Wrangler
Well-Known Member
Then why did intercession of saints come up?
The objection is not praying FOR but praying TO. You know that.
How does an adult become a Catholic?
- Thread starter Josho
- Start date
-
- Tags
- catholicism
-
Welcome to Christian Forums, a Christian Forum that recognizes that all Christians are a work in progress.
You will need to register to be able to join in fellowship with Christians all over the world.
We hope to see you as a part of our community soon and God Bless!
- Status
Then why did intercession of saints come up?
The objection is not praying FOR but praying TO. You know that.
I am leaving the forums for a break... however since this thread has been derailed so many times... Perhaps you would all desire to discuss other
things the Catholic church teaches. This was part of a post I made on my Canada and the Catholic church thread.
A few CLAIMS of the Catholic church....
The Catholic church claims that Mary was a virgin through-out her entire life. Scripture states that Jesus had other siblings.... even with that aside... (due to interpretation)... There is absolutely NO way that ANYONE can ACCURATELY state what happened in Mary and Joseph's marriage bed. This is a claim made by the church without any TRUE knowledge. END of story.
The Catholic church claims that a priest has the power and authority to absolve sin.
The Catholic Church teaches that Christ instituted the sacrament of penance. Rome teaches that divine forgiveness is granted through the priest’s absolution to those who confess their sins to a priest and make satisfaction for them. (Source: Just for Catholics)
Scripture clearly states that only Jesus Christ can forgive and absolve us of our sins... and HE does not make us do Penance ( a punishment given after confession by the priest to the penitent.... a punishment undergone in token of penitence for sin.)... nor does Christ make us confess through a go-between ( the priest who hears confession ). The bible tells us to CONFESS our sins to CHRIST...and that HE will forgive us. He never tells us to mow the lawn 15 times in order to obtain the full benefits of our confession.
The Catholic Church and her rituals only serve to make the Catholic DEPENDENT on the church rather than on Christ.
With regards to communion in the Catholic Church... it is taught that the bread ( host ) wafer is literally turned into the body of Christ and the wine is literally turned into the blood of Christ. No where in scripture does it tell us to INGEST the body of Christ or DRINK His blood. All sin and sacrifice was bought and paid for ONCE and for ALL by CHRIST when he died upon the cross.
As a former Catholic... I have received communion many times and I can assure you that what I received was a wafer.... and a drink of wine. It was NEVER my experience that I was ACTUALLY inhaling the body of Christ or drinking His blood. I clearly missed the significance of this "miracle".
things the Catholic church teaches. This was part of a post I made on my Canada and the Catholic church thread.
A few CLAIMS of the Catholic church....
The Catholic church claims that Mary was a virgin through-out her entire life. Scripture states that Jesus had other siblings.... even with that aside... (due to interpretation)... There is absolutely NO way that ANYONE can ACCURATELY state what happened in Mary and Joseph's marriage bed. This is a claim made by the church without any TRUE knowledge. END of story.
The Catholic church claims that a priest has the power and authority to absolve sin.
The Catholic Church teaches that Christ instituted the sacrament of penance. Rome teaches that divine forgiveness is granted through the priest’s absolution to those who confess their sins to a priest and make satisfaction for them. (Source: Just for Catholics)
Scripture clearly states that only Jesus Christ can forgive and absolve us of our sins... and HE does not make us do Penance ( a punishment given after confession by the priest to the penitent.... a punishment undergone in token of penitence for sin.)... nor does Christ make us confess through a go-between ( the priest who hears confession ). The bible tells us to CONFESS our sins to CHRIST...and that HE will forgive us. He never tells us to mow the lawn 15 times in order to obtain the full benefits of our confession.
The Catholic Church and her rituals only serve to make the Catholic DEPENDENT on the church rather than on Christ.
With regards to communion in the Catholic Church... it is taught that the bread ( host ) wafer is literally turned into the body of Christ and the wine is literally turned into the blood of Christ. No where in scripture does it tell us to INGEST the body of Christ or DRINK His blood. All sin and sacrifice was bought and paid for ONCE and for ALL by CHRIST when he died upon the cross.
As a former Catholic... I have received communion many times and I can assure you that what I received was a wafer.... and a drink of wine. It was NEVER my experience that I was ACTUALLY inhaling the body of Christ or drinking His blood. I clearly missed the significance of this "miracle".
Last edited:
What does praying to mean? Anyway?
the oldest prayer besides the Lord’s Prayer
Some people might think that the oldest prayer to the Blessed Virgin Mary would be the Hail Mary, but it’s not; the Sub Tuum Praesidium is an ancient Marian prayer of the early Church, the oldest known prayer to Our Lady. The oldest version of this prayer is in Greek on an Egyptian papyrus dating back to the 3rd century. The Latin translation dates from the 11th century and was likely made from the Greek.
