accepting. There is no such thing as a FAMILY BASIS that Gentiles can’t claim as well. In this matter, you are being dispensational by seeing an eternal separation between Israel and the Gentiles when NO SUCH SEPARATION EXISTS!! All Gentiles are linked to Christ through the lineage of Adam to Abraham and through the Gentiles in Christ’s own bloodline such as Ruth, Rahab, Tamar and Bathsheba. Now you can’t say you don’t recognize the lineage of women because the genealogy of Mary is in Luke (which you’ve quoted) while the genealogy in Matthew is Joseph’s. Why do they include Joseph’s in the first place? Because Joseph adopted Jesus and that gives him all rights equal to those of blood just like we receive when we accept Christ. Rom. 8:15-17 – “ For ye have not received the spirit of bondage again to fear; but ye have received the Spirit of adoption, whereby we cry, Abba, Father. 16 The Spirit itself beareth witness with our spirit, that we are the children of God: 17 And if children, then heirs; heirs of God, and joint-heirs with Christ; if so be that we suffer with him, that we may be also glorified together.”
Your words: “Again, "holiness" does NOT mean "righteousness" or "perfection." It's simply referring to being "singled out" - "set aside" - for God! Now, I'm not saying that all will necessarily be justified by God, but all SHALL be "rescued" and that includes those who have already died and are resurrected at His Second Coming! There will always be those who are "sons of Beliy`'al" (sons of Belial) who stubbornly decide against God.”
If they didn’t have faith in the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob, adding Christ to the equation wouldn’t change anything, just like it didn’t help those of Israel in Christ’s day who didn’t receive Him. The main problem I have with your point of view is that you are basically saying and I’m assuming teaching the younger members of your Messianic community, that if you’re an Israeli, it doesn’t matter if you lied, cheated, stole, committed adultery or murder, if you’re an Israeli, all will be forgiven just because you’re “family” regardless of whether you had faith in God or Christ at the point of death and that is a lie from the pit of hell. It is the opposite side of the coin of the Islamic belief that if you blow yourself up killing Americans or Jews you win 72 virgins!! Please remember this: Blood means nothing, faith means all!
Your words: “The "gospel of the Kingdom or the good news about the Kingdom is neither "the death, burial, and resurrection of our Master," nor is it about some new thing like the "church!" To the contrary, look at Mark's Gospel:”
You are correct that the “gospel” that Christ preached was, “The kingdom of God is at hand” and that “gospel” was for the Jews, however upon their rejection of Christ as Messiah and the death, burial and resurrection of Christ, the gospel changed. The gospel that Paul preached was that because of the death, burial and resurrection of Christ, everything changed for both the Jew and the Gentile! Our access to the kingdom was no longer by faith and the law it is now by grace and faith! Eph. 2:8-9 – “For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: 9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.”
Your words: “Yeshua` picked up His own herald's message and heralded the gospel (the good news) about the Kingdom of God or God's Kingdom. Then, He said, "The time is fulfilled and God's Kingdom is within your grasp! Repent (turn you attitude around 180 degrees) and believe the gospel!" Did He explain what that "good news" was? NO! He just said to believe it, as if they already KNEW what it was! And, indeed, they DID know! Isaiah 52:7 7 How beautiful upon the mountains are the feet of him that bringeth good tidings, that publisheth peace; that bringeth good tidings of good, that publisheth salvation (deliverance; rescue); that saith unto Zion, Thy God reigneth! KJV
They all heard or read this verse at least once a year! Yeshua` was saying, "It's time!" "Thy God reigneth! Your God reigns!" THAT is the "good news about God's Kingdom!" THAT is the Gospel!
No, my friend, that could have been the gospel but they didn’t recognize it. They, as you appear to, were seeking a national deliverance/rescue but Christ was preaching an individual, spiritual deliverance/rescue, hence His words, “You must be born again”. Just being an Israelite was NOT sufficient!
My words: “I continue to believe that Rom. 11 is speaking of our present and that of the Jews who have accepted Christ on an individual basis. It does confirm that at least a small remnant will have a future (the 144,000+). That’s the only way the salvation of 'national' Israel will be realized."
Your take on my words: “Ridiculous. Listen again to the words of Z'kharyahu's prophecy.”
