How close is the Seven Year Tribulation?

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How close are we to the seven year tribulation?


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daq

HSN#1851
Feb 9, 2013
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Olam Haba
All this talk about a "3 ½ year ministry" is a product of those attempting to prove mathematical theories not based in the reality of the commandments in Torah. Any one of you touting this hypothesis would immediately disqualify your own version of Messiah as soon as you go about trying to prove your version of a "three and a half year ministry" of the Lamb of God. :)

Exodus 12:5 KJV
5. Your lamb shall be without blemish, a male of the first year: ye shall take it out from the sheep, or from the goats:

Luke 4:13-21 KJV
13. And when the devil had ended all the temptation, he departed from him for a season.
14. And Jesus returned in the power of the Spirit into Galilee: and there went out a fame of him through all the region round about.
15. And he taught in their synagogues, being glorified of all.
16. And he came to Nazareth, where he had been brought up: and, as his custom was, he went into the synagogue on the sabbath day, and stood up for to read.
17. And there was delivered unto him the book of the prophet Esaias. And when he had opened the book, he found the place where it was written,
18. The Spirit of the Lord is upon me, because he hath anointed me to preach the gospel to the poor; he hath sent me to heal the brokenhearted, to preach deliverance to the captives, and recovering of sight to the blind, to set at liberty them that are bruised,
19. To preach the acceptable year of the Lord.
20. And he closed the book, and he gave it again to the minister, and sat down. And the eyes of all them that were in the synagogue were fastened on him.
21. And he began to say unto them, This day is this scripture fulfilled in your ears.
 

Eric E Stahl

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May 28, 2013
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Soon! because Israel the nation not desired has gathered.

Zephaniah 1:14-2:3
[SIZE=14pt]14[/SIZE][SIZE=14pt] The great day of the LORD is near, it is near, and hasteth greatly, even the voice of the day of the LORD: the mighty man shall cry there bitterly.[/SIZE]
[SIZE=14pt]15[/SIZE][SIZE=14pt] That day is a day of wrath, a day of trouble and distress, a day of wasteness and desolation, a day of darkness and gloominess, a day of clouds and thick darkness,[/SIZE]
[SIZE=14pt]16[/SIZE][SIZE=14pt] A day of the trumpet and alarm against the fenced cities, and against the high towers.[/SIZE]
[SIZE=14pt]17[/SIZE][SIZE=14pt] And I will bring distress upon men, that they shall walk like blind men, because they have sinned against the LORD: and their blood shall be poured out as dust, and their flesh as the dung.[/SIZE]
[SIZE=14pt]18[/SIZE][SIZE=14pt] Neither their silver nor their gold shall be able to deliver them in the day of the LORD's wrath; but the whole land shall be devoured by the fire of his jealousy: for he shall make even a speedy riddance of all them that dwell in the land.[/SIZE]

1 Gather yourselves together, yea, gather together, O nation not desired;
2 Before the decree bring forth, before the day pass as the chaff, before the fierce anger of the LORD come upon you, before the day of the LORD's anger come upon you.
3 Seek ye the LORD, all ye meek of the earth, which have wrought his judgment; seek righteousness, seek meekness: it may be ye shall be hid in the day of the LORD's anger.
 

daq

HSN#1851
Feb 9, 2013
821
63
0
Olam Haba
If the Poll would have offered the following option:

Ye shall have tribulation Ten Days ~ And in those "Ten Days" are Seventy Weeks.

I would cast my lot into that option box and finish running the race . . . :)

(If I were ya'll)
 

veteran

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Aug 6, 2010
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The "vile person" of Daniel 11 has yet to show up in Jerusalem. He is to end the daily sacrifices and place the abomination idol that makes desolate, which is the beast image we were warned of in Rev.13:11 forward. The orthodox Jews are prepared to build their temple in Jerusalem, and have prepared the articles of temple worship and selecting priests for service.

http://www.templemountfaithful.org/


A quote from those orthodox Jews in Jerusalem directly from that website --


"The goal of the Temple Mount and Land of Israel Faithful Movement is the building of the Third Temple on the Temple Mount in Jerusalem in our lifetime in accordance with the Word of G-d and all the Hebrew prophets and the liberation of the Temple Mount from Arab (Islamic) occupation so that it may be consecrated to the Name of G-d."


Those are orthodox unbelieivng Jews in Jerusalem, not believers on our Lord Jesus Christ.


The events in Daniel 9 through 12 about the ending of the daily sacrifices and placing of the abomination idol that makes desolate, parallels the events of Revelation 9 through 17 about the setting up of the beast image idol requiring all to worship it or be killed (Rev.13). Another temple in Jerusalem is required for that prophecy to be fulfilled in our days. The preparations those orthodox Jews in Jerusalem are making to build a third temple is Bible prophecy happenning right before our eyes.

This reveals the orthodox Jews will build their temple sometime in our near future, and re-establish the old covenant animal sacrifices and temple worship. That must happen, in order for the vile person to end the daily sacrifices and place the abomination instead per the Dan.11 and 12 prophecies, i.e., the beast image prophecy of latter Revelation 13 and the establishing of the mark of the beast. It will be then that Apostle Paul's 2 Thess.2:3-4 prophecy of a false one coming to sit in the temple of God, exalting himself as God, and over all that is called God or that is worshipped, will be fulfilled.

That false one will be the one to fulfill the "little horn" prophecy of Dan.7 & 8 which our Lord Jesus also linked to in Rev.13:2 and Rev.17:8-12 about beast kings and kingdoms.
 

daq

HSN#1851
Feb 9, 2013
821
63
0
Olam Haba
veteran said:
The "vile person" of Daniel 11 has yet to show up in Jerusalem. He is to end the daily sacrifices and place the abomination idol that makes desolate, which is the beast image we were warned of in Rev.13:11 forward. The orthodox Jews are prepared to build their temple in Jerusalem, and have prepared the articles of temple worship and selecting priests for service.

http://www.templemountfaithful.org/


A quote from those orthodox Jews in Jerusalem directly from that website --


"The goal of the Temple Mount and Land of Israel Faithful Movement is the building of the Third Temple on the Temple Mount in Jerusalem in our lifetime in accordance with the Word of G-d and all the Hebrew prophets and the liberation of the Temple Mount from Arab (Islamic) occupation so that it may be consecrated to the Name of G-d."


