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How can the rapture be anything but pre-trib???

Discussion in 'Eschatology & Prophecy Forum' started by rockytopva, Aug 4, 2014.

  1. Retrobyter

    Retrobyter Well-Known Member

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    Shalom, Trekson.

    Okay, let's think about the TIMING of this system you have (which is similar to what I USED to believe):

    First, Yeshua` had raised some to life before His death. These came back to life JUST AS they were before they died, only they were healthy. Apparently, they would have to die again at their natural appointment time. The first time they "die," they are said to "just be sleeping," and their deaths were for the "glory of God!"
    Luke 7:11-17
    11 And it came to pass the day after, that he went into a city called Nain; and many of his disciples went with him, and much people.
    12 Now when he came nigh to the gate of the city, behold, there was a dead man carried out, the only son of his mother, and she was a widow: and much people of the city was with her.
    13 And when the Lord saw her, he had compassion on her, and said unto her, Weep not.
    14 And he came and touched the bier: and they that bare him stood still. And he said, Young man, I say unto thee, Arise.
    15 And he that was dead sat up, and began to speak. And he delivered him to his mother.
    16 And there came a fear on all: and they glorified God, saying, That a great prophet is risen up among us; and, That God hath visited his people.
    17 And this rumour of him went forth throughout all Judaea, and throughout all the region round about.
    KJV

    Mark 5:21-43
    21 And when Jesus was passed over again by ship unto the other side, much people gathered unto him: and he was nigh unto the sea.
    22 And, behold, there cometh one of the rulers of the synagogue, Jairus by name; and when he saw him, he fell at his feet,
    23 And besought him greatly, saying, My little daughter lieth at the point of death: I pray thee, come and lay thy hands on her, that she may be healed; and she shall live.
    24 And Jesus went with him; and much people followed him, and thronged him.
    25 And a certain woman, which had an issue of blood twelve years,
    26 And had suffered many things of many physicians, and had spent all that she had, and was nothing bettered, but rather grew worse,
    27 When she had heard of Jesus, came in the press behind, and touched his garment.
    28 For she said, If I may touch but his clothes, I shall be whole.
    29 And straightway the fountain of her blood was dried up; and she felt in her body that she was healed of that plague.
    30 And Jesus, immediately knowing in himself that virtue had gone out of him, turned him about in the press, and said,
    Who touched my clothes?
    31 And his disciples said unto him, Thou seest the multitude thronging thee, and sayest thou, Who touched me?
    32 And he looked round about to see her that had done this thing.
    33 But the woman fearing and trembling, knowing what was done in her, came and fell down before him, and told him all the truth.
    34 And he said unto her,
    Daughter, thy faith hath made thee whole; go in peace, and be whole of thy plague.
    35 While he yet spake, there came from the ruler of the synagogue's house certain which said, Thy daughter is dead: why troublest thou the Master any further?
    36 As soon as Jesus heard the word that was spoken, he saith unto the ruler of the synagogue,
    Be not afraid, only believe.
    37 And he suffered no man to follow him, save Peter, and James, and John the brother of James.
    38 And he cometh to the house of the ruler of the synagogue, and seeth the tumult, and them that wept and wailed greatly.
    39 And when he was come in, he saith unto them,
    Why make ye this ado, and weep? the damsel is not dead, but sleepeth.
    40 And they laughed him to scorn. But when he had put them all out, he taketh the father and the mother of the damsel, and them that were with him, and entereth in where the damsel was lying.
    41 And he took the damsel by the hand, and said unto her,
    Talitha cumi; which is, being interpreted, Damsel, I say unto thee, arise.
    42 And straightway the damsel arose, and walked; for she was of the age of twelve years. And they were astonished with a great astonishment.
    43 And he charged them straitly that no man should know it; and commanded that something should be given her to eat.

    KJV
    Luke 8:40-56
    40 And it came to pass, that, when Jesus was returned, the people gladly received him: for they were all waiting for him.
    41 And, behold, there came a man named Jairus, and he was a ruler of the synagogue: and he fell down at Jesus' feet, and besought him that he would come into his house:
    42 For he had one only daughter, about twelve years of age, and she lay a dying. But as he went the people thronged him.
    43 And a woman having an issue of blood twelve years, which had spent all her living upon physicians, neither could be healed of any,
    44 Came behind him, and touched the border of his garment: and immediately her issue of blood stanched.
    45 And Jesus said,
    Who touched me? When all denied, Peter and they that were with him said, Master, the multitude throng thee and press thee, and sayest thou, Who touched me?
    46 And Jesus said,
    Somebody hath touched me: for I perceive that virtue is gone out of me.
    47 And when the woman saw that she was not hid, she came trembling, and falling down before him, she declared unto him before all the people for what cause she had touched him and how she was healed immediately.
    48 And he said unto her,
    Daughter, be of good comfort: thy faith hath made thee whole; go in peace.
    49 While he yet spake, there cometh one from the ruler of the synagogue's house, saying to him, Thy daughter is dead; trouble not the Master.
    50 But when Jesus heard it, he answered him, saying,
    Fear not: believe only, and she shall be made whole.
    51 And when he came into the house, he suffered no man to go in, save Peter, and James, and John, and the father and the mother of the maiden.
    52 And all wept, and bewailed her: but he said,
    Weep not; she is not dead, but sleepeth.
    53 And they laughed him to scorn, knowing that she was dead.
    54 And he put them all out, and took her by the hand, and called, saying,
    Maid, arise.
    55 And her spirit came again, and she arose straightway: and he commanded to give her meat.
    56 And her parents were astonished: but he charged them that they should tell no man what was done.

    KJV
    John 11:1-46
    1 Now a certain man was sick, named Lazarus, of Bethany, the town of Mary and her sister Martha.
    2 (It was that Mary which anointed the Lord with ointment, and wiped his feet with her hair, whose brother Lazarus was sick.)
    3 Therefore his sisters sent unto him, saying, Lord, behold, he whom thou lovest is sick.
    4 When Jesus heard that, he said,
    This sickness is not unto death, but for the glory of God, that the Son of God might be glorified thereby.
    5 Now Jesus loved Martha, and her sister, and Lazarus.
    6 When he had heard therefore that he was sick, he abode two days still in the same place where he was.
    7 Then after that saith he to his disciples,
    Let us go into Judaea again.
    8 His disciples say unto him, Master, the Jews of late sought to stone thee; and goest thou thither again?
    9 Jesus answered,
    Are there not twelve hours in the day? If any man walk in the day, he stumbleth not, because he seeth the light of this world.
    10 But if a man walk in the night, he stumbleth, because there is no light in him.

    11 These things said he: and after that he saith unto them, Our friend Lazarus sleepeth; but I go, that I may awake him out of sleep.
    12 Then said his disciples, Lord, if he sleep, he shall do well.
    13 Howbeit Jesus spake of his death: but they thought that he had spoken of taking of rest in sleep.
    14 Then said Jesus unto them plainly,
    Lazarus is dead.
    15 And I am glad for your sakes that I was not there, to the intent ye may believe; nevertheless let us go unto him.

    16 Then said Thomas, which is called Didymus, unto his fellowdisciples, Let us also go, that we may die with him.
    17 Then when Jesus came, he found that he had lain in the grave four days already.
    18 Now Bethany was nigh unto Jerusalem, about fifteen furlongs off:
    19 And many of the Jews came to Martha and Mary, to comfort them concerning their brother.
    20 Then Martha, as soon as she heard that Jesus was coming, went and met him: but Mary sat still in the house.
    21 Then said Martha unto Jesus, Lord, if thou hadst been here, my brother had not died.
    22 But I know, that even now, whatsoever thou wilt ask of God, God will give it thee.
    23 Jesus saith unto her,
    Thy brother shall rise again.
    24 Martha saith unto him, I know that he shall rise again in the resurrection at the last day.
    25 Jesus said unto her,
    I am the resurrection, and the life: he that believeth in me, though he were dead, yet shall he live:
    26 And whosoever liveth and believeth in me shall never die. Believest thou this?

    27 She saith unto him, Yea, Lord: I believe that thou art the Christ, the Son of God, which should come into the world.
    28 And when she had so said, she went her way, and called Mary her sister secretly, saying, The Master is come, and calleth for thee.
    29 As soon as she heard that, she arose quickly, and came unto him.
    30 Now Jesus was not yet come into the town, but was in that place where Martha met him.
    31 The Jews then which were with her in the house, and comforted her, when they saw Mary, that she rose up hastily and went out, followed her, saying, She goeth unto the grave to weep there.
    32 Then when Mary was come where Jesus was, and saw him, she fell down at his feet, saying unto him, Lord, if thou hadst been here, my brother had not died.
    33 When Jesus therefore saw her weeping, and the Jews also weeping which came with her, he groaned in the spirit, and was troubled,
    34 And said,
    Where have ye laid him? They said unto him, Lord, come and see.
    35 Jesus wept.
    36 Then said the Jews, Behold how he loved him!
    37 And some of them said, Could not this man, which opened the eyes of the blind, have caused that even this man should not have died?
    38 Jesus therefore again groaning in himself cometh to the grave. It was a cave, and a stone lay upon it.
    39 Jesus said,
    Take ye away the stone. Martha, the sister of him that was dead, saith unto him, Lord, by this time he stinketh: for he hath been dead four days.
    40 Jesus saith unto her,
    Said I not unto thee, that, if thou wouldest believe, thou shouldest see the glory of God?
    41 Then they took away the stone from the place where the dead was laid. And Jesus lifted up his eyes, and said, Father, I thank thee that thou hast heard me.
    42 And I knew that thou hearest me always: but because of the people which stand by I said it, that they may believe that thou hast sent me.

    43 And when he thus had spoken, he cried with a loud voice, Lazarus, come forth.
    44 And he that was dead came forth, bound hand and foot with graveclothes: and his face was bound about with a napkin. Jesus saith unto them, Loose him, and let him go.
    45 Then many of the Jews which came to Mary, and had seen the things which Jesus did, believed on him.
    46 But some of them went their ways to the Pharisees, and told them what things Jesus had done.
    KJV


    Later, we learn this about Lazarus:
    John 12:9-11
    9 Much people of the Jews therefore knew that he was there: and they came not for Jesus' sake only, but that they might see Lazarus also, whom he had raised from the dead.
    10 But the chief priests consulted that they might put Lazarus also to death;
    11 Because that by reason of him many of the Jews went away, and believed on Jesus.
    KJV


    Therefore, they reasoned that, even raised from the dead, he could still be killed ... again.

    Then, Yeshua` Himself died and rose again:

    Matthew 27:50-54
    50 Jesus, when he had cried again with a loud voice, yielded up the ghost.
    51 And, behold, the veil of the temple was rent in twain from the top to the bottom; and the earth did quake, and the rocks rent;
    52 And the graves were opened; and many bodies of the saints which slept arose,
    53 And came out of the graves after his resurrection, and went into the holy city, and appeared unto many.
    54 Now when the centurion, and they that were with him, watching Jesus, saw the earthquake, and those things that were done, they feared greatly, saying, Truly this was the Son of God.
    KJV


    This was immediately at His death. These resurrected individuals AROSE at this point in time and THEN came out of the graves AFTER His resurrection. Thus, they were brought back to life BEFORE Yeshua`s own resurrection.

    Remember Paul's words in 1 Corinthians 15:20-28:

    1 Corinthians 15:20-28
    20 But now is Christ risen from the dead, and become the firstfruits of them that slept.
    21 For since by man came death, by man came also the resurrection of the dead.
    22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.
    23 But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming.
    24 Then cometh the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power.
    25 For he must reign, till he hath put all enemies under his feet.
    26 The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death.
    27 For he hath put all things under his feet. But when he saith, all things are put under him, it is manifest that he is excepted, which did put all things under him.
    28 And when all things shall be subdued unto him, then shall the Son also himself be subject unto him that put all things under him, that God may be all in all.
    KJV


    HE is the "FIRSTFRUITS of them who slept!" This is the resurrection WITH transformation! All who were raised before Him were raised WITHOUT transformation!

    Now, check out Peter's words in Acts 2:

    Acts 2:22-36
    22 Ye men of Israel, hear these words; Jesus of Nazareth, a man approved of God among you by miracles and wonders and signs, which God did by him in the midst of you, as ye yourselves also know:
    23 Him, being delivered by the determinate counsel and foreknowledge of God, ye have taken, and by wicked hands have crucified and slain:
    24 Whom God hath raised up, having loosed the pains of death: because it was not possible that he should be holden of it.
    25 For David speaketh concerning him,
    I foresaw the LORD always before my face, for he is on my right hand, that I should not be moved:
    26 Therefore did my heart rejoice, and my tongue was glad; moreover also my flesh shall rest in hope:
    27 Because thou wilt not leave my soul in hell, neither wilt thou suffer thine Holy One to see corruption.
    28 Thou hast made known to me the ways of life; thou shalt make me full of joy with thy countenance. (Psalm 16:8-11)
    29 Men and brethren, let me freely speak unto you of the patriarch David, that he is both dead and buried, and his sepulchre is with us unto this day.
    30 Therefore being a prophet, and knowing that God had sworn with an oath to him, that of the fruit of his loins, according to the flesh, he would raise up Christ (the Messiah) to sit on his throne;
    31 He seeing this before spake of the resurrection of Christ (the Messiah), that his soul was not left in hell, neither his flesh did see corruption.

    32 This Jesus hath God raised up, whereof we all are witnesses.
    33 Therefore being by the right hand of God exalted, and having received of the Father the promise of the Holy Ghost, he hath shed forth this, which ye now see and hear.
    34 For David is not ascended into the heavens: but he saith himself,
    The LORD said unto my Lord, Sit thou on my right hand,
    35 Until I make thy foes thy footstool. (Psalm 110:1)

    36 Therefore let all the house of Israel know assuredly, that God hath made that same Jesus, whom ye have crucified, both Lord and Christ (Messiah).
    KJV


    This was said AFTER Yeshua`s resurrection! It was said AFTER the ones who were resurrected at Yeshua`s death appeared in Yerushalayim (Jerusalem)! Therefore, neither David nor any of the other OT saints are currently "in heaven!"

    Concerning David, we also read these prophecies:

    Jeremiah 30:7-10
    7 Alas! for that day is great, so that none is like it: it is even the time of Jacob's trouble; but he shall be saved out of it.
    8 For it shall come to pass in that day, saith the LORD of hosts, that I will break his yoke from off thy neck, and will burst thy bonds, and strangers shall no more serve themselves of him:
    9 But they shall serve the LORD their God, and David their king, whom I will raise up unto them.
    10 Therefore fear thou not, O my servant Jacob, saith the LORD neither be dismayed, O Israel: for, lo, I will save thee from afar, and thy seed from the land of their captivity; and Jacob shall return, and shall be in rest, and be quiet, and none shall make him afraid.
    KJV

    Ezekiel 34:20-26
    20 Therefore thus saith the Lord GOD unto them; Behold, I, even I, will judge between the fat cattle and between the lean cattle.
    21 Because ye have thrust with side and with shoulder, and pushed all the diseased with your horns, till ye have scattered them abroad;
    22 Therefore will I save my flock, and they shall no more be a prey; and I will judge between cattle and cattle.
    23 And I will set up one shepherd over them, and he shall feed them, even my servant David; he shall feed them, and he shall be their shepherd.
    24 And I the LORD will be their God, and my servant David a prince among them; I the LORD have spoken it.
    25 And I will make with them a covenant of peace, and will cause the evil beasts to cease out of the land: and they shall dwell safely in the wilderness, and sleep in the woods.
    26 And I will make them and the places round about my hill a blessing; and I will cause the shower to come down in his season; there shall be showers of blessing.
    KJV


    Ezekiel 37:21-28
    21 And say unto them, Thus saith the Lord GOD Behold, I will take the children of Israel from among the heathen, whither they be gone, and will gather them on every side, and bring them into their own land:
    22 And I will make them one nation in the land upon the mountains of Israel; and one king shall be king to them all: and they shall be no more two nations, neither shall they be divided into two kingdoms any more at all:
    23 Neither shall they defile themselves any more with their idols, nor with their detestable things, nor with any of their transgressions: but I will save them out of all their dwellingplaces, wherein they have sinned, and will cleanse them: so shall they be my people, and I will be their God.
    24 And David my servant shall be king over them; and they all shall have one shepherd: they shall also walk in my judgments, and observe my statutes, and do them.
    25 And they shall dwell in the land that I have given unto Jacob my servant, wherein your fathers have dwelt; and they shall dwell therein, even they, and their children, and their children's children for ever: and my servant David shall be their prince for ever.
    26 Moreover I will make a covenant of peace with them; it shall be an everlasting covenant with them: and I will place them, and multiply them, and will set my sanctuary in the midst of them for evermore.
    27 My tabernacle also shall be with them: yea, I will be their God, and they shall be my people.
    28 And the heathen shall know that I the LORD do sanctify Israel, when my sanctuary shall be in the midst of them for evermore.
    KJV

