How does an adult become a Catholic?

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Illuminator

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As a quick lesson why Martin Luther left the RCC after discovering the book of Romans, read the way Paul told the Roman Catholic Sect to be saved, in Romans 10:8-13, to the way the RCC teaches to saved.
First, the CC (not "RCC") is the original historic Church founded by Jesus Christ, it is not a "sect".
Second, Martin Luther added the word "alone" to his German translation of Romans 3:28 to bolster his false teaching of JBFA.
Third, Martin Luther's teachings were influenced by his mental illness. In America in the 1910s, Professor Preserved Smith from Amherst College wrote several articles and books analyzing Luther from a Freudian perspective and finding evidence of psycho-pathology in him.

In 1937, a Copenhagen Psychiatrist, Paul J. Reiter MD wrote a 2 volume study, Martin Luther's World Character and Psychosis and the Influence of These Factors on his Development and Teachings which also demonstrated in detail from his own writings that Luther was mentally disturbed.

There is a review of Reiter's book here:

PEP Web (Martin Luther's World Character and Psychosis and the Influence of These Factors on his Development and Teachings. 2 Volumes.): By Paul J. Reiter, M.D.

Fourth, the Lutheran Church and the Catholic Church ("CC", not "RCC") issued a joint declaration on justification in 1999, ending centuries of unnecessary hostilities.
 
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Wrangler

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Then you deny Christ for his passion and death are the source of merits that produce graces for the communion is saints

Non-sequitor. There is such abounding illogic in your posts, there is no logical place to begin to respond to the fact that Saints are not God and I don’t pray to anyone but God - as Jesus taught.
 

theefaith

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Non-sequitor. There is such abounding illogic in your posts, there is no logical place to begin to respond to the fact that Saints are not God and I don’t pray to anyone but God - as Jesus taught.
He also taught this Lk 10:16
 

Illuminator

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amigo de christo

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As long as you know the graces come from the merit of chirst’s passion and death and He get the glory
SO long as we follow THE JESUS and not some other JESUS . That matters . Paul knew it did and so did the others .
IF i come presenting another jesus , I Do not know THE JESUS .
The RCC is dangerous . I must remain faithful to Christ even unto death my friend . Thus as much as i love you and you all ,
I wont be partaking in this end time unity . For it forsakes the doctrine of Christ and of truth , for the sake of unity and lets just find common ground .
PS . THE RCC began this whole thing . But she is not alone .
 

Curtis

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They are one another also, all are in Christ and in the communion of saints

There’s a difference between asking someone on earth to pray for you, and praying to someone in heaven to ask them to pray for you - they can’t hear you, plus Jesus s@id to pray to the Father in His name - not to saints or Mary.

Only God can hear us in heaven.

Another difference is this - even if saints and Mary could hear prayers, they couldn’t possibly hear and deal with millions of Catholics worldwide, praying to them in many different languages continuously 24/7. They’d have to be almighty God to do that.

Since Catholics use the analogy of asking believers on earth to pray for us - how well do you think your fellow believer John Smith, as an example, could handle a million emails per day in 6 different languages- continuously? or a million phone calls day and night, continuously?

Mary couldn’t handle it either.
 
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Illuminator

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What's the difference?
"CC" is the correct abbreviation for "Catholic Church", "RCC" is incorrect because it only refers to one rite out of 24 rites.
A rite represents an ecclesiastical tradition about how the sacraments are to be celebrated. As the early Church grew and spread, it celebrated the sacraments as would be best understood and received in the context of individual cultures, without ever changing their essential form and matter. The early Church sought to evangelize in the major cultural centers of the first centuries A.D. These centers were Rome, Antioch (Syria), and Alexandria (Egypt). All the rites in use today evolved from the liturgical practices and ecclesiastical organization used by the churches in these cities. Christ is ALL things to ALL men in different cultures, without ever changing their essential form and matter. RITES
Not long ago, priests of the Melkite rite, originating from Antioch, were being beheaded in Syria. They are Catholics, not "RCC"s.
 

