Wrangler
Well-Known Member
Non sequitor. No one suggested we do not participate in Christ’s work. You cannot side step the fact Jesus never taught to pray to people.
How does an adult become a Catholic?
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Non sequitor. No one suggested we do not participate in Christ’s work. You cannot side step the fact Jesus never taught to pray to people.
Wrangler
Well-Known Member
It is the only way he said to pray. Isn’t God a jealous God?
You are anti-Christ to go against how Jesus said to pray, looking for some linguistic technicality to support your doctrine.
Wrangler
Well-Known Member
Resorting to personal attacks show you have lost the argument.
Who is the champion in the cloud is irrelevant to the point that Jesus taught us to pray to God, in heaven, not people.
We don’t pray to people
But thru saints to God, only Can answer prayer, it’s Christ’s merits and His Glory
angels are ministering spirits
Lk 1 God sent an angel
It’s a two way street
But thru saints to God, only Can answer prayer, it’s Christ’s merits and His Glory
angels are ministering spirits
Lk 1 God sent an angel
It’s a two way street
Wrangler
Well-Known Member
We don’t pray to people but to God thru His saints
to God thru Jesus thru the HS thru the saints
fundamentalism is spiritual blindness and worse that teaching Shakespeare to barn yard animals!
to God thru Jesus thru the HS thru the saints
fundamentalism is spiritual blindness and worse that teaching Shakespeare to barn yard animals!
Wrangler
Well-Known Member
The royal "we" eh? You do know must denominations are not part of this 'we', right?
What verse in Scripture says this again?
2 Corinthians 5:19
To wit, that God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto himself, not imputing their trespasses unto them; and hath committed unto us the word of reconciliation.
Wrangler
Well-Known Member
Illuminator
Well-Known Member
It was an attack on your "type of remark", not you as a person. Quoting half my sentences is a dishonest ploy that most people can see through. I've answered your distortions in detail, you just don't like my answers.
Are you saying Hebrews 12:1 is wrong? 4 Protestant reference manuals makes it VERY RELEVANT! Neatly summarized on one page! Do you have a verse that says the saints in heaven are deaf. dumb and blind to the affairs of the earth??? Better still, provide a verse where Jesus explicitly forbids us to pray to/for each other. We aren't picky whether or not they have a pulse.
Jesus and Peter prayed to dead people when they rose them. The rich man prayed to dead Abraham to intercede for his brothers. Jesus spoke with long dead Moses and Elijah. Peter "prayed to" a dead Tabitha. There is no "Berlin Wall" separating the communion of saints heaven from earth. That's your tradition and it's not in scripture.
Eph. 3:14-15- we are all one family in heaven and on earth, united together, as children of the Father, through Jesus Christ. Our brothers and sisters who have gone to heaven before us are not a different family. We are one and the same family. This is why, in the Apostles Creed, we profess a belief in the “communion of saints.” There cannot be a “communion” if there is no union. Loving beings, whether on earth or in heaven, are concerned for other beings, and this concern is reflected spiritually through prayers for one another.
Most denominations question whether or not anti-trinitarians are part of "we" in the first place. Catholics, Orthodox and some Anglicans accept the doctrine of intercession. The reformers cancelled it out of political expedience.
No, it cites awareness of the cloud of witnesses that is compatible with the notion of prayers to saints. It was a common practice, not a legalism. There is no verse that says all authentic practices must be proof-texted to be valid, that's another one of your man made traditions.
Matt. 17:1-3; Mark 9:4; Luke 9:30-31 – deceased Moses and Elijah appear at the Transfiguration to converse with Jesus in the presence of Peter, James and John (these may be the two “witnesses” John refers to in Rev. 11:3). Nothing in Scripture ever suggests that God abhors or cuts off communication between the living in heaven and the living on earth. To the contrary, God encourages communication within the communion of saints. Moses and Elijah’s appearance on earth also teach us that the saints in heaven have capabilities that far surpass our limitations on earth.
Matt. 26:53 – Jesus says He can call upon the assistance of twelve legions of angels. If Jesus said He could ask for the assistance of angel saints, then so can we, who are called to imitate Jesus in word and in deed. And, in Matt. 22:30, Jesus says we will be “like angels in heaven.” This means human saints (like the angel saints) can be called upon to assist people on earth. God allows and encourages this interaction between his family members.
