How could the Messiah be sinless?

[mjrhealth]

:crickets

Grasshoppers

 

[justbyfaith]

So now that it wasnt Christ that dies but God, we have no salvation, thanks for doing the devils work for Him.

God is Christ and Christ is God. When you have God dying, you have Christ dying. When you have Christ dying, you have God dying (in the separation of the soul and spirit from the body).

I am not doing the devil's work. Christ claimed to be the great I AM of Exodus 3:14, John 8:58; and the Pharisees understood what He was claiming, John 8:59 and John 10:31-33.

 

[Joseph77]

A broken mind ? A broken spirit ? Confused ? What deceptions or pain could have happened (though no excusing unbelief),
that
would drive a man or woman or child to deny Jesus is God ? Oh the terror in their dark souls, the harm done to them perhaps by another ? (woe to that other - to anyone who causes a little one to stumble ) ...the harm to come in judgment .... whatever it is - righteously as God Knows Perfectly....

Jesus as God became man, born in this wicked world, and died a crucifixion planned before the world was created thru Jesus.

He was the sacrifice for our sins and the sins of mankind -
His Blood , GOD'S BLOOD, the payment, the atonement for our sins ! HOW GLORIOUS! HOW MIRACULOUS!

 

[DNB]

Lol, does it not seem absurd that God would desire to create us puny humans in the first place? Lots of things seem absurd at first glance because we don't fully understand God's nature, and we never will on this side of death.
I think you meant mans fallibility, not infallibility, BTW.
I'm still not sure what you think your demonstrated with the Atonement, as I saw nothing there that disproves the deity of Christ.

Yes, but God's reasons for the universe can be rationalized, without question. And, it has been, as it states that Christ was the first-born of creation, meaning the grounds behind God's creative endeavour....
Yes, you're right, I meant fallibility, thank you!
With the Atonement, I meant to disclose the unnecessary requirement of a god-man as a propitiatory sacrifice to God. In other words, there is no need for inexplicable mystery. I had said, that even one's soteriology is absurd if we bring the trinity into the picture. You said, many things appear absurd with God, it was my intent to prove otherwise.
Again, I believe that you are inferring a synonymous meaning between hidden wisdom, and incomprehensible. Very big difference.

 

[DNB]

That was on you since you had been evading it for long now.


First you said in your other post that "The message of the Christ is that man can find redemption through the perfect sacrifice of Jesus Christ." From which I asked the question "What is foolishness in that, if that is the message of the cross? Why do the Greeks who seeks after wisdom find that to be foolishness, if that is the message of the cross?". And to which you responded with this post of yours, which does not really address the question. So, do not be surprised if ever I ask the question again to you, as though, it was uncalled for.

To comment on this post of yours, I can see that you have given us a picture of how the proud and epicureans, and the shallow and unwise, perceives the message of the cross. But what I was asking is with regards what scriptures said, that is, that the message of the cross is foolishness to the wise such as were those referred to by Paul as "the Greeks", in those days. Well,....

Anyway, let me just move on and tell you this, that when scriptures said that the message of the cross is foolishness to the Greeks, it presents the gospel preached as a contradiction to human wisdom. Its message of a crucified Messiah, does not appeal to human wisdom, which to those that the world considers wise, is foolishness. The message of the cross, as perceived according to human wisdom, is foolishness, not because the crucifixion of a person in those days was foolishness, for it was not. But here is what makes it foolishness to them who were considered the wise in those days ~ the preaching by the apostles about the person crucified, that is, Jesus. More than that they preach that Jesus is the Christ, what they testify to, teach, and preach about the Christ is what makes the message of the cross as utter foolishness to the wise Greeks of those days. Among the many truths they testify to, teach, and preach about the Christ is that He is the Savior; that He is the Lord whose way John the baptist prepared upon His coming into the world; that by Him all things were created that are in heaven and that are on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or principalities or powers; that all things were created through Him and for Him, that He is before all things; that in Him all things consist; that without Him nothing was made that was made; that He is the Alpha and the Omega, the First and the Last; King of kings and the Lord of lords; etc., etc.. In other words, they testify to, teach, and preach, that the Christ is the Almighty God.