    Hosea 3:4-5
    4 For the children of Israel shall abide many days without a king, and without a prince, and without a sacrifice, and without an image, and without an ephod, and without teraphim:
    5 Afterward shall the children of Israel return, and seek the Lord their God, and David their king; and shall fear the LORD and his goodness in the latter days.
    KJV

    Zechariah 12:10-14
    10 And I will pour upon the house of David, and upon the inhabitants of Jerusalem, the spirit of grace and of supplications: and they shall look upon me whom they have pierced, and they shall mourn for him, as one mourneth for his only son, and shall be in bitterness for him, as one that is in bitterness for his firstborn.
    11 In that day shall there be a great mourning in Jerusalem, as the mourning of Hadadrimmon in the valley of Megiddon.
    12 And the land shall mourn, every family apart; the family of the house of David apart, and their wives apart; the family of the house of Nathan apart, and their wives apart;
    13 The family of the house of Levi apart, and their wives apart; the family of Shimei apart, and their wives apart;
    14 All the families that remain, every family apart, and their wives apart.
    KJV


    And, this last prophecy is a proof of AFTER the resurrection of these families because we find these names again in Scripture in this order:

    Zechariah 12:10-14
    10 and I will pour out on the house of David

    and on those living in Yerushalayim
    a spirit of grace and prayer;
    and they will look to me, whom they pierced.”
    They will mourn for him
    as one mourns for an only son;
    they will be in bitterness on his behalf
    like the bitterness for a firstborn son.
    11 When that day comes, there will be
    great mourning in Yerushalayim,
    mourning like that for Hadad-Rimmon
    in the Megiddo Valley.
    12 Then the land will mourn,
    each family by itself —
    the family of the house of David by itself,
    and their wives by themselves;
    the family of the house of Natan by itself,
    and their wives by themselves;
    13 the family of the house of Levi by itself,
    and their wives by themselves;
    the family of the Shim‘i by itself,
    and their wives by themselves;
    14 all the remaining families, each by itself,
    and their wives by themselves.
    CJB


    Luke 3:23-38
    23 Yeshua was about thirty years old when he began his public ministry. It was supposed that he was a son of Yosef who was of Eli,
    24 of Mattat, of Levi, of Malki, of Yannai, of Yosef,
    25 of Mattityahu, of Amotz, of Nachum, of Hesli, of Naggai,
    26 of Machat, of Mattityahu, of Shim‘i, of Yosef, of Yodah,
    27 of Yochanan, of Reisha, of Z’rubavel, of Sh’altiel, of Neri,
    28 of Malki, of Addi, of Kosam, of Elmadan, of Er,
    29 of Yeshua, of Eli‘ezer, of Yoram, of Mattat, of Levi,
    30 of Shim‘on, of Y’hudah, of Yosef, of Yonam, of Elyakim,
    31 of Mal’ah, of Manah, of Mattatah, of Natan, of David,
    32 of Yishai, of ‘Oved, of Bo‘az, of Salmon, of Nachshon,
    33 of Amminadav, of Admin, of Arni, of Hetzron, of Peretz, of Y’hudah,
    34 of Ya‘akov, of Yitz’chak, of Avraham, of Terach, of Nachor,
    35 of S’rug, of Re‘u, of Peleg, of ‘Ever, of Shelah,
    36 of Keinan, of Arpakhshad, of Shem, of Noach, of Lemekh,
    37 of Metushelach, of Hanokh, of Yered, of Mahalal’el, of Keinan,
    38 of Enosh, of Shet, of Adam, of God.
    CJB


    Thus, these names are related VERTICALLY in the family tree, not horizontally! That is indicative that they have been resurrected by this point in time since they were all present at the same time to mourn for the One who was pierced as either their "first born son" or their "only son!"

    These prophecies about David are NOT just prophecies that should be about David's Son, the Messiah Yeshua`; they are truly about DAVID WHO WILL REIGN ALONG SIDE OF Yeshua`! And, why not? He's already proven Himself as a capable and trustworthy king who loved God and was said to be "a man after [God's] own heart!" (1 Samuel 13:14)

    Now, I believe that I have shown in previous posts that...
    (1) we are to anticipate the resurrection;
    (2) we are incomplete without our bodies;
    (3) "soul" is a combination of "spirit" and "body," as "breather" is a combination of "breath" and "body";
    (4) "heaven," translated from "ouranos," means the "sky";
    (5) "heavenly"/"celestial," translated from "epouranios," means "from above the sky" or "from space";
    (6) our destiny is NOT "heaven" but the "NEW EARTH AND NEW SKY," as described both by Yochanan (John) in the Revelation, chapters 21 and 22, and by Kefa (Peter) in 2 Peter 3:13;
    (7) the important thing to remember about the Hebrews is that they are MISHPACHAH (FAMILY), and when the Scriptures say that they are "His people," it LITERALLY means that they are HIS FAMILY, and family sticks together and family members stick up for each other; and
    (8) Goyim (Gentiles), as believers in the Messiah Yeshua`, are GRAFTED INTO that family, ADOPTED, as it were (Romans 8-11, Galatians 4, and Ephesians 1-2)!

    This is why Jews who come to believe do NOT become "Jewish Christians," but are rather "Messianic Jews!" They are the "natural branches" "grafted into THEIR OWN Olive Tree!" The major group is the FAMILY of God, and the SUBgroup is that group called "Christians" which consists of Gentile believers, who are "grafted AGAINST NATURE" as "oleander branches" among the cultivated olive branches in that Olive Tree!

    You said, "I do not believe that Christ's sacrifice was retroactive."

    More on this later.
     
  2. Marcus O'Reillius

    Marcus O'Reillius Active Member

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    Brevity is the soul of wit.
     
  3. Retrobyter

    Retrobyter Well-Known Member

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    Shalom, again, Trekson.

    You said, "I do not believe that Christ's sacrifice was retroactive."

    How could it NOT be?! "For it is not possible that the blood of bulls and of goats should take away sins," said the author of Hebrews (Hebrews 10:4).

    How could they look forward to the death of the Messiah through the symbolism of the animal sacrifices if the Messiah's sacrifice wasn't for them as well?! And, WHEN was He sacrificed?

    Revelation 13:8
    8 And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.
    KJV


    Why would it be important for Yochanan (John) to be told to write this?

    Look, consider when Yeshua` died and was buried and resurrected to life: People at that time could have their sins of the past forgiven by the Messiah's death as their Sacrifice for sin, and that Sacrifice could still be applied to sins in their future.

    We in the future, have sins in our past that were DEFINITELY in the future from the Sacrifice for sin that Yeshua` made! ALL of our sins, past, present, and future from our current time perspective were ALL in Yeshua`s future! And, yet, He paid for ALL of them through His Sacrifice!

    The "OT saints" of the past simply had their Sacrifice in their future, and yet, He could pay for ALL of their sins that were definitely in His past!

    And, again, what is important, especially among the Jews and Hebrews, is FAMILY!

    Romans 11:25-29
    25 For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness IN PART is happened to Israel, UNTIL the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.
    26 And so ALL Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob:
    27 For this is my covenant unto them, when I shall take away their sins.
    28 As concerning the gospel, they are enemies for your sakes: but as touching the election, they are beloved for the fathers' sakes.
    29 For the gifts and calling of God are without repentance.
    KJV


    The quotations in verses 26 and 27 are from...

    Isaiah 59:20-21
    20 And the Redeemer (Go'el) shall come to Zion, and unto them that turn from transgression in Jacob, saith the LORD.
    21 As for me, this is my covenant with them, saith the LORD; My spirit that is upon thee, and my words which I have put in thy mouth, shall not depart out of thy mouth, nor out of the mouth of thy seed, nor out of the mouth of thy seed's seed, saith the LORD, from henceforth and for ever.
    KJV


    and
    Isaiah 27:9
    9 By this therefore shall the iniquity of Jacob be purged; and this is all the fruit to take away his sin; when he maketh all the stones of the altar as chalkstones that are beaten in sunder, the groves and images shall not stand up.
    KJV


    God doesn't change His prophecies to accommodate a change in His people, as some teach! He doesn't renege on His promises! The gifts and calling of God are without a change of mind! The children of Ya`aqov (Jacob) are PHYSICALLY and GENETICALLY the LITERAL FAMILY of Yeshua`!

    So, the key question is this: Why would Yeshua` come back to physically reign over Isra'el, His literal family, without the rest of His family present since resurrection is possible through HIM?! Wouldn't He want His mom, His step-dad, His brothers and sisters with Him? Wouldn't He want His grandfathers and grandmothers present at His coronation, not only for Himself but for His mother's and step-father's sakes? Wouldn't He want His great grandfathers and great grandmothers there, too, for His grandfathers' and grandmothers' sakes? Let's keep going back: Wouldn't He want His great great ... great grandfathers and great great ... great grandmothers present, as well? Wouldn't this eventually lead to having the Shim'i there, and Leviy there, and Natan there, and David there, too?

    Shalom, Marcus.

    Oh, read between the verses, if you can't take it.
     
  4. Marcus O'Reillius

    Marcus O'Reillius Active Member

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    Read between the verses? Really... that's where the problem lies and your arguments are lengthy.

    First question is not simple because you interject something not found in the Bible: "ORIGINALLY." Now what's that supposed to mean? So your question is not simple because you put another qualifier into it that is not found in the Bible. So it now becomes a trick question because we're outside the Bible and playing on your terms and those terms are not defined.

    The Dead in Christ - and the Bible does not delineate that as strictly NT Christians at all, indeed, it does indicate in Daniel 12 that an OT prophet, not even counted by the Jews as a prophet, would nevertheless be resurrected with believers in Jesus - are raised from the dead souls to immortal and imperishable bodies -- period. Not originally, replicated, copied or any other term you wish to interject into the text.

    Abraham may or may not be part of this. He may very well be an Elder and numbered among those captives in Jesus' train who are also the 'men wondered at' in Zechariah chapter 3 who witness Jesus' return to Heaven after being resurrected from the grave and meeting Mary in the garden.

    David, in Ezekiel, may be the Prince at the East Gate. There is plenty of speculation among true scholars with advanced theological degrees that he may live in the Millennium period - which is included in the broader period of Jesus' reign.

    As far as your last example: English please! Try to write so the reader can understand you. Using proper Hebrew names is your way of showing off your mastery of language, but you forget that there are also many shades of spelling even among those who can translate the language better than you, so write their names in English.

    I cannot say these individuals are the "original" Dead in Christ; that is a NT term. I know that God judges the heart, and by faith is one judged holy by God.

    Again, Abraham - who knows really. David - maybe not at the resurrection of the "Living" souls to Heaven, but perhaps at the resurrection of the dead to a physical, mortal life on earth during the Millennium.

    The eternal basis does not rule out a Millennium period - that is YOUR eschatological view.
     
  5. Retrobyter

    Retrobyter Well-Known Member

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    Shalom, Marcus.

    Sorry, bro', but my arguments frequently REQUIRE a re-read of the Scriptures that many feel they already "know," but may have missed some points within those Scriptures. Lengthy, yes, but consider how much of what I write is actually my own words. Not that much.

    There's nothing extra-biblical about the word "originally." I'm just pointing out the fact that "Christ," meaning "Messiah," is NOT original with the NT and that there were many believers in the Messiah BEFORE the Messiah came! Wouldn't you agree that a "true believer" is one who understands that there is nothing good in himself and that he must humbly come to God for HIS intervention in his life? Without GOD'S justification of an individual, that person is LOST! David KNEW this! Avraham KNEW this! I would venture to say that EVERY ONE of the saints in the Tanakh (the OT) KNEW this! They trusted God to do for them what they could not do for themselves.

    If you're honest (and I believe you are), you will admit that many Christians today use the word "Christ" with little or no thought to the fact that it means "Messiah." Therefore, they will never make the connection that the "dead in Christ" means the "dead in the Messiah." They will miss the point that the "judgment seat of Christ" is the "judgment seat of the Messiah." They will miss the point that there is a DIRECT link between "Christian" as an adjective and "Messianic" as an adjective.

    Some of what you said just boggles my mind! Abraham MAY be an Elder?! Really?! If HE'S not an Elder, I'll just hang up my spurs and go home! Why is his name "Abraham" after all? Perhaps, we should re-investigate what an "Elder" is? That's NOT a title! That's a statement of fact!

    I'm not impressed by "advanced theological degrees." All that a "degree" is can be found in the fact that it is a certificate that proves that one has been EXPOSED to a certain degree of information. How he TREATS that information makes the difference.

    By the way, "holy" doesn't necessarily mean "righteous." One would HOPE that one who is "holy" is also "righteous," but "holy" means "singled out" or "especially selected" or "someone God has seen fit to work through." Thus, a "holy one" or a "saint" is just one whom God has "singled out." That can be for some particular service of for a particular example. But then, you already knew this, right?
     
  6. Marcus O'Reillius

    Marcus O'Reillius Active Member

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    First thing that glares out from me: what you think you know and what you think others know you count as the truth. You might want to re-think that. Don't believe everything you think.

    Secondly: you don't know who the 24 Elders are - that's why they're men wondered at. I said he could be, and as a candidate for the job, he's certainly well qualified, but the fact is we don't know what role God had decided for him to play. I am not God nor are you, so I stop speaking for God since He hasn't told us who is whom in Heaven as far as the Elders go. He doesn't even specifically list who the Two Witnesses are either and yet men will argue over that too each believing what they say is the truth.

    If you don't at least take direction from people who have studied long and hard, how can you be sharpened? I don't always agree with the consensus of scholars: for instance I do not do a one-for-one equation between the parts of the statue in Daniel 2 to the four beasts of Daniel 7.

    Lastly, "holy" pretty much means that. When God calls us holy, we translate it as "saint." This is true in both words in the Hebrew and the word they use in the Greek. Coincidence? I don't think so. Nothing happens by coincidence. When we believe, God the Father counts Jesus' righteousness unto us. It is if we are seen by Him through Christ's holiness.
     
  7. Trekson

    Trekson Well-Known Member

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    Hi Retro, Okay, this isn’t fair! :( I gave you a ¾ - 1 page response and you fire back with THIRTEEN PAGES!!! Really, you need to find a way to be more direct!

    There are different kinds of resurrections for different purposes. The resurrections that Christ performed were to act as proof of his Messiahship, nothing more, nothing less. They were for a specific point-in-time purpose. None of them should be considered a “role model” for the future resurrection. Let’s take them one at a time.
    Luke 7 – Resurrection: Yes, to prove he was who he said he was.
    Mark 5 – Resurrection: No, (vs. 39) more like a resuscitation.
    John 11 – Resurrection: Yes, to prove he was who he said he was. He could be killed again because it wasn’t a “receive your immortal and become incorruptible body” type of resurrection.
    Matt. 27 – You dropped the ball on this one. Let’s read it the way it was written w/o the verse breakup. Your words: “This was immediately at His death. These resurrected individuals AROSE at this point in time and THEN came out of the graves AFTER His resurrection. Thus, they were brought back to life BEFORE Yeshua`s own resurrection.”

    Not a correct breakdown at all.

    50 Jesus, when he had cried again with a loud voice, yielded up the ghost and behold, the veil of the temple was rent in twain from the top to the bottom; and the earth did quake, and the rocks rent; the graves were opened; and many bodies of the saints which slept arose and came out of the graves (one event at one time, when? >) after his resurrection, and went into the holy city, and appeared unto many. Now when the centurion, and they that were with him, watching Jesus, saw the earthquake, and those things that were done, they feared greatly, saying, Truly this was the Son of God. KJV

    Your words: “All (?) who were raised before Him were raised WITHOUT transformation!”
    There were only 2.

    Concerning this passage: Acts 2:34-35 – “For David is not ascended into the heavens: but he saith himself, The LORD said unto my Lord, Sit thou on my right hand, 35 Until I make thy foes thy footstool.

    Your words concerning this: “This was said AFTER Yeshua`s resurrection! It was said AFTER the ones who were resurrected at Yeshua`s death appeared in Yerushalayim (Jerusalem)! Therefore, neither David nor any of the other OT saints are currently "in heaven!”

    This is not saying that David has not ascended into the heavens. It is saying that while David was still alive he had a vision of the Messiah sitting at the right hand of God.

    Regarding Acts 2:29 – “Men and brethren, let me freely speak unto you of the patriarch David, that he is both dead and buried, and his sepulchre is with us unto this day”
    I got nuthin’

    I don’t know why you gave so much scripture about David. No one is denying that he will be at Christ’s right hand during the millennium.

    Your words: “Thus, these names are related VERTICALLY in the family tree, not horizontally! That is indicative that they have been resurrected by this point in time since they were all present at the same time to mourn for the One who was pierced as either their "first born son" or their "only son!