Illuminator

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There’s a difference between asking someone on earth to pray for you, and praying to someone in heaven to ask them to pray for you - they can’t hear you, plus Jesus s@id to pray to the Father in His name - not to saints or Mary.

Only God can hear us in heaven.
That's your opinion.

The Mystical Body of Christ, according to Catholicism and universal Christian Tradition before the arrival of Protestantism in 1517, has three levels of existence, and communication and cooperation (in differing degrees) occurs between all of them. Those on earth invoke the prayers of the saints in heaven, honor them as glorified Christians and seek to imitate them. They also pray for the souls in purgatory. Those in heaven pray for the saints on earth and in purgatory. Those in purgatory can invoke the saints in heaven and pray for us struggling with the world, the flesh, and the devil. Protestants are inclined to think that scriptural evidences for the Communion of Saints are entirely lacking, but such is not the case.

1) The "Apocrypha" Perhaps the clearest proofs of this doctrine exist in the books known to Protestants as the "Apocrypha" (called "Deuterocanonical" by Catholics), which Protestants removed from the Bible (the first time this had happened in the history of Christianity). In 2 Maccabees 15:11-16 Jeremiah the prophet prays for the Jews centuries after his death (compare Jer 15:1), along with the deceased high priest Onias. Likewise, Tobit 12:1-22 (especially 12,15) presents Raphael the angel as one of the "seven holy angels, which present the prayers of the saints." Tobit 12:15 is apparently referred to in Rev 5:8 and 8:3-4, which speak of the "prayers of the saints" being offered to God, and in Rev 1:4, which mentions the "seven Spirits." There is plenty of proof, however, in Protestant Bibles, too:

2) Revelation 1:4
3) Revelation 5:8 and 8:3-4
The saints (the 24 elders are usually regarded as dead Christians) and angels lay the prayers of the Christians on earth at the feet of God; that is, they are praying for them and acting as intercessory intermediaries. Thus, the propriety of invoking them logically follows from the plain fact of their intercession. This is identical to the Catholic teaching. Protestant commentaries scramble to come up with some alternate version of what is taking place here, straining at gnats, rationalizing, and splitting hairs. It is amusing to find that often these Protestant works will vehemently maintain that the Catholic view is definitely not taught in a particular Bible verse, while rarely offering a plausible or coherent alternate explanation!

Protestantism accepts the superior knowledge of angels and their ability to understand and influence our thoughts (see 1 Cor 4:9), yet illogically deny that we could ever ask them for their aid, since they construct a false dichotomy whereby invocation of any being beside God is somehow always and necessarily idolatrous. Here, in these passages, dead saints are also exercising the same function as the angels. Yet, if we can't ask either type of being for their intercession, it seems that we could not pray for each other either, since the "invocation" of a saint or angel simply means asking them for their prayers to God, not as beings who are capable of answering the prayers in and of themselves. The Protestant argument, then, proves too much and must be discarded.

4) Revelation 6:9-10

These dead Christian martyrs are uttering what are known as "imprecatory prayers," pleas for God's judgment of the wicked and vindication of the righteous (e.g., see Ps 35;69;79;109;139; Jer 11:18 ff.; 15:15 ff.; 18:19 ff.; Jesus in Mt 26:53). Thus, dead saints are praying for Christians on earth, and, by logical extension, can be asked for prayers. They are aware of earthly events (Heb 12:1), and are more alive, unfathomably more righteous (Jas 5:16), and obviously closer to God than we are.

They need not be omniscient to hear our prayers, but merely out of time. It makes no less sense to ask for their prayers than to request those of any person on earth. In fact, the prayer above was answered by God who hastens the end of the age (8:1-5). Therefore, if the prayers of the Christians in heaven is so important in this instance, one can only imagine their immense weightiness in the overall scheme of things.
 

