How do you respond to "Christians are hypocrites"?

[justbyfaith]

JBF, you can play all the word games you wish, but the fact is that anywhere else in the Bible, "soon" is "soon." Many people simply try to put a twist on that word in this particular and deliberately isolated instance so that it will hopefully fit their preconceived notion.

So the Bible does not mean what it says? This is not the view of someone who is born again of the Holy Spirit.

btw, what verse are you referring to containing the word "soon"?

You arrogantly questioned if I believed God.

Really? because from our first contact, you came off as highly arrogant from my perspective. You even look arrogant in your picture.

 

[Willie T]

So the Bible does not mean what it says? This is not the view of someone who is born again of the Holy Spirit.
btw, what verse are you referring to containing the word "soon"?
Really? because from our first contact, you came off as highly arrogant from my perspective. You even look arrogant in your picture.

I just had to "quote" that so you couldn't slink back later and remove it. LOL
BTW, here is another time John used that idea of "soon." Did he mean sometime 2,000+ years from then? 3 John 1:14
(The exact word, "soon" is even used in some translations.)

 

[quietthinker]

However, Jesus was God, and sinless by nature.

The scripture says he came 'in the likeness of sinful flesh' and 'tempted in all points as us' With God's Spirit by our sides and staying connected to the vine (which is how Jesus operated) we can overcome just as he did....and besides, it is expected of God that we live functional lives (without sin)

To excuse sin is to justify it......it suits the carnal nature....but we have a helper available if we avail ourselves of him.

 

[justbyfaith]

BTW, here is another time John used that idea of "soon." Did he mean sometime 2,000+ years from then? 3 John 1:14

Obviously not, in its historical context.

The scripture says he came 'in the likeness of sinful flesh' and 'tempted in all points as us' With God's Spirit by our sides and staying connected to the vine (which is how Jesus operated) we can overcome just as he did....and besides, it is expected of God that we live functional lives (without sin)

To excuse sin is to justify it......it suits the carnal nature....but we have a helper available if we avail ourselves of him.

Key words being "in the likeness of" iow, not in sinful flesh, but, in the likeness of sinful flesh.

 

[justbyfaith]

deleted: reason: prepeat of next post.

 

[justbyfaith]

I just had to "quote" that so you couldn't slink back later and remove it. LOL

I am certainly not ashamed of saying it.

For you called me arrogant first:

You arrogantly questioned if I believed God. "Yes", I do. He said He was showing John the coming into the world — with the destruction of Jerusalem and the Jewish worship system — of God's new system in Christ. But many hope to make that literal promise to the people of those seven churches into a hocus-pocus crystal ball.

Just thought I would quote that so you won't slink back later and remove it.

Answering you in such a way that provides for you not becoming wise in your own eyes.

 

[quietthinker]

If I read in my Bible that Jesus is coming soon today and He comes tomorrow then He did indeed come soon from my perspective...God certainly wasn't lying to me.

For the person who lived 2,00 years ago He came for them the moment that they took their last breath. Still "soon". God wasn't lying to them either.

Time is relative to the viewer. An ant may see a year as a long time. We humans might see a hundred years as a long time. The scripture is God's revelation of his rescue plan from death. He uses every means available to get the message through to us, ie types, symbols, history, personal experiences etc etc.

The problem of diminishment is older than our earths history/time. It began in heaven with Lucifers rebellion.....sooooo, the TIME frame is that of God's.
When the scripture states the devil knows that his time is short or Jesus is coming soon, the reference to time is measured by God's. That's why it says a day with God is as a thousand years and a thousand years as one day. It is describing Gods 'time'

For us here on Earth we are given markers or waypoints to understand OUR place in time. This is one of the purposes of prophecy.
God has not left us in a nebulous pool where we have no reference points in regards to HIS timing. Jesus uses illustrations like, 'when you see the fig tree beginning to bud you know that the summer is near'.

We can know the closeness of his return (the climax of human history as we know it) by reading the signs of the times. We are encouraged to do this so that we are not in the dark.

The question is, can we read the signs of the times as they are meant to be read? If we err, we miss out....if we are on target we have hope and can dispel the confusion around us.

 

[quietthinker]

Key words being "in the likeness of" iow, not in sinful flesh, but, in the likeness of sinful flesh.

Be careful not to play with the intended meaning. The context of the rest of scripture qualifies the meaning.
Ultimately, one view excuses our weakness and thereby justifies it (just what our carnal nature and the devil wants). The other view gives us hope to reach for the higher option. It provides an escape from the self defeating self accusations.

 

[justbyfaith]

Be careful not to play with the intended meaning. The context of the rest of scripture qualifies the meaning.
Ultimately, one view excuses our weakness and thereby justifies it (just what our carnal nature and the devil wants). The other view gives us hope to reach for the higher option. It provides an escape from the self defeating self accusations.