You’ve quoted those verses many times but they just don’t mean what you want them to mean. Those prophecies are for the descendants of those lines that are alive when the Day of the Lord begins. I’m not saying that when the resurrection occurs those families won’t be there during the millennium but they’re certainly not going to be raped, ravaged and killed again!!! You’re confusing the two timelines. Remember, the gist of our disagreement is over the word ALL from Rom. 11:26 – “And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob.”
Your words: “The reason why YOU can't see the truth is because you have closed your eyes, your mind, and your heart to Isra'el. You see them as your enemies, but they are beloved BECAUSE of the Patriarchs!..., they are NOT without God's redemption! It's not about anything they have done or not done; it's about GOD who is rich in mercy, and HIS power!
Nothing could be farther than the truth! First, I have never seen Israel as my enemy and shame on you for suggesting so! Secondly, It is ALWAYS about what we and they do/did or what we/they didn’t do/did. (try figuring that one out, lol) Do you really believe that when God told Elijah: 1 Kings 19:18 – “Yet I have left me seven thousand in Israel, all the knees which have not bowed unto Baal, and every mouth which hath not kissed him.”…that those who did bow down and kiss Baal will have the same eternal reward as the remnant of seven thousand??? If you really believe every Jew that ever lived will be saved and rescued unto eternal life than the whole aspect of the law was a joke. Do you think the remnant would believe that would be fair? Do you think God is less than fair?? How much plainer can Paul make it?
Rom. 4:13-22 (words in parenthesis mine)
13 “For the promise, that he should be the heir of the world, was not to Abraham, or to his seed, through the law, but through the righteousness of faith. 14 For if they which are of the law (Israel) be heirs, faith is made void, and the promise made of none effect: 15 Because the law worketh wrath: for where no law is, there is no transgression. 16 Therefore it is of faith, that it might be by grace; to the end the promise might be sure to all the seed;(Gentiles and Israel) not to that only which is of the law,(Israel) but to that also which is of the faith of Abraham; who is the father of us all, (Gentile and Jew alike) 17 As it is written, I have made thee a father of many nations, (prophecy showing the inclusion of Gentiles through faith) before him whom he believed, even God, who quickeneth the dead, and calleth those things which be not as though they were. 18 Who against hope believed in hope, that he might become the father of many nations, according to that which was spoken, So shall thy seed be. 19 And being not weak in faith, he considered not his own body now dead, when he was about an hundred years old, neither yet the deadness of Sarah's womb: 20 He staggered not at the promise of God through unbelief; but was strong in faith, giving glory to God; 21 And being fully persuaded that, what he had promised, he was able also to perform. 22 And therefore it was imputed to him for righteousness.”
What was imputed to Abraham for righteousness? His faith, not his bloodline!
Your words: “You only THINK it's not possible for one to be justified by God after death, because that's true for the Gentiles - unjustified Gentiles are still strangers and aliens from the citizenship of Isra'el;
And that is also true for unjustified Israelites as well. God makes it pretty clear. Heb. 9:27 – “And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment:” We all are judged by the faith we exhibited in our lifetimes NOT by our bloodlines.
Your words: “HOWEVER, it is GOD that justifies! It's HIS choice and it's HIS power! We do nothing because there's nothing that we COULD do! "All of our righteousnesses are as FILTHY RAGS in His sight!" Resurrection is an act of CREATION! No matter how much of the body is left, the person still exists in the mind and memory of an Almighty God.”
You are correct but you only think that family matters when it doesn’t. Resurrection is NOT an act of creation. It is an act of RESTORATION! We already were created.
Your words: “And, who were the "many as received Him" at this stage in history? HIS OWN PEOPLE! The people who rejected Him were the LEADERS of the people, both politically and religiously, the Kohen haGadol (the High Priest), the priests, the Levites, the Pharisees, the Saducees, and the Scribes and Torah teachers This also included the Sanhedrin, the seventy elders "of the board!" Nevertheless, many who had no place among the elders of the tribe of Y'hudah received Him ANYWAY!”
Many does NOT mean all.
Your words: “Oho! So you've decided this for God, have you? For Gentiles who have no family history with Isra'el, their justification will largely be individually based. However, for Hebrews and Jews, their justification is on a FAMILY basis!”