Those are orthodox unbelieivng Jews in Jerusalem, not believers on our Lord Jesus Christ.


The events in Daniel 9 through 12 about the ending of the daily sacrifices and placing of the abomination idol that makes desolate, parallels the events of Revelation 9 through 17 about the setting up of the beast image idol requiring all to worship it or be killed (Rev.13). Another temple in Jerusalem is required for that prophecy to be fulfilled in our days. The preparations those orthodox Jews in Jerusalem are making to build a third temple is Bible prophecy happenning right before our eyes.

This reveals the orthodox Jews will build their temple sometime in our near future, and re-establish the old covenant animal sacrifices and temple worship. That must happen, in order for the vile person to end the daily sacrifices and place the abomination instead per the Dan.11 and 12 prophecies, i.e., the beast image prophecy of latter Revelation 13 and the establishing of the mark of the beast. It will be then that Apostle Paul's 2 Thess.2:3-4 prophecy of a false one coming to sit in the temple of God, exalting himself as God, and over all that is called God or that is worshipped, will be fulfilled.

That false one will be the one to fulfill the "little horn" prophecy of Dan.7 & 8 which our Lord Jesus also linked to in Rev.13:2 and Rev.17:8-12 about beast kings and kingdoms.
There is no such word as "person" where you have quoted from. The word "person" is not there but is inserted because it is assumed by most translators. The word found there, which is "bazah", concerns is anything vile or despicable whether it be a person, a man, a spirit, or a rotting carcass. Surely you have read in Ephesians that we wrestle not against flesh and blood but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in high places?

Daniel 11:21-22 Transliterated Unaccented
21. W`amad `al- kanow nibzeh wlo'- natnuw `alayw howdmalkuwt. Uwba' bshalwah. Whechziyq malkuwt bachlaqlaqowt.
22. Uwzro`owt hasheTep yishaTpuw milpanayw wyishaberuw,wgam ngiyd briyt.


"W`amad `al- kanow nibzeh" ~ "And shall stand to his station-estate a despicable person-thing-entity"

Original Strong's Ref. #959
Romanized bazah
Pronounced baw-zaw'
a primitive root; to disesteem:
KJV--despise, disdain, contemn(-ptible), + think to scorn, vile person.


By the Way ~ The Nagiyd Briyt of Daniel 11:22, (also underlined above) is the same Nagiyd found in Daniel 9:25-26 and these be the only three places in Daniel where the word Nagiyd is found. All three of them concern Yeshua the Nagiyd-Commander of the Covenant. :)
 

veteran

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daq said:
There is no such word as "person" where you have quoted from. The word "person" is not there but is inserted because it is assumed by most translators. The word found there, which is "bazah", concerns is anything vile or despicable whether it be a person, a man, a spirit, or a rotting carcass. Surely you have read in Ephesians that we wrestle not against flesh and blood but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in high places?
The KJV translators were correct in supplying that idea of a person, simply because of the CONTEXT of the Scripture it is being given in!

Dan 11:21-24
21 And in his estate shall stand up a vile person, to whom they shall not give the honour of the kingdom: but he shall come in peaceably, and obtain the kingdom by flatteries.
22 And with the arms of a flood shall they be overflown from before him, and shall be broken; yea, also the prince of the covenant.
23 And after the league made with him he shall work deceitfully: for he shall come up, and shall become strong with a small people.
24 He shall enter peaceably even upon the fattest places of the province; and he shall do that which his fathers have not done, nor his fathers' fathers; he shall scatter among them the prey, and spoil, and riches: yea, and he shall forecast his devices against the strong holds, even for a time.
(KJV)



For that Scripture to be about a simple inanimate object, one would have to discard all those pronoun references that are in the Hebrew there also. So you have not proven anything against the translators meaning there. Hebrew 'bazah' is simply used in the adverbial sense there about that one who does those acts.
 

daq

HSN#1851
Feb 9, 2013
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Olam Haba
veteran said:
The KJV translators were correct in supplying that idea of a person, simply because of the CONTEXT of the Scripture it is being given in!

Dan 11:21-24
21 And in his estate shall stand up a vile person, to whom they shall not give the honour of the kingdom: but he shall come in peaceably, and obtain the kingdom by flatteries.
22 And with the arms of a flood shall they be overflown from before him, and shall be broken; yea, also the prince of the covenant.
23 And after the league made with him he shall work deceitfully: for he shall come up, and shall become strong with a small people.
24 He shall enter peaceably even upon the fattest places of the province; and he shall do that which his fathers have not done, nor his fathers' fathers; he shall scatter among them the prey, and spoil, and riches: yea, and he shall forecast his devices against the strong holds, even for a time.
(KJV)



For that Scripture to be about a simple inanimate object, one would have to discard all those pronoun references that are in the Hebrew there also. So you have not proven anything against the translators meaning there. Hebrew 'bazah' is simply used in the adverbial sense there about that one who does those acts.

Again not true because the things in the vision concern things which are hidden-written in Sefer Torah:

Daniel 10:20-21 YLT
20. And he saith, Hast thou known why I have come unto thee? and now I turn back to fight with the head of Persia; yea, I am going forth, and lo, the head of Javan hath come;
21. but I declare to thee that which is noted down in the Writing [HSN#3791 kathab] of Truth, and there is not one strengthening himself with me, concerning these, except Michael your head.


Original Strong's Ref. #3791
Romanized kathab
Pronounced kaw-thawb'
from HSN3789; something written, i.e. a writing, record or book:
KJV--register, scripture, writing.


How can one understand or even comply with a ketuvah if he or she cares not to even read it? :)
 

Brothertom

All for Jesus no matter the cost.
May 1, 2012
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This has been my experience & it is my testimony. If any of it is a lie...it all is.

We are in the 7 year period of Daniel...it began on Yom Kippur, September 26th, 2012......& it will end in August 21-25, 2019. The Mid-Point, March 9th, 2016, is when the Great Tribulation will begin...when the Anti-Christ get his Satanic power, & more for the False Prophet, & when the Two witnesses are anointed with Elijah-Like prophetic power.

On or near this date, America will be attacked & defeated & then occupied by foreign armies, producing a domino affect for the rest of the World, the world that this Anti-Christ is prophesied by the Lord through John, to get.

[SIZE=.75em] "It was granted to him to make war with the saints and to overcome them. And authority was given him over every tribe,[/SIZE] tongue, and nation.