St. Thomas Aquinas said of Our Lady: “As mariners are guided into port by the shining of a star, so Christians are guided to heaven by Mary.” The way to Heaven is fraught with diverse dangers and difficulties, but we can rely on the help of Our Lady, Star of the Sea!
“What a joy to remember that she is our mother. Since she loves us and knows our weakness, what have we to fear?” (St. Therese of Lisieux).
“If you invoke the Blessed Virgin when you are tempted, she will come at once to your help, and Satan will leave you” (St. John Vianney).
“In the evening when you go to sleep, hold your beads [Rosary beads], doze off reciting them; do like those babies who go to sleep mumbling, ‘Mamma! Mamma!’” (St. Bernadette).
“During little sufferings, pray by making the invocation, ‘Mary!’ and tell her you want it all to serve whatever intentions are most acceptable to her. Thus you put your sufferings like a chisel in the hands of a master sculptor” (St. Maximilan Kolbe).
“If you are in danger, if your hearts are confused, turn to Mary. She is our comfort, our help. Turn towards her and you will be saved” (St. Frances Xavier Cabrini).
“From Mary we learn to surrender to God’s will in all things. From Mary we learn to trust even when all hope seems gone. From Mary we learn to love Christ her Son and the Son of God” (Pope St. John Paul II).
“Always stay close to this Heavenly Mother, because she is the sea to be crossed to reach the shores of Eternal Splendor” (St. Pio).
So when you are struggling, pray for Our Lady’s intercession and take heart, knowing that she loves you and wants to help you.
Ancient Prayer to Our Lady (Sub Tuum Praesidium)
English:
We fly to thy protection,
O holy Mother of God.
Despise not our petitions in our necessities,
but deliver us always from all dangers,
O glorious and blessed Virgin.
Good enough for Angels!
Good enough for the Bible!
Good enough for me!
Hail Mary! Full of grace, the Lord is with thee, blessed art thou among women,
Lk 1:28 blessed is the fruit of thy womb, (Jesus) Lk 1:42 Holy Mary, mother of God, Lk 1:43 pray for us sinners, now,
rev 5:8 and at the hour of our death, Matt 24:13 amen!
Wrangler
Well-Known Member
It’s so odd that you object to the fact that several men in the Bible were worshipped but are AOK with praying to anyone - EVEN THOUGH Jesus said to pray only to God, the Father, in Heaven.
Prayer is not worship!
Not adoration!
No sacrifice offered!
And all glory ends in Christ who made them saints by His powerful grace
All by the authority of Christ thru his church or apostles Matt 16:18 18:18 acts 2:42 Jn 20:21-23
Wrangler
Well-Known Member
Illuminator
Well-Known Member
Illuminator
Well-Known Member
The historic Christian practice of asking our departed brothers and sisters in Christ—the saints—for their intercession has come under attack in the last few hundred years. Though the practice dates to the earliest days of Christianity and is shared by Catholics, Eastern Orthodox, the other Eastern Christians, and even some Anglicans, it still comes under heavy attack from many within the Protestant movement that started in the sixteenth century.
Why Do Catholics Pray to Saints? | Catholic Answers
Why Do Catholics Pray to Saints? | Catholic Answers
Wrangler
Well-Known Member
Illuminator
Well-Known Member
Since when do prayers have to be confined to Bible verses?
One charge made against it is that the saints in heaven cannot even hear our prayers, making it useless to ask for their intercession. But as Scripture indicates, those in heaven are aware of the prayers of those on earth. This can be seen, for example, in Revelation 5:8, where John depicts the saints in heaven offering our prayers to God under the form of “golden bowls full of incense, which are the prayers of the saints.” But if the saints in heaven are offering our prayers to God, then they must be aware of our prayers.
Some might try to argue that in this passage the prayers being offered were not addressed to the saints in heaven, but directly to God. Yet this argument would only strengthen the fact that those in heaven can hear our prayers, for then the saints would be aware of our prayers even when they are not directed to them!
Why Do Catholics Pray to Saints? | Catholic Answers
“Witnesses” of Hebrews 12:1 (Communion of Saints) | Dave Armstrong (patheos.com)
Illuminator
Well-Known Member
Hebrews 12:1
Therefore, since we are surrounded by so great a cloud of witnesses, let us also lay aside every weight, and sin which clings so closely, and let us run with perseverance the race that is set before us.
The great thing about the “cloud of witnesses” Hebrews mentions here is that they are not schleps who are sitting in the stadium, lazily cheering for the team while they swill beer and wolf pretzels. They are the Team. Every one of the witnesses in the cloud has been down on the field where you are now. Everyone is a champion. That’s why they are cheering. They know you can run the race of holiness in the Spirit because they did it themselves. Today, ask the heavenly witnesses, the saints of Jesus, to help you with their prayers and to join you in giving praise and glory to God, our heavenly Father.