Illuminator

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5) Matthew 18:10
The notion that every person has their own guardian angel, who has direct access to God, is strongly implied. If Jesus said He could have asked for the assistance of an angel (Mt 26:53) - and He certainly would not have been worshiping them in so doing - then we, who need their help infinitely more than He, can do the same without necessarily engaging in idolatry (anything can become an idol if we let it). Nor will it do for Protestants to equate the Intercession of the Saints with the communication with evil spirits by means of a medium or other occultic techniques. This is nonsense. The Communion of the Saints is nothing more than the recognition that saints after death (and angels) are more alive than us, aware of happenings on earth, desirous of aiding us, and able to be asked for help and to assist us with their prayer and intercession.

6) Dead Saints Appear on Earth to Interact With Men
Not only does God not want a prohibition of contact between saints in heaven and on earth, but He goes so far as to allow, on several occasions as recorded in the Bible, dead saints to return to earth for this very purpose! These are instances accepted by Protestants, but their implications are only fully developed within Catholicism. We find, for example, Moses and Elijah appearing on the Mount of Transfiguration to talk to Jesus, while Peter, James, and John were present (Mt 17:1-3 / Mk 9:4 / Lk 9:30-31).

Likewise, the two "witnesses" of Rev 11:3-13 are saints who had come back to life, thought by many commentators to be, again, Moses and Elijah, and by others, Enoch and Elijah. Thirdly, the prophet Samuel (not just a demon impersonating him) appears in 1 Sam 28:7-20, as the great majority of commentators hold (the "Apocryphal" book Ecclesiasticus makes this clear - 46:13,20). "Many bodies of the saints" came out of their graves after Jesus' Resurrection and went into Jerusalem, appearing to many (Mt 27:50-53). Lastly, Jeremiah returns to earth (2 Maccabees 15:13-16).

All of these occurrences involve long-dead figures (as op-posed to other resurrections such as Lazarus and Jairus' daughter), and demolish the notion of Protestantism that there is an unbridgeable gulf between heaven and earth - a sort of spiritual "Berlin wall." There is no such bridge, according to the Bible, because there is only one Church and Mystical Body of Christ, and death cannot affect the communion between its members of whatever estate. It's interesting to note that Moses and Samuel, who together appear in two and perhaps three of the five examples above, are renowned among Jews and Christians for their powerful intercession (Ex 32:11-12; 1 Sam 7:9; Ps 99:6; Jer 15:1 - implied after-death prayer).

In all cases, much communication takes place with people on earth. Samuel talks to Saul and Saul replies; Peter, James, and John may have heard Moses and Elijah talking to Jesus (it's unclear); the two witnesses prophesy for three and a half years (obviously including conversation), the resurrected saints of Mt 27 "appeared unto many," presumably talking with them as did Jesus in His post-Resurrection appearances; and Jeremiah spoke to Judas Maccabeus.

In light of these scriptural facts, how could anyone contend that God forbids such interaction, allowing only that between man and God, and men with men on earth? God could easily have disallowed any of these occurrences if they were indeed "contrary to the unique mediatorship of Jesus Christ." In conclusion, we find, then, that all the elements of the Catholic doctrines of the Communion of Saints are undoubtedly found in the Bible, and not just in the Deuterocanonical books, for all to see.

7) The Veneration of Saints Devotions to angels and saints no more interfere and corrupt the incommunicable Glory of the Eternal God and Creator than does the love we have towards friends and relatives. A tender and healthy attachment to the saints will give vent to feelings in the language of hyperbole, just as human lovers wax eloquent in their romantic praises of each other, never intending to literally worship the object of love and affection.

If we honor the memory of political heroes (e.g., Jefferson, Lincoln) with statues, and war heroes with monuments (e.g., the Vietnam Memorial), why can we not honor the great Christian saints and the towering righteous men and women of the Old Testament? We address judges as "Your Honor" and are commanded to "honor thy mother and father" in the Ten Commandments. The saints are still alive and able to influence and assist us.

Thus, the Veneration of Saints is more than merely mental inspiration (although it includes that aspect as well). God somehow takes up into Himself the whole creation and `lives in it,' `moves' in it, and in it `is' (cf. Acts 17:28). The veneration given to angels and saints is essentially different from the worship offered to God. To God alone belongs the adoration of the whole man. But God's glory is also reflected in His children. They are dewdrops in which the sun's radiance is mirrored. They are venerated because God is present in them.