Matt. 27:47,49; Mark 15:35-36 – the people believe that Jesus calls on Elijah for his intercession, and waits to see if Elijah would come to save Jesus on the cross.
Matt. 27:52-53 – at Jesus’ passion, many saints were raised and went into the city to appear and presumably interact with the people, just as Jesus did after His resurrection.
Mark 11:24 – Jesus says that whatever we ask in prayer, we will receive it. It is Jesus, and also we through Jesus, who mediate.
John 2:3 – Jesus knew the wine was gone, but invites and responds to Mary’s intercession. God desires our lesser mediation and responds to it because He is a living and loving God.
John 2:5 – Mary intercedes on behalf of those at the wedding feast and tells them to do whatever Jesus tells them. Because Mary is our perfect model of faith, we too intercede on behalf of our brothers and sisters.
John 2:11 – in fact, it was Mary’s intercession that started Jesus’ ministry. His hour had not yet come, yet Jesus responds to Mary’s intercession. Even though He could do it all by Himself, God wants to work with His children.
read more here
Wrangler
Well-Known Member
Strawman/False Alternative. Hebrews 12:1 is right AND nowhere in the Bible does it say to pray to other human beings.
It's so funny how traditionalists invoke verse after verse having NOTHING to do with the doctrine they are trying to support.
So since we stand surrounded by all those who have gone before, an enormous cloud of witnesses, let us drop every extra weight, every sin that clings to us and slackens our pace, and let us run with endurance the long race set before us.
Hebrews 12:1 (Voice)
Welp, I am happy that my question has been answered, I think I should now include another question in this thread.
How does a Catholic become a Priest?
@Illuminator @BreadOfLife @Marymog @Philip James @theefaith @Mungo
How does a Catholic become a Priest?
@Illuminator @BreadOfLife @Marymog @Philip James @theefaith @Mungo
Illuminator
Well-Known Member
But you give no plausible alternative, you just complain.
from post #119
So our four non-Catholic language references all confirm that the element of “spectatorship,” which lends itself to the Catholic notion of communion of saints, where saints in heaven are aware of, and observe events on earth, is present in Hebrews 12:1, and cannot be ruled out by any means, on the basis of a doctrinal bias.
Such a common authentic practice does not have to be proof texted. It was/is a practice well in place before the canon of Scripture, a practice is not a contextual legalism.
You can lead a horse to water but you can't make him drink.
“We believe in the communion of all the faithful of Christ, those who are pilgrims on earth, the dead who are being purified, and the blessed in heaven, all together forming one Church; and we believe that in this communion, the merciful love of God and his saints is always [attentive] to our prayers.”
—Pope Paul VIIt's understood in Catholic spirituality and theology that any of us can pray to God at any time. The Bible emphasizes relationship to God, as sons and daughters to a Father. That said, there is also the practice of praying for each other. Our Protestant brethren in Christ (who generally reject intercession of the saints) accept the notion of “getting a holy man [or the pastor, etc.] to pray for you.”
Hence, a person would, for example, ask Billy Graham to pray for them, because it is thought that somehow his prayer might have more effect. This intuition is actually based on explicit biblical testimony:
James 5:14-18
Note here that the Bible itself recommends asking someone else to pray: “the elders” of the Church, who, like other Church leaders (1 Tim 3:1-13; Titus 1:7), are supposed to be of exemplary character, and “worthy of double honor” (1 Tim 5:17). They have more power, due to their ordination.
To nail down his point, St. James cites the example of the prophet Elijah. When he prayed, it didn't rain for three-and-a-half years. James says this was the case because (here is the principle he wishes to convey): “The prayer of a righteous man has great power in its effects.” We see the same dynamic in the following passage:
1 Kings 13:6
This is the biblical rationale for asking others, of more spiritual stature in the kingdom, or holier (or, best of all, both!) to pray for us. But that is not yet the same as asking a (dead) saint to pray for us. How does one arrive at that conclusion? It takes a little more work, but it is possible to ground it, too, in Scripture.