All who dwell on the earth will worship him, whose names have not been written in the Book of Life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world."

This is Osama Bin Laden; I met him.

[SIZE=.75em] [/SIZE]http://brideinthewilderness.blogspot.com/2013/09/the-anti-christ-is-here-7-year.html#comment-form
 

veteran

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daq said:
Again not true because the things in the vision concern things which are hidden-written in Sefer Torah:

Daniel 10:20-21 YLT
20. And he saith, Hast thou known why I have come unto thee? and now I turn back to fight with the head of Persia; yea, I am going forth, and lo, the head of Javan hath come;
21. but I declare to thee that which is noted down in the Writing [HSN#3791 kathab] of Truth, and there is not one strengthening himself with me, concerning these, except Michael your head.


Original Strong's Ref. #3791
Romanized kathab
Pronounced kaw-thawb'
from HSN3789; something written, i.e. a writing, record or book:
KJV--register, scripture, writing.


How can one understand or even comply with a ketuvah if he or she cares not to even read it? :)
The Scripture that was in question is in Daniel chapter 11, NOT Daniel chapter 10.

Daniel 10 is a heavenly order look at prophetic events the angel is revealing to Daniel. The Daniel 11 Scripture I posted is about physical events by a false one on... the earth. Quite a difference in application between the two Scriptures.
 

daq

HSN#1851
Feb 9, 2013
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Olam Haba
veteran said:
The Scripture that was in question is in Daniel chapter 11, NOT Daniel chapter 10.

Daniel 10 is a heavenly order look at prophetic events the angel is revealing to Daniel. The Daniel 11 Scripture I posted is about physical events by a false one on... the earth. Quite a difference in application between the two Scriptures.
Daniel 10-12 is all one and the same vision:

Daniel 10:1-4 YLT
1. In the third year of Cyrus king of Persia, a thing is revealed to Daniel, whose name is called Belteshazzar, and the thing [is] true, and the warfare [is] great: and he hath understood the thing, and hath understanding about the appearance.
2. 'In those days, I, Daniel, have been mourning three weeks [shabu`iym] of days;
3. desirable bread I have not eaten, and flesh and wine hath not come in unto my mouth, and I have not anointed myself at all, till the completion of three weeks [shabu`iym] of days.
4. 'And in the twenty and fourth day of the first month, I have been by the side of the great river, that [is] Hiddekel:


Daniel 9 likewise concerns the one and same vision. For the same reason the whole remains sealed from you until your own mo`edim-appointed times appointed of the Father, (knowledge shall increase along the Way if you walk it on out unto the End). Oh how I hope and pray that the Tamiyd-continual is never taken from me again as it was in that time; for what a time of famine of the Word there was in those days! Surely then do the sons of the bridechamber mourn. :ph34r: :)
 

Retrobyter

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Shalom, veteran.

veteran said:
The Scripture that was in question is in Daniel chapter 11, NOT Daniel chapter 10.

Daniel 10 is a heavenly order look at prophetic events the angel is revealing to Daniel. The Daniel 11 Scripture I posted is about physical events by a false one on... the earth. Quite a difference in application between the two Scriptures.
veteran said:
The KJV translators were correct in supplying that idea of a person, simply because of the CONTEXT of the Scripture it is being given in!

Dan 11:21-24
21 And in his estate shall stand up a vile person, to whom they shall not give the honour of the kingdom: but he shall come in peaceably, and obtain the kingdom by flatteries.
22 And with the arms of a flood shall they be overflown from before him, and shall be broken; yea, also the prince of the covenant.
23 And after the league made with him he shall work deceitfully: for he shall come up, and shall become strong with a small people.
24 He shall enter peaceably even upon the fattest places of the province; and he shall do that which his fathers have not done, nor his fathers' fathers; he shall scatter among them the prey, and spoil, and riches: yea, and he shall forecast his devices against the strong holds, even for a time.
(KJV)



For that Scripture to be about a simple inanimate object, one would have to discard all those pronoun references that are in the Hebrew there also. So you have not proven anything against the translators meaning there. Hebrew 'bazah' is simply used in the adverbial sense there about that one who does those acts.
Yes, you are right about the word "niVzeh" applying to a person. As you noted the pronoun-translations of the verbs in the verse point to a "he" (masculine-singular) and this word is an adjective that simply doesn't have the noun that it modifies with it in the verse. Context suggests that the "he" IS the word the adjective modifies, hence it's LEGITIMATE translation in so many versions.

What I would suggest, however, is that one checks this chapter against history, for those who have researched it, comparing to the historical record, have seen the connections between them:

Seleucus II had two sons, Seleucus III Ceraunos ("Thunder") and Antiochus III the Great. Seleucus went to war with Egypt and died in the process, so the younger son became the sixth king of the Seleucid Empire. He tried to aid the Aetolians by attacking Greece, but when he sought to Rome for friendship, Rome asked that he leave Europe alone. He chose to be antagonistic and went to war with Rome. He was defeated in 190 B.C. but in the peace treaty signed at Apamea in 188 B.C., Publius Scipio, Rome's representative, demanded 20 hostages and a heavy tax to pay for damages due to the war.

Let's continue the story found at Bryan T. Huie's site, Here A Little, There A Little...
http://www.herealittletherealittle.net/index.cfm?page_name=Daniel11

He was followed by his eldest son, Seleucus IV Philopater, but, because of the huge tax levied against them by Rome, he was forced to seek an ambitious taxation policy on his shrunken empire. This included a heavy taxation on the people of Israel. In fact, Seleucus IV even sent his treasurer, Heliodorus, to the Temple in Jerusalem to extract money.

The Roman senate decided to trade hostages; therefore, they ordered Seleucus IV to send his son Demetrius, the heir to the throne, to Rome. In return, the Romans released Seleucus IV's younger brother, Antiochus IV. When released, Antiochus IV went to Athens.
In 175 BCE, after Demetrius had been sent away to Rome, Seleucus IV was poisoned by his minister Heliodorus. Some historians think that Heliodorus desired the throne for himself, while others believe that Antiochus IV was behind the murder. Seleucus' young son, (another Antiochus – age 5) was put on the throne in his place. However, Heliodorus was the actual power behind the throne.

