How could the Messiah be sinless?

[mjrhealth]

He is the Father even the Son.

His Spirit is the Father.

He is the Son in the hypostatic union...in that He is come in the flesh as a Man.

You know how God created the world, he spoke and His word made it. Gods word produces life, that is what it does, so when Mary recieved His word, it did what Gods word does it bore life as Christ the man, And Yet God still in heaven watched His son Grow and was pleased, are you going to take that away from God, because you have already taken everything away from Jesus, as if He was nothing and God was everything.

Heb_1:5 For unto which of the angels said he at any time, Thou art my Son, this day have I begotten thee? And again, I will be to him a Father, and he shall be to me a Son?

Mat_17:5 While he yet spake, behold, a bright cloud overshadowed them: and behold a voice out of the cloud, which said, This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased; hear ye him.

But you will never understand too much study not enough Jesus.

 

[justbyfaith]

I know Jesus better because I have studied His love letter to me while He has been away on a mission.

Again, I do not deny, but confess (at the risk of having my head chopped off by Muslims) that Jesus is the Son of God.

 

[mjrhealth]

I know Jesus better because I have studied His love letter to me while He has been away on a mission.

Actually that only qualifies that you know "about Him", just like all those peopee who read about the queen and say they know her, the only way to know Christ is to experience Christ and that doesnt come from reading. like I said, too much study not enough Christ.

Joh_5:39 Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me.
Joh_5:40 And ye will not come to me, that ye might have life.

Time you stopped studying and started asking, time is short,

Jas_4:2 Ye lust, and have not: ye kill, and desire to have, and cannot obtain: ye fight and war, yet ye have not, because ye ask not.

Glad to see that you know He is the Son of God.

 

[Tong2020]

You're entirely wrong Tong, you didn't explain anything with any sort of viable understanding. The confusion lies with you. You do not have a comprehensive understanding of this principle, and you cannot get over the one verse that refers to Christ's image. Your whole doctrine on this matter seems to stem from that one verse. Like I said, it's an ontological issue, not moral. Man can sin and find redemption for his sins, in both the Old and New Testaments (oblations and repentance), this does not change his intrinsic constitution, obviously. For this matter, because animals do not have such a moral awareness, and therefore are unaccountable for what they do (innocent), they too then, according to your understanding, be considered in the image of God, Yes, the absurdity of such a notion exposes the fact that the image of God is referring to those with the ability to comprehend God, our existence, our conscience.

Where your confusion lies is right there in your post. You inject the angels and animals into the subject that concerns man. I have already gave you my argument concerning that. In your confusion, your position appears to hold the belief that fallen angels, even fallen Satan, are in the image of God. That sure is a confused mind there. I offer you a clear picture of the image of God, that is, Jesus Christ. If one would like to know how man is said to be in the "image of God", one need only to look at Jesus. But you continue to refuse to do this and seems to reject Jesus Christ on this matter. For you seem to find Him insufficient and worst is you rather keep insisting on looking at the fallen man, looking at them and say that they are all in the image of God. Well you surely will have an erroneous picture and understanding of the image of God with that. Your position necessarily denies the truth that God predestined those whom He foreknew to be conformed in the image of Jesus Christ, who is the image of God. Such truth refutes your position that all men are in the image of God, for the rest of man other than those God predestined to be conformed to the image of Jesus Christ, will remain to be not in the image of God, or at least falls short of being in the image of God.

The following passage shows that God refers to His image in those who came after Adam's 'fallen state', even within murderers.

Genesis 9:6. "Whoever sheds man's blood, By man his blood shall be shed, For in the image of God He made man.

Even David was considered a 'man after God's own heart'. Moses was a 'friend' to God, Job & Noah were considered righteous before God. All this, after the fall.

I already addressed that. Genesis 9:6 refers to the creation of man by God, that is with reference to the creation in Genesis 1 of man, the unfallen Adam. And every man born of fallen Adam bears the image of fallen Adam, who had fallen short of being in the image of God. All mankind (except Jesus) came from unclean unholy Adam. Who can bring a clean thing out of an unclean?

It is true that there were men such as David, Moses, Job, Noah, spoken of as righteous men. But that does not refute the truth that fallen man, the kind of fallen Adam, are in the image of God no longer. They still fall short of being in the image of God, that is why, there is this truth that someday they will be changed to conform to the image of God, which clearly proves that they were not in the image of God to begin with, or at least were short of being in the image of God.