See, this is what you’re having a problem accepting. There is no such thing as a FAMILY BASIS that Gentiles can’t claim as well. In this matter, you are being dispensational by seeing an eternal separation between Israel and the Gentiles when NO SUCH SEPARATION EXISTS!! All Gentiles are linked to Christ through the lineage of Adam to Abraham and through the Gentiles in Christ’s own bloodline such as Ruth, Rahab, Tamar and Bathsheba. Now you can’t say you don’t recognize the lineage of women because the genealogy of Mary is in Luke (which you’ve quoted) while the genealogy in Matthew is Joseph’s. Why do they include Joseph’s in the first place? Because Joseph adopted Jesus and that gives him all rights equal to those of blood just like we receive when we accept Christ. Rom. 8:15-17 – “ For ye have not received the spirit of bondage again to fear; but ye have received the Spirit of adoption, whereby we cry, Abba, Father. 16 The Spirit itself beareth witness with our spirit, that we are the children of God: 17 And if children, then heirs; heirs of God, and joint-heirs with Christ; if so be that we suffer with him, that we may be also glorified together.”
Your words: “Again, "holiness" does NOT mean "righteousness" or "perfection." It's simply referring to being "singled out" - "set aside" - for God! Now, I'm not saying that all will necessarily be justified by God, but all SHALL be "rescued" and that includes those who have already died and are resurrected at His Second Coming! There will always be those who are "sons of Beliy`'al" (sons of Belial) who stubbornly decide against God.”
If they didn’t have faith in the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob, adding Christ to the equation wouldn’t change anything, just like it didn’t help those of Israel in Christ’s day who didn’t receive Him. The main problem I have with your point of view is that you are basically saying and I’m assuming teaching the younger members of your Messianic community, that if you’re an Israeli, it doesn’t matter if you lied, cheated, stole, committed adultery or murder, if you’re an Israeli, all will be forgiven just because you’re “family” regardless of whether you had faith in God or Christ at the point of death and that is a lie from the pit of hell. It is the opposite side of the coin of the Islamic belief that if you blow yourself up killing Americans or Jews you win 72 virgins!! Please remember this: Blood means nothing, faith means all!
I wouldn't attempt to disagree with your argument as I agree that there is clearly only one way of salvation (personal) which is by faith in Christ Jesus, but Retrobyter is not wrong to believe what the scripture plainly says in regard to Israel. The promises of God are both certain and irrevocable. According to scripture, the Lord is by no means finished with the Jews as a nation. Jesus, called the Christ, was born a Jew and is their judge as well as ours and if you know exactly how He is going to deal with His kin according to the flesh would you please let me know the lottery numbers for next Monday.Trekson said:
God made promises to the blood lines of Abraham and not to just the Jews (check your scriptures), and if those promises remain unfulfilled, you can be sure that they will be fulfilled. God is not a man that He should change His mind or break an oath. Theologians have come up with elaborate explanations of biblical eschatology to obviate the promises of God, but the theologians don't control what God does, nor are they His counselors. Those that believe that they have this power are no better than mystics and sorcerers who have gone astray in the way of Balaam, offering evil counsel in the attempt to thwart the plans of God and change what He has decreed.
My question is "Does your theology interpret scripture for you, or do you let the Word speak to you through the agency of the Author, received by faith in our Savior?" This is a valid question for anyone who professes to know God and the issue of faith comes down to this: Do you know your master's voice and is what He has said worthy of your trust?
I hope that I'm not being offensive here, as that isn't my intent, but my question is directed to all who have eyes to see and ears to hear. In the end, personal theologies will melt away and we will all be revealed in the light of His presence, and trust me in this, we're all going to need the robe of His righteousness to cover our nakedness and our shame. The glory is all His, my brother. We contribute nothing to Him. Our understanding is an infant's perception of His being and our bickering no different than a toddler's attempts at self assertion among his peers. Understand this, our maturity isn't gauged by our understanding of Him, but by our understanding of ourselves and our relationships to others. We can have compassion and express grace to others as we see how we have received compassion and grace from Him, and may we see all the more clearly as the dawn approaches for the sake of His glory. Amen.