    Okay, this gets a little confusing. Regarding Luke 3: Does this show a direct line of descendants? Yes. Does it have anything to do with their actual resurrection? No!

    Regarding Zech. 12:10-14: Does this have anything to do with their actual resurrection? Imo, No! Mainly because we probably disagree with the timing of this event. There are a couple of questionable interpretations of two words in this passage. The word “upon” (vs.10) and the word “apart” (vss.12-14). The word “upon” seems to imply they are actually seeing Christ in the physical, however this passage is speaking of the spiritual salvation of Judah, not the physical deliverance; that comes a little later. Many versions word it as “look to me” and I believe that is more in line with the writer’s intent. I believe the timing of this is just before the events of Rev. 12:6, 14. This is after the abomination of desolation is set-up and many in Israel will realize their mistake in trusting in a false messiah (the a/c).

    If you believe these are resurrected OT saints of the families of David, Nathan, Levi, and Shim-e-i…all the families that remain…What are they mourning for? They didn’t have anything to do with the rejection of Christ. Their descendants did. More importantly, it will be the latter day descendants, possibly our generation, that will do so because it will be their ancestors that crucified Christ and continued to do so by denying Christ was their Messiah.

    Secondly, the word “apart”. This can have many interpretations. The KJ implication is that they each mourned separately, however, it could also be translated as “a branch” (of the family tree, perhaps). I think the phrase, “all the families that remain” brings us to a non-resurrection identity.

    Regarding your final list of previous posts. We agree on points 1-3, point 4 & 5, I’ve shown can also mean the “abode of God”. Point 6, we continue to disagree.

    Points 7-8 – “(7) the important thing to remember about the Hebrews is that they are MISHPACHAH (FAMILY), and when the Scriptures say that they are "His people," it LITERALLY means that they are HIS FAMILY, and family sticks together and family members stick up for each other; and
    (8) Goyim (Gentiles), as believers in the Messiah Yeshua`, are GRAFTED INTO that family, ADOPTED, as it were (Romans 8-11, Galatians 4, and Ephesians 1-2)!

    Your words: “This is why Jews who come to believe do NOT become "Jewish Christians," but are rather "Messianic Jews!" They are the "natural branches" "grafted into THEIR OWN Olive Tree!" The major group is the FAMILY of God, and the SUBgroup is that group called "Christians" which consists of Gentile believers, who are "grafted AGAINST NATURE" as "oleander branches" among the cultivated olive branches in that Olive Tree!”

    I think your understanding of this is prejudiced by your self-identity. Nowadays, it is the rare family that “family sticks together and… stick up for each other.” However…

    What does Christ say about this? Matt. 12:46-50 – “While he yet talked to the people, behold, his mother and his brethren stood without, desiring to speak with him. 47 Then one said unto him, Behold, thy mother and thy brethren stand without, desiring to speak with thee. 48 But he answered and said unto him that told him, Who is my mother? and who are my brethren? 49 And he stretched forth his hand toward his disciples, and said, Behold my mother and my brethren! 50 For whosoever shall do the will of my Father which is in heaven, the same is my brother, and sister, and mother.”

    Now who does Jesus consider family? “whosoever shall do the will of my Father which is in heaven” The separation between Jews and Christians as you try to picture it, just doesn’t exist. Christians are NOT a “subgroup”!!! Bloodlines mean absolutely NOTHING. This is affirmed by Paul in Gal. 3:28-29 – “There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus. 29 And if ye be Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise.”

    As grafts, we are cautioned not to get “uppity” about our standing with Christ and the same goes for Messianic Jews as well. In your terminology, Christians can be called Messianic Gentiles. Without Christ neither of us is worth anything but with Christ we are brothers/sisters of equal standing and equal inheritance not only of each other but with Christ as well. Rom. 8:16-17 – “The Spirit itself beareth witness with our spirit, that we are the children of God: 17 And if children, then heirs; heirs of God, and joint-heirs with Christ; if so be that we suffer with him, that we may be also glorified together.”
     
  8. rockytopva

    rockytopva Well-Known Member Encounter Team

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    Thanks... But of that time... We don't know! If we did know then Christ does not come as a thief... MacArthur has also written many books and commentaries. There is a book called "Because the time is near: John MacArthur explains the Book of Revelation." It is understandable to the mind and uplifting to the spirit. As we near the chapter of Revelation that depicts the second coming, MacArthur takes a moment to explain why the rapture is different from the second coming, and why it will happen prior to the Tribulation:

    "The second coming must be distinguished from the rapture of the church prior to the seven-year tribulation. At the rapture, Christ comes for His saints (John 14:3; 1 Thessalonians 4:16-17). At the second coming, He comes with them. At the rapture, Christ meets His saints in the air (1 Thessalonians 4:17) to take them to heaven (John 14:2-3). At the second coming, He descends with them from heaven to the earth. (Zechariah 14:4)."

    "Some attempt to harmonize those two distinctions by arguing that believers meet Christ in the air, then descend to earth to with Him. By so doing, they essentially make the rapture and the second coming the same event. But that view trivializes the rapture. There is not a hint of judgment in passages describing the rapture (John 14:1-3; 1 Thessalonians 4:13-18, but judgment plays a prominent role in the second coming (Revelation 19:11; Revelation 15, Revelation 17-21.) The dramatic signs accompanying the second coming, such as the darkening of the sun and the moon, and the disruption of the “powers of the heavens” (Matthew 24: 29-30), are not mentioned in the passages describing the rapture. In its description of the second coming, Revelation 19 does not mention a rapture of living believers (1 Corinthians 15:51-52), or a resurrection of dead believers (1 Thessalonians 4:16)."
     
  9. Retrobyter

    Retrobyter Well-Known Member

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    Shalom, Trekson.

    Okay, here we go.

    First, I'm not going to fight you about the "resuscitation" interpretation of Mark 5. Just know this: If the Messiah Yeshua` wasn't there, where would the girl have been? If NOT dead, she would have been dead in reality soon enough. No one else could have resuscitated her.

    Second, as far as only 2 resurrections are concerned, those are the 2 (or 3) that we are TOLD about! Remember Yeshua`s words (same incident, two accounts):

    Matthew 11:2-6
    2 Now when John had heard in the prison the works of Christ, he sent two of his disciples,
    3 And said unto him, Art thou he that should come, or do we look for another?
    4 Jesus answered and said unto them, Go and shew John again those things which ye do hear and see:
    5 The blind receive their sight, and the lame walk, the lepers are cleansed, and the deaf hear, the dead are raised up, and the poor have the gospel preached to them.
    6 And blessed is he, whosoever shall not be offended in me.
    KJV

    Luke 7:19-23
    19 And John calling unto him two of his disciples sent them to Jesus, saying, Art thou he that should come? or look we for another?
    20 When the men were come unto him, they said, John Baptist hath sent us unto thee, saying, Art thou he that should come? or look we for another?
    21 And in that same hour he cured many of their infirmities and plagues, and of evil spirits; and unto many that were blind he gave sight.
    22 Then Jesus answering said unto them, Go your way, and tell John what things ye have seen and heard; how that the blind see, the lame walk, the lepers are cleansed, the deaf hear, the dead are raised, to the poor the gospel is preached.
    23 And blessed is he, whosoever shall not be offended in me.
    KJV

    So, there were probably many more incidents that were NOT recorded. Remember, too, John's words:

    John 21:25
    25 And there are also many other things which Jesus did, the which, if they should be written every one, I suppose that even the world itself could not contain the books that should be written. Amen.
    KJV


    Also, remember that Elijah and Elisha ALSO raised people back from the dead!

    1 Kings 17:17-24
    17 And it came to pass after these things, that the son of the woman, the mistress of the house, fell sick; and his sickness was so sore, that there was no breath left in him.
    18 And she said unto Elijah, What have I to do with thee, O thou man of God? art thou come unto me to call my sin to remembrance, and to slay my son?
    19 And he said unto her, Give me thy son. And he took him out of her bosom, and carried him up into a loft, where he abode, and laid him upon his own bed.
    20 And he cried unto the LORD, and said, O LORD my God, hast thou also brought evil upon the widow with whom I sojourn, by slaying her son?
    21 And he stretched himself upon the child three times, and cried unto the LORD, and said, O LORD my God, I pray thee, let this child's soul come into him again.
    22 And the LORD heard the voice of Elijah; and the soul of the child came into him again, and he revived.
    23 And Elijah took the child, and brought him down out of the chamber into the house, and delivered him unto his mother: and Elijah said, See, thy son liveth.
    24 And the woman said to Elijah, Now by this I know that thou art a man of God, and that the word of the LORD in thy mouth is truth.
    KJV


    2 Kings 2:9-12
    9 And it came to pass, when they were gone over, that Elijah said unto Elisha, Ask what I shall do for thee, before I be taken away from thee. And Elisha said, I pray thee, let a double portion of thy spirit be upon me.
    10 And he said, Thou hast asked a hard thing: nevertheless, if thou see me when I am taken from thee, it shall be so unto thee; but if not, it shall not be so.
    11 And it came to pass, as they still went on, and talked, that, behold, there appeared a chariot of fire, and horses of fire, and parted them both asunder; and Elijah went up by a whirlwind into heaven.
    12 And Elisha saw it, and he cried, My father, my father, the chariot of Israel, and the horsemen thereof. And he saw him no more: and he took hold of his own clothes, and rent them in two pieces.
    KJV


    2 Kings 4:12-37
    12 And he said to Gehazi his servant, Call this Shunammite. And when he had called her, she stood before him.
    13 And he said unto him, Say now unto her, Behold, thou hast been careful for us with all this care; what is to be done for thee? wouldest thou be spoken for to the king, or to the captain of the host? And she answered, I dwell among mine own people.
    14 And he said, What then is to be done for her? And Gehazi answered, Verily she hath no child, and her husband is old.
    15 And he said, Call her. And when he had called her, she stood in the door.
    16 And he said, About this season, according to the time of life, thou shalt embrace a son. And she said, Nay, my lord, thou man of God, do not lie unto thine handmaid.
    17 And the woman conceived, and bare a son at that season that Elisha had said unto her, according to the time of life.
    18 And when the child was grown, it fell on a day, that he went out to his father to the reapers.
    19 And he said unto his father, My head, my head. And he said to a lad, Carry him to his mother.
    20 And when he had taken him, and brought him to his mother, he sat on her knees till noon, and then died.
    21 And she went up, and laid him on the bed of the man of God, and shut the door upon him, and went out.
    22 And she called unto her husband, and said, Send me, I pray thee, one of the young men, and one of the asses, that I may run to the man of God, and come again.
    23 And he said, Wherefore wilt thou go to him to day? it is neither new moon, nor sabbath. And she said, It shall be well.
    24 Then she saddled an ass, and said to her servant, Drive, and go forward; slack not thy riding for me, except I bid thee.
    25 So she went and came unto the man of God to mount Carmel. And it came to pass, when the man of God saw her afar off, that he said to Gehazi his servant, Behold, yonder is that Shunammite:
    26 Run now, I pray thee, to meet her, and say unto her, Is it well with thee? is it well with thy husband? is it well with the child? And she answered, It is well.
    27 And when she came to the man of God to the hill, she caught him by the feet: but Gehazi came near to thrust her away. And the man of God said, Let her alone; for her soul is vexed within her: and the LORD hath hid it from me, and hath not told me.
    28 Then she said, Did I desire a son of my lord? did I not say, Do not deceive me?
    29 Then he said to Gehazi, Gird up thy loins, and take my staff in thine hand, and go thy way: if thou meet any man, salute him not; and if any salute thee, answer him not again: and lay my staff upon the face of the child.
    30 And the mother of the child said, As the LORD liveth, and as thy soul liveth, I will not leave thee. And he arose, and followed her.
    31 And Gehazi passed on before them, and laid the staff upon the face of the child; but there was neither voice, nor hearing. Wherefore he went again to meet him, and told him, saying, The child is not awaked.
    32 And when Elisha was come into the house, behold, the child was dead, and laid upon his bed.
    33 He went in therefore, and shut the door upon them twain, and prayed unto the LORD.
    34 And he went up, and lay upon the child, and put his mouth upon his mouth, and his eyes upon his eyes, and his hands upon his hands: and he stretched himself upon the child; and the flesh of the child waxed warm.
    35 Then he returned, and walked in the house to and fro; and went up, and stretched himself upon him: and the child sneezed seven times, and the child opened his eyes.
    36 And he called Gehazi, and said, Call this Shunammite. So he called her. And when she was come in unto him, he said, Take up thy son.
    37 Then she went in, and fell at his feet, and bowed herself to the ground, and took up her son, and went out.
    KJV


    2 Kings 13:20-21
    20 And Elisha died, and they buried him. And the bands of the Moabites invaded the land at the coming in of the year.
    21 And it came to pass, as they were burying a man, that, behold, they spied a band of men; and they cast the man into the sepulchre of Elisha: and when the man was let down, and touched the bones of Elisha, he revived, and stood up on his feet.
    KJV


    prompting the author of Hebrews to note in the "Faith Chapter":

    Hebrews 11:35
    35 Women received their dead raised to life again: and others were tortured, not accepting deliverance; that they might obtain a better resurrection:
    KJV


    So, there were other examples of resurrection, too, and NONE of them were with transformation.

    As far as "dropping the ball" on Matthew 27, don't trust the English; look at the Greek:

    All the verbs in verses 51 and 52 are aorist, indicative, passive. Only the verbs in verse 53 are aorist, participle, active! There is also a Greek "comma" following verse 52. Thus, the verbs in 51-52 are all of the same tense/mood/voice implying that they are related! Only the verbs of 53, exelthontes and eiseelthon, are active! That means that THEY are the verbs related to the time "after His resurrection."

    As far as Acts 2:29-35 is concerned, follow the reasoned progression:

    Acts 2:29-35
    29 Men and brethren, let me freely speak unto you of the patriarch David, that he is both dead and buried, and his sepulchre is with us unto this day.
    30 Therefore being a prophet, and knowing that God had sworn with an oath to him, that of the fruit of his loins, according to the flesh, he would raise up Christ to sit on his throne;
    31 He seeing this before spake of the resurrection of Christ, that his soul was not left in hell, neither his flesh did see corruption.
    32 This Jesus hath God raised up, whereof we all are witnesses.
    33 Therefore being by the right hand of God exalted, and having received of the Father the promise of the Holy Ghost, he hath shed forth this, which ye now see and hear.
    34 For David IS not ascended into the heavens: but he saith himself, The Lord said unto my Lord, Sit thou on my right hand,
    35 Until I make thy foes thy footstool.
    KJV

    He pointed out that David was dead and buried. One could go to his sepulcher. THEN, he pointed out that David "is not ascended into the heavens." Not "WAS not ascended" but rather "IS not ascended!" The Greek word for "(he) is ascended" is anebee (spelled alpha-nu-epsilon-beta-eta, and 3rd person, singular, aorist tense, indicative mood, active voice of anabainoo). That's why you "got nuthin" on verse 29, because you weren't letting it be a part of the logic that Peter was using!

    And, again, you're turning a blind eye to the simple logic that is found in Zechariah 12:10-14. Follow along again:
    The names found in Zechariah 12 are "Daaviyd," spelled in Hebrew, "dalet-qamets-vav-chireq-yod-dalet," "Naataan," spelled "nun-qamets-tav-qamets-nun," "Leeviy," spelled "lamed-tsere-vav-chireq-yod," and "haShim`iy," spelled "hei-patach-shin-chireq-mem-sheva-ayin-chireq-yod." (This last name, btw, has the possessive ending "-iy" as well as the definite article attached, "ha-." Thus, it is a FAMILY GROUP and not a single person.) I can't give you the exact reasons why I believe this, but I believe that "Daaviyd" was specified because the "One who was pierced" was of his lineage, that "Naataan" was specified because he was the son of Daaviyd which was the lineage of Miryam (Mary) through whom the Messiah would come, that "Leeviy" was specified because he was the one who was taken to Babylon during the captivity, and that the "Shim`iy" were specified because they were the ones alive at the time that Z'kharyahu wrote this prophecy.

    Although Helenized into the Koine Greek, these are the same names as found in Luke 3. This shows us explicitly that they were vertically related in the Messiah's family tree. Now, David's son, Nathan, was neither his firstborn (Absalom) nor his son who inherited the Kingdom (Solomon), but he WAS the son whose family survived the captivity without as many incidents and who also gave rise to the later ruler of Y'hudah, Zerubbabel. However, the other families in this lineage had children, too, and each of them were either their firstborn son if they had more than one son or they were their only son! Think about how David carried on at the death of his firstborn, Absalom! THIS is what is meant by "mourning for him!" He was their GRANDCHILD, however many GREAT's removed! How would YOU feel to see YOUR flesh and blood marked up like Yeshua` was wounded?! Remember: He will carry His wounds for ALL ETERNITY! That's not just the nail prints in His hands and feet, but also the puncture wound in His side, the stripes on His back, and the holes in His scalp from the thorns, etc! And, then think about the guilt they would have felt to know that some of their OTHER grandchildren did that to Him, the One they were SUPPOSED to accept as their King!