Tong
R0868

 

[mjrhealth]

In your confusion, you even hold to the position that fallen angels, even fallen Satan, are in the image of God

Gen_1:26 And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness: and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth.

 

[bbyrd009]

Ethnicity is highly irrelevant.

The white robe is symbolic -- symbolic of purity.

lol ok ty JD

 

[Tong2020]

Get serious Tong, your just babbling continuously. Start showing that you have some logical understanding of what you profess. You keep deferring the obligation because you can't make sense of anything that you adhere to, but try to accuse others of being spiritually blind. You've been explained the redundancy of having three all-powerful beings in one godhead, or the idiocracy of God propitiating Himself, or the oxymoron and implausibility of a the existence of a god-man.
Quit babbling Tong, get serious and start explaining these absurdities if you can, to show that you have any discernment of God's Word, as you naively and erroneously claim.

Why, you have a problem with my simple questions there in my post #307?

And by the way, I was not babbling there DNB. For Paul was not babbling when He said:

1 Corinthians 2:14
But the natural man does not receive the things of the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him; nor can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.
-------------------------

Speaking of what you say are absurdities, according to human wisdom, here's what I can say. If we let scriptures speak the truth to us, and rely in the words of God instead of human wisdom, it can't be denied that the Christ is the Lord ~ Yahweh, the almighty God.

It had been shown to you in scriptures, the prophecy of Isaiah concerning the messenger who will prepare the way of the Lord, that is, God (Yahweh); and it had been shown to you in scriptures, the fulfillment of such prophecy in the prophet John the baptist, being the messenger, and in the Christ, Jesus, being the Lord, whose way John the baptist prepared for. But you just keep rejecting that. Not that it is not written in scriptures, but because human wisdom tells you that it is foolishness. Refute that if you must, if at all it is possible for anyone to refute the truth taught in scriptures.

It had been shown to you also in scriptures that God is the King of kings and the Lord of Lords. Is there another God like Him? Is there another King of kings other than God? Is there another Lord of lords other than God? Such titles are ultimate, meaning there could only be one King of kings and only be one Lord of Lords. And it had been shown to you in scriptures that Jesus Christ is the King of kings and Lord of Lords. And you again reject the truth that such teaches, not that it is not written in scriptures, but because human wisdom tells you that it is foolishness. Refute that if you must, if at all it is possible for anyone to refute the truth taught in scriptures.

Should I go on? Perhaps, you can first address those properly, not with Ad Hominems I hope nor with any excuses nor by saying the same things that your human wisdom tells you as absurdities. I told you truth taught in scriptures, not things taught by human wisdom.

And perhaps also, you can now also honestly answer the simple questions which you just ignored:

1. Who do you say created all things that are in heaven and that are on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or principalities or powers?
2. Who do you say is before all things?
3. In whom do you say all things consist?

Tong
R0869

 

[BARNEY BRIGHT]

The Bible clearly says that every human will sin someday:

There is no human who does not sin. (1 Kings 8:46)

But then how could the Messiah be sinless?

I would say that the spirit in the Messiah was not a human spirit but the spirit of God. The Spirit of God in the flesh, therefore John 1:1 and 14. But then one asks oneself the question, did the incarnation of the Spirit create another person separated from the father? Should one think that God has begotten a real son? That God has begotten a real son sounds illogical to me, since this would then be a second God, but if the Messiah is the Father, one would have to ask oneself why the Bible constantly separates the Son from the Father.

1 Kings 8:46 is speaking about Adams seed that was born in sin. Jesús the Son of God, he wasn't born in sin. When the scriptures said that the Holy Spirit overshadow Mary the angel Gabriel explained to Mary, “power of the Most High” overshadowed her so that what was born was holy, God’s Son. God’s holy spirit formed, as it were, a protective wall so that no imperfection or hurtful force could damage, or blemish, the developing embryo, from conception on.Luke 1:35
Jesús came as a perfect human equal to the first Adam who was a perfect sinless human when created, though he didn't remain sinless. Jesús when born was born a perfect Human being, born without sin and remained sinless even until death.

Jesus was a perfect sinless man, the exact equal of Adam before that one sinned. (1 Cor.15:45) As such, Jesus was the only human to be in a position to offer up a perfect, complete sacrifice, the type of sacrifice without any need to be repeated.