Hi Michael, If you read through the discussion you would see that I agree that God isn't done with Israel yet.
Your words: "if you know exactly how He is going to deal with His kin according to the flesh"
The same way He is going to deal with everybody else.
Acts 10:34 - "Then Peter opened his mouth, and said, Of a truth I perceive that God is no respecter of persons:"
Rom. 2:11 - "For there is no respect of persons with God. 12 For as many as have sinned without law shall also perish without law: and as many as have sinned in the law shall be judged by the law."
Gal. 6:9 - "And, ye masters, do the same things unto them, forbearing threatening: knowing that your Master also is in heaven; neither is there respect of persons with him."
You see, it's man that thinks blood line is a big deal, God does not. He doesn't care if we are Jews or Gentiles. For those of the NT, He only cares if we are covered under Christ's blood or not. For those of the OT, they will be judged by the law and the faith they had in their God. It's not mysticism or a guessing game similar to lottery nos. God provides us the answers in His word.
Most of the promises left unfulfilled for the nation of Israel are the land promises and they will be fulfilled by the 144,000+ in the millennium.
Your words: "if you know exactly how He is going to deal with His kin according to the flesh"
The same way He is going to deal with everybody else.
Acts 10:34 - "Then Peter opened his mouth, and said, Of a truth I perceive that God is no respecter of persons:"
Rom. 2:11 - "For there is no respect of persons with God. 12 For as many as have sinned without law shall also perish without law: and as many as have sinned in the law shall be judged by the law."
Gal. 6:9 - "And, ye masters, do the same things unto them, forbearing threatening: knowing that your Master also is in heaven; neither is there respect of persons with him."
You see, it's man that thinks blood line is a big deal, God does not. He doesn't care if we are Jews or Gentiles. For those of the NT, He only cares if we are covered under Christ's blood or not. For those of the OT, they will be judged by the law and the faith they had in their God. It's not mysticism or a guessing game similar to lottery nos. God provides us the answers in His word.
Most of the promises left unfulfilled for the nation of Israel are the land promises and they will be fulfilled by the 144,000+ in the millennium.
It is the classic dispensational false doctrine that God's "chosen people" are still the Jews through the promise to Abraham to bless his "seed" in Genesis 12.
Some accurately state that "God’s covenant of the land is based on his eternal character, not on Israel's own righteousness...." This is obviously straightforward and true. But then, deceivers would cleverly link the prior phrase concerning "the land" with their next statement "and he makes clear that even when they forsake his will, he will NEVER forget his covenant." The real question before us is, what covenant is it the LORD will "never forget?"
Let's look at 3 scriptures listed by many to support the false conclusion of the Rapture Cult (dispensationalism). In the Levitical passage, the LORD essentially says even though Israel has turned from him, "I will for their sakes remember the covenant of their ancestors..." (Leviticus 26:45). They then note the famous Jeremiah passage where God says "I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel...I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts..." (Jeremiah 31:31, 32).
The Psalm they reference in support of their contention that the Jewish people are irrevocably the "chosen people" also refers to the New Covenant, which God will keep even "if his children forsake my law" (Psalm 89:30); but the Psalm in question plainly connects this eternal relationship with Israel to the Davidic Covenant in verse 35 - "Once I have sworn by my holiness that I will not lie unto David....my covenant will I not break, nor will I alter the thing that is gone out of my lips" (Psalm 89:35, 34).
This Davidic Covenant is ignored by these dispensational writers. They also omit the characteristics of it that are stated in the Psalms concerning the very person associated with the covenant in question - David. In II Samuel, God details the covenant with David:
"I will be his father, and he shall be my son. If he commit iniquity, I will chasten him with the rod of men, and with the stripes of the children of men; But my mercy shall not depart away from him, as I took it from Saul, whom I put away before thee. And thy house and thy kingdom shall be established forever before thee; thy throne shall be established forever." - (II Sam 7:14-16)
This speaks of that same irrevocable covenant with Israel, but demonstrates that this "everlasting covenant" is to be associated with DAVID.
