Hiddenthings
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Every generation faces its own ‘last hour’, a call to prove everything and uphold the original Gospel as taught by the Apostles. Today, that Gospel is absent from mainstream Christendom.
How did the Trinity doctrine develop in the early church?
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Hiddenthings
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Good question - hope you are not with Pontius Pilate? And if so, are you able to accept the answer?
Jesus remained silent as he embodied truth in every way but maybe not as you perceive.
I understand, thanks. (scriptures below)
To be clear, I don't deny that Jesus (God the Son) retrospectively remembered being involved in creation.
What I am saying is that He was not yet Jesus, God the Son, when that happened.
1 Corinthians 8:6 NIV
yet for us there is but one God, the Father, from whom all things came and for whom we live;
and there is but one Lord, Jesus Christ, through whom all things came and through whom we live.
Colossians 1:15-16 NIV
The Son is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation.
16 For in him all things were created: things in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible,
whether thrones or powers or rulers or authorities;
all things have been created through him and for him.
I think "firstborn" refers to His resurrection from the dead. Firstborn from the dead.
Colossians 1:18
And he is the head of the body, the church; he is the beginning and the firstborn from among the dead, so that in everything he might have the supremacy.
Revelation 1:5
and from Jesus Christ, who is the faithful witness, the firstborn from the dead, and the ruler of the kings of the earth. To him who loves us and has freed us from our sins by his blood,
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Brakelite
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But a human was trying to steal the body of Moses and Michael was afraid to rebuke this human and asked God to do it instead?
Hiddenthings
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An eternal being who has divine nature cannot be reborn. To believe in such a paradox would be to deny the Lords plain teaching.
Luke 20:34–36, "The sons of this age marry and are given in marriage, but those who are considered worthy to attain to that age and the resurrection from the dead neither marry nor are given in marriage, for they cannot die anymore, because they are equal to angels and are sons of God, being sons of the resurrection."
The other includes Christ himself.
Hiddenthings
Well-Known Member
Clearly you can see the difficulties in the text which is why many have reasoned that ‘the body of Moses’ refers to Joshua the High Priest during the time of Ezra and Zechariah, and that ‘the devil’ represents the group of disaffected priests barred from office. It is clear that Jude is quoting Zechariah 3:2.
Have you looked into the similarities between the two texts?
Here are a question or two.
Considering the persons of the Trinity:
- Who was the God that Adam had fellowship with in the garden?
- Who was the God that told Noah to build the ark?
- Who was the God that called Abram?
- Who was the God that called Moses from the burning bush?
Are you denying that Jesus was bodily resurrected from the dead? (yikes)
Colossians 1:18
And he is the head of the body, the church; he is the beginning and the firstborn from among the dead, so that in everything he might have the supremacy.
Revelation 1:5
and from Jesus Christ, who is the faithful witness, the firstborn from the dead, and the ruler of the kings of the earth. To him who loves us and has freed us from our sins by his blood,
Grailhunter
Well-Known Member
Y@Lambano
Looking for my post is taking too long.
Here is the source -which is better anyway since I didn't post all of it.
Nine Early Church Fathers Who Taught Jesus Is God
For those who think Emperor Constantine invented the deity of Christ, here are thirty-six quotations from nine different church fathers that predate the Council of Nicea.www.str.org
Well you are a perfect example that a false belief can twist the mind and harm understanding. They act like filters....you read a scripture and the filter changes the meaning so you do not understand the true meaning of the scripture.
Yeshua and the Apostles would never say that He was the only God. But yes it can be said that Yeshua is the God of Christianity.....get it the religion named after Him. And yes Yahweh and Yeshua are one and Yeshua explained the meaning of that one and we are included in that one.
The power of false beliefs.....especially old one. In college we covered the power of false beliefs and the harm they can cause understanding. And they come in many forms......but they are beliefs and words imposed on scriptures. For example most believe that the ten summaries in chapter 20 of exodus are the Ten Commandments and were written on the two tablets of the testimony. When the ten laws Yahweh called commandments are in chapter 34 of Exodus. There He tells Moses to write them on the tablets of the testimony. And the scripture says Moses wrote them on the tablets, the Ten Commandments. The ten laws in chapter 20 are summaries of the Mosaic Law.
Then you have the doctrine of Original Sin were babies go to Hell. Which was one of the reasons that the Catholic Church was motivated to baptize infants. Then you have theological words like fornication that produce false beliefs. The word Trinity is great but people attached a false belief to it. Some believe the devil and Hell was in the Old Testament and most of that was caused by changing the scriptures through the translational process.....like using the word Hades which is Greek word stuck in a Hebrew text when Hades is a Greek god.
I have been involved with trying to rescue Jehovah Witness victims and boy you see the power of false beliefs and how it can put them into a different reality. They have an alternate belief for a lot of truths. Their religion is drilled into their heads. I have seen for myself.