One view may indeed excuse weakness and the other may indeed give hope to reach for a higher option.

This would give us an emotional reason to want to believe one view over and above the other (if we desire to have victory over sin); however, having an emotional reason to believe something is not reason enough to believe in it; I want to believe in something because it is true.

There are four scripture passages that I am aware of that speak of Jesus' sinless nature (2 Corinthians 5:21, Hebrews 4:15, 1 Peter 2:22, and 1 John 3:5).

 

[justbyfaith]

Time is relative to the viewer. An ant may see a year as a long time. We humans might see a hundred years as a long time. The scripture is God's revelation of his rescue plan from death. He uses every means available to get the message through to us, ie types, symbols, history, personal experiences etc etc.

The problem of diminishment is older than our earths history/time. It began in heaven with Lucifers rebellion.....sooooo, the TIME frame is that of God's.
When the scripture states the devil knows that his time is short or Jesus is coming soon, the reference to time is measured by God's. That's why it says a day with God is as a thousand years and a thousand years as one day. It is describing Gods 'time'

For us here on Earth we are given markers or waypoints to understand OUR place in time. This is one of the purposes of prophecy.
God has not left us in a nebulous pool where we have no reference points in regards to HIS timing. Jesus uses illustrations like, 'when you see the fig tree beginning to bud you know that the summer is near'.

We can know the closeness of his return (the climax of human history as we know it) by reading the signs of the times. We are encouraged to do this so that we are not in the dark.

The question is, can we read the signs of the times as they are meant to be read? If we err, we miss out....if we are on target we have hope and can dispel the confusion around us.

Rom 9:28, For he will finish the work, and cut it short in righteousness: because a short work will the Lord make upon the earth.

 

[quietthinker]

One view may indeed excuse weakness and the other may indeed give hope to reach for a higher option.

This would give us an emotional reason to want to believe one view over and above the other (if we desire to have victory over sin); however, having an emotional reason to believe something is not reason enough to believe in it; I want to believe in something because it is true.

There are four scripture passages that I am aware of that speak of Jesus' sinless nature (2 Corinthians 5:21, Hebrews 4:15, 1 Peter 2:22, and 1 John 3:5).

Yes, Jesus was sinless yet he has the inheritance of Adam after he sinned, of Abraham, of David etc.....his genealogy at the start of Matthew is there for all to see.
There is no need to interpret his sinlessness because he was conceived by the Spirit saying he had an advantage that we don't, that would make him out of reach for us unless of course you have had a new birth. A new birth gives the same spirit as Jesus has. Without a new birth you're paddling against a current far too formidable.

No my friend, he got tempted by the lusts of the flesh far more than we ever have, you know, those attractions that stressed him when he hadn't eaten in the desert for six weeks were so debilitating he had angels minister to him afterwards. And have you ever thought about him being tempted by sex? you better believe that the devil didn't overlook that one in his arsenal and the drops of blood that he sweated in Gethsemane as he wrestled with choices but he overcame because he trusted in his Father and he calls for us to do the same. Repeatedly he tells us in Revelation 'he who overcomes will sit with me on my throne just as I overcame am seated on my Fathers throne.

God cannot be tempted the scripture tells us. If Jesus had not lowered himself taking on our fallen nature he would have shrugged off those temptations, nay, they would not even have been temptations.

He tells us what the standard is...be perfect as my Father in Heaven is perfect. Yes, no sin. He tells the rich young ruler, keep the commandments when he was asked how the inherit eternal life. How many of them? all of them. The message is the same from the prophets and the apostles. Do we think that Elijah got to Heaven in a chariot by excusing sin because he had a fallen nature?

Now, don't confuse our fallen nature with the idea that we can not stop sining. If that were the case, all the exhortations and encouragements to put sin behind us would be useless

We are to breath the atmosphere of heaven here so that our witness is exemplary.

Of course there will always be those who confuse obeying God with working our way to heaven. I would say they have a glitch in their comprehension program. And why do they have that glitch? quiet simply because they love their sins and don't want to give then up.
One can talk of Jesus piously just like the Jews spoke of God piously but that does not qualify for entry into the Kingdom of Heaven. Our works reflect our faith....that is the litmus test.

 

[Enoch111]

Yes, Jesus was sinless yet he has the inheritance of Adam after he sinned, of Abraham, of David etc.....his genealogy at the start of Matthew is there for all to see.

The genealogy of Christ is not there to tell us that He inherited the sin nature from Adam (like the rest of humanity). It is there to tell us that His right to be King of Israel (who would be born in Bethlehem) was based on His descent from David and Judah, going all the way back to Abraham.