    Concerning Matthew 12:46-50, you're ignoring important points: Yeshua` did NOT disown His mother, His brothers, or His sisters! Consider His tender care for His mother at His own death:

    John 19:25-27
    25 Now there stood by the cross of Jesus his mother, and his mother's sister, Mary the wife of Cleophas, and Mary Magdalene.
    26 When Jesus therefore saw his mother, and the disciple standing by, whom he loved, he saith unto his mother, Woman, behold thy son!
    27 Then saith he to the disciple, Behold thy mother! And from that hour that disciple took her unto his own home.
    KJV


    He implicitly linked His mother, Miryam (Mary), to the disciple whom He loved, Yochanan (John), and basically was telling Yochanan, "Get her out of here. Don't let her suffer." He loved His mother! She was and always will be important to Him!

    Finally, as far as "being grafted in," it's really not about either group the Jewish believers or the Gentile believers. I agree, we are all on the same level in the Messiah; HOWEVER, my argument is about the identity of the OLIVE TREE! The "Olive Tree" is NOT "Christianity!" It is the FAMILY OF ISRA'EL! Get that right, and all the rest falls into place.
     
  10. Trekson

    Trekson Well-Known Member

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    Hi Retro, Response to part 2

    Your words: You said, "I do not believe that Christ's sacrifice was retroactive." How could it NOT be?! "For it is not possible that the blood of bulls and of goats should take away sins," said the author of Hebrews (Hebrews 10:4). How could they look forward to the death of the Messiah through the symbolism of the animal sacrifices if the Messiah's sacrifice wasn't for them as well?! And, WHEN was He sacrificed?

    Israel was NOT looking forward to the death of the Messiah. The knowledge that the sacrifices were symbolic of a future reality was not known to them. If it were, they would have acknowledged Christ as Messiah. They were looking for a political/military Saviour. The sacrifices were a covering, as Christ’s blood is a covering for us. In what manner are our sins “taken away”? It is only our past sins, at the point of salvation, that are forgiven and thus taken away from our record. They are blotted out. (Acts 3:19). Each time we sin, it is put in the book and then when we repent and ask for forgiveness, they are again blotted out. We know that forgiveness is available for future sins but we can’t just ignore them. Repentance is an ongoing process in the life of a believer as we mature and more and more sins/unChristlike attitudes are revealed.

    Revelation 13:8
    8 And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world. KJV

    Was He literally slain from the foundation of the world? Of course not. This is just showing that it was always His destiny through God’s foreknowledge of what would come.

    Your words: “ Look, consider when Yeshua` died and was buried and resurrected to life: People at that time could have their sins of the past forgiven by the Messiah's death as their Sacrifice for sin, and that Sacrifice could still be applied to sins in their future. We in the future, have sins in our past that were DEFINITELY in the future from the Sacrifice for sin that Yeshua` made! ALL of our sins, past, present, and future from our current time perspective were ALL in Yeshua`s future! And, yet, He paid for ALL of them through His Sacrifice!

    We agree.

    Your words: “The "OT saints" of the past simply had their Sacrifice in their future, and yet, He could pay for ALL of their sins that were definitely in His past!”

    I disagree, the OT saints will be/were judged by the law. There is no grace for those who lived at that time.

    Romans 11:29 “ For the gifts and calling of God are without repentance.” KJV

    Isaiah 59:20 And the Redeemer (Go'el) shall come to Zion, and unto them that turn from transgression in Jacob, saith the LORD.

    Your words: “God doesn't change His prophecies to accommodate a change in His people, as some teach! He doesn't renege on His promises! The gifts and calling of God are without a change of mind! The children of Ya`aqov (Jacob) are PHYSICALLY and GENETICALLY the LITERAL FAMILY of Yeshua`!...So, the key question is this: Why would Yeshua` come back to physically reign over Isra'el, His literal family, without the rest of His family present since resurrection is possible through HIM?!... Wouldn't this eventually lead to having the Shim'i there, and Leviy there, and Natan there, and David there, too?”

    Christ’s lineage does NOT begin w/ Abraham, it begins w/ Adam, thus all of humanity are genetically in His bloodline. Israel had/has a purpose. We all would like all of our family to be with us for eternity but that is unlikely to happen.

    Is. 59 has a caveat: “them that turn from transgression” which in modern day lingo equals “repenting of their sins”. Without repentance, there is no “good” eternity awaiting them. As I’ve stated before the ALL of Israel is only “all” those that are left to enter the millennium as living, breathing humanity. All the families mentioned probably have living descendants and it is to those whom this passage is speaking. Will some of His family from the OT be considered righteous under the law and therefore worthy of resurrection? Of course! But if God were to give members of “his family” a free pass because of bloodlines then that would disqualify Him from being a fair, honest, righteous Judge. As God says, “He is not willing that any should perish…”and even when He needs to send the majority to their “just reward”, unpleasant as it may be, that doesn’t mean He stops loving them. He is just judging them perfectly, which because of His character, he must do!
     
  11. Retrobyter

    Retrobyter Well-Known Member

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    Shalom, Trekson.

    On these points, I will VEHEMENTLY disagree! These are "game-changers!" First of all, Isra'el was DEFINITELY looking forward to the Messiah as the One who would bruise the serpent's head although it would cost Him a bruised heel! He was "telegraphed" in the prophecies since the first words of prophecy to Eve! Are you "meshuggah" (crazy)?! The Torah is FULL of such prophecies! This is what comes from not studying the prophecies of the Tanakh (the OT) as one should! And, one should NOT base Isra'el's historical outlook on the Messiah on the actions and beliefs of modern-day Jews or even the Jews of Yeshua`s day! The Jews of Yeshua`s day had a POLITICAL BIAS through which they kicked against what they deep-down KNEW to be true from what they had been taught from rabbis in the past and even in their own day:

    John 11:47-54
    47 Then gathered the chief priests and the Pharisees a council, and said, What do we? for this man doeth many miracles.
    48 If we let him thus alone, all men will believe on him: and the Romans shall come and take away both our place and nation.
    49 And one of them, named Caiaphas, being the high priest that same year, said unto them, Ye know nothing at all,
    50 Nor consider that it is expedient for us, that one man should die for the people, and that the whole nation perish not.
    51 And this spake he not of himself: but being high priest that year, he prophesied that Jesus should die for that nation;
    52 And not for that nation only, but that also he should gather together in one the children of God that were scattered abroad.
    53 Then from that day forth they took counsel together for to put him to death.
    54 Jesus therefore walked no more openly among the Jews; but went thence unto a country near to the wilderness, into a city called Ephraim, and there continued with his disciples.
    KJV


    Do you think he was the ONLY high priest to prophesy such things to the people?

    Haven't you ever read Micah 6:7-8?

    Micah 6:7-8
    7 Will the LORD be pleased with thousands of rams, or with ten thousands of rivers of oil? shall I give my firstborn for my transgression, the fruit of my body for the sin of my soul?
    8 He hath shewed thee, O man, what is good; and what doth the LORD require of thee, but to do justly, and to love mercy, and to walk humbly with thy God?
    KJV


    Haven't you ever read the words of David?

    Psalm 51:1-7
    1 Have mercy upon me, O God, according to thy lovingkindness: according unto the multitude of thy tender mercies blot out my transgressions.
    2 Wash me throughly from mine iniquity, and cleanse me from my sin.
    3 For I acknowledge my transgressions: and my sin is ever before me.
    4 Against thee, thee only, have I sinned, and done this evil in thy sight: that thou mightest be justified when thou speakest, and be clear when thou judgest.
    5 Behold, I was shapen in iniquity; and in sin did my mother conceive me.
    6 Behold, thou desirest truth in the inward parts: and in the hidden part thou shalt make me to know wisdom.
    7 Purge me with hyssop, and I shall be clean: wash me, and I shall be whiter than snow.
    KJV


    Psalm 31:1-3
    1 In thee, O LORD, do I put my trust; let me never be ashamed: deliver me in thy righteousness.
    2 Bow down thine ear to me; deliver me speedily: be thou my strong rock, for an house of defence to save me.
    3 For thou art my rock and my fortress; therefore for thy name's sake lead me, and guide me.
    KJV


    Psalm 32:1-2
    1 Blessed is he whose transgression is forgiven, whose sin is covered.
    2 Blessed is the man unto whom the Lord imputeth not iniquity, and in whose spirit there is no guile.
    KJV


    And this is just a sampling! He was the king of Isra'el! He was a psalmist! Don't you think he would teach the rest of Isra'el what he had learned of God? In fact, psalms are musical, teaching tools to help people remember what they are taught!

    Remember Isaiah 53?

    Isaiah 53:1-12
    1 Who hath believed our report? and to whom is the arm of the LORD revealed?
    2 For he shall grow up before him as a tender plant, and as a root out of a dry ground: he hath no form nor comeliness; and when we shall see him, there is no beauty that we should desire him.
    3 He is despised and rejected of men; a man of sorrows, and acquainted with grief: and we hid as it were our faces from him; he was despised, and we esteemed him not.
    4 Surely he hath borne our griefs, and carried our sorrows: yet we did esteem him stricken, smitten of God, and afflicted.
    5 But he was wounded for our transgressions, he was bruised for our iniquities: the chastisement of our peace was upon him; and with his stripes we are healed.
    6 All we like sheep have gone astray; we have turned every one to his own way; and the Lord hath laid on him the iniquity of us all.
    7 He was oppressed, and he was afflicted, yet he opened not his mouth: he is brought as a lamb to the slaughter, and as a sheep before her shearers is dumb, so he openeth not his mouth.
    8 He was taken from prison and from judgment: and who shall declare his generation? for he was cut off out of the land of the living: for the transgression of my people was he stricken.
    9 And he made his grave with the wicked, and with the rich in his death; because he had done no violence, neither was any deceit in his mouth.
    10 Yet it pleased the LORD to bruise him; he hath put him to grief: when thou shalt make his soul an offering for sin, he shall see his seed, he shall prolong his days, and the pleasure of the LORD shall prosper in his hand.
    11 He shall see of the travail of his soul, and shall be satisfied: by his knowledge shall my righteous servant justify many; for he shall bear their iniquities.
    12 Therefore will I divide him a portion with the great, and he shall divide the spoil with the strong; because he hath poured out his soul unto death: and he was numbered with the transgressors; and he bare the sin of many, and made intercession for the transgressors.
    KJV


    NO ONE has EVER been justified by the Law! EVERYONE has ALWAYS been justified by God's grace! Don't you pay attention to the words of Paul?

    Romans 3:20-28
    20 Therefore by the deeds of the law there shall NO flesh be justified in his sight: for by the law is the knowledge of sin.
    21 But now the righteousness of God without (outside of) the law is manifested, being witnessed by the law and the prophets;
    22 Even the righteousness of God which is by faith of Jesus Christ unto all and upon all them that believe: for there is no difference:
    23 For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God;
    24 Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus:
    25 Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God;
    26 To declare, I say, at this time his righteousness: that he might be just, and the justifier of him which believeth in Jesus.
    27 Where is boasting then? It is excluded. By what law? of works? Nay: but by the law of faith.
    28 Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith without (outside of) the deeds of the law.
    KJV


    Remember Yeshua`s words about the Pharisee and the Publican:
    Luke 18:9-14
    9 And he spake this parable unto certain which trusted in themselves that they were righteous, and despised others:
    10 Two men went up into the temple to pray; the one a Pharisee, and the other a publican.
    11 The Pharisee stood and prayed thus with himself, God, I thank thee, that I am not as other men are, extortioners, unjust, adulterers, or even as this publican.
    12 I fast twice in the week, I give tithes of all that I possess.
    13 And the publican, standing afar off, would not lift up so much as his eyes unto heaven, but smote upon his breast, saying, God be merciful to me a sinner.
    14 I tell you, this man went down to his house justified rather than the other: for every one that exalteth himself shall be abased; and he that humbleth himself shall be exalted.
    KJV

    Furthermore, you've got Romans 11:29 ALL wrong! It's not "the gifts and calling of God are without (man's) repentance"; it's "the gifts and calling of God are without (GOD'S) repentance!" Paul is talking about GOD not changing His mind about the gifts and calling He makes to and of men, such as with the Isra'elites!

    Your words: "It is only our past sins, at the point of salvation, that are forgiven and thus taken away from our record. They are blotted out. (Acts 3:19). Each time we sin, it is put in the book and then when we repent and ask for forgiveness, they are again blotted out. We know that forgiveness is available for future sins but we can’t just ignore them. Repentance is an ongoing process in the life of a believer as we mature and more and more sins/unChristlike attitudes are revealed."

    This is DEAD WRONG! That is the Arminian position, but it is NOT the Calvinist position!

    Let me ask it this way: When did the Messiah (the Christ) die for our sins? Approximately 2000 years ago, right? How many of our sins were in the future THEN? All of them, right? If God's Sacrifice for sin in His only Son didn't pay for ALL of them, it didn't pay for ANY of them! It's not based on when WE make a decision! It's based on when GOD justified us!

    2 Timothy 1:8-11
    8 Be not thou therefore ashamed of the testimony of our Lord, nor of me his prisoner: but be thou partaker of the afflictions of the gospel according to the power of God;
    9 Who hath saved us, and called us with an holy calling, not according to our works, but according to his own purpose and grace, which was given us in Christ Jesus before the world began,
    10 But is now made manifest by the appearing of our Saviour Jesus Christ, who hath abolished death, and hath brought life and immortality to light through the gospel:
    11 Whereunto I am appointed a preacher, and an apostle, and a teacher of the Gentiles.
    KJV


    Look at Isaiah 53 above. It is GOD who justifies us based on the obedience of Yeshua` the Messiah on the cross. Consider Paul's words to the Galatians:

    Galatians 3:1-8
    3 O foolish Galatians, who hath bewitched you, that ye should not obey the truth, before whose eyes Jesus Christ hath been evidently set forth, crucified among you?
    2 This only would I learn of you, Received ye the Spirit by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith?
    3 Are ye so foolish? having begun in the Spirit, are ye now made perfect (mature) by the flesh?
    4 Have ye suffered so many things in vain? if it be yet in vain.
    5 He therefore that ministereth to you the Spirit, and worketh miracles among you, doeth he it by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith?
    6 Even as Abraham believed God, and it was accounted to him for righteousness.
    7 Know ye therefore that they which are of faith, the same are the children of Abraham.
    8 And the scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the heathen through faith, preached before the gospel unto Abraham, saying, In thee shall all nations be blessed.
    KJV


    And, you have the wrong take on 1 John 1:9!

    Hal Lindsey was the first one to point it out to me, but the verbs there are aorist subjunctive active verbs! The text should read more like, "If we may acknowledge (agree with God about) our sins, He is trustworthy and righteous and MAY FORGIVE US AT ONCE our sins, and MAY CLEANSE US AT ONCE from all unrighteousness." Simply put, once we acknowledge that what we have done is ... yes ... indeed a sin, THEN God is FREE to count it among the sins paid for! He's not forgiving us again; He's counting new offenses among those already forgiven!

    Don't get me wrong. While SOME might "question your salvation," that's not what's at stake here. What's at stake is your confidence in eternal security and the fact that "God isn't mad at you anymore!" This will also affect your effectiveness as a believer, and it will give haSatan the edge he needs to derail you in your "Christian walk!"
     
  12. Trekson

    Trekson Well-Known Member

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    Hi Retro, Response to post #49

    Your words: “Second, as far as only 2 resurrections are concerned, those are the 2 (or 3) that we are TOLD about! Remember Yeshua`s words (same incident, two accounts):”

    I concede there were more than a couple of resurrections. I’m aware of the OT ones but we weren’t talking about them. The fact is, Matt. 27 is the only passage that speaks of a mass resurrection.

    Your words: “As far as "dropping the ball" on Matthew 27, don't trust the English; look at the Greek:”
    Please don’t be offended, but I believe the bible was written in simple language that the common man would understand. I’m pretty sure God knew that the vast majority of the readers of His word wouldn’t be Hebrew and Greek scholars. Imo, in most cases, the simplest explanation is likely the correct one.

    Regarding this verse: Acts 2 :34-35 – “For David IS not ascended into the heavens: (You are highlighting the wrong part. This is not Paul saying that David is not resurrected. This next part is what Paul is speaking about) but he saith himself, The Lord said unto my Lord, Sit thou on my right hand, 35 Until I make thy foes thy footstool. (This is just affirming that David was still alive when he made the following observation/prophecy…) The Lord said unto my Lord, Sit thou on my right hand, 35 Until I make thy foes thy footstool”

    I guess a lot boils down to how you interpret this passage: Matt. 17:3 – “And, behold, there appeared unto them Moses and Elias talking with him.”
    Now were these souls or were they looking into the future of the “close in time” resurrection? Why would this warning be given if it wasn’t a picture of the resurrection. Vs. 9 – “And as they came down from the mountain, Jesus charged them, saying, Tell the vision to no man, until the Son of man be risen again from the dead.”