Thus, the message of the cross, to them who were considered the wise in those days, and I think even now in our days, is utter foolishness according to human wisdom.

You said regarding the message of the cross, "But the insightful, humble and reverent, perceive the wisdom of God behind it." But here's what Paul said in scriptures relative to this, "For Jews request a sign, and Greeks seek after wisdom; but we preach Christ crucified, to the Jews a stumbling block and to the Greeks foolishness, but to those who are called, both Jews and Greeks, Christ the power of God and the wisdom of God."

Tong
R0858

No Tong, the foolishness of the Cross is exactly what I said it was, it had nothing to do with Jesus being God. Paul's emphasis was on the principle of crucified, this was the defaming and ignoble factor that repulsed the proud. And it was the perceived lack of favour from God to save him, that caused indignation from the Jews.
'...not because the crucifixion of a person in those days was foolishness...' Preaching a crucified king and Messiah was foolishness Tong, and this is the full extent of the context of Paul's remark.
You're way off Tong, your understanding of the Gospel is just getting ridiculous!
Your final sentence stated the wisdom of God, and yet, YOU HAVE YET TO MAKE ANY WISDOM OUT OF IT!!!
You keep running in circles like a chicken with your head cut-off, and making as much sense as that. You keep digressing around the points that I'm making, then when it comes to bring some rationality to the ridiculous trinity doctrine, as you claim that there is some, you make a stupid unqualified remark '...Christ the Power and Wisdom of God...', as if you justified the trinity in any manner.
Tong, I don't mean to be rude, but both you, and no one else, is qualified to talk about this inane and subversive man-made doctrine.

 

[bbyrd009]

God is Christ and Christ is God. When you have God dying, you have Christ dying. When you have Christ dying, you have God dying (in the separation of the soul and spirit from the body).

I am not doing the devil's work. Christ claimed to be the great I AM of Exodus 3:14, John 8:58; and the Pharisees understood what He was claiming, John 8:59 and John 10:31-33.

A broken mind ? A broken spirit ? Confused ? What deceptions or pain could have happened (though no excusing unbelief),
that
would drive a man or woman or child to deny Jesus is God ? Oh the terror in their dark souls, the harm done to them perhaps by another ? (woe to that other - to anyone who causes a little one to stumble ) ...the harm to come in judgment .... whatever it is - righteously as God Knows Perfectly....

Jesus as God became man, born in this wicked world, and died a crucifixion planned before the world was created thru Jesus.

He was the sacrifice for our sins and the sins of mankind -
His Blood , GOD'S BLOOD, the payment, the atonement for our sins ! HOW GLORIOUS! HOW MIRACULOUS!

ha, you guys...
look, i know you both to be very thoughtful and surely conscientious ppl, ok, but i think you both know that there is more to the story than you are professing? As fact?
and i know the apparent truth which might be derived from Scripture maybe strikes a believer as unpleasant, or even unthinkable, but i would ask you to contemplate the unthinkable, if you will

 

[Joseph77]

ha, you guys...
look, i know you both to be very thoughtful and surely conscientious ppl, ok, but i think you both know that there is more to the story than you are professing? As fact?
and i know the apparent truth which might be derived from Scripture maybe strikes a believer as unpleasant, or even unthinkable, but i would ask you to contemplate the unthinkable, if you will

The unthinkable ? Why or what about the Truth of Scripture is unthinkable /

Some day many who reject the Law, the Torah, will be told:

"... Then I will tell them plainly, 'I never knew you; depart from Me, you workers of lawlessness!'"

 

[bbyrd009]

The unthinkable ? Why or what about the Truth of Scripture is unthinkable

you and your sons will be here with me
No son of man may die for another's sins
all go to the same place
no one knows where they go when they die
No one has ever gone up to heaven
eternity = "a space of time, an age"

 

[justbyfaith]

The unthinkable ? Why or what about the Truth of Scripture is unthinkable /

Some day many who reject the Law, the Torah, will be told:

"... Then I will tell them plainly, 'I never knew you; depart from Me, you workers of lawlessness!'"

The kjv renders that "iniquity."

A case can be made that "lawlessness" and "iniquity" are not the same thing.