The reason that Christ was supernaturally conceived of a virgin was to ensure the the taint of the sin nature was absent from Christ's holy soul. And that is precisely why God could make His soul and offering for our sins.

Yet it pleased the LORD to bruise him; he hath put him to grief: when thou shalt make his soul an offering for sin, he shall see his seed, he shall prolong his days, and the pleasure of the LORD shall prosper in his hand. (Isa 53:10)

 

[justbyfaith]

Actually, the ancestry given in Matthew is not Jesus' real ancestry...it is only the family line of his stepfather Joseph.

There was a curse on the line of Jeconiah...which, if there was no virgin birth, would have excluded Jesus from being the Messiah.

 

[justbyfaith]

In my flesh there dwells no good thing...the same cannot be said of Jesus...for He was without sin.

His temptations of the flesh were not temptations to do evil...for God cannot be tempted with evil...rather, satan tempted Jesus with things that are good, that would have ultimately turned out to be independence from God...such as when he used Jesus' appetite for food and his instinct for survival to tell him to turn the stones into bread apart from the Father's sanctioning.

Jesus' desire to take back the kingdom from satan, the devil also used to tempt Him to worship him, taking the shortcut and circumventing the Cross.

And Jesus' desire to show Himself to be who He really is, the devil used to tempt Him to jump from the pinnacle of the temple; and if He had done so He would have been tempting His Father.

But none of these things have to do with a sin nature in Christ...all of these things were temptations based on Christ's godly desires to accomplish His mission. A man is tempted when he is drawn away of his own desires and enticed...for those human beings of us who are not Christ, these desires are based on a flesh that has sin dwelling therein. For Christ, the devil had to capitalize on desires that were not sinful, but which, if He had indulged in them, He would have had a similar fall as Adam, and would have never been our Messiah.

However, there was something in Christ that meant that He simply could not sin (1 John 3:9,1 John 5:18)...it was impossible that Christ could have given in to the temptations presented to Him, though the temptations were real, being based on real desire in the heart of Christ.

 

[Dave L]

Actually, the ancestry given in Matthew is not Jesus' real ancestry...it is only the family line of his stepfather Joseph.

There was a curse on the line of Jeconiah...which, if there was no virgin birth, would have excluded Jesus from being the Messiah.

Jeconiah is in Mary's lineage too.

 

[justbyfaith]

Jeconiah is in Mary's lineage too.

Show that through a verse in Luke 4.

 

[Dave L]

Show that through a verse in Luke 4.

You need to study. It's there if you know what to look for.

 

[quietthinker]

The genealogy of Christ is not there to tell us that He inherited the sin nature from Adam (like the rest of humanity). It is there to tell us that His right to be King of Israel (who would be born in Bethlehem) was based on His descent from David and Judah, going all the way back to Abraham.

The reason that Christ was supernaturally conceived of a virgin was to ensure the the taint of the sin nature was absent from Christ's holy soul. And that is precisely why God could make His soul and offering for our sins.

Yet it pleased the LORD to bruise him; he hath put him to grief: when thou shalt make his soul an offering for sin, he shall see his seed, he shall prolong his days, and the pleasure of the LORD shall prosper in his hand. (Isa 53:10)

The genealogy of Jesus is there to tell us what it tells us and to limit it so it fits in with our preconceptions.
Jesus preexisted since eternity. His conception in the womb of a woman was for the purpose of God's vindication and our salvation. He chose to take on the nature of the people he was to save so that in all points he could identify.

When God disrobed he didn't do it in half measures by retaining the ability to have an advantage over us in any form.

 

[marks]

How do you demonstrate to acquaintances that Christians aren't all hypocrites?

By loving them with a true love. I think they have to see it. Also, Jesus said that by His disciples' love for each other the world would know that Jesus sent them.

In Christ,
Mark

 

[marks]

I'm trying to find ways to not be defensive, but to redirect the conversation to make it constructive and to make a compelling case for Christ.

Perhaps make it personal.

Do you think I'm a hypocrit?

Hypotheticals and stereotypes aren't real. I'm not sure people even realize what they mean when they say Christians are hypocrits. To the extent that the old man still acts out, yes, we are hypocrits.

I don't mind admitting to being hypocritical. I judge others in ways I don't want to be judged, for instance.

But . . . the fact that not all have made it to the finish line yet does not mean the race is unimportant.

The fact that we CAN BE hypocrits points to the fact that there is the old, and there is the new. If we were only the old, then we would true to ourselves as the unregenerate are.

And not to mention, Christians aren't the only hypocrits. Many people are in many different ways. Maybe everyone is.

But again, what I've found, is that those who say such things only say them because they already know they don't want to believe and obey the Gospel.

Much love!
Mark