@Wrangler doesn't get it.
Therefore, since we are surrounded by so great a cloud of witnesses, let us also lay aside every weight, and sin which clings so closely, and let us run with perseverance the race that is set before us.
The great thing about the “cloud of witnesses” Hebrews mentions here is that they are not schleps who are sitting in the stadium, lazily cheering for the team while they swill beer and wolf pretzels. They are the Team. Every one of the witnesses in the cloud has been down on the field where you are now. Everyone is a champion. That’s why they are cheering. They know you can run the race of holiness in the Spirit because they did it themselves. Today, ask the heavenly witnesses, the saints of Jesus, to help you with their prayers and to join you in giving praise and glory to God, our heavenly Father.
@Wrangler doesn't get it.
Illuminator
Well-Known Member
1 Cor. 3:9 – God invites us to participate in Christ’s work because we are God’s “fellow workers” and one family in the body of Christ. God wants His children to participate. The phrase used to describe “fellow workers” is “sunergoi,” which literally means synergists, or cooperators with God in salvific matters. Does God need fellow workers? Of course not, but this shows how much He, as Father, loves His children. God wants us to work with Him.
Mark 16:20 – this is another example of how the Lord “worked with them” (“sunergountos”). God cooperates with us. Out of His eternal love, He invites our participation.
Rom. 8:28 – God “works for good with” (the Greek is “sunergei eis agathon”) those who love Him. We work as subordinate mediators.
2 Cor. 6:1 – “working together” (the Greek is “sunergountes”) with him, don’t accept His grace in vain. God allows us to participate in His work, not because He needs our help, but because He loves us and wants to exalt us in His Son. It is like the father who lets his child join him in carrying the groceries in the house. The father does not need help, but he invites the child to assist to raise up the child in dignity and love.
Heb. 12:1 – the “cloud of witnesses” (nephos marturon) that we are surrounded by is a great amphitheatre of witnesses to the earthly race, and they actively participate and cheer us (the runners) on, in our race to salvation.
1 Peter 2:5 – we are a holy priesthood, instructed to offer spiritual sacrifices to God. We are therefore subordinate priests to the Head Priest, but we are still priests who participate in Christ’s work of redemption.
Rev. 1:6, 5:10 – Jesus made us a kingdom of priests for God. Priests intercede through Christ on behalf of God’s people.
James 5:16; Proverbs 15:8, 29 – the prayers of the righteous (the saints) have powerful effects. This is why we ask for their prayers. How much more powerful are the saints’ prayers in heaven, in whom righteousness has been perfected.
1 Tim 2:5-6 – therefore, it is because Jesus Christ is the one mediator before God that we can be subordinate mediators. Jesus is the reason. The Catholic position thus gives Jesus the most glory. He does it all but loves us so much He desires our participation.
It is like the father who lets his child join him in carrying the groceries in the house. The father does not need help, but he invites the child to assist to raise up the child in dignity and love.
@Wrangler thinks he is not invited. What a poverty!
Mark 16:20 – this is another example of how the Lord “worked with them” (“sunergountos”). God cooperates with us. Out of His eternal love, He invites our participation.
Rom. 8:28 – God “works for good with” (the Greek is “sunergei eis agathon”) those who love Him. We work as subordinate mediators.
2 Cor. 6:1 – “working together” (the Greek is “sunergountes”) with him, don’t accept His grace in vain. God allows us to participate in His work, not because He needs our help, but because He loves us and wants to exalt us in His Son. It is like the father who lets his child join him in carrying the groceries in the house. The father does not need help, but he invites the child to assist to raise up the child in dignity and love.
Heb. 12:1 – the “cloud of witnesses” (nephos marturon) that we are surrounded by is a great amphitheatre of witnesses to the earthly race, and they actively participate and cheer us (the runners) on, in our race to salvation.
1 Peter 2:5 – we are a holy priesthood, instructed to offer spiritual sacrifices to God. We are therefore subordinate priests to the Head Priest, but we are still priests who participate in Christ’s work of redemption.
Rev. 1:6, 5:10 – Jesus made us a kingdom of priests for God. Priests intercede through Christ on behalf of God’s people.
James 5:16; Proverbs 15:8, 29 – the prayers of the righteous (the saints) have powerful effects. This is why we ask for their prayers. How much more powerful are the saints’ prayers in heaven, in whom righteousness has been perfected.
1 Tim 2:5-6 – therefore, it is because Jesus Christ is the one mediator before God that we can be subordinate mediators. Jesus is the reason. The Catholic position thus gives Jesus the most glory. He does it all but loves us so much He desires our participation.