For example, the scripture is clear that we are not under the law (Romans 6:14), are dead to the law (Romans 7:4, Galatians 2:19) and are delivered from the law (Romans 7:6). Someone taking a first look at this might consider it to be "lawlessness"; however it does not result in iniquity. In the first (Romans 6:14) it is clear that sin shall not have dominion over you because you are not under the law but under grace.

In all reality, these things do not make one "lawless". For those who are delivered from the law of Moses are nevertheless governed by the law of faith (Romans 3:27) even the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus (Romans 8:2).

We are governed by the law (even of the Old and New Testaments) from the inside (Hebrews 8:8-10, Hebrews 10:16, Romans 8:7, Romans 8:4); while we are not condemned by it from the outside (because we are dead to, delivered from, and no longer under the law).

 

[bbyrd009]

So you must be careful to do everything they tell you. But do not do what they do, for they do not practice what they preach.

Some day many who reject the Law, the Torah, will be told:

Then I will tell them plainly, 'I never knew you; depart from Me, you workers of lawlessness!'

wadr i dont think that really honors the Scripture there, which seems to me at least to be denying those who do not do Yah's will?
but only the one who does the will of My Father in heaven.
so, not saying that you couldnt extrapolate "Some day many who reject the Law, the Torah, will be told:" that, but wadr i even seem to recall a v that says pretty much ezackly the opposite?

 

[Joseph77]

So you must be careful to do everything they tell you. But do not do what they do, for they do not practice what they preach.

wadr i dont think that really honors the Scripture there, which seems to me at least to be denying those who do not do Yah's will?
but only the one who does the will of My Father in heaven.
so, not saying that you couldnt extrapolate "Some day many who reject the Law, the Torah, will be told:" that, but wadr i even seem to recall a v that says pretty much ezackly the opposite?

No, God's Word never contradicts Himself....

 

[justbyfaith]

So you must be careful to do everything they tell you. But do not do what they do, for they do not practice what they preach.

wadr i dont think that really honors the Scripture there, which seems to me at least to be denying those who do not do Yah's will?
but only the one who does the will of My Father in heaven.
so, not saying that you couldnt extrapolate "Some day many who reject the Law, the Torah, will be told:" that, but wadr i even seem to recall a v that says pretty much ezackly the opposite?

Obviously not "exactly" the opposite, because you cannot spell exactly, exactly.

 

[bbyrd009]

ok, ty jbf

No, God's Word never contradicts Himself....

provide for your family
dont work for food

but maybe for now you might address the Torah rejection/I never knew you deal, if you would?

 

[Joseph77]

provide for your family
dont work for food

but maybe for now you might address the Torah rejection/I never knew you deal, if you would?

Read for yourself how many reject Torah, reject the Law, reject The Creators Instructions, daily .... it is not good, but be aware ...

 

[bbyrd009]

Read for yourself how many reject Torah, reject the Law, reject The Creators Instructions, daily .... it is not good, but be aware ...

well wadr right now you have me in the position of saying "i dont think Jesus said that," and im trying to let you um off the hook lol. Bc that is not what was said, really?

 

[Joseph77]

well wadr right now you have me in the position of saying "i dont think Jesus said that," and im trying to let you um off the hook lol. Bc that is not what was said, really?

What you think or do not think ? If you read the Scripture, you do not have to guess any more at all. (God Willing) ..... nor should any of us guess if we are following Jesus and the Father reveals His Word.

 

[bbyrd009]

What you think or do not think ? If you read the Scripture, you do not have to guess any more at all. (God Willing) ..... nor should any of us guess if we are following Jesus and the Father reveals His Word.

ah, so

 

[Joseph77]

"... Then I will tell them plainly, 'I never knew you; depart from Me, you workers of lawlessness!'"

ok, ty jbf
but maybe for now you might address the Torah rejection/I never knew you deal, if you would?

That's what lawlessness is....

 

[bbyrd009]

That's what lawlessness is....

well, close enough maybe, i dunno; id say that rejection of Torah does not exactly = "worker of lawlessness" though?

 

[Joseph77]

well, close enough maybe, i dunno; id say that rejection of Torah does not exactly = "worker of lawlessness" though?

It is, throughout Scripture. This is just a beginning for you today.