If you look for this "everlasting covenant" or this "New Covenant" where God says HE will always remember Israel, you'll find it is always associated with the Davidic Covenant. See Isaiah 9:7, 16:5, 22:22, 55:3; Jeremiah 17:25, 23:5, 30:9, 33:15, 33:22; Ezekial 34:23, 37:24; Hosea 3:5; Amos 9:11; Zechariah 12:10 and dozens more. This is why Jesus is called "the son of David" because he fulfills the promise that God made to "remember" Israel - through the New Covenant.
At no time was there NOT a remnant of Israel. When Christ says "I am not sent but to the lost sheep of the house of Israel" we're all faced with a tough choice. If, as the Identity (read Gentile supremacists) crowd says, the "lost tribes" were up in England at that point, then Jesus sure came to the wrong place. On the other hand, if Israel was not present to have at least a remnant to receive Christ's new covenant fulfilling the promise to David, then he came at the wrong time. If you say the kingdom was "postponed" until the Jews could figure out the truth, you make God one who miscalculates. If you make these promises unfulfilled awaiting a latter day bloodline, you have circumvented the central message of the New Testament and re-instated the Jews as the "chosen people" (read Jewish supremacists) when the word of God plainly states "the kingdom of God shall be taken from you..." (Matthew 21:43) and the Christians are to become the "chosen" (I Peter 2:9).
The simple truth is the promise to REMEMBER Israel was in the eternal promise to the "house of David" from which Jesus Christ is descended. Because there were Israelites present - "the natural branches" that were not broken off (Romans 11:21) - a remnant of Israel was preserved before the Judaean led nation was decimated by the Romans - as a direct result of "the overspreading of abominations" (Daniel 9:27). That "abomination" was the resumption of animal sacrifice for the sins of Israel when the MESSIAH had already shed his priceless blood. There is no further fulfillment necessary. A subtle distinction is, this doesn't mean God can't yet choose to intervene with physical Israel - it means he is not required to in order to fulfill his Old Testament promises as they have already been fulfilled in the life of Yahshua Ha'Moshiach (Jesus the Messiah) - the "Son of David."
In short, God has already fulfilled his promise to remember Israel in that he "sent his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life."
If you look closely at those eternal promises to "remember" Israel, you'll find precise links to Christ's ministry. For instance, when Isaiah speaks to Israel about what occurs WHEN God establishes his everlasting covenant, he writes "Be strong, fear not: behold, your God will come...he will come and save you. THEN the eyes of the blind shall be opened, and the ears of the deaf shall be unstopped. THEN shall the lame man leap as an hart, and the tongue of the dumb sing; for in the wilderness shall waters break out and streams in the desert." (Isaiah 35:5,6).
Jesus directly applies this prophecy to himself when John the Baptist's followers asked him if he was the one. He said go tell John "The blind receive their sight, and the lame walk, the lepers are cleansed, and the deaf hear, the dead are raised up, and the poor have the gospel preached to them." (Matthew 11:4,5). In Ezekiel, God says the same thing he said in the few verses cited by the dispensational (read Jewish supremacist) writers - but the promise is directly related to the person of Jesus Christ. Ezekiel reminds Israel of the broken covenant, but adds "Nevertheless I will remember my covenant with thee in the days of thy youth, and I will establish unto thee an everlasting covenant. And I will establish my covenant with thee: and thou shalt know that I am the Lord..." (Ezekiel 16).
Isaiah elaborates on the ONLY "everlasting covenant" to be made with ISRAEL: "Behold my servant, whom I uphold; mine elect, in whom my soul delighteth; I have put my spirit upon him: he shall bring forth judgment to the Gentiles...I the Lord have called thee in righteousness, and will hold thine hand, and will keep thee, and GIVE THEE FOR A COVENANT OF THE PEOPLE, for a light of the Gentiles; to open the blind eyes, to bring out the prisoners from the prison, and them that sit in darkness out of the prison house." (Isaiah 42:1, 5, 7)
Now if Jesus himself stated that HE was the fulfillment of this prophecy, how then do Rapturists (dispensationalists) teach that God will still move AGAIN to redeem "Israel?" Is there yet another "new covenant" still to come? Of course not. Thus, to the people that teach that the Jewish people are still somehow preferred above all others by the Lord himself, I say the following: If you refuse to recognize the fulfillment of God's promise, and instead place the unbelievers (see I John 2:22) that have already had their 'last chance' in the role of the "elect" based upon their racial or ethnic heritage, haven't you now become the racist?