    Your words: “And, again, you're turning a blind eye to the simple logic that is found in Zechariah 12:10-14. Follow along again:
    The names found in Zechariah 12 are "Daaviyd," spelled in Hebrew, "dalet-qamets-vav-chireq-yod-dalet," "Naataan," spelled "nun-qamets-tav-qamets-nun," "Leeviy," spelled "lamed-tsere-vav-chireq-yod," and "haShim`iy," spelled "hei-patach-shin-chireq-mem-sheva-ayin-chireq-yod." (This last name, btw, has the possessive ending "-iy" as well as the definite article attached, "ha-." Thus, it is a FAMILY GROUP and not a single person.) I can't give you the exact reasons why I believe this, but I believe that "Daaviyd" was specified because the "One who was pierced" was of his lineage, that "Naataan" was specified because he was the son of Daaviyd which was the lineage of Miryam (Mary) through whom the Messiah would come, that "Leeviy" was specified because he was the one who was taken to Babylon during the captivity, and that the "Shim`iy" were specified because they were the ones alive at the time that Z'kharyahu wrote this prophecy.

    We just view this differently. You see it as the past brought to the future and I see it referencing the families in the future only. Does the line of these four live on? I believe it does and is speaking of the present day descendants however, I do believe that the resurrected members of those families will mourn as well until Christ wipes away their tears.

    Your words: “He was their GRANDCHILD, however many GREAT's removed! How would YOU feel to see YOUR flesh and blood marked up like Yeshua` was wounded?! Remember: He will carry His wounds for ALL ETERNITY! That's not just the nail prints in His hands and feet, but also the puncture wound in His side, the stripes on His back, and the holes in His scalp from the thorns, etc! And, then think about the guilt they would have felt to know that some of their OTHER grandchildren did that to Him, the One they were SUPPOSED to accept as their King!”

    I don’t disagree, but I really don’t think their mourning will be any more grievous than all of ours when we actually see what He went through for us.

    Your words: “Concerning Matthew 12:46-50, you're ignoring important points: Yeshua` did NOT disown His mother, His brothers, or His sisters! Consider His tender care for His mother at His own death:”

    I never implied that Jesus was disowning his family. I was just pointing out that he considers ALL of us, Jew and Gentile alike as His Family

    Your words: “Finally, as far as "being grafted in," it's really not about either group the Jewish believers or the Gentile believers. I agree, we are all on the same level in the Messiah; HOWEVER, my argument is about the identity of the OLIVE TREE! The "Olive Tree" is NOT "Christianity!" It is the FAMILY OF ISRA'EL! Get that right, and all the rest falls into place.”

    This is where I believe you get it wrong. The tree is only a metaphor and Israel is never described as the tree but only as branches. Christ is the root and the “fatness” of the tree (trunk) is what the “branches” are “partaking” of (vs. 17) The “tree” is the “Way of God” (the way).
    There was a time when the only “way” was thru Israel and the laws that God gave them. They were the only nation that God reserved unto Himself. That and that their relationship w/ God are what qualifies them as the “natural branches”. There were gentiles in the OT that were grafted into the tree because of their faith in the Hebrew God such as Ruth. The branches are never nations or tribes, they are all individuals.

    ALL of Israel was never ALL of the olive tree. Perhaps at birth, they ALL qualified to be branches but how they lived their lives in the OT defined whether they were cut off or not. Nothing implies that being “cut off” began with the rejection of Christ. What “began” is that Gentiles now had a mass opportunity to be grafted in because of our acceptance of Christ as Lord and Savior.

    Only those who had a right relationship with God were part of that tree and for a time the vast majority of the branches were Israeli, even the first few years after Christ’s resurrection. The individuals who are broken off, are broken because of unbelief (vs.20). Not as nations or tribes or families, just individuals. Only “individual” gentile believers are grafted in because of their belief and faith in Christ (vs. 20)! The notion of eternal salvation goes “out the window” w/ vs. 22 which tells us that if we lose our “right standing” w/ God we can be “cut off” (rejected). So, once saved, always saved is not a reality! When an Israeli finds Christ and accepts him as the Messiah, then and only then can they be grafted back into the “way”. I think it may be easier for them to be grafted in because the HS gives them a sense of Welcome Home, where Gentiles get the sense of Welcome to the Family, if that makes sense to you.

    The notion that all those who ruled “wickedly” like Jehosaphat and Jezebel to name a couple and all the generations of Israelites who abandoned God to worship pagan gods and perform pagan rituals and paid no heed to scriptures get a free pass because they happen to share some ancestral blood with Christ… now that’s “meshuggah”!!
     
  13. Trekson

    Trekson Well-Known Member

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    Hi Retro, Your words: “On these points, I will VEHEMENTLY disagree! These are "game-changers!" First of all, Isra'el was DEFINITELY looking forward to the Messiah as the One who would bruise the serpent's head although it would cost Him a bruised heel! …The Torah is FULL of such prophecies! …And, one should NOT base Isra'el's historical outlook on the Messiah on the actions and beliefs of …the Jews of Yeshua`s day! The Jews of Yeshua`s day had a POLITICAL BIAS through which they kicked against what they deep-down KNEW to be true from what they had been taught from rabbis in the past and even in their own day:

    You may disagree strongly but I tend to read the scriptures pragmatically, not with rose-colored glasses that even tries to find the “bright side” to the most heinous of Israeli crimes.

    John 11:47-54 47 Then gathered the chief priests and the Pharisees a council, and said, What do we? for this man doeth many miracles. 48 If we let him thus alone, all men will believe on him: and the Romans shall come and take away both our place and nation. 49 And one of them, named Caiaphas, being the high priest that same year, said unto them, Ye know nothing at all, 50 Nor consider that it is expedient for us, that one man should die for the people, and that the whole nation perish not. 51 And this spake he not of himself: but being high priest that year, he prophesied that Jesus should die for that nation; (Here, Caiphas is saying that he is not the one who would die but Christ should be the scapegoat. There was no righteous attempt here to fulfill prophecy even though that’s what he was “unwittingly” doing. Caiphas’s deed regarding fulfillment is more in line with Nebuchadnezzar being the “servant” of God in Israel’s 70 yr. captivity to fulfill the prophecies of Israel’s punishment for straying away from God. The following vs. (52) is just John’s commentary on what the end result was. )52 And not for that nation only, but that also he should gather together in one the children of God that were scattered abroad. 53 Then from that day forth they took counsel together for to put him to death. 54 Jesus therefore walked no more openly among the Jews; but went thence unto a country near to the wilderness, into a city called Ephraim, and there continued with his disciples. KJV

    Your words: “Do you think he was the ONLY high priest to prophesy such things to the people?”

    There was no “proclamation” to the people. This was a closed door, secret meeting plotting to kill an innocent man so Rome wouldn’t kick their butts for being “unpeaceful”. Maybe because he was a high priest it could be “considered” prophecying but imo, it’s on the scale of me, seeing a rabid dog terrorizing my community and saying, “this dog must die” and few days later someone shoots him. Technically, you could say I prophesied by foretelling an event which hadn’t happened yet but I wouldn’t put much stock in calling it a “prophesy”.

    The examples of Micah and David just goes to show that God has always judged by the intent of our heart. (Heb. 4:12)

    Your verse: Psalm 32:1-2 1 Blessed is he whose transgression is forgiven, whose sin is covered. 2 Blessed is the man unto whom the Lord imputeth not iniquity, and in whose spirit there is no guile. KJV

    My highlights from the NIV: "Blessed is the one whose transgressions are forgiven, whose sins are covered. 2 Blessed is the one whose sin the Lord does not count against them and in whose spirit is no deceit.”

    How are the sins covered? By blood sacrifices. Why does the Lord not count their sins against them? Because of blood sacrifices. They were a temporary solution in the OT that had to be repeated often. Yes, they foreshadowed Christ but until the real came, the blood sacrifices were ordained of God as a substitution until that time. If they were worthless and proved nothing, God wouldn’t have wasted everyone’s time in doing them.
    However, just fulfilling the obligations of the law was insufficient if your heart was in the wrong place. I’m sure many considered it a mere business transaction. Let’s see, I did this and this and this, hmmm, that’s 3 doves, a lamb and two heifers. Ok, I got that and I need to make sure I have enough critters for the next time. Is. 53 shows us that Israel had no excuse in not recognizing Christ for who he was, after the fact.

    Your words: “NO ONE has EVER been justified by the Law! EVERYONE has ALWAYS been justified by God's grace! Don't you pay attention to the words of Paul?”

    Romans 3:20-28 20 Therefore by the deeds of the law there shall NO flesh be justified in his sight: …a man is justified by faith without (outside of) the deeds of the law. KJV

    Rom. 3 is speaking of the times AFTER Christ’s resurrection, certainly not before.

    Remember Yeshua`s words about the Pharisee and the Publican:
    Luke 18:9-14 - 9 And he spake this parable unto certain which trusted in themselves that they were righteous, and despised others: 10 Two men went up into the temple to pray; the one a Pharisee, and the other a publican. 11 The Pharisee stood and prayed thus with himself, God, I thank thee, that I am not as other men are, extortioners, unjust, adulterers, or even as this publican. 12 I fast twice in the week, I give tithes of all that I possess. 13 And the publican, standing afar off, would not lift up so much as his eyes unto heaven, but smote upon his breast, saying, God be merciful to me a sinner. 14 I tell you, this man went down to his house justified rather than the other: for every one that exalteth himself shall be abased; and he that humbleth himself shall be exalted. KJV

    Again, it’s a matter of the intent of the heart. That doesn’t change.

    Your words: “Furthermore, you've got Romans 11:29 ALL wrong! It's not "the gifts and calling of God are without (man's) repentance"; it's "the gifts and calling of God are without (GOD'S) repentance!" Paul is talking about GOD not changing His mind about the gifts and calling He makes to and of men, such as with the Isra'elites!”

    No, I didn’t get it wrong. I agree that it’s about God not changing his mind. That is why I see a future for Israel and do not subscribe to replacement theology. But as has previously been revealed, the “gifts and calling” are only for those who have a right relationship w/ God, not everyone who has an Israeli bloodline..

    My words from previous post: "It is only our past sins, at the point of salvation, that are forgiven and thus taken away from our record. They are blotted out. (Acts 3:19). Each time we sin, it is put in the book and then when we repent and ask for forgiveness, they are again blotted out. We know that forgiveness is available for future sins but we can’t just ignore them. Repentance is an ongoing process in the life of a believer as we mature and more and more sins/unChristlike attitudes are revealed."

    Your words: “This is DEAD WRONG! That is the Arminian position, but it is NOT the Calvinist position!”
    Let me ask it this way: When did the Messiah (the Christ) die for our sins? Approximately 2000 years ago, right? How many of our sins were in the future THEN? All of them, right? If God's Sacrifice for sin in His only Son didn't pay for ALL of them, it didn't pay for ANY of them! It's not based on when WE make a decision! It's based on when GOD justified us!

    I think your view is skewed a little sideways here. Yes, all our sins were paid for at the cross. But it is TOTALLY dependent on, maybe not when, but IF we make a decision. Jesus made “provision” for our salvation, but if a person never accepts Christ as Savior, then that provision does them no good at all. Our sins are not forgiven until we come to that plateau. When we are saved we become a “new creature”, which at the starting point is perfect but when we lose that perfection by sinning, then we MUST “drink again” from that well of forgiveness which is constantly flowing. If we don’t than “our branch” can be cut off of the tree or as rejected as Matt. 7:22-23 explains: “Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works? 23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.”

    Your words: “And, you have the wrong take on 1 John 1:9!
    Hal Lindsey was the first one to point it out to me, but the verbs there are aorist subjunctive active verbs! The text should read more like, "If we may acknowledge (agree with God about) our sins, He is trustworthy and righteous and MAY FORGIVE US AT ONCE our sins, and MAY CLEANSE US AT ONCE from all unrighteousness." Simply put, once we acknowledgethat what we have done is ... yes ... indeed a sin, THEN God is FREE to count it among the sins paid for! He's not forgiving us again; He's counting new offenses among those already forgiven!

    I would word it a little differently. The way you describe it sounds like all someone needs to do when they sin after salvation is to say: “Lord, I think I might have sinned a couple of times last week but let’s just add it to the tab and we’re cool!" I think God deserves a little more respect than that that. I would not say that God is forgiving us AGAIN, I would say the fountain of forgiveness runs CONTINUOUSLY from which we can partake of any time it becomes necessary.
     
  14. Retrobyter

    Retrobyter Well-Known Member

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    Shalom, Trekson.

    This is a response to post #52:

    I was going to answer the whole thing (24 pages worth), but I decided just answering the last point and the most important point would do for now:

    Regarding Romans 11, you said, "This is where I believe you get it wrong. The tree is only a metaphor and Israel is never described as the tree but only as branches. Christ is the root and the 'fatness' of the tree (trunk) is what the 'branches' are 'partaking' of (vs. 17) The 'tree' is the 'Way of God' (the way)."

    Sorry, but you're mixing metaphors (parables), which is just a bad way to communicate! You're mixing the "Olive Tree" with the "Vine." (John 15.) That's a different parable for a different purpose. Look at Romans 11 ONE MORE TIME in context:
    Romans 9-11
    9:1 I say the truth in Christ (the Messiah), I lie not, my conscience also bearing me witness in the Holy Ghost (the Ruach haQodesh),
    2 That I have great heaviness and continual sorrow in my heart.
    3 For I could wish that myself were accursed from Christ (the Messiah) for my brethren, my kinsmen according to the flesh:
    4 Who are Israelites; to whom pertaineth the adoption, and the glory, and the covenants, and the giving of the law (the Torah), and the service of God (in the Temple), and the promises (in prophecy);
    5 Whose are the fathers, and of whom as concerning the flesh Christ (the Messiah) came, who is over all, God blessed for ever.
    Amen.
    6 Not as though the word of God hath taken none effect. For they are not all Israel, which are of Israel:
    7 Neither, because they are the seed of Abraham (2 Chron. 20:7; Psalm 105:6), are they all children: but, In Isaac shall thy seed be called. (Genesis 21:12.)
    8 That is, They which are the children of the flesh (Yishma'el or Ishmael), these are not the children of God: but the children of the promise are counted for the seed (Yitschaq or Isaac).
    9 For this is the word of promise, At this time will I come, and Sara shall have a son. (Yitschaq: Genesis 17:19, 21; 18:14.)
    10 And not only this; but when Rebecca (Rivkah) also had conceived by one, even by our father Isaac (Yitschaq);
    11 (For the children being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of him that calleth;)
    12 It was said unto her, The elder shall serve the younger. (Genesis 25:23.)
    13 As it is written, Jacob (Ya`aqov) have I loved, but Esau (Esav) have I hated. (Malachi 1:2-3.)
    14 What shall we say then? Is there unrighteousness with God? God forbid.
    15 For he saith to Moses, I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion. (Exodus 33:19.)
    16 So then it is not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that sheweth mercy.
    17 For the scripture saith unto Pharaoh, Even for this same purpose have I raised thee up, that I might shew my power in thee, and that my name might be declared throughout all the earth. (Exodus 9:16.)
    18 Therefore hath he mercy on whom he will have mercy, and whom he will he hardeneth.
    19 Thou wilt say then unto me, Why doth he yet find fault? For who hath resisted his will?
    20 Nay but, O man, who art thou that repliest against God? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed it, Why hast thou made me thus? (Isaiah 29:16; 45:9.)
    21 Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour?
    22 What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction:
    23 And that he might make known the riches of his glory on the vessels of mercy, which he had afore prepared unto glory,
    24 Even us, whom he hath called, not of the Jews only, but also of the Gentiles?
    25 As he saith also in Osee (Hoshea or Hosea), I will call them my people, which were not my people; and her beloved, which was not beloved.
    26 And it shall come to pass, that in the place where it was said unto them, Ye are not my people; there shall they be called the children of the living God. (Hosea 2:23; 1:10.)