It is like the father who lets his child join him in carrying the groceries in the house. The father does not need help, but he invites the child to assist to raise up the child in dignity and love.
@Wrangler thinks he is not invited. What a poverty!
Wrangler
Well-Known Member
Since when does anything have to be confined to Bible verses?
Your position is ridiculous. There is a reason the question of prayer cane up. Maybe your view is Jesus was wrong in his answer?
Wrangler
Well-Known Member
Oh God. More PERVERSION OF EQUALITY. See 1 Corinthians 11:3. There is a hierarchy. Not everyone is God.
I get you are following tradition over Scripture.
Stated nowhere in Scripture. This is anti-Christ, opposite the way Jesus taught us to pray.
On the contrary it glorifies Christ who made them saints by His powerful grace
2 Thessalonians 1:10
When he shall come to be glorified in hissaints, and to be admired in all them that believe (because our testimony among you was believed) in that day.
- Romans 8:17
And if children, then heirs; heirs of God, and joint-heirs with Christ; if so be that we suffer with him, that we may be also glorified together.
Illuminator
Well-Known Member
No, I explained that God invites us to participate in Christ's work in post 113 which your theology is lacking so you must derail with "tradition".
Everyone is a champion in the cloud of witnesses in Hebrews 12:1. You're butchering my quotes. "Not everyone is God" is the type of remark coming from a 2 year old having a temper tantrum.
1) Greek-English Lexicon of the New Testament (Joseph H. Thayer, Grand Rapids, Michigan: Baker Book House, 4th ed., 1977; orig. 1901, 392) defines it — as used in this verse — as follows:
“One who is a spectator of anything, e.g. of a contest, Heb 12:1.”
[Strong’s word #3144; similar usages cited by Thayer: Lk 24:48; Acts 1:8; 1:22; 2:32; 3:15; 5:32; 10:39; 13:31; 26:16; 1 Pet 5:1 – the sense is indisputable in these other verses]
2) Word Studies in the New Testament (Marvin R. Vincent, Grand Rapids, Michigan: Eerdmans, 1980; orig. 1887; vol. 4, 536), another standard Protestant language source, comments on this verse as follows:
‘Witnesses’ does not mean spectators, but those who have borne witness to the truth, as those enumerated in chapter 11. Yet the idea of spectators is implied, and is really the principal idea. The writer’s picture is that of an arena in which the Christians whom he addresses are contending in a race, while the vast host of the heroes of faith who, after having borne witness to the truth, have entered into their heavenly rest, watches the contest from the encircling tiers of the arena, compassing and overhanging it like a cloud, filled with lively interest and sympathy, and lending heavenly aid.
3) Word Pictures in the New Testament (A. T. Robertson [Baptist], Nashville, Tennessee: Broadman Press, 1932, vol. 5, 432), comments:
‘Cloud of witnesses’ (nephos marturon . . . The metaphor refers to the great amphitheatre with the arena for the runners and the tiers upon tiers of seats rising up like a cloud. The martures here are not mere spectators (theatai), but testifiers (witnesses) who testify from their own experience (11:2,4-5, 33, 39) to God’s fulfilling promises as shown in chapter 11.
[Note that the notion of “spectators” is the primary metaphor — the arena — so that both meanings: that of spectators and witnesses in the sense of example are present. Neither can be ruled out]
4) Theological Dictionary of the New Testament, (ed. Gerhard Kittel & Gerhard Friedrich; tr. and abridged by Geoffrey W. Bromiley, Grand Rapids, Michigan: Eerdmans, 1985; 567), an impeccable and widely-used linguistic (non-Catholic) source, states:
“In Heb. 12:1 the witnesses watching the race seem to be confessing witnesses (cf. 11:2), but this does not exclude the element of factual witness.”
So our four non-Catholic language references all confirm that the element of “spectatorship,” which lends itself to the Catholic notion of communion of saints, where saints in heaven are aware of, and observe events on earth, is present in Hebrews 12:1, and cannot be ruled out by any means, on the basis of a doctrinal bias.
“Witnesses” of Hebrews 12:1
Scripture is part of tradition!
2 Thessalonians 2:15
Therefore, brethren, stand fast, and holdthe traditions which ye have been taught, whether by word, or our epistle.
don’t believe the Bible alone
But what God has revealed in His word and His word is not limited to the scriptures
Acts 2:42 Lk 1:4 eph 4:5 Jude 1:3
2 Thessalonians 2:15
Therefore, brethren, stand fast, and holdthe traditions which ye have been taught, whether by word, or our epistle.
don’t believe the Bible alone
But what God has revealed in His word and His word is not limited to the scriptures
Acts 2:42 Lk 1:4 eph 4:5 Jude 1:3
- Status
Similar threads