In Revelation 5:8, the “twenty-four elders” (usually regarded by commentators as dead human beings) “fell down before the Lamb . . . with golden bowls full of incense, which are the prayers of the saints.” They appear to have other people's prayers, to present to God. So the obvious question is: what are they doing with them? Why does Revelation present dead saints presenting the prayers of other saints to God?
If they have them, it stands to reason as a rather straightforward deduction, that they heard the initial prayers as well, or at least were granted knowledge of them in some fashion: ultimately through the power of God. Revelation 8:3-4 is even more explicit. Rather than equating incense and prayers, it actually distinguishes between them, and presents the scenario that the prayers and incense are presented together:
And another angel came and stood at the altar with a golden censer; and he was given much incense to mingle with the prayers of all the saints upon the golden altar before the throne; [4] and the smoke of the incense rose with the prayers of the saints from the hand of the angel before God.
It seems clear that they have heard the prayers of men, and are involved as intercessors. Angels are extremely intelligent beings. We know that they rejoice when a sinner repents. They have knowledge in ways that we do not; above our comprehension.
This is biblical proof that dead saints and angels both somehow know about our prayers and present them to God. They are acting as intercessors and intermediaries. How do they hear our prayers? God gives them the power to do so because they are in heaven and therefore, outside of time. They are aware of earthly events. We know that from Hebrews 12:1 (“we are surrounded by so great a cloud of witnesses”) and from Revelation 6:9-10, where dead saints are praying for those on the earth.
We also know of several incidents where dead men (even some from heaven) interact with those on earth: the Transfiguration (Mt 17:1-3 / Mk 9:4 / Lk 9:30-31), the Two Witnesses of Revelation 11:3-13, the prophet Samuel (not just a demon impersonating him: 1 Sam 28:7-20), and “many bodies of the saints” that came out of their graves after Jesus' Resurrection and went into Jerusalem, appearing to many (Mt 27:50-53). In the deuterocanonical book of 2 Maccabees (15:13-16) the prophet Jeremiah returns to earth.
This is our entire rationale for asking saints to pray to God for us: all in perfect harmony with the Bible:
1) Holy men and women's prayers have great power.
2) Dead saints are perfected in holiness and are still part of the Body of Christ.
3) The Blessed Virgin Mary in particular is exceptionally holy (Immaculate Conception) and as the Mother of God, her prayers have more power and effect than that of any other creature: all by God's grace.
4) We know that they are aware (or are made aware) of earthly events.
5) We know that they exercise much charity and pray for us.
Why Would Anyone Pray to Saints Rather Than to God?| National Catholic Register (ncregister.com)
Illuminator
Well-Known Member
I think the same thing happens when one choses to become a Catholic: they have to be called by God. If a person thinks they have a vocation, a discernment process is initiated. Every diocese has a vocations director. Candidates get a referral from their pastor, followed by one or more interviews, and/or a "Come and See" retreat
Come & See Vocation Promotion Program | Vocation Promotion
https://vocations.ca
Wrangler
Well-Known Member
More personal attacks cause you lost the argument. Your position is utterly absurd. Doing what Jesus said - pray to God in heaven - IS the plausible alternative. No complaints.
Wrangler
Well-Known Member
See below.
I believe in legal circles this linguistic technicality is called a pregnant participle. It goes like this. Suppose you take me to court claiming I owe you $17.76. My response is to deny that I owe you $17.76. As the court proceeding unfolds, it is shown that you can only prove that I owe you $17.72. Therefore, your complaint is dismissed on the grounds that I do not owe you what you claimed.
This is why lawyers typically write the complaint using the exact dollar amount only as a reference, e.g., Wrangler owes Mungo for services rendered for approximately 3 hours work on or about the last week in June at the agreed upon wage, this would amount to approximately $17.76. theefaith is trying this tactic in reverse.
Jesus taught us to pray to God in heaven. I correctly wrote that this is the only way Jesus taught us to pray. theefaith is denying the Scriptural evidence - that this is, in fact, the ONLY way Jesus said to prayer. Instead, he's focusing his argument on the use of the word only. Did Jesus say "only?"
It's a childish, rebellious retort. The implied standard is we only have to do things IF "only" is included in the communique. Jesus said to love others. Yabut he did not say to only love others ... Hope this answers your question.
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