I am just glad that whether a person believes in three Gods or the three in one it is not a matter of salvation.
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Hiddenthings
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No, in believing Jesus pre-existed you are denying he was raised eternal. The Apostles believed Jesus was raised and given immortality (Divine Nature)
Exactly - you posted a verse which supports he could not have pre-existed if he was the firstborn i.e first to be made eternal!
You did it again.
Christians cannot explain how a pre-existing Divine Being could be granted immortality if he already possesses it. Believing such claims renders his death meaningless and his ressurection a non-event!
Brakelite
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The cherubim that stood over the ark of the covenant represented real high ranking angels that had a specific task, yes. The entire sanctuary was a miniature copy of the true sanctuary in heaven. The ark was a miniature rendition of the throne of God, hence two cherubim guarding it and the presence of the Almighty over the mercy seat. It is an outlandish departure from sound exegesis to claim the ark the cherubim were watching over was Israel. You are getting more and more desperate with every exposure of your errors.
Using human reasoning rather than allowing the Bible to interpret itself, and trusting in that interpretation, has been the downfall of many, and why there are so many disparate denominations throughout Christendom.
Yes I am familiar with those 2 texts. And there's no reason, other than preconceived ideas, to suppose they aren't saying precisely what is printed. Why do you believe God is being so obtuse as to create symbols and metaphors unnecessarily? The text says the body of Moses. Michael was present to resurrect Moses and take him to glory, but Satan was attempting to claim most as his own because of his sin. Like Joshua the high priest, most was forgiven and covered by the righteousness of Christ. The "Lord rebuke thee", was as expression of humility and deferment to the power and authority of God.
As for the contention that angels could not sin, and only humans can sin, is pure conjecture refuted throughout Scripture with the countless references to demons and spirits of devils in this present world. And I might add, to the countless testimonies of many who have interacted with these entities and know of a surety that what they were dealing with were supernatural and not human.
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Brakelite
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Brakelite
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So you deny that the Father created all things through the Son. So many scriptures that directly contradict such a proposal. But then, it seems we must expect that with Christadelphians.
The truth has endured.
Apostasy has also endured.
Because God has directed a written account to be written and everything to be explained.
But because, just as scriptures explained, people love lies over the truth...the truth of scriptures are often unknown. Hermeneutics is a lost art. We have tons of books and commentaries but so little truth. (Despite the obvious) Sensationalism takes priority over solid explanations.
The whole Charismatic movement, Saddleback copycats, Prayer of Jabez, and etc (winds of doctrine) are proof of sensationalism. More can be said on this.
The whole inclusion of Homisexuals and their perversion into the church, even as clergy, is obvious apostasy....but it's very common today.
However....
The true hermeneutics process has survived. It's not easy or for everyone. But some go through it.
Brakelite
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And pre-existing does not of necessity mean eternal in the past. We cannot expect eternity in the past to be without "past present and future". It is altogether scripturally reasonable to understand the Soon as having been brought forth of the Father, not created because the Son came out from the Father's own substance, and having received the same substance and life from the Father. When He came to this world and was presented before men as one of their own, the Son was no longer in the form of God, but retained the character and righteousness of God, yet fully human. In order to become human and live a life we could exemplify, He had to set aside all His divine preogatives, and be tempted in all respects as we are tempted, yet without sin. The Son lived His life as human as an example to us that by faith, we also can overcome this world.
The Son was eternal in as much a He was always in union with the Father, but at some time in eternity past was begotten and started an independent existence as a separate personality. We write off the true meaning of Christ begottenness and lose the real proof of His divinity in the process. Like Father like Son.
Hiddenthings
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I read this hoping you would provide evidence which clearly revealed your fallen angel belief but once again I am disappointed.
If you believe the wages of sin is death, and that our ‘flesh and blood’ nature is capable of producing sin, then yes, angels cannot sin. It is impossible for them, and the Divine decree would apply to them as well. However, their nature is incorruptible, and they cannot die.
Luke 20:34–36 The sons of this age marry and are given in marriage, but those who are considered worthy to attain to that age and the resurrection from the dead neither marry nor are given in marriage, for they cannot die anymore, because they are equal to angels and are sons of God, being sons of the resurrection.
Their ability to sin is removed when their nature is changed, otherwise your reward is no reward at all if you still have capacity to sin.
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Brakelite
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I'm not convinced that is correct. He came as a baby. A real, uneducated, uninformed child, who has to learn from scratch the same things we do. It was from Scripture, from studying prophecy, that He learned His true identity, and later confirmed by the Father at the baptism. Jesus was a student of Scripture, hence was able at a very young age to confound even the elders of Israel. From His dedication as a baby in the temple, his parents from that time were made acutely aware of their responsibility toward their child and taught him accordingly.