The point is, by refusing to recognize the sonship of the Christians as the inheritors of the promise as WE have been grafted in to the tree of Israel (not replacing Israel, but being appended to that construct), the dispensationalists are setting up the believers in Jesus for the final deception of the Antichrist. When he is installed in Jerusalem, he will be a professing Christian, and as the Jews accept his leadership, it will seem that "Israel" has now been converted to Christianity. At that point, the "Church" will transition from futurism to Post-Millennialism - i.e. it is now time to build God's kingdom on the earth - but that kingdom will be the kingdom of the Antichrist.
I'll say this again. Dispensationalism is a completely false doctrine, and the attempt to place national Israel into a pre-eminent position in God's plan is Antichrist through and through. At the risk of redundancy, I'll restate this another way. The doctrine of national Israel as the "chosen people" is Satan's gambit designed to lure evangelical Christianity into an Israel-first millennialism that will ultimately enthrone the religious syncretism that will vault the Antichrist to power in Jerusalem.
-- Brother Jim
Some accurately state that "God’s covenant of the land is based on his eternal character, not on Israel's own righteousness...." This is obviously straightforward and true. But then, deceivers would cleverly link the prior phrase concerning "the land" with their next statement "and he makes clear that even when they forsake his will, he will NEVER forget his covenant." The real question before us is, what covenant is it the LORD will "never forget?"
Let's look at 3 scriptures listed by many to support the false conclusion of the Rapture Cult (dispensationalism). In the Levitical passage, the LORD essentially says even though Israel has turned from him, "I will for their sakes remember the covenant of their ancestors..." (Leviticus 26:45). They then note the famous Jeremiah passage where God says "I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel...I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts..." (Jeremiah 31:31, 32).
The Psalm they reference in support of their contention that the Jewish people are irrevocably the "chosen people" also refers to the New Covenant, which God will keep even "if his children forsake my law" (Psalm 89:30); but the Psalm in question plainly connects this eternal relationship with Israel to the Davidic Covenant in verse 35 - "Once I have sworn by my holiness that I will not lie unto David....my covenant will I not break, nor will I alter the thing that is gone out of my lips" (Psalm 89:35, 34).
This Davidic Covenant is ignored by these dispensational writers. They also omit the characteristics of it that are stated in the Psalms concerning the very person associated with the covenant in question - David. In II Samuel, God details the covenant with David:
"I will be his father, and he shall be my son. If he commit iniquity, I will chasten him with the rod of men, and with the stripes of the children of men; But my mercy shall not depart away from him, as I took it from Saul, whom I put away before thee. And thy house and thy kingdom shall be established forever before thee; thy throne shall be established forever." - (II Sam 7:14-16)
This speaks of that same irrevocable covenant with Israel, but demonstrates that this "everlasting covenant" is to be associated with DAVID.
If you look for this "everlasting covenant" or this "New Covenant" where God says HE will always remember Israel, you'll find it is always associated with the Davidic Covenant. See Isaiah 9:7, 16:5, 22:22, 55:3; Jeremiah 17:25, 23:5, 30:9, 33:15, 33:22; Ezekial 34:23, 37:24; Hosea 3:5; Amos 9:11; Zechariah 12:10 and dozens more. This is why Jesus is called "the son of David" because he fulfills the promise that God made to "remember" Israel - through the New Covenant.
At no time was there NOT a remnant of Israel. When Christ says "I am not sent but to the lost sheep of the house of Israel" we're all faced with a tough choice. If, as the Identity (read Gentile supremacists) crowd says, the "lost tribes" were up in England at that point, then Jesus sure came to the wrong place. On the other hand, if Israel was not present to have at least a remnant to receive Christ's new covenant fulfilling the promise to David, then he came at the wrong time. If you say the kingdom was "postponed" until the Jews could figure out the truth, you make God one who miscalculates. If you make these promises unfulfilled awaiting a latter day bloodline, you have circumvented the central message of the New Testament and re-instated the Jews as the "chosen people" (read Jewish supremacists) when the word of God plainly states "the kingdom of God shall be taken from you..." (Matthew 21:43) and the Christians are to become the "chosen" (I Peter 2:9).