    27 Esaias (Yesha`yahu or Isaiah) also crieth concerning Israel, Though the number of the children of Israel be as the sand of the sea, a remnant shall be saved:
    28 For he will finish the work, and cut it short in righteousness: because a short work will the Lord make upon the earth. (Isaiah 10:22-23)

    29 And as Esaias (Yesha`yahu or Isaiah) before, Except the Lord of Sabaoth (YHWH Tzva'ot) had left us a seed, we had been as Sodoma (Cdomaah or Sodom), and been made like unto Gomorrha (`Amoraah or Gomorrah). (Isaiah 1:9.)
    30 What shall we say then? That the Gentiles, which followed not after righteousness, have attained to righteousness, even the righteousness which is of faith.
    31 But Israel, which followed after the law of righteousness, hath not attained to the law of righteousness.
    32 Wherefore? Because they sought it not by faith, but as it were by the works of the law. For they stumbled at that stumblingstone; (Isaiah 8:14.)
    33 As it is written, Behold, I lay in Sion a stumblingstone and rock of offence: and whosoever believeth on him shall not be ashamed. (Isaiah 28:16.)
    10:1 Brethren, my heart's desire and prayer to God for Israel is, that they might be saved.
    2 For I bear them record that they have a zeal of God, but not according to knowledge.
    3 For they being ignorant of God's righteousness, and going about to establish their own righteousness, have not submitted themselves unto the righteousness of God.
    4 For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to every one that believeth.
    5 For Moses describeth the righteousness which is of the law, That the man which doeth those things shall live by them. (Lev. 18:5.)
    6 But the righteousness which is of faith speaketh on this wise, Say not in thine heart, Who shall ascend into heaven? (that is, to bring Christ [the Messiah] down from above:)
    7 Or, Who shall descend into the deep? (that is, to bring up Christ [the Messiah] again from the dead.)
    8 But what saith it? The word is nigh thee, even in thy mouth, and in thy heart (Deut. 30:11-14): that is, the word of faith, which we preach;
    9 That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus (Yeshua`), and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.
    10 For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.
    11 For the scripture saith, Whosoever believeth on him shall not be ashamed. (Isaiah 28:16.)
    12 For there is no difference between the Jew and the Greek: for the same Lord over all is rich unto all that call upon him.
    13 For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord (YHWH) shall be saved (delivered). (Joel 2:32.)
    14 How then shall they call on him in whom they have not believed? and how shall they believe in him of whom they have not heard? and how shall they hear without a preacher?
    15 And how shall they preach, except they be sent? as it is written, How beautiful are the feet of them that preach the gospel of peace, and bring glad tidings of good things! (Isaiah 52:7.)
    16 But they have not all obeyed the gospel. For Esaias saith, Lord, who hath believed our report? (Isaiah 53:1.)
    17 So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.
    18 But I say, Have they not heard? Yes verily, their sound went into all the earth, and their words unto the ends of the world. (Psalm 19:4.)
    19 But I say, Did not Israel know? First Moses saith, I will provoke you to jealousy by them that are no people, and by a foolish nation I will anger you. (Deut. 32:21.)
    20 But Esaias (Yesha`yahu or Isaiah) is very bold, and saith, I was found of them that sought me not; I was made manifest unto them that asked not after me. (Isaiah 65:1.)
    21 But to Israel he saith, All day long I have stretched forth my hands unto a disobedient and gainsaying people. (Isaiah 65:2.)
    11:1 I say then, Hath God cast away his people? God forbid. For I also am an Israelite, of the seed of Abraham (2 Chron. 20:7; Psalm 105:6), of the tribe of Benjamin.
    2 God hath not cast away his people (1 Sam. 12:22; Psalm 94:14) which he foreknew. Wot ye not what the scripture saith of Elias? how he maketh intercession to God against Israel, saying,
    3 Lord (YHWH), they have killed thy prophets, and digged down thine altars; and I am left alone, and they seek my life. (1 Kings 19:10, 14.)
    4 But what saith the answer of God unto him? I have reserved to myself seven thousand men, who have not bowed the knee to the image of Baal. (1 Kings 19:18.)
    5 Even so then at this present time also there is a remnant according to the election of grace.
    6 And if by grace, then is it no more of works: otherwise grace is no more grace. But if it be of works, then is it no more grace: otherwise work is no more work.
    7 What then? Israel hath not obtained that which he seeketh for; but the election hath obtained it, and the rest were blinded
    8 (According as it is written, God hath given them the spirit of slumber, eyes that they should not see, and ears that they should not hear;) unto this day. (Deut. 29:4; Isa. 29:10.)
    9 And David saith, Let their table be made a snare, and a trap, and a stumbling block, and a recompence unto them:
    10 Let their eyes be darkened, that they may not see, and bow down their back alway. (Psalm 69:22-23.)

    11 I say then, Have they stumbled that they should fall? God forbid: but rather through their fall salvation is come unto the Gentiles, for to provoke them to jealousy. (Deut. 32:21.)
    12 Now if the fall of them be the riches of the world, and the diminishing of them the riches of the Gentiles; how much more their fulness?
    13 For I speak to you Gentiles, inasmuch as I am the apostle of the Gentiles, I magnify mine office:
    14 If by any means I may provoke to emulation them which are my flesh, and might save some of them.
    15 For if the casting away of them be the reconciling of the world, what shall the receiving of them be, but life from the dead?
    16 For if the firstfruit be holy, the lump is also holy: and if the root be holy, so are the branches.
    17 And if some of the branches be broken off, and thou, being a wild olive tree, wert graffed in among them, and with them partakest of the root and fatness of the olive tree;
    18 Boast not against the branches. But if thou boast, thou bearest not the root, but the root thee.
    19 Thou wilt say then, The branches were broken off, that I might be graffed in.
    20 Well; because of unbelief they were broken off, and thou standest by faith. Be not highminded, but fear:
    21 For if God spared not the natural branches, take heed lest he also spare not thee.
    22 Behold therefore the goodness and severity of God: on them which fell, severity; but toward thee, goodness, if thou continue in his goodness: otherwise thou also shalt be cut off.
    23 And they also, if they abide not still in unbelief, shall be graffed in: for God is able to graff them in again.
    24 For if thou wert cut out of the olive tree which is wild by nature, and wert graffed contrary to nature into a good olive tree: how much more shall these, which be the natural branches, be graffed into their own olive tree?
    25 For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.
    26 And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob:
    27 For this is my covenant unto them (Isaiah 59:20-21), when I shall take away their sins. (Isaiah 27:9.)
    28 As concerning the gospel, they are enemies for your sakes: but as touching the election, they are beloved for the fathers' sakes.
    29 For the gifts and calling of God are without repentance.
    30 For as ye in times past have not believed God, yet have now obtained mercy through their unbelief:
    31 Even so have these also now not believed, that through your mercy they also may obtain mercy.
    32 For God hath concluded them all in unbelief, that he might have mercy upon all.
    33 O the depth of the riches both of the wisdom and knowledge of God! how unsearchable are his judgments, and his ways past finding out!
    34 For who hath known the mind of the Lord? or who hath been his counsellor? (Isaiah 40:13.)
    35 Or who hath first given to him, and it shall be recompensed unto him again? (Job 41:11.)
    36 For of him, and through him, and to him, are all things: to whom be glory for ever. Amen.
    KJV


    And, you added, "There was a time when the only 'way' was thru Israel and the laws that God gave them. They were the only nation that God reserved unto Himself. That and that their relationship w/ God are what qualifies them as the 'natural branches'. There were gentiles in the OT that were grafted into the tree because of their faith in the Hebrew God such as Ruth. The branches are never nations or tribes, they are all individuals.

    ALL of Israel was never ALL of the olive tree. Perhaps at birth, they ALL qualified to be branches but how they lived their lives in the OT defined whether they were cut off or not. Nothing implies that being 'cut off' began with the rejection of Christ. What 'began' is that Gentiles now had a mass opportunity to be grafted in because of our acceptance of Christ as Lord and Savior."

    In this, I perceive that you are a dispensationalist. That's NOT a good thing! It implies that you, as other dispensationalists, believe that God worked with people in different ways at different times in history. That's just WRONG! God doesn't change, and God has ALWAYS worked with people in the ONE, SAME WAY! Gentile "Christianity" is merely an EXTENSION of the people with whom God had a relationship for millennia! Gentile Christians don't SUPPLANT Isra'el; they are ADDED to Isra'el! And, THAT is a very good thing! Now, we participate in all the promises and the perks of being one of God's people!
    Ephesians 2:11-22
    11 Wherefore remember, that ye being in time past Gentiles in the flesh, who are called Uncircumcision by that which is called the Circumcision in the flesh made by hands;
    12 That at that time ye were without Christ (a Messiah), being aliens from the commonwealth (citizenship) of Israel, and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope, and without God in the world:
    13 But now in Christ Jesus ye who sometimes were far off are made nigh by the blood of Christ (the Messiah).
    14 For he is our peace, who hath made both ONE, and hath broken down the middle wall of partition between us;
    15 Having abolished in his flesh the enmity, even the law of commandments contained in ordinances; for to make in himself of twain (two) ONE new man, so making peace;
    16 And that he might reconcile both unto God in ONE body by the cross, having slain the enmity thereby:
    17 And came and preached peace to you which were afar off (Gentiles), and to them that were nigh (Hebrews).
    18 For through him we both have access by one Spirit unto the Father.
    19 Now therefore ye are no more strangers and foreigners, but fellowcitizens with the saints (the holy ones), and of the household of God (that's ISRA'EL, or rather, ISRA'EL as it should have been);
    20 And are built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ himself being the chief corner stone (capstone of a pyramid);
    21 In whom all the building fitly framed together groweth unto an holy temple in the Lord:
    22 In whom ye also are builded together for an habitation of God through the Spirit.
    KJV


    Your words: "Only those who had a right relationship with God were part of that tree and for a time the vast majority of the branches were Israeli, even the first few years after Christ’s resurrection. The individuals who are broken off, are broken because of unbelief (vs.20). Not as nations or tribes or families, just individuals. Only “individual” gentile believers are grafted in because of their belief and faith in Christ (vs. 20)! The notion of eternal salvation goes 'out the window' w/ vs. 22 which tells us that if we lose our 'right standing' w/ God we can be 'cut off' (rejected). So, once saved, always saved is not a reality! When an Israeli finds Christ and accepts him as the Messiah, then and only then can they be grafted back into the “way”. I think it may be easier for them to be grafted in because the HS gives them a sense of Welcome Home, where Gentiles get the sense of Welcome to the Family, if that makes sense to you.
    The notion that all those who ruled 'wickedly' like Jehoshaphat and Jezebel to name a couple and all the generations of Israelites who abandoned God to worship pagan gods and perform pagan rituals and paid no heed to Scriptures get a free pass because they happen to share some ancestral blood with Christ… now that’s 'meshuggah'!!"

    NONSENSE! Don't you know, yet, that we CANNOT be "cut off" individually? That's NOT what Paul was talking about! How do you stop being a SON?! Sorry, it CAN'T be done! You did NOTHING to become a son of God, and you can do NOTHING to remain a son of God! It's ALL of God!
    Galatians 3:1-9
    1 O foolish Galatians, who hath bewitched you, that ye should not obey the truth, before whose eyes Jesus Christ hath been evidently set forth, crucified among you?
    2 This only would I learn of you, Received ye the Spirit by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith?
    3 Are ye so foolish? having begun in the Spirit, are ye now made perfect by the flesh?
    4 Have ye suffered so many things in vain? if it be yet in vain.
    5 He therefore that ministereth to you the Spirit, and worketh miracles among you, doeth he it by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith?
    6 Even as Abraham believed God, and it was accounted to him for righteousness.
    7 Know ye therefore that they which are of faith, the same are the children of Abraham.
    8 And the scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the heathen through faith, preached before the gospel unto Abraham, saying, In thee shall all nations be blessed.
    9 So then they which be of faith are blessed with faithful Abraham.
    KJV

    Ephesians 4:20-32
    20 But ye have not so learned Christ (the Messiah);
    21 If so be that ye have heard him, and have been taught by him, as the truth is in Jesus (Yeshua`):
    22 That ye put off concerning the former conversation (lifestyle) the old man, which is corrupt according to the deceitful lusts;
    23 And be renewed in the spirit (attitude) of your mind;
    24 And that ye put on the new man, which after God is created in righteousness and true holiness.
    25 Wherefore putting away lying, speak every man truth with his neighbour: for we are members one of another.
    26 Be ye angry, and sin not: let not the sun go down upon your wrath:
    27 Neither give place to the devil.
    28 Let him that stole steal no more: but rather let him labour, working with his hands the thing which is good, that he may have to give to him that needeth.
    29 Let no corrupt communication proceed out of your mouth, but that which is good to the use of edifying, that it may minister grace unto the hearers.
    30 And grieve not the holy Spirit of God, whereby ye are SEALED unto the day of redemption.
    31 Let all bitterness, and wrath, and anger, and clamour, and evil speaking, be put away from you, with all malice:
    32 And be ye kind one to another, tenderhearted, forgiving one another, even as God for Christ's (the Messiah's) sake hath forgiven you.
    KJV

    2 Corinthians 5:17-21
    17 Therefore if any man be in Christ (the Messiah), he IS a new creature: old things ARE passed away; behold, all things ARE become new.
    18 And all things are of God, who hath reconciled us to himself by Jesus Christ (Yeshua` the Messiah), and hath given to us the ministry of reconciliation;
    19 To wit, that God was in Christ (the Messiah), reconciling the world unto himself, not imputing their trespasses unto them; and hath committed unto us the word of reconciliation.
    20 Now then we are ambassadors for Christ, as though God did beseech you by us: we pray you in Christ's stead, be ye reconciled to God.
    21 For he hath made him to be sin for us, who knew no sin; that we might be made the righteousness of God in him.
    KJV

    "Reconcile" here does NOT mean just "to smooth things over with God." The interesting thing about the words "reconcile," "reconciled," "reconciling," and "reconciliation" is that they stem from the Greek words, "katallagee," (which means an "exchange") and "katallassoo" (which means "to change mutually"):
    NT:2643 katallagee (kat-al-lag-ay'); from NT:2644; exchange (figuratively, adjustment), i.e. restoration to (the divine) favor:
    KJV - atonement, reconciliation (-ing).

    NT:2644 katallassoo (kat-al-las'-so); from NT:2596 and NT:236; to change mutually, i.e. (figuratively) to compound a difference:
    KJV - reconcile.
    (Biblesoft's New Exhaustive Strong's Numbers and Concordance with Expanded Greek-Hebrew Dictionary. Copyright © 1994, 2003, 2006 Biblesoft, Inc. and International Bible Translators, Inc.)

    (THIS, btw, is why we study the Greek!) God trades with us HIS righteousness in the Messiah for OUR sin! It's not a "fair" trade, but it is "JUST," and through that trade, when He looks at us, He no longer sees our sin; He sees a trophy of His Son's righteousness; He sees us as His Son's righteousness, or rather, as His OWN righteousness in His Son! That's just like when He looked at His Son on the cross, and didn't see His Son's righteousness, but saw Him as OUR OWN SIN! He was free at that time to pour out all of His wrath against OUR SIN upon His Son, for He saw His Son as OUR SIN!
    Isaiah 53:10-11
    10 Yet it pleased the LORD to bruise him; HE hath put him to grief: when thou shalt make his soul an offering for sin, he shall see his seed, he shall prolong his days, and the pleasure of the LORD shall prosper in his hand.
    11 He shall see of the travail of his soul, and shall be satisfied: by his knowledge shall my righteous servant justify many; for he shall bear their iniquities.
    KJV


    When we are born into our earthly, human family, we do NOTHING to become a child of our parents. We truly have no choice or say in the matter! What can anyone do to erase the DNA of our parents in our physical make-up?! (That's rhetorical, btw.) The answer is obvious! NOTHING! It's the same with our Heavenly Father! When we are born into HIS Family, there was NOTHING that we could do to merit His favor, and there is NOTHING that can remove that mark upon our hearts! We become ALREADY "new creatures" or "new creations!"

    The problem - ONCE AGAIN - is that many associate the term "salvation" with the process of being born again! That term is NOT related directly to the process! Instead, the CORRECT terminology is "justification by God!" It's not "once saved, always saved"; it's "ONCE JUSTIFIED BY GOD, ALWAYS JUSTIFIED BY GOD!" IT'S NOT UP TO US! IT'S HIS DECISION! HE does the justifying and not upon any merits that we may seem to have or think we have! Just TRY to change His mind! (But, why would anyone WANT to?!) This isn't "easy believism," as some call it; it's assurance that God keeps His promises and that He has promised us ETERNAL LIFE! It is also a GREAT DEBT put upon us! For as children of God, we must now "pay it forward!"