Jesús perfect human life being without spot or blemish which was offered in sacrifice is the antitypical sin offering. It is the valuable thing that accomplishes the purchase of mankind, redeeming them from inherited sin and death. (Titus 2:13, 14; Hebrew 2:9) Christ himself declared: “The Son of man came, not to be ministered to, but to minister and to give his soul a ransom in exchange for many.” (Mr.10:45) His sacrifice atoned exactly for what was forfeited by the sinner Adam, since Jesus was perfect and hence Adam’s equal prior to the first man’s sin.—1Ti. 2:5; Eph.1:7
The point is the first Adam who was created a perfect and sinless human Could have remained that way if he had progressed in love toward his father and God and because of that love he could have chosen to obey his father and God. Jesus who came as the last Adam, a perfect human man proved that the first Adam could have remained sinless if he had put his love for his father and God first like Jesus did, by obeying God's command. So Jesus proved that because God created the first Adam perfect and sinless he could have remained faithful to God and remained sinless. So although 1 kings 8:46 speaks about mankind born in sin would eventually sin that Scripture isn't speaking about when God created the 1st Adam, because Jesus has already proven that the first Adam could have been obedient to his father who is God if he had put his love for his father and God first.

 

[Tong2020]

One day when you stop studying and ask God maybe you might find out, but if Jesus is God than you have no salvation.

Is that your answer to the question: do you know who said this, "I am the First and the Last. I am He who lives, and was dead, and behold, I am alive forevermore."?

Well, ....let me give you a hint. He is the one who said "I am the Alpha and the Omega, the First and the Last,".

And if you also don't know who is the Alpha and the Omega, just say so.

Tong
R0871

 

[Joseph77]

Jesus is God. What kind of deceived man can say otherwise !? Affected by what ? demons, drugs, dementia , or just false gospel (accursed) ?

In other cases, might be a little child deceived by others, simply needing properly taught.

But when any (grown?) man steadfastly refuses to believe the Truth, refuses to be united with Jesus Who is God,

is that not outright and condemned rebellion ?

 

[DNB]

You are entitled to your own opinion as every person is.

In that part of Paul's writings, the emphasis was not only on crucifixion but definitely and more significantly on the person crucified, the one whom they were chosen and blessed to witness to, teach about, and preach, that is, the Christ. And he was not out there to speak concerning the proud, but concerning the wise who rely upon human wisdom in determining what is the truth. On the crucifixion, the emphasis is in that it is the worst mode of execution of capital punishment for heinous crimes committed by a criminal in those days, imposed by the governing Gentile authorities then, amounting not only to cruel suffering, extreme humiliation, but also the slow, painful, and certain death. On the person of him crucified, he was not somebody ordinary, not even a criminal even to the very least Gentile definition of what a criminal is, an innocent person, for so even the Gentile Pilate had found out. But the emphasis on the person of Jesus was far far more than that. I have already told you in my post about the person of Jesus, that He is the Christ, etc. etc, ~ He is God. Such truth about the person of this Jesus whom Paul preached as crucified is central to Paul's emphasis in speaking of the "message of the cross" which makes it foolishness to the wise Greeks (Gentiles). In his writing, in the phrase, "we preach Christ crucified..." is embodied both of these emphasis, that is, on the crucifixion and on the person of Jesus, rendering it nothing short of foolishness according to human wisdom.

I could understand your rejection of what I said, for you find the truth that Christ is the almighty God as foolishness. And that is no different thinking from the wise of those days, who rely upon human wisdom in determining what is the truth. But if we let scriptures speak the truth to us, and rely in the words of God instead, it can't be denied that the Christ is the Lord ~ Yahweh, the almighty God.

Ad hominems? Well, those are not the ways of the disciples and apostles of Jesus Christ in standing for the truth that they were chosen for to testify, teach, and preach, and even die for. So, why would a Christian resort to such act? Well,...

You said "...but both you, and no one else, is qualified to talk about this inane and subversive man-made doctrine." I am not talking about a man-made doctrine DNB. I am talking about what one can find and learn in scriptures.

I will repeat here what I already said, if we let scriptures speak the truth to us, and rely in the words of God instead of human wisdom, it can't be denied that the Christ is the Lord ~ Yahweh, the almighty God.

It had been shown to you in scriptures, the prophecy of Isaiah concerning the messenger who will prepare the way of the Lord, that is, God (Yahweh); and it had been shown to you in scriptures, the fulfillment of such prophecy in the prophet John the baptist, being the messenger, and in the Christ, Jesus, being the Lord, whose way John the baptist prepared for. But you just keep rejecting that. Not that it is not written in scriptures, but because human wisdom tells you that it is foolishness.