The simple truth is the promise to REMEMBER Israel was in the eternal promise to the "house of David" from which Jesus Christ is descended. Because there were Israelites present - "the natural branches" that were not broken off (Romans 11:21) - a remnant of Israel was preserved before the Judaean led nation was decimated by the Romans - as a direct result of "the overspreading of abominations" (Daniel 9:27). That "abomination" was the resumption of animal sacrifice for the sins of Israel when the MESSIAH had already shed his priceless blood. There is no further fulfillment necessary. A subtle distinction is, this doesn't mean God can't yet choose to intervene with physical Israel - it means he is not required to in order to fulfill his Old Testament promises as they have already been fulfilled in the life of Yahshua Ha'Moshiach (Jesus the Messiah) - the "Son of David."
In short, God has already fulfilled his promise to remember Israel in that he "sent his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life."
If you look closely at those eternal promises to "remember" Israel, you'll find precise links to Christ's ministry. For instance, when Isaiah speaks to Israel about what occurs WHEN God establishes his everlasting covenant, he writes "Be strong, fear not: behold, your God will come...he will come and save you. THEN the eyes of the blind shall be opened, and the ears of the deaf shall be unstopped. THEN shall the lame man leap as an hart, and the tongue of the dumb sing; for in the wilderness shall waters break out and streams in the desert." (Isaiah 35:5,6).
Jesus directly applies this prophecy to himself when John the Baptist's followers asked him if he was the one. He said go tell John "The blind receive their sight, and the lame walk, the lepers are cleansed, and the deaf hear, the dead are raised up, and the poor have the gospel preached to them." (Matthew 11:4,5). In Ezekiel, God says the same thing he said in the few verses cited by the dispensational (read Jewish supremacist) writers - but the promise is directly related to the person of Jesus Christ. Ezekiel reminds Israel of the broken covenant, but adds "Nevertheless I will remember my covenant with thee in the days of thy youth, and I will establish unto thee an everlasting covenant. And I will establish my covenant with thee: and thou shalt know that I am the Lord..." (Ezekiel 16).
Isaiah elaborates on the ONLY "everlasting covenant" to be made with ISRAEL: "Behold my servant, whom I uphold; mine elect, in whom my soul delighteth; I have put my spirit upon him: he shall bring forth judgment to the Gentiles...I the Lord have called thee in righteousness, and will hold thine hand, and will keep thee, and GIVE THEE FOR A COVENANT OF THE PEOPLE, for a light of the Gentiles; to open the blind eyes, to bring out the prisoners from the prison, and them that sit in darkness out of the prison house." (Isaiah 42:1, 5, 7)
Now if Jesus himself stated that HE was the fulfillment of this prophecy, how then do Rapturists (dispensationalists) teach that God will still move AGAIN to redeem "Israel?" Is there yet another "new covenant" still to come? Of course not. Thus, to the people that teach that the Jewish people are still somehow preferred above all others by the Lord himself, I say the following: If you refuse to recognize the fulfillment of God's promise, and instead place the unbelievers (see I John 2:22) that have already had their 'last chance' in the role of the "elect" based upon their racial or ethnic heritage, haven't you now become the racist?
The point is, by refusing to recognize the sonship of the Christians as the inheritors of the promise as WE have been grafted in to the tree of Israel (not replacing Israel, but being appended to that construct), the dispensationalists are setting up the believers in Jesus for the final deception of the Antichrist. When he is installed in Jerusalem, he will be a professing Christian, and as the Jews accept his leadership, it will seem that "Israel" has now been converted to Christianity. At that point, the "Church" will transition from futurism to Post-Millennialism - i.e. it is now time to build God's kingdom on the earth - but that kingdom will be the kingdom of the Antichrist.
I'll say this again. Dispensationalism is a completely false doctrine, and the attempt to place national Israel into a pre-eminent position in God's plan is Antichrist through and through. At the risk of redundancy, I'll restate this another way. The doctrine of national Israel as the "chosen people" is Satan's gambit designed to lure evangelical Christianity into an Israel-first millennialism that will ultimately enthrone the religious syncretism that will vault the Antichrist to power in Jerusalem.
-- Brother Jim
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