    Matthew 6:12-15
    12 And forgive us our debts, as we forgive our debtors.
    13 And lead us not into temptation, but deliver us from evil: For thine is the kingdom, and the power, and the glory, for ever. Amen.
    14 For if ye forgive men their trespasses, your heavenly Father will also forgive you:
    15 But if ye forgive not men their trespasses, neither will your Father forgive your trespasses.
    KJV


    Matthew 18:21-35
    21 Then came Peter to him, and said, Lord, how oft shall my brother sin against me, and I forgive him? till seven times?
    22 Jesus saith unto him,
    I say not unto thee, Until seven times: but, Until seventy times seven.
    23 Therefore is the kingdom of heaven likened unto a certain king, which would take account of his servants.
    24 And when he had begun to reckon, one was brought unto him, which owed him ten thousand talents.
    25 But forasmuch as he had not to pay, his lord commanded him to be sold, and his wife, and children, and all that he had, and payment to be made.
    26 The servant therefore fell down, and worshipped him, saying, Lord, have patience with me, and I will pay thee all.
    27 Then the lord of that servant was moved with compassion, and loosed him, and forgave him the debt.
    28 But the same servant went out, and found one of his fellowservants, which owed him an hundred pence: and he laid hands on him, and took him by the throat, saying, Pay me that thou owest.
    29 And his fellowservant fell down at his feet, and besought him, saying, Have patience with me, and I will pay thee all.
    30 And he would not: but went and cast him into prison, till he should pay the debt.
    31 So when his fellowservants saw what was done, they were very sorry, and came and told unto their lord all that was done.
    32 Then his lord, after that he had called him, said unto him, O thou wicked servant, I forgave thee all that debt, because thou desiredst me:
    33 Shouldest not thou also have had compassion on thy fellowservant, even as I had pity on thee?
    34 And his lord was wroth, and delivered him to the tormentors, till he should pay all that was due unto him.
    35 So likewise shall my heavenly Father do also unto you, if ye from your hearts forgive not every one his brother their trespasses.

    KJV

    Luke 6:36-38
    36 Be ye therefore merciful, as your Father also is merciful.
    37 Judge not, and ye shall not be judged: condemn not, and ye shall not be condemned: forgive, and ye shall be forgiven:
    38 Give, and it shall be given unto you; good measure, pressed down, and shaken together, and running over, shall men give into your bosom. For with the same measure that ye mete withal it shall be measured to you again.
    KJV


    Luke 7:40-48
    40 And Jesus answering said unto him, Simon, I have somewhat to say unto thee. And he saith, Master, say on.
    41 There was a certain creditor which had two debtors: the one owed five hundred pence, and the other fifty.
    42 And when they had nothing to pay, he frankly forgave them both. Tell me therefore, which of them will love him most?
    43 Simon answered and said, I suppose that he, to whom he forgave most. And he said unto him, Thou hast rightly judged.
    44 And he turned to the woman, and said unto Simon, Seest thou this woman? I entered into thine house, thou gavest me no water for my feet: but she hath washed my feet with tears, and wiped them with the hairs of her head.
    45 Thou gavest me no kiss: but this woman since the time I came in hath not ceased to kiss my feet.
    46 My head with oil thou didst not anoint: but this woman hath anointed my feet with ointment.
    47 Wherefore I say unto thee, Her sins, which are many, are forgiven; for she loved much: but to whom little is forgiven, the same loveth little.
    48 And he said unto her, Thy sins are forgiven.
    KJV

    2 Corinthians 2:5-11
    5 But if any have caused grief, he hath not grieved me, but in part: that I may not overcharge you all.
    6 Sufficient to such a man is this punishment, which was inflicted of many.
    7 So that contrariwise ye ought rather to forgive him, and comfort him, lest perhaps such a one should be swallowed up with overmuch sorrow.
    8 Wherefore I beseech you that ye would confirm your love toward him.
    9 For to this end also did I write, that I might know the proof of you, whether ye be obedient in all things.
    10 To whom ye forgive any thing, I forgive also: for if I forgave any thing, to whom I forgave it, for your sakes forgave I it in the person of Christ;
    11 Lest Satan should get an advantage of us: for we are not ignorant of his devices.
    KJV


    Ephesians 4:32
    32 And be ye kind one to another, tenderhearted, forgiving one another, even as God for Christ's sake hath forgiven you.
    KJV


    Colossians 3:12-13
    12 Put on therefore, as the elect (chosen ones) of God, holy (singled out) and beloved, bowels of mercies, kindness, humbleness of mind, meekness, longsuffering;
    13 Forbearing one another, and forgiving one another, if any man have a quarrel against any: even as Christ forgave you, so also do ye.
    KJV
     
  15. Raeneske

    Raeneske New Member

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    1 Thessalonians 5:4 But ye, brethren, are not in darkness, that that day should overtake you as a thief.

    Noah was still on the planet. He was shut up in the ark 7 days before the flood came and destroyed the wicked ones. So too, those who are saved will still be on this planet, but they will be sealed before the 7 last plagues.

    If you mean to say there is no need to prepare to be raptured because one would think that Christ is not coming for seven years, then I fear for them. If Christ was not to arrive for 7 years for now, why does that stop us preparing for Him? Whether Christ is afar off, or if He is coming tomorrow, we should live every single day like our last.

    Again, the day is not supposed to come as a thief to those who believe. If it comes to a thief to you, and you claim to believe, then you were not ready for it. If that day overtakes any of us as a thief, we are lost.

    Revelation 3:3 Remember therefore how thou hast received and heard, and hold fast, and repent. If therefore thou shalt not watch, I will come on thee as a thief, and thou shalt not know what hour I will come upon thee.

    You repeated the Noah section.
     
  16. rockytopva

    rockytopva Well-Known Member Encounter Team

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    And the rapture will happen in the days of Noah and of Lot...

    And as it was in the days of Noe, so shall it be also in the days of the Son of man. They did eat, they drank, they married wives, they were given in marriage, until the day that Noah entered into the ark, and the flood came, and destroyed them all. - Luke 17:26-27

    Likewise also as it was in the days of Lot; they did eat, they drank, they bought, they sold, they planted, they builded; But the same day that Lot went out of Sodom it rained fire and brimstone from heaven, and destroyed them all. - Luke 17:28-29

    Even thus shall it be in the day when the Son of man is revealed. - Luke 17:30

    Lot came and told his son and Laws that the city was going to be destroyed...

    And Lot went out, and spake unto his sons in law, which married his daughters, and said, Up, get you out of this place; for the Lord will destroy this city. But he seemed as one that mocked unto his sons in law. - Genesis 19:14

    And his sons thought that he was joking with them. This is the way it will be before the rapture time. We will tell folks, even so called Christians, that Christ is coming soon and for them to be ready, and they will look at us in return as if we are high on drugs. And this event will happen in ordinary times, as in the days of Lot and Noah...

    34 I tell you, in that night there shall be two men in one bed; the one shall be taken, and the other shall be left.
    35 Two women shall be grinding together; the one shall be taken, and the other left.
    36 Two men shall be in the field; the one shall be taken, and the other left.
    37 And they answered and said unto him, Where, Lord? And he said unto them, Wheresoever the body is, thither will the eagles be gathered together. - Luke 17

    Therefore be ye also ready: for in such an hour as ye think not the Son of man cometh. - Matthew 24:44

    Be ye therefore ready also: for the Son of man cometh at an hour when ye think not. - Luke 12:40

    Behold, I come as a thief. Blessed is he that watcheth, and keepeth his garments, lest he walk naked, and they see his shame. - Revelation 16:15
     
  17. Trekson

    Trekson Well-Known Member

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    Hi Retro, Resonse to post #54

    Your words: “Sorry, but you're mixing metaphors (parables), which is just a bad way to communicate! You're mixing the "Olive Tree" with the "Vine." (John 15.) That's a different parable for a different purpose. Look at Romans 11 ONE MORE TIME in context:

    The main vs. that sticks out for me in Rom. 9:27 – “27 Esaias (Yesha`yahu or Isaiah) also crieth concerning Israel, Though the number of the children of Israel be as the sand of the sea, a remnant shall be saved:” This is saying the same thing I’ve been trying to show you. Only a remnant of Israel shall be saved but that remnant at that time will be the “all” of Israel of Rom. 11:26. I do not believe I was mixing metaphors at all. Christ used various parables to get the same point across and I believe the parables of the Vine and the Olive Tree are used in that manner as well. They both show us who we are in Christ.

    Your words: “In this, I perceive that you are a dispensationalist. That's NOT a good thing! It implies that you, as other dispensationalists, believe that God worked with people in different ways at different times in history. That's just WRONG! God doesn't change, and God has ALWAYS worked with people in the ONE, SAME WAY! Gentile "Christianity" is merely an EXTENSION of the people with whom God had a relationship for millennia! Gentile Christians don't SUPPLANT Isra'el; they are ADDED to Isra'el! And, THAT is a very good thing! Now, we participate in all the promises and the perks of being one of God's people!”

    A typical dispensationalist sees an eternal separation between Israel and the Church. I do not! However, if we use your description: “believe that God worked with people in different ways at different times in history. Then I guess I’m guilty as charged because the difference is plain to see. You sound like you believe God is a pre-programmed computer who has no choice but to follow his programming. Thankfully, God is NOT like that. Where do you think we get our “free will” from? We are created in his image. I really don’t see how anyone could NOT be a dispensationalist when you look at history.

    The character of God never changes per Mal. 3:6. But how God reacted towards man historically is extremely different. There are four distinct differences. How God was, with the generations from Adam-Noah, how he was with Israel during the time of the law, how he is with the church in the era of grace and the future relationship w/ Israel and the nations during the millennium. Yes, there are commonalities. It’s always been about faith and trust in God and the reward of eternal life will be the same but how the various generations got there IS different.
    We see the evidence of this difference in the manner with which God deals with all of us independently. The “babes” in Christ, imo, get a greater share of grace then a mature believer. There are different expectations of us in our different levels of maturity. “To whom much is given, much is required.” There will even be different levels of rewards as the parable explains. Some will receive greater responsibilities than others.

    Your words: “NONSENSE! Don't you know, yet, that we CANNOT be "cut off" individually? That's NOT what Paul was talking about! How do you stop being a SON?! Sorry, it CAN'T be done! You did NOTHING to become a son of God, and you can do NOTHING to remain a son of God! It's ALL of God!”

    We are not all pawns on God’s chess board. Yes, we all DID do something to become sons/daughters of God. We accepted His gift of salvation. We believed upon God and in the price our Savior paid. We exercised our faith. Without those efforts on our parts we would still be unbelievers. I don’t believe that God will take this gift away from us, but I do believe as a matter of free will, we can give the gift back! How else do you explain Matt. 7:22-23 – “Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works? 23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.”

    Obviously, some of them did something wrong or they never would have been able to cast out devil, prophecy or performed wonderful works in the first place. What about the warning that is given to us in Heb. 2:1-3a – “Therefore we ought to give the more earnest heed to the things which we have heard, lest at any time we should let them slip.(drift away from them) 2 For if the word spoken by angels was stedfast, and every transgression and disobedience received a just recompence of reward; 3 How shall we escape, if we neglect so great salvation?...”

    We have a responsibility to “work out our salvation w/ fear and trembling”. God has done all he needed to do but now we have to carry the load but Christ assures us that even tho “the load is heavy, the burden is light.” So don’t try to get me to believe that we didn’t or can’t do anything to maintain our salvation. Imo, that is something you need to change your outlook on as I really believe you are in error, regarding this particular matter.

    Your words: “(THIS, btw, is why we study the Greek!) God trades with us HIS righteousness in the Messiah for OUR sin! It's not a "fair" trade, but it is "JUST," and through that trade, when He looks at us, He no longer sees our sin; He sees a trophy of His Son's righteousness; He sees us as His Son's righteousness, or rather, as His OWN righteousness in His Son! That's just like when He looked at His Son on the cross, and didn't see His Son's righteousness, but saw Him as OUR OWN SIN! He was free at that time to pour out all of His wrath against OUR SIN upon His Son, for He saw His Son as OUR SIN!

    I think you’re looking at this the wrong way. It’s NOT a trade at all! We were BOUGHT with a price. As the song lyric goes: “I owed a debt, I could not pay and He paid a debt, He did not owe…” You’re right when you say, He no longer sees our sin, but we don’t become trophies?? He sees the blood His Son gave as a covering as foreshadowed by the OT sacrifices. When God gazes upon us He does NOT see His own righteousness, He sees the righteousness of His Son and His Son’s blood covering us. Again, Christ did not BECOME our sin, all our sins were put upon him. They became His burden and he bore the penalty for the sins of the whole world.
     
  18. Retrobyter

    Retrobyter Well-Known Member

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    Shalom, Trekson.

    This is in response to Post #57.

    Sorry, bro', but we HAVE to sort all this out before we can hope to continue. We're no longer on the same page.

    First of all, "salvation" is the WRONG WORD!!! It's not "salvation" that refers to being "born again!" It's "JUSTIFICATION" that refers to being "born again!" THAT'S why you're getting wrong interpretations of these passages which you quoted!

    Keep the two separate: "Salvation" has to do with RESCUE, most of the time it specifically has to do with the NATIONAL RESCUE of the Hebrews (the Jews) as per the prophecies of the Tanakh (the OT).

    A case in point is Romans 10:13:
    Romans 10:13
    13 For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.
    KJV


    How often do you hear this verse used for a person's standing with God? And, yet, look at the context of the verse that is here quoted by Paul:
    Joel 2:30-3:2
    30 And I will shew wonders in the heavens and in the earth, blood, and fire, and pillars of smoke.
    31 The sun shall be turned into darkness, and the moon into blood, before the great and the terrible day of the LORD come.
    32 And it shall come to pass, that whosoever shall call on the name of the LORD shall be delivered: for in mount Zion and in Jerusalem shall be deliverance, as the LORD hath said, and in the remnant whom the LORD shall call.
    3 For, behold, in those days, and in that time, when I shall bring again the captivity of Judah and Jerusalem,
    2 I will also gather all nations, and will bring them down into the valley of Jehoshaphat, and will plead with them there for my people and for my heritage Israel, whom they have scattered among the nations, and parted my land.
    KJV


    This is CLEARLY the time when Yeshua`, the Representative King of YHWH, will hold a war tribunal regarding "all nations" and how they treated His people, His heritage Isra'el, whom they will have scattered among the nations and apportioned the Land after their departure. I totally reject the notion that Paul would take Scriptures out of context and use them for a pretext! Therefore, I must conclude that Paul KNEW the context of the verse he quoted and used it appropriately.

    The conclusion is, therefore, that at least some Christians (I believe the word is MOST Christians) don't know the correct interpretation of Romans 10:13, and that affects how some (MOST) view the context of Romans 10:13!

    Justification, on the other hand, has to do with the individual standing one has with God.

    It's not your fault; it's been a common error for hundreds of years, thanks in large part to ministers who each week give a terse sermon based on a cursory reading of some particular passage of the Bible, frequently ending in an altar call for listeners to come and "be saved."

    Now, regarding the words "salvation" and "saved," the KEY INGREDIENT to understanding this term within its context is the TIMING of the event!

    For instance, in Romans 9:27 that you quoted, this is a direct quote from Isaiah 10:22-23. Look at its context:
    Isaiah 10:12-27
    12 Wherefore it shall come to pass, that when the LORD hath performed his whole work upon mount Zion and on Jerusalem, I will punish the fruit of the stout heart of the king of Assyria, and the glory of his high looks.
    13 For he saith, By the strength of my hand I have done it, and by my wisdom; for I am prudent: and I have removed the bounds of the people, and have robbed their treasures, and I have put down the inhabitants like a valiant man:
    14 And my hand hath found as a nest the riches of the people: and as one gathereth eggs that are left, have I gathered all the earth; and there was none that moved the wing, or opened the mouth, or peeped.
    15 Shall the axe boast itself against him that heweth therewith? or shall the saw magnify itself against him that shaketh it? as if the rod should shake itself against them that lift it up, or as if the staff should lift up itself, as if it were no wood.
    16 Therefore shall the LORD, the LORD of hosts, send among his fat ones leanness; and under his glory he shall kindle a burning like the burning of a fire.
    17 And the light of Israel shall be for a fire, and his Holy One for a flame: and it shall burn and devour his thorns and his briers in one day;
    18 And shall consume the glory of his forest, and of his fruitful field, both soul and body: and they shall be as when a standardbearer fainteth.
    19 And the rest of the trees of his forest shall be few, that a child may write them.
    20 And it shall come to pass in that day, that the remnant of Israel, and such as are escaped of the house of Jacob, shall no more again stay upon him that smote them; but shall stay upon the LORD, the Holy One of Israel, in truth.
    21 The remnant shall return, even the remnant of Jacob, unto the mighty God.
    22 For though thy people Israel be as the sand of the sea, yet a remnant of them shall return: the consumption decreed shall overflow with righteousness.