It had been shown to you also in scriptures that God is the King of kings and the Lord of Lords. Is there another God like Him? Is there another King of kings other than God? Is there another Lord of lords other than God? Such titles are ultimate, meaning there could only be one King of kings and only be one Lord of Lords. And it had been shown to you in scriptures that Jesus Christ is the King of kings and Lord of Lords. And you again reject the truth that such teaches, not that it is not written in scriptures, but because human wisdom tells you that it is foolishness.

Why is it you can believe the miracles and supernatural wonders written in scriptures, things that human wisdom could not explain but are truth ~ water turning to true wine, the Word becoming true flesh, the dead resurrecting to life, etc., etc.? How can you not continue and fully rely on God whom you profess and claim to believe, and turn again to rely on human wisdom for the truth, especially the truth about the person of Jesus Christ and God?

Finally, you said "... you make a stupid unqualified remark '...Christ the Power and Wisdom of God...'" That isn't a stupid remark from me nor did I quote that to support or justify the triune nature of God. That is coming from scriptures, unless you think that Paul is stupid. And I quoted that to refute a statement you made, as can be seen in my last paragraph in my post #314. So, another strawman of yours perhaps?

Tong
R0866

You're wrong on the meaning of the image of God, and on the meaning behind the foolishness of the Cross. The only thing that you came remotely close to being accurate, but also incriminated yourself, is affirming that it is foolish to call a man God.

 

[DNB]

I already addressed that. Genesis 9:6 refers to the creation of man by God, that is with reference to the creation in Genesis 1 of man, the unfallen Adam. And every man born of fallen Adam bears the image of fallen Adam, who had fallen short of being in the image of God. All mankind (except Jesus) came from unclean unholy Adam. Who can bring a clean thing out of an unclean

You're a horrible exegete Tong, you don't seem to understand Tota Scriptura or Hermeneutics 101 - context.
The reason man will pay for another man's life with his blood, is because man is currently created in God's image. The clause at the end has no significance, if a corrupt or fallen man, kills another corrupt or fallen man. Meaning, according to you, neither are in the image of God.
But, on the contrary, for that was the point of God expressing His justification behind the ordinance.
You can't seem to keep your foot out of your mouth Tong. It's not ad hominen Tong, it's trying to make you see how belief in such absurdities as the trinity, always reduces its adherents and proponents to unreasonable and irrational crédules.

 

[DNB]

Why, you have a problem with my simple questions there in my post #307?

And by the way, I was not babbling there DNB. For Paul was not babbling when He said:

1 Corinthians 2:14
But the natural man does not receive the things of the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him; nor can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.
-------------------------

Speaking of what you say are absurdities, according to human wisdom, here's what I can say. If we let scriptures speak the truth to us, and rely in the words of God instead of human wisdom, it can't be denied that the Christ is the Lord ~ Yahweh, the almighty God.

It had been shown to you in scriptures, the prophecy of Isaiah concerning the messenger who will prepare the way of the Lord, that is, God (Yahweh); and it had been shown to you in scriptures, the fulfillment of such prophecy in the prophet John the baptist, being the messenger, and in the Christ, Jesus, being the Lord, whose way John the baptist prepared for. But you just keep rejecting that. Not that it is not written in scriptures, but because human wisdom tells you that it is foolishness. Refute that if you must, if at all it is possible for anyone to refute the truth taught in scriptures.

It had been shown to you also in scriptures that God is the King of kings and the Lord of Lords. Is there another God like Him? Is there another King of kings other than God? Is there another Lord of lords other than God? Such titles are ultimate, meaning there could only be one King of kings and only be one Lord of Lords. And it had been shown to you in scriptures that Jesus Christ is the King of kings and Lord of Lords. And you again reject the truth that such teaches, not that it is not written in scriptures, but because human wisdom tells you that it is foolishness. Refute that if you must, if at all it is possible for anyone to refute the truth taught in scriptures.

Should I go on? Perhaps, you can first address those properly, not with Ad Hominems I hope nor with any excuses nor by saying the same things that your human wisdom tells you as absurdities. I told you truth taught in scriptures, not things taught by human wisdom.

And perhaps also, you can now also honestly answer the simple questions which you just ignored:

1. Who do you say created all things that are in heaven and that are on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or principalities or powers?
2. Who do you say is before all things?
3. In whom do you say all things consist?