DANIEL 11:21 "And in his place shall arise a vile person, to whom they will not give the honor of royalty; but he shall come in peaceably, and seize the kingdom by intrigue." (NKJV)

With Seleucus IV dead, the rightful heir to the throne was the young Demetrius. However, he was no longer available, having been sent to Rome as a hostage. At the time of the murder, Antiochus IV was in Athens. However, when he heard of his brother's death, he quickly sailed to Pergamum. Once there, he sought the help of Eumenes II, the king of Pergamum. By flattering Eumenes II and his brother Attalus, he received their support and backing.
Antiochus IV arrived in Seleucia with a powerful ally and thwarted Heliodorus' designs on the throne. He became co-regent and protector of Seleucus IV's infant son (also named Antiochus). In 170 BCE, the younger Antiochus was murdered while Antiochus IV was conveniently absent, paving the way for him to take sole possession of the throne.

DANIEL 11:22 "With the force of a flood they shall be swept away from before him and be broken, and also the prince of the covenant." (NKJV)

Because of his ability to charm people and ally himself with them, Antiochus IV Epiphanes ("God manifest") was able to overcome all threats to his throne. The prince of the covenant here is a reference to the Jewish high priest Onias III. He was the high priest at the time that Antiochus IV came to the throne. A brother of Onias named Joshua, who had become hellenized and changed his name to Jason, made a deal with Antiochus IV. Jason told him that he would pay Antiochus IV a large bribe if he would remove Onias and make him high priest in his place. So Antiochus IV forced Onias out and installed his brother Jason as high priest in Jerusalem in 174 BCE.
In 172 BCE, Jason sent a priest named Menelaus to Antiochus IV with his tribute money. However, Menelaus took Jason's money, added some of his own to it, and bribed Antiochus IV to secure the high priesthood for himself. Menelaus then returned to Jerusalem and deposed Jason, who fled for his life. Antiochus IV's double-cross of Jason shows the true nature of his character.

DANIEL 11:23 "And after the league is made with him he shall act deceitfully, for he shall come up and become strong with a small number of people." (NKJV)

Once again, the "king of the North" set his sights on the kingdom of the South. In Egypt, the 14-year old Ptolemy VI Philometer had become king. He was the nephew of Antiochus IV; his mother (Cleopatra I) was Antiochus IV's sister. Antiochus IV sought an alliance with Ptolemy VI, seeking to take advantage of what he perceived as weakness in the Ptolemaic kingdom and gain Egypt for himself. He moved through Syria and Judea into Egypt with a small army, so as to not arouse suspicion to his true motive, and seized Egypt. His cover story was that he was coming to act as the "protector" of his nephew, Ptolemy VI.

DANIEL 11:24 "He shall enter peaceably, even into the richest places of the province; and he shall do what his fathers have not done, nor his forefathers: he shall disperse among them the plunder, spoil, and riches; and he shall devise his plans against the strongholds, but only for a time." (NKJV)

Antiochus IV pursued a novel plan for gaining the Egyptian-controlled provinces. He moved into the parts of the kingdom that were the richest. Then he did something that no other Seleucid king had ever done. Antiochus IV spread around some of the spoils from his war campaigns to secure the loyalty of the people. The historical book of I Maccabees states that he spent much on the public (I Mac. 3:30). It is even reported that he would go into the streets and throw money to the citizens there. However, this was only the beginning of Antiochus IV's plan. Using his cunning, he visited Egyptian strongholds to find out their power.

DANIEL 11:25 "He shall stir up his power and his courage against the king of the South with a great army. And the king of the South shall be stirred up to battle with a very great and mighty army; but he shall not stand, for they shall devise plans against him." (NKJV)

In 170 BCE, when Antiochus IV felt secure about the state of his own kingdom, he decided to take Egypt by force in what came to be known as the Sixth Syrian War. He regarded Ptolemy VI as a weak ruler and therefore not capable of successfully waging war against him. Antiochus IV was able to move his army to the border of Egypt before he was met by the Egyptians at Pelusium, which is near the Nile Delta. The Egyptians had a large army arrayed against him there. Antiochus, risking death by riding into the midst of the battle of Pelusium, ordered the Egyptians to be taken alive instead of slain. By this policy, he gained Pelusium and later took Memphis.

DANIEL 11:26 "Yes, those who eat of the portion of his delicacies shall destroy him; his army shall be swept away, and many shall fall down slain." (NKJV)

Ptolemy VI's army, although large, was not able to withstand Antiochus IV. In large part, this was due to the intrigues of Antiochus IV, who corrupted several of the Egyptian ministers and officers. This was one of the main causes of the defeat of Ptolemy VI. Those who were in his confidence and possessed the secrets of the state betrayed him to Antiochus IV. For example, Ptolemy Macron (also called "Ptolemy the son of Dorymenes") had been appointed by Ptolemy VI as governor of Cyprus. However, sensing the young king's weakness, he deserted to Antiochus IV, who made him governor of Coele Syria and Phoenicia.

DANIEL 11:27 "Both these kings' hearts shall be bent on evil, and they shall speak lies at the same table; but it shall not prosper, for the end will still be at the appointed time." (NKJV)

After he took control of Pelusium and Memphis, Antiochus IV set his sights on Alexandria. Due to the intrigues of Antiochus IV mentioned in verse 26, the Alexandrians had renounced their allegiance to Ptolemy VI, and had made his younger brother, Ptolemy VII Euergetes, king in his place. While at Memphis, Antiochus IV and Ptolemy VI had frequent conferences. Antiochus IV professed his great friendship to his nephew and concern for his interests, but his true plan was to weaken Egypt by setting the brothers against one another.
Conversely, Ptolemy VI professed gratitude to his uncle for the interest he took in his affairs. He laid the blame of the war upon his minister Eulaeus, one the guardians appointed to watch over him after his father's death. All the while, Ptolemy VI sought to smooth over things with his brother Ptolemy VII so they could join forces against their deceitful uncle, Antiochus IV.

DANIEL 11:28 "While returning to his land with great riches, his heart shall be moved against the holy covenant; so he shall do damage and return to his own land." (NKJV)

While Antiochus IV was engaged in Egypt, a false rumor arose in Judea that he had been killed. This prompted deposed high priest Jason to raise an army of 1,000 men and attack Jerusalem. His army captured the city and forced the high priest Menelaus to take refuge in the Akra fortress in Jerusalem. When news of the fighting in Jerusalem reached Antiochus IV, he took it to mean that Judea was in revolt against him.
Antiochus IV left Egypt; on his way home, he and his armies marched against Jerusalem. He commanded his soldiers to kill everyone they encountered (men, women, and children). Within the space of three days, his forces had killed somewhere between 40,000 and 80,000 people. A similar number were captured and sold into slavery.
Not satisfied with the slaughter, Antiochus IV entered the Temple and (guided by Menelaus) took the holy vessels, including the golden altar, the menorah, the table for the showbread, the cups for drink offerings, the bowls, the golden censers, the curtain, the crowns, and the gold decoration on the front of the temple. He took all the silver and gold, as well as the hidden treasures which he found. After appointing the Phrygian Phillip as governor in Jerusalem, Antiochus IV then returned to Antioch.