Hiddenthings
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My wordy word!
So now you are teaching that your pre-existent Christ was somehow less than the angels in nature?
You are making this up as you go along.
Your close Brakelite halfway between the Trinity and the Truth.
Grailhunter
Well-Known Member
I want to make a few things clear. The Trinity is defined in different ways. The term Trinity came out as tri-unity not triune. The term was coined early in Christian history but did not have the three in one aspect until the Catholic Church forced the three in one definition onto Christianity in the 4th century under penalty of death. And then most of the Protestants adopted the belief during the reformation.
But still that does not define the whole topic. I defend what the scriptures say and what the early Church believed and the progressing Christian history. There is good chance that very few people even thought about the three in one concept until the Catholic Church demanded it.
The history of it included people that wanted the scripures to validate the three in one belief so much that they used the translation process to change what the scriptures said. It is called The Johannine Comma Addition and involves 1st John 5:7-8. You can look it up yourselves, it is historical.
Then there is the other side of the coin….The scriptures give us a lot information but they cannot define exactly what it is to be a God or how they relate. The Law of Physics of Heaven so to speak. There are three real Gods, Yahweh, Yeshua, and the Holy Spirit. Do they and can they sit on thrones? Perfect minds….would think exactly a like. Yeshua prayed to Yahweh in the Garden and said that Yahweh was His God. But do they normally communicate with telepathy? Or do they speak to each other in Heaven? And are they connected some how? Can we comprehend that connection?
My defense of the scriptures and Christian history is not saying that there cannot be a connection, it just not defined in the scriptures. In fact the three in one beliefs does not fit with the scriptures….And Christ’s explanation of it includes us as part of the one. But as it is the three in one formula skews the meaning of over a hundred scriptures, like the My Father scriptures and the My Father in Heaven scriptures…. God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son….This is my Son of whom I am well pleased….the Father is greater than I ….Yeshua ascends to the Father….. Yeshua saying Yahweh is His God….Yeshua does not do His will but the will of Yahweh….Yeshua did not know when the end of time was but Yahweh did…. Yeshua did not have the authority to grant John and James mother’s request that her sons sit on each side of Him. So the three in one belief twists the meaning of these scripture….as if Yeshua is His own Father and He is praying and referring to Himself and pleased with Himself.
So I am not saying there is not a connection between the three but not to the point that they are not individuals. A lot of people like the three in one belief because is seems like a miracle.....but it just is not true. The three Gods are a miracle enough.
The term Godhead is a much more accurate term.
But still that does not define the whole topic. I defend what the scriptures say and what the early Church believed and the progressing Christian history. There is good chance that very few people even thought about the three in one concept until the Catholic Church demanded it.
The history of it included people that wanted the scripures to validate the three in one belief so much that they used the translation process to change what the scriptures said. It is called The Johannine Comma Addition and involves 1st John 5:7-8. You can look it up yourselves, it is historical.
Then there is the other side of the coin….The scriptures give us a lot information but they cannot define exactly what it is to be a God or how they relate. The Law of Physics of Heaven so to speak. There are three real Gods, Yahweh, Yeshua, and the Holy Spirit. Do they and can they sit on thrones? Perfect minds….would think exactly a like. Yeshua prayed to Yahweh in the Garden and said that Yahweh was His God. But do they normally communicate with telepathy? Or do they speak to each other in Heaven? And are they connected some how? Can we comprehend that connection?
My defense of the scriptures and Christian history is not saying that there cannot be a connection, it just not defined in the scriptures. In fact the three in one beliefs does not fit with the scriptures….And Christ’s explanation of it includes us as part of the one. But as it is the three in one formula skews the meaning of over a hundred scriptures, like the My Father scriptures and the My Father in Heaven scriptures…. God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son….This is my Son of whom I am well pleased….the Father is greater than I ….Yeshua ascends to the Father….. Yeshua saying Yahweh is His God….Yeshua does not do His will but the will of Yahweh….Yeshua did not know when the end of time was but Yahweh did…. Yeshua did not have the authority to grant John and James mother’s request that her sons sit on each side of Him. So the three in one belief twists the meaning of these scripture….as if Yeshua is His own Father and He is praying and referring to Himself and pleased with Himself.
So I am not saying there is not a connection between the three but not to the point that they are not individuals. A lot of people like the three in one belief because is seems like a miracle.....but it just is not true. The three Gods are a miracle enough.
The term Godhead is a much more accurate term.
From the CYB Statement of Faith: "We believe that God is the Creator, Sustainer, and Ruler of the universe. We attest that God has eternally existed in three persons: the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit. These three are co-equal and are one God. (Genesis 1:1, 26-27, Genesis 3:22, Deuteronomy 6:4, Psalm 90:2, John 1:1, John 10:30, Romans 3:30, II Corinthians 13:14, I Peter 1:2)"
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