    23 For the LORD God of hosts shall make a consumption, even determined, in the midst of all the land.
    24 Therefore thus saith the Lord God of hosts, O my people that dwellest in Zion, be not afraid of the Assyrian: he shall smite thee with a rod, and shall lift up his staff against thee, after the manner of Egypt.
    25 For yet a very little while, and the indignation shall cease, and mine anger in their destruction.
    26 And the LORD of hosts shall stir up a scourge for him according to the slaughter of Midian at the rock of Oreb: and as his rod was upon the sea, so shall he lift it up after the manner of Egypt.
    27 And it shall come to pass in that day, that his burden shall be taken away from off thy shoulder, and his yoke from off thy neck, and the yoke shall be destroyed because of the anointing.
    KJV


    Thus, this is NOT talking about a "remnant of all Isra'el down through time!" This is talking about a "remnant of all Isra'el at that particular moment in history!" Furthermore, this is not talking about their justification; it's talking about their national rescue! It's talking about when God comes with His Holy One (Yeshua` the Messiah) to RESCUE ISRA'EL from its oppressors!

    Romans 11, however, is talking about the RESURRECTION and ALL of national Isra'el resulting from that resurrection!
    Romans 11:11-15
    11 I say then, Have they stumbled that they should fall? God forbid: but rather through their fall salvation is come unto the Gentiles, for to provoke them to jealousy.
    12 Now if the fall of them be the riches of the world, and the diminishing of them the riches of the Gentiles; HOW MUCH MORE THEIR FULNESS?
    13 For I speak to you Gentiles, inasmuch as I am the apostle of the Gentiles, I magnify mine office:
    14 If by any means I may provoke to emulation them which are my flesh, and might save some of them.
    15 For if the casting away of them be the reconciling of the world, what shall the receiving of them be, but LIFE FROM THE DEAD?
    KJV


    Also, you've misunderstood Hebrews 2:1-3 in the same way:

    Hebrews 2:1-5
    1 Therefore we ought to give the more earnest heed to the things which we have heard, lest at any time we should let them slip.
    2 For if the word spoken by angels was stedfast, and every transgression and disobedience received a just recompence of reward;
    3 How shall we escape, if we neglect so great salvation (a RESCUE); which at the first began to be spoken by the Lord, and was confirmed unto us by them that heard him;
    4 God also bearing them witness, both with signs and wonders, and with divers miracles, and gifts of the Holy Ghost, according to his own will?
    5 For unto the angels hath he not put in subjection the world to come, whereof we speak.
    KJV


    This passage has NOTHING to do with one's justification by God; it has EVERYTHING to do with the RESCUE prophesied (spoken by the Lord) and confirmed by God through the signs and wonders and different kinds of miracles and gifts from the Ruach haQodesh! It has to do with the "world to come!"

    If you can come to terms with these facts, THEN you might understand the rest:

    John 15:1-17 (the Vine metaphor) is talking about the NOW of our relationship with the Messiah and how it affects our FUTURE.
    Romans 11 (the Olive Tree metaphor) is talking about the FUTURE relationship of God with Isra'el (and the believing Gentiles grafted in) and how it affects our NOW!

    They are NOT the same metaphor! You ARE mixing metaphors.

    Regarding the "parable" to which is linked the phrase "To whom much is given, much is required," I'm assuming you are referring to Luke 12:36-48. If not, let me know.
    Luke 12:36-48
    36 And ye yourselves like unto men that wait for their lord, when he will return from the wedding; that when he cometh and knocketh, they may open unto him immediately.
    37 Blessed are those servants, whom the lord when he cometh shall find watching: verily I say unto you, that he shall gird himself, and make them to sit down to meat, and will come forth and serve them.
    38 And if he shall come in the second watch, or come in the third watch, and find them so, blessed are those servants.
    39 And this know, that if the goodman of the house had known what hour the thief would come, he would have watched, and not have suffered his house to be broken through.
    40 Be ye therefore ready also: for the Son of man cometh at an hour when ye think not.
    41 Then Peter said unto him, Lord, speakest thou this parable unto us, or even to all?
    42 And the Lord said, Who then is that faithful and wise steward, whom his lord shall make ruler over his household, to give them their portion of meat in due season?
    43 Blessed is that servant, whom his lord when he cometh shall find so doing.
    44 Of a truth I say unto you, that he will make him ruler over all that he hath.
    45 But and if that servant say in his heart, My lord delayeth his coming; and shall begin to beat the menservants and maidens, and to eat and drink, and to be drunken;
    46 The lord of that servant will come in a day when he looketh not for him, and at an hour when he is not aware, and will cut him in sunder, and will appoint him his portion with the unbelievers.
    47 And that servant, which knew his lord's will, and prepared not himself, neither did according to his will, shall be beaten with many stripes.
    48 But he that knew not, and did commit things worthy of stripes, shall be beaten with few stripes. For unto whomsoever much is given, of him shall be much required: and to whom men have committed much, of him they will ask the more.
    KJV

    This is a parable concerning our Lord's return: There are three groups here:

    1. Those who did what they were expected to do; they become rulers over all that our Lord will have.
    2. Those who knowingly assumed the Lord was delaying His coming; they will be beaten with many stripes (of a whip) and given the same portion as the unbelievers will get.
    3. Those who didn't know and in ignorance mistreated their fellow servants anyway; they will be beaten with few stripes.

    This says nothing about one's justification; this is about reward or consequences to Yeshua`s servants for how they treated their fellow servants while he was away.

    You also made the statement, "Obviously, some of them did something wrong or they never would have been able to cast out devils, prophesy, or perform wonderful works in the first place." Don't be too sure! After all, the disciples of the Pharisees cast out devils:
    Matthew 12:24-27
    24 But when the Pharisees heard it, they said, This fellow doth not cast out devils, but by Beelzebub the prince of the devils.
    25 And Jesus knew their thoughts, and said unto them, Every kingdom divided against itself is brought to desolation; and every city or house divided against itself shall not stand:
    26 And if Satan cast out Satan, he is divided against himself; how shall then his kingdom stand?
    27 And if I by Beelzebub cast out devils, by whom do your children cast them out? therefore they shall be your judges.
    KJV

    Also, remember Yeshua`s words to His own disciples:
    Luke 9:49-50
    49 And John answered and said, Master, we saw one casting out devils in thy name; and we forbad him, because he followeth not with us.
    50 And Jesus said unto him, Forbid him not: for he that is not against us is for us.
    KJV

    So, it's possible to cast out devils (daemons) without necessarily being one of Yeshua`s disciples, without being on the same page as Yeshua`. Furthermore, this verse may well be proof that it IS possible that they would have been able to cast out devils, prophesy, or perform wonderful works in some other power, and there ARE other powers, such as the daemons (lesser gods), the minions of haSatan!
     
  19. Trekson

    Trekson Well-Known Member

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    Hi Retro, Man, you’re making me do my homework on this one but unfortunately, the more I research, the more I see you’re looking at things the wrong way. First, while I believe any kind of “replacement” theology is wrong, I also believe looking at things at the opposite extreme is equally egregious. Outside of the gospels, the majority of the NT has zero to do with “national” Israel. In fact, the Word, goes out of its way to explain that “in Christ” we are all equal. We “lose” our nationality to become part of “His” nation. Christ came to the Jews first, as promised, (John 4:22 = their opportunity for “national” salvation) but upon their rejection, (their “national” opportunity for salvation ended for all time, the way you view it, with exception of the 144,000 + =, the remnant God decides to allow into the millennium) the whole thing changed and you seem to be unwilling to accept that.

    Your words: “First of all, "salvation" is the WRONG WORD!!! It's not "salvation" that refers to being "born again!" It's "JUSTIFICATION" that refers to being "born again!" THAT'S why you're getting wrong interpretations of these passages which you quoted!”

    Baloney! “Salvation” is just a word that means either “delivered or “caused” to be delivered. Examples: Acts 16:17 – “The same followed Paul and us, and cried, saying, These men are the servants of the most high God, which shew unto us the way of salvation.”
    2 Tim. 2:10 – “ Therefore I endure all things for the elect's sakes, that they may also obtain the salvation which is in Christ Jesus with eternal glory.”

    Yes, Christians are indeed saved. We are “saved” from eternal damnation, we are “saved” from an unhappy, self-involved life, we are saved from the “wages of sin is death”, we are saved unto eternal life. Saved = being born again! Upon the act of being “born again” or redeemed, God sees us as being “justified” through the blood of His Son.

    Your words: “Keep the two separate: "Salvation" has to do with RESCUE, most of the time it specifically has to do with the NATIONAL RESCUE of the Hebrews (the Jews) as per the prophecies of the Tanakh (the OT).”

    And you have to understand that God’s dealings with the nation of Israel were foreshadows of the reality of the church. All the spiritual promises God made to Israel find their fulfillment in the church! The only promise left unfulfilled are the physical land promise which will be fulfilled with the 144,000 +!

    Your words: “A case in point is Romans 10:13: “13 For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.” KJV

    This following is a fine example of how you unwittingly twist things around to the Jewish viewpoint.

    Your words: “How often do you hear this verse used for a person's standing with God? And, yet, look at the context of the verse that is here quoted by Paul:
    Joel 2:30-3:2 – “30 And I will shew wonders in the heavens and in the earth, blood, and fire, and pillars of smoke. 31 The sun shall be turned into darkness, and the moon into blood, before the great and the terrible day of the LORD come. 32 And it shall come to pass, that whosoever shall call on the name of the LORD shall be delivered: for in mount Zion and in Jerusalem shall be deliverance, as the LORD hath said, and in the remnant whom the LORD shall call. 3 For, behold, in those days, and in that time, when I shall bring again the captivity of Judah and Jerusalem, 2 I will also gather all nations, and will bring them down into the valley of Jehoshaphat, and will plead with them there for my people and for my heritage Israel, whom they have scattered among the nations, and parted my land. KJV

    This is CLEARLY the time when Yeshua`, the Representative King of YHWH, will hold a war tribunal regarding "all nations" and how they treated His people, His heritage Isra'el, whom they will have scattered among the nations and apportioned the Land after their departure. I totally reject the notion that Paul would take Scriptures out of context and use them for a pretext! Therefore, I must conclude that Paul KNEW the context of the verse he quoted and used it appropriately.

    I agree that Paul knew the context and the whole point was to REJECT the idea of “national" salvation. You need to read the previous verse to get the context of Rom. 10:13. Rom. 10:12 – “For there is no difference between the Jew and the Greek: for the same Lord over all is rich unto all that call upon him.” The point that Paul is making is that “whosoever” now includes the gentiles and that is the fulfillment of the spiritual promise of Joel 2. Yes, there are some physical promises left. Joel 2:30-32 is the spiritual promise fulfilled in Christ and yes I agree that Joel 3:1-2 is a depiction of the sheep and goat judgment of Matt. 25 as the word “plead” means judgment and a pronouncement of sentencing.

    Your words: “The conclusion is, therefore, that at least some Christians (I believe the word is MOST Christians) don't know the correct interpretation of Romans 10:13, and that affects how some (MOST) view the context of Romans 10:13!”

    Your conclusion is wrong because you reading into the spiritual aspects, things of the physical which DON’T BELONG in this context. There are two completely different promises in the Joel passage you quoted. The beginning of Cp. 3 has moved on from the point made at the end of Cp. 2. (One of the rare cases, imo, which the translators got right as to dividing subject matter)

    Your words: “For instance, in Romans 9:27 that you quoted, this is a direct quote from Isaiah 10:22-23. Look at its context:
    Isaiah 10:22-24 – “22 For though thy people Israel be as the sand of the sea, yet a remnant of them shall return: the consumption decreed shall overflow with righteousness.
    23 For the LORD God of hosts shall make a consumption, even determined, in the midst of all the land. 24 Therefore thus saith the Lord God of hosts, O my people that dwellest in Zion, be not afraid of the Assyrian: he shall smite thee with a rod, and shall lift up his staff against thee, after the manner of Egyp
    t.
    Thus, this is NOT talking about a "remnant of all Isra'el down through time!" This is talking about a "remnant of all Isra'el at that particular moment in history!" Furthermore, this is not talking about their justification; it's talking about their national rescue! It's talking about when God comes with His Holy One (Yeshua` the Messiah) to RESCUE ISRA'EL from its oppressors!

    Ok Retro, You need to come to grips with this thought. There is a reason why Paul doesn’t quote the whole passage in context and that’s because the context DOESN’T MATTER! What matters is the exact phrase he quotes and the reason why! The reason why from Rom. 9:24 is the inclusion of the gentiles.

    Okay, we have a little mystery here. In my bible it says that Rom. 9:28 is from Is. 10:23 but the scriptures are nowhere near to being similar. Any thoughts on that?

    Your words; “Romans 11, however, is talking about the RESURRECTION and ALL of national Isra'el resulting from that resurrection!
    Romans 11:11-1515 For if the casting away of them be the reconciling of the world, what shall the receiving of them be, but LIFE FROM THE DEAD?” KJV

    Sorry Retro, but a resurrection is nowhere in sight in Rom. 11. This is simply another way of saying they were “dead in their sins” but upon individual salvation they receive “eternal life”, like the rest of us and thus are eligible to be grafted back onto the tree.

    Your words: “Also, you've misunderstood Hebrews 2:1-3 in the same way: Hebrews 2:1-5
    1 Therefore we ought to give the more earnest heed to the things which we have heard, lest at any time we should let them slip. 2 For if the word spoken by angels was stedfast, and every transgression and disobedience received a just recompence of reward; 3 How shall we escape, if we neglect so great salvation (a RESCUE); which at the first began to be spoken by the Lord, and was confirmed unto us by them that heard him; 4 God also bearing them witness, both with signs and wonders, and with divers miracles, and gifts of the Holy Ghost, according to his own will? 5 For unto the angels hath he not put in subjection the world to come, whereof we speak. KJV This passage has NOTHING to do with one's justification by God; it has EVERYTHING to do with the RESCUE prophesied (spoken by the Lord) and confirmed by God through the signs and wonders and different kinds of miracles and gifts from the Ruach haQodesh! It has to do with the "world to come!" If you can come to terms with these facts, THEN you might understand the rest:

    How do you come up with these things?! I’m sorry but, imo, you are looking at things “backwards”! National Israel is NOWHERE in sight of this passage and it is NOT talking about the future it is talking of their and our present! (I changed the bold parts). Heb. 1:2 – “ Hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also he made the worlds.” The verses I highlighted are speaking of Christ’s earthly ministry and events surrounding his ministry as witnessed and heard by his disciples. We are IN the “world to come” as continuously evidenced by “ signs and wonders, and with divers miracles, and gifts of the Holy Ghost”. The whole book of Hebrews is speaking about how Christ is superior to the law and prophets and how the new covenant for both Jew and Gentiles is mostly in evidence now except for Heb. 8:11-12 which will be fulfilled by the 144,000+.

    Your words: “John 15:1-17 (the Vine metaphor) is talking about the NOW of our relationship with the Messiah and how it affects our FUTURE.”

    I don’t see the future in the Vine parable just the relationship we have w/ Christ, each other, the world and coming of the HS which was fulfilled in Acts.

    Your words: “Romans 11 (the Olive Tree metaphor) is talking about the FUTURE relationship of God with Isra'el (and the believing Gentiles grafted in) and how it affects our NOW!”

    I continue to believe that Rom. 11 is speaking of our present and that of the Jews who have accepted Christ on an individual basis. It does confirm that at least a small remnant will have a future (the 144,000+). That’s the only way the salvation of “national” Israel will be realized.

    Your words: “Regarding the "parable" to which is linked the phrase "To whom much is given, much is required," I'm assuming you are referring to Luke 12:36-48. If not, let me know.
    48 But he that knew not, and did commit things worthy of stripes, shall be beaten with few stripes. For unto whomsoever much is given, of him shall be much required: and to whom men have committed much, of him they will ask the more. KJV

    The latter part of verse 48 really has nothing to do with any parable at all, it just happens to be placed after one. It is a continuing truth regardless of any parable or circumstance. It’s just another way of saying” “Ignorance is no excuse”, we who have heard and studied the scriptures and “know” the truth will be held to a higher standard than those who have not but those who have failed to study will also be “punished” but to a lesser degree. You’re right, it’s not about salvation or justification, it’s about our responsibilities as believers.

    Here is a truism that I’ve quoted before: “The new is in the old concealed and the old is in the new revealed.” One cannot try to interpret the New Testament by reading through the lens of the Old. It just won’t work! It’s backwards and one will never “see” the truth. You have to re-interpret the Old Testament through the lens of the New, see the spiritual fulfillments and come to the understanding that in and through Christ, Israel has already had their opportunity for “national” salvation. “He came unto His own, but his own knew him not”.

    Now it is only available on an individual basis with the exception of the remnant of the 144,000+. They are the only parts of “national” Israel who will enjoy the millennium. There is no rewriting of the past. Whether Gentile or Israeli, if you died in your sins there is no “second chance” for salvation. It is/was available to all generations for those who exercised their faith and that is the only guideline by which their eternal destiny will be measured!
     
  20. Marcus O'Reillius

    Marcus O'Reillius Active Member

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    Right on Trekson, I think you did your homework very well.
     
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