DANIEL 11:29 "At the appointed time he shall return and go toward the south; but it shall not be like the former or the latter." (NKJV)

Meanwhile, in Egypt brothers Ptolemy VI and Ptolemy VII reconciled and agreed to share power. This annulled Antiochus IV's alliance with Ptolemy VI and caused his loss of control over the Ptolemaic kingdom. Because of this, in 168 BCE Antiochus IV once again sought to go to war against Egypt. However, this time he would not have the same success as he achieved previously.

DANIEL 11:30 "For ships from Cyprus [Kittim] shall come against him; therefore he shall be grieved, and return in rage against the holy covenant, and do damage. So he shall return and show regard for those who forsake the holy covenant." (NKJV)

Because they knew that they could not defeat Antiochus IV alone, the Ptolemy brothers appealed to Rome for help. In order to check the threat of Greek expansion, the Romans agreed to provide assistance. The "ships from Kittim" here refer to the ships which brought the Roman legions to Egypt in fulfillment of the defense pact.
As Antiochus IV and his army marched toward Alexandria, they were met by three Roman senators led by Gaius Popillius Laenas in Eleusis, a suburb of Alexandria. There, Roman ambassador Popillius delivered to Antiochus IV the Senate's demand that he withdraw from Egypt. When the king requested time for consultation, Popillius drew a circle around Antiochus IV with a stick he was carrying and told him not to leave the circle until he gave his response. The king of the North was astonished at this display of Roman arrogance, but after a brief time, said he would do all that the Romans demanded.
On his return to Syria, Antiochus IV tried to ease the sting of the humiliation he had suffered at the hands of the Romans by taking out his frustration on the Jews in Judea. His armies encircled Jerusalem and then attacked. All those Jews who resisted were executed. However, the pro Hellenistic Jews who allied themselves with Antiochus IV were left unharmed.

DANIEL 11:31 "And forces shall be mustered by him, and they shall defile the sanctuary fortress; then they shall take away the daily sacrifices, and place there the abomination of desolation." (NKJV)

Antiochus IV's army desecrated the Temple and stopped the daily sacrifices. On the 15th of Kislev, in December 168 BCE, the Syrians built a pagan altar over the altar of burnt offering in the Temple and placed an image of Zeus Olympius upon it. Ten days later, on the 25th of Kislev, swine's flesh was offered on the altar to Zeus.

DANIEL 11:32 "Those who do wickedly against the covenant he shall corrupt with flattery; but the people who know their God shall be strong, and carry out great exploits." (NKJV)

After venting his anger upon the Jews and desecrating the Temple, Antiochus IV decreed that his entire kingdom should become one people, each giving up his own customs. The other peoples under his rule accepted Antiochus IV's command. Because of his flattering approach, many of the people of Israel also forsook the Law and adopted his religion.
Antiochus IV commanded a change in all the ordinances of God. No sacrifices were to be offered in the sanctuary, the Sabbaths and feasts were to be profaned, and that the Jews were not to circumcise their sons. Upon pain of death, they were commanded to profane the true religion so that eventually the Law would be forgotten. Antiochus IV appointed inspectors to watch the Jews and commanded the cities of Judah to offer pagan sacrifices. Yet many in Israel stood firm and rejected the innovations of the king of the North.

DANIEL 11:33 "And those of the people who understand shall instruct many; yet for many days they shall fall by sword and flame, by captivity and plundering." (NKJV)

Whenever Antiochus IV's men found copies of the Torah, they tore them to pieces and burned them. Whoever was found in possession of a Torah was put to death. According to Antiochus IV's decree, women who had their children circumcised were put to death, along with their entire families and those who had circumcised them. Still, many in Israel chose to die rather than to break the holy covenant.

DANIEL 11:34 "Now when they fall, they shall be aided with a little help; but many shall join with them by intrigue." (NKJV)

As the historical book of I Maccabees shows, the decrees of Antiochus IV eventually led to a rebellion started by the priest Mattathias and his five sons (including Judas Maccabee). He and his family had fled from Jerusalem to Modein when the Seleucid forces took the city. There, Mattathias killed a Jew who was sacrificing according to Antiochus IV's command, as well as the king's officer who was forcing them to sacrifice. From this first act of rebellion, a guerilla war against the forces of Antiochus IV began. After the death of his father Mattathias in 167 BCE, Judas Maccabee defeated the large army of Antiochus IV's general Apollonius. This victory helped Judas to gather a sizable force; however, only a minority of the soldiers were actually faithful men.
Next, Seron, the commander of the Syrian army, came against the forces of Judas. His army was also defeated by Judas, and his fame spread all the way to Antioch. King Antiochus IV was greatly angered by the exploits of Judas and his men, and he gathered his army. He opened the royal treasury and gave his soldiers a year's wages, ordering them to be ready for whatever action needed to be taken.
This approach quickly emptied the royal treasury of funds and made it necessary for Antiochus IV to seek additional tribute and spoil from his lands. In 166 BCE, he decided to go to Persia to collect or seize by force the needed money. Antiochus IV left his general Lysias in charge of his son and half of his army, with instructions to attack and destroy Jerusalem and Judea. Lysias sent an army of 40,000 infantry and 7,000 cavalry and marched into Judea. He met the forces of Judas Maccabee (3,000 poorly equipped men) near Emmaus. However, despite being vastly outnumbered, Judas' army routed the Syrians, killing 3,000 and putting the rest to flight.
In 165 BCE, Lysias again sent the Syrian army (now numbering 60,000 infantrymen and 5,000 cavalry) against the Jewish forces, which had risen to 10,000. This time, 5,000 Syrians were killed and Lysias fled back to Antioch. Because of his great victory, Judas and his men were able to recapture the Temple.
The pious Jews cleansed and renewed it, and on Kislev 25, 165 BCE, three years to the day after the first abominable sacrifice had been offered, the new altar was rededicated and holy sacrifices offered. The Jews celebrated the rededication of the Temple for eight days. In memory of the Jewish victory and rededication of the Temple, Judas Maccabee decreed that the Feast of Dedication (called Chanukah in Hebrew) was to be observed every year thereafter for eight days, beginning on Kislev 25.
In 164 BCE, Antiochus IV's army was defeated at Elymais, Persia when he attempted to plunder the city of its gold and silver. Soon thereafter, a messenger came from Antioch and notified him of the defeat of his armies by Judas and the Jews. Terribly shaken by these events, he fell sick and became bedridden. Antiochus IV died shortly after that.