Tong
R0869

You're a bad exegete Tong, your dialectics are horrible and exasperating. We've been going in circles now since we've engaged.
The trinity is absolute nonsense in regard to every facet of Christian theology. You've heard my reasons why. You have done absolutely nothing to defend or substantiate your position, but to say, 'no, it's not'. And then, quote Scripture that speaks of man's perception of God's wisdom as foolishness, and that, from the perspective of a fool. In other words, you've digresses from the point and taken passages entirely out of context, apparently because you must be unaware of the point? You are unable to divulge the wisdom behind your god-man theory.
Yes Tong, I am being disparaging intentionally, but, in order to expose an invariable fact - the doctrine of the trinity always makes fools of it's adherents, always!

 

[Joseph77]

Is there any doctrine of men that is unshakeable ?

 

[Renniks]

You're a bad exegete Tong, your dialectics are horrible and exasperating. We've been going in circles now since we've engaged.
The trinity is absolute nonsense in regard to every facet of Christian theology. You've heard my reasons why. You have done absolutely nothing to defend or substantiate your position, but to say, 'no, it's not'. And then, quote Scripture that speaks of man's perception of God's wisdom as foolishness, and that, from the perspective of a fool. In other words, you've digresses from the point and taken passages entirely out of context, apparently because you must be unaware of the point? You are unable to divulge the wisdom behind your god-man theory.
Yes Tong, I am being disparaging intentionally, but, in order to expose an invariable fact - the doctrine of the trinity always makes fools of it's adherents, always!

Lol, maybe look in the mirror? Again with the same old name calling but no scripture....

 

[justbyfaith]

Actually that only qualifies that you know "about Him", just like all those peopee who read about the queen and say they know her, the only way to know Christ is to experience Christ and that doesnt come from reading. like I said, too much study not enough Christ.

Joh_5:39 Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me.
Joh_5:40 And ye will not come to me, that ye might have life.

Time you stopped studying and started asking, time is short,

Jas_4:2 Ye lust, and have not: ye kill, and desire to have, and cannot obtain: ye fight and war, yet ye have not, because ye ask not.

Glad to see that you know He is the Son of God.

There is a difference between reading information about the queen and reading a letter sent to you directly from the queen. The latter thing is personal.

Jesus has gone away on a journey and has told His servants to "Occupy until I come."

We know Him no longer after the flesh (2 Corinthians 5:16).

He speaks to us through His word (2 Timothy 3:16-17) and His servants are called to preach His word (2 Timothy 4:2).

I have asked Jesus into my heart and if He has not come in by now, He probably never will.

Yes, Jesus is the Son of God; He is also the Father (Isaiah 9:6). There is one Lord in holy scripture (Ephesians 4:5, 1 Corinthians 8:6); and this Lord is the Father (Matthew 11:25, Luke 10:21). yet, no one can say that Jesus is the Lord except by the Holy Ghost (1 Corinthians 12:3); even the Spirit of truth. And Jesus Christ of Nazareth is the Lord (1 Corinthians 8:6).

Think about how all of these things relate to one another. There is one Lord, the Father; yet no one can say that Jesus is the Lord except by the Spirit of truth. This ought to tell you something important.

 

[Joseph77]

Jesus is not The Father.
For us, for peoples of faith, etc, in a way different from the Father the Creator,
Jesus is "our Father" ,
as Paul even was a "father" to some , as written,
but Paul was not then nor ever the Creator Elohim Father, no, and neither was Jesus ever.

 

[justbyfaith]

Jesus is not The Father.
For us, for peoples of faith, etc, in a way different from the Father the Creator,
Jesus is "our Father" ,
as Paul even was a "father" to some , as written,
but Paul was not then nor ever the Creator Elohim Father, no, and neither was Jesus ever.

I disagree with you here.

I have also given scriptural support for my pov.

 

[DNB]

Lol, maybe look in the mirror? Again with the same old name calling but no scripture....

Predominately, the point is that Scripture is not required to prove the nonsensical, implausible and utterly ridiculous. The onus is not on the rational to prove that zebras can't fly, that elephants can't swim, that the earth is not flat, nor that the Supreme Judge and Legislator must make amends for the guilty parties, nor that God can become a man and then be mocked, abused and killed by His won creation.
The obligation is on the irrationalists, mystics and credulous to prove such contradictions and absurdities.

 

[Joseph77]

Is that what's called in Scripture "wrangling over words" ?