DANIEL 11:35 "And some of those of understanding shall fall, to refine them, purify them, and make them white, until the time of the end; because it is still for the appointed time." (NKJV)

When the Gentile nations around Judea heard of their victory over the Seleucids, they became very angry. They began to kill those Jews who lived among them. Judas Maccabee and his brother Simon went out to fight against those Gentiles who sought to kill the Jews and defeated them.
After the death of Judas Maccabee in battle in 161 BCE, persecution continued upon the Jews, as history records. Many wicked Jews who had opposed Judas and his goals took opportunity after his death to persecute and kill righteous Jews.

Beginning with Mattathias' leadership of the rebellion against Antiochus IV, the rule of the Hasmoneans (named after Mattathias' grandfather, Asmoneus) lasted from 168 until 37 BCE. The words "until the time of the end" refer to the end of this second period of Jewish sovereignty. The "appointed time" refers to the 70 weeks of years that Gabriel had earlier told Daniel about (Dan. 9:24-27), which led to the appearance of the Messiah.
There's too much here to ignore, and this is just a sample of what is available just in this one chapter! SO much history in one little passage! SO much water under the bridge! But, all of this was already FULFILLED in the person of the vile, disgusting, little man, Antiochus IV "Epiphanes." With a mouth smooth and sweet as honey and a dagger behind his back, HE was the "vile person" of 11:21.

I've said it before and I'll say it again: There's a corollary in the field of prophecy to the adage, "Those who don't learn from history are doomed to repeat it," and it goes like this: "Those who don't learn that prophecy is fulfilled in history are doomed to THINK that it must be repeated!"
 

veteran

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Retrobyter said:
Shalom, veteran.



Yes, you are right about the word "niVzeh" applying to a person. As you noted the pronoun-translations of the verbs in the verse point to a "he" (masculine-singular) and this word is an adjective that simply doesn't have the noun that it modifies with it in the verse. Context suggests that the "he" IS the word the adjective modifies, hence it's LEGITIMATE translation in so many versions.

What I would suggest, however, is that one checks this chapter against history, for those who have researched it, comparing to the historical record, have seen the connections between them:

....

There's too much here to ignore, and this is just a sample of what is available just in this one chapter! SO much history in one little passage! SO much water under the bridge! But, all of this was already FULFILLED in the person of the vile, disgusting, little man, Antiochus IV "Epiphanes." With a mouth smooth and sweet as honey and a dagger behind his back, HE was the "vile person" of 11:21.

I've said it before and I'll say it again: There's a corollary in the field of prophecy to the adage, "Those who don't learn from history are doomed to repeat it," and it goes like this: "Those who don't learn that prophecy is fulfilled in history are doomed to THINK that it must be repeated!"
Yes, I am somewhat familiar with that history, particularly about Antiochus IV. The Daniel 11 prophecy fits what he did in 165-170 B.C. almost to a tee.

But... in Matthew 24:15 Christ Jesus put the placing of the "abomination of desolation" from the Book of Daniel into the future long after Antiochus IV had been dead. That was approximately 200 years after Antiochus IV when Jesus revealed the AOD yet to be fulfilled. This is why I mentioned to you before on other threads about the Dan.11 Scripture serving as a 'blueprint' for what the near-future false messiah will do for the very end.

I don't like the fact that many of brother Judah are going to be deceived by the coming false messiah in connection with the third temple they intend to build again in Jerusalem in our time. But that is the delusion that is upon those who have rejected our Lord Jesus of Nazareth as Messiah. Like Jesus said to the unbelieving Jews, that He came in His Father's Name and they received Him not; if another shall come in his own name him they will receive (John 5:43). Those of us who have believed on Jesus Christ - Yeshua Messiah, are not to be a part of that fold which will receive the coming false messiah.
 

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I do not believe there necessarily has to be a second Temple built: The Holy Place hasn't moved; it is within the Al Aqsa Mosque in Jerusalem. The AOD? I think it is when the strange, magical talking statue is placed at this Holy Place....seemingly living stone.....& it proclaims the Anti-Christ as Mohammed/Allah/Jehovah in the flesh....& whoever does not worship this apparition of rock, must be killed...thereby the Abomination that makes dead...or desolate.

But...What then would be the Daily Sacrifice?.that must be ended...if there were no Temple? I do not know. We can only speculate.
 

Retrobyter

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Shalom, veteran.

veteran said:
Yes, I am somewhat familiar with that history, particularly about Antiochus IV. The Daniel 11 prophecy fits what he did in 165-170 B.C. almost to a tee.

But... in Matthew 24:15 Christ Jesus put the placing of the "abomination of desolation" from the Book of Daniel into the future long after Antiochus IV had been dead. That was approximately 200 years after Antiochus IV when Jesus revealed the AOD yet to be fulfilled. This is why I mentioned to you before on other threads about the Dan.11 Scripture serving as a 'blueprint' for what the near-future false messiah will do for the very end.

I don't like the fact that many of brother Judah are going to be deceived by the coming false messiah in connection with the third temple they intend to build again in Jerusalem in our time. But that is the delusion that is upon those who have rejected our Lord Jesus of Nazareth as Messiah. Like Jesus said to the unbelieving Jews, that He came in His Father's Name and they received Him not; if another shall come in his own name him they will receive (John 5:43). Those of us who have believed on Jesus Christ - Yeshua Messiah, are not to be a part of that fold which will receive the coming false messiah.
The problem with Matthew 24:15 is merely in the wording between Greek and Hebrew. It looks and sounds like it would be closer to Daniel 11 when both are translated into English, but Yeshua`s words in Matthew 24:15 are actually referring to Daniel 9:27, not Daniel 11:31. Leave Daniel 11:31 in the past with Antiochus IV "Epiphanes," and stick with the future reference in Daniel 9:27, and it is to be fulfilled in the future because YESHUA` forced it into the future by leaving their household "desolate" (Matthew 23:38), partially fulfilling Daniel 9:27.

That takes the book of Daniel out of the picture for the "Antichrist" (or rather, the "Beast"), except for the "Little Horn" part of the Daniel 7 prophecy (Daniel 7:8). I believe that the Beast WAS revealed in that prophetic vision, and he CERTAINLY is revealed in 2 Thessalonians and Revelation.

I can understand how no one puts any stock in what I say. I'm just a single voice crying out in a VAST wilderness of thoughts and ideas. So, I don't mean to "beat a dead horse," but any portion of the "Antichrist" belief set that is based on prophecy in the book of Daniel chapters 9 through 12 ought to be discarded, although one can keep the rest of the belief set that comes from 2 Thessalonians and Revelation. That's all I'm saying.
 

veteran

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Retrobyter said:
Leave Daniel 11:31 in the past with Antiochus IV "Epiphanes," and stick with the future reference in Daniel 9:27, and it is to be fulfilled in the future because YESHUA` forced it into the future by leaving their household "desolate" (Matthew 23:38), partially fulfilling Daniel 9:27.
It is not possible to do that. The one that ends the daily sacrifice in Dan.8:11-13 & Dan.9:27 is the same one who ends the daily sacrifice in Dan.11:31. None of those verses are about our Lord Jesus ending the daily sacrifice, but the coming false one is who does that.

All of those Daniel Scriptures about that false one relate to the very end of this world, which is why the Revelation 13:5-7 events parallel the events of Daniel 7:21-25, Daniel 8:24, Daniel 11:36-39, Daniel 12:1.
 

Retrobyter

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Shalom, veteran.

veteran said:
It is not possible to do that. The one that ends the daily sacrifice in Dan.8:11-13 & Dan.9:27 is the same one who ends the daily sacrifice in Dan.11:31. None of those verses are about our Lord Jesus ending the daily sacrifice, but the coming false one is who does that.

All of those Daniel Scriptures about that false one relate to the very end of this world, which is why the Revelation 13:5-7 events parallel the events of Daniel 7:21-25, Daniel 8:24, Daniel 11:36-39, Daniel 12:1.
Aw, sure it is, bro'! Just quit using the term as though it was a LABEL! All three instances in Dani'el are NOT talking about the same thing, even though the wording is somewhat similar. While Dani'el 8:9-13 and 11:31 are talking about Antiochus IV "Epiphanes," Dani'el 9:24-27 is talking about a MUCH longer time period that runs to the time of Messiah.

Daniel 8:5-14
5 And as I was considering, behold, an he goat came from the west on the face of the whole earth, and touched not the ground: and the goat had a notable horn between his eyes.
6 And he came to the ram that had two horns, which I had there seen standing before the river, and ran unto him in the fury of his power.
7 And I saw him come close unto the ram, and he was moved with choler against him, and smote the ram, and brake his two horns: and there was no power in the ram to stand before him, but he cast him down to the ground, and stamped upon him: and there was none that could deliver the ram out of his hand.
8 Therefore the he goat waxed very great: and when he was strong, the great horn was broken; and for it came up four notable ones toward the four winds of heaven.
9 And out of one of them came forth a little horn, which waxed exceeding great, toward the south, and toward the east, and toward the pleasant land.
10 And it waxed great, even to the host of heaven; and it cast down some of the host and of the stars to the ground, and stamped upon them.
11 Yea, he magnified himself even to the prince of the host, and by him the daily sacrifice was taken away, and the place of his sanctuary was cast down.
12 And an host was given him against the daily sacrifice by reason of transgression, and it cast down the truth to the ground; and it practised, and prospered.
13 Then I heard one saint speaking, and another saint said unto that certain saint which spake, How long shall be the vision concerning the daily sacrifice, and the transgression of desolation, to give both the sanctuary and the host to be trodden under foot?
14 And he said unto me, Unto two thousand and three hundred days; then shall the sanctuary be cleansed.
KJV

The ram with two horns represented the Persian Empire, consisting of the Medes and the Persians. The rough goat represented Macedonia (Greece) and the notable horn between his eyes represented Alexander the Great. When Macedonia had grown large, Alexander was broken and from him arose four notable horns in the four compass directions, which represented his four generals under whom Alexander's empire was split into four kingdoms. The "little horn" that came out of one of them represented Antiochus IV "Epiphanes" who "waxed exceeding great, toward the south (against the Ptolemaic Kingdom), and toward the east (conquering land all the way to China and India), and toward the pleasant land (the Land of Israel)." And, it was "by him the daily sacrifice was taken away, and the place of his sanctuary was cast down."
 

veteran

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Retrobyter said:
Shalom, veteran.


Aw, sure it is, bro'! Just quit using the term as though it was a LABEL! All three instances in Dani'el are NOT talking about the same thing, even though the wording is somewhat similar. While Dani'el 8:9-13 and 11:31 are talking about Antiochus IV "Epiphanes," Dani'el 9:24-27 is talking about a MUCH longer time period that runs to the time of Messiah.

Daniel 8:5-14
5 And as I was considering, behold, an he goat came from the west on the face of the whole earth, and touched not the ground: and the goat had a notable horn between his eyes.
6 And he came to the ram that had two horns, which I had there seen standing before the river, and ran unto him in the fury of his power.
7 And I saw him come close unto the ram, and he was moved with choler against him, and smote the ram, and brake his two horns: and there was no power in the ram to stand before him, but he cast him down to the ground, and stamped upon him: and there was none that could deliver the ram out of his hand.
8 Therefore the he goat waxed very great: and when he was strong, the great horn was broken; and for it came up four notable ones toward the four winds of heaven.
9 And out of one of them came forth a little horn, which waxed exceeding great, toward the south, and toward the east, and toward the pleasant land.
10 And it waxed great, even to the host of heaven; and it cast down some of the host and of the stars to the ground, and stamped upon them.
11 Yea, he magnified himself even to the prince of the host, and by him the daily sacrifice was taken away, and the place of his sanctuary was cast down.
12 And an host was given him against the daily sacrifice by reason of transgression, and it cast down the truth to the ground; and it practised, and prospered.
13 Then I heard one saint speaking, and another saint said unto that certain saint which spake, How long shall be the vision concerning the daily sacrifice, and the transgression of desolation, to give both the sanctuary and the host to be trodden under foot?
14 And he said unto me, Unto two thousand and three hundred days; then shall the sanctuary be cleansed.
KJV

The ram with two horns represented the Persian Empire, consisting of the Medes and the Persians. The rough goat represented Macedonia (Greece) and the notable horn between his eyes represented Alexander the Great. When Macedonia had grown large, Alexander was broken and from him arose four notable horns in the four compass directions, which represented his four generals under whom Alexander's empire was split into four kingdoms. The "little horn" that came out of one of them represented Antiochus IV "Epiphanes" who "waxed exceeding great, toward the south (against the Ptolemaic Kingdom), and toward the east (conquering land all the way to China and India), and toward the pleasant land (the Land of Israel)." And, it was "by him the daily sacrifice was taken away, and the place of his sanctuary was cast down."
You, like many, have missed an important part of the prophecy for the end involving those beast kingdoms. It's in Dan.2 & 3 which reveals a 5th beast kingdom of ten toes of part iron and clay for the very end, with ALL... of the beast statue falling 'together' when Christ comes to smite it upon its feet. That's pointing to all the beast kingdoms of old being revived as part of the 5th final one of ten toes of iron mixed with clay, which Christ smites when He returns at the end of our present world. This is why Jesus linked the Dan.7 beast objects to the final beast kingdom per Rev.13:1-2 and Rev.17 about the ten kings and the one they rule with for one hour.
 

Retrobyter

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Shalom, veteran.

veteran said:
You, like many, have missed an important part of the prophecy for the end involving those beast kingdoms. It's in Dan.2 & 3 which reveals a 5th beast kingdom of ten toes of part iron and clay for the very end, with ALL... of the beast statue falling 'together' when Christ comes to smite it upon its feet. That's pointing to all the beast kingdoms of old being revived as part of the 5th final one of ten toes of iron mixed with clay, which Christ smites when He returns at the end of our present world. This is why Jesus linked the Dan.7 beast objects to the final beast kingdom per Rev.13:1-2 and Rev.17 about the ten kings and the one they rule with for one hour.
I didn't miss it, brother. It's just not part of Daniel 8! Daniel 8 doesn't go that far into the future! Now, Daniel 11 and 12 DO go into the Roman Empire some, but only for Caesar Augustus and Herod the Great under the Roman power. Daniel 8 only goes through the Hasmonean Rule and Judas Maccabees and his brothers. Not every prophecy is about OUR future! Some prophecies were about 500 years into their future, not "for many days," but were about the coming of the Messiah, not the end of the world!

I don't have a problem with Daniel 2, Daniel 7 or your understanding of Revelation 13 and 17. All I'm saying is that Daniel 8 (and Daniel 11 and 12) are NOT PART OF IT!
 

veteran

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Retrobyter said:
Shalom, veteran.


I didn't miss it, brother. It's just not part of Daniel 8! Daniel 8 doesn't go that far into the future! Now, Daniel 11 and 12 DO go into the Roman Empire some, but only for Caesar Augustus and Herod the Great under the Roman power. Daniel 8 only goes through the Hasmonean Rule and Judas Maccabees and his brothers. Not every prophecy is about OUR future! Some prophecies were about 500 years into their future, not "for many days," but were about the coming of the Messiah, not the end of the world!

I don't have a problem with Daniel 2, Daniel 7 or your understanding of Revelation 13 and 17. All I'm saying is that Daniel 8 (and Daniel 11 and 12) are NOT PART OF IT!
But in reality you have missed that. All the beast statue pieces must be together when Christ comes per Dan.2. The legs of iron was the 4th beast kingdom of the old pagan Roman empire. But iron is used again with the feet of ten toes mixed with clay, which is a 5th beast kingdom, the final one, the one Christ revealed in Revelation. It will encompass all the other statue pieces, as Dan.2 reveals they are all together when Christ comes to smite that final 5th one upon its feet. It's very simple actually.

It would appear that you're stuck on Dan.7 where the angel only stated 4 beast kingdoms to Daniel. But even that Dan.7 chapter includes the same timeline for the very end, just as Dan.8 does also...

Dan 8:9-14
9 And out of one of them came forth a little horn, which waxed exceeding great, toward the south, and toward the east, and toward the pleasant land.
10 And it waxed great, even to the host of heaven; and it cast down some of the host and of the stars to the ground, and stamped upon them.
11 Yea, he magnified himself even to the prince of the host, and by him the daily sacrifice was taken away, and the place of his sanctuary was cast down.
12 And an host was given him against the daily sacrifice by reason of transgression, and it cast down the truth to the ground; and it practised, and prospered.
13 Then I heard one saint speaking, and another saint said unto that certain saint which spake, How long shall be the vision concerning the daily sacrifice, and the transgression of desolation, to give both the sanctuary and the host to be trodden under foot?
14 And he said unto me, Unto two thousand and three hundred days; then shall the sanctuary be cleansed.
(KJV)


Dan 8:17
17 So he came near where I stood: and when he came, I was afraid, and fell upon my face: but he said unto me,
Understand, O son of man: for at the time of the end shall be the vision.
(KJV)
 

that_prophet

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[SIZE=medium]We are one and a half years into the pre-Trib (Tribulation)[/SIZE]
[SIZE=medium]We are the generation that shall not pass,(die)[/SIZE]
[SIZE=medium]Our generation will pass by or before 2019.1 (2020 Vision)[/SIZE]
[SIZE=medium]please search doorschristmustpassthrough + yolasite[/SIZE]
[SIZE=medium]the pre-Trib started on March 14th[/SIZE] , 2012
[SIZE=medium]there is not much time left
We are one and a half years into the pre-Trib (Tribulation)
there is less than 6 years before the Tribulation must begin
[/SIZE]
[SIZE=medium]We are the generation that shall not pass,(die)
the six day war was when the final generation started
[/SIZE]
[SIZE=medium]We can come up with 51.6 years for the last generation [/SIZE]
[SIZE=medium]from the 14+14+14 generations of the first chapter of Mathew[/SIZE]
[SIZE=12pt]Our generation will pass by or before 2019.1 (2020 Vision)
warning to all who are Born Again
[/SIZE]
[SIZE=12pt]our blessed hope comes before[/SIZE][SIZE=12pt] this Door happens [/SIZE]