A sound biblical basis for Veneration of Saints can be found in the Pauline passages where the Apostle exhorts his followers to "imitate" him (1 Cor 4:16; Phil 3:17; 2 Thess 3:7-9) as he, in turn, imitates Jesus Christ (1 Cor 11:1; 1 Thess 1:6). Also, we are told to honor and imitate the "heroes of the faith" in Heb 6:12 and ch. 11, and to take heart in the examples of the prophets and Job, who endured suffering (Jas 5:10-11). It has been said that the painter is most honored when his masterpiece is complimented, because he knows that such praise reflects back upon himself (see 2 Cor 3:18).

Read more: https://www.catholicfidelity.com/apologetics-topics/communion-of-saints/the-communion-of-saints-by-dave-armstrong/
 

Curtis

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That's your opinion.

The Mystical Body of Christ, according to Catholicism and universal Christian Tradition before the arrival of Protestantism in 1517, has three levels of existence, and communication and cooperation (in differing degrees) occurs between all of them. Those on earth invoke the prayers of the saints in heaven, honor them as glorified Christians and seek to imitate them. They also pray for the souls in purgatory. Those in heaven pray for the saints on earth and in purgatory. Those in purgatory can invoke the saints in heaven and pray for us struggling with the world, the flesh, and the devil. Protestants are inclined to think that scriptural evidences for the Communion of Saints are entirely lacking, but such is not the case.

1) The "Apocrypha" Perhaps the clearest proofs of this doctrine exist in the books known to Protestants as the "Apocrypha" (called "Deuterocanonical" by Catholics), which Protestants removed from the Bible (the first time this had happened in the history of Christianity). In 2 Maccabees 15:11-16 Jeremiah the prophet prays for the Jews centuries after his death (compare Jer 15:1), along with the deceased high priest Onias. Likewise, Tobit 12:1-22 (especially 12,15) presents Raphael the angel as one of the "seven holy angels, which present the prayers of the saints." Tobit 12:15 is apparently referred to in Rev 5:8 and 8:3-4, which speak of the "prayers of the saints" being offered to God, and in Rev 1:4, which mentions the "seven Spirits." There is plenty of proof, however, in Protestant Bibles, too:

2) Revelation 1:4
3) Revelation 5:8 and 8:3-4
The saints (the 24 elders are usually regarded as dead Christians) and angels lay the prayers of the Christians on earth at the feet of God; that is, they are praying for them and acting as intercessory intermediaries. Thus, the propriety of invoking them logically follows from the plain fact of their intercession. This is identical to the Catholic teaching. Protestant commentaries scramble to come up with some alternate version of what is taking place here, straining at gnats, rationalizing, and splitting hairs. It is amusing to find that often these Protestant works will vehemently maintain that the Catholic view is definitely not taught in a particular Bible verse, while rarely offering a plausible or coherent alternate explanation!

Protestantism accepts the superior knowledge of angels and their ability to understand and influence our thoughts (see 1 Cor 4:9), yet illogically deny that we could ever ask them for their aid, since they construct a false dichotomy whereby invocation of any being beside God is somehow always and necessarily idolatrous. Here, in these passages, dead saints are also exercising the same function as the angels. Yet, if we can't ask either type of being for their intercession, it seems that we could not pray for each other either, since the "invocation" of a saint or angel simply means asking them for their prayers to God, not as beings who are capable of answering the prayers in and of themselves. The Protestant argument, then, proves too much and must be discarded.

4) Revelation 6:9-10

These dead Christian martyrs are uttering what are known as "imprecatory prayers," pleas for God's judgment of the wicked and vindication of the righteous (e.g., see Ps 35;69;79;109;139; Jer 11:18 ff.; 15:15 ff.; 18:19 ff.; Jesus in Mt 26:53). Thus, dead saints are praying for Christians on earth, and, by logical extension, can be asked for prayers. They are aware of earthly events (Heb 12:1), and are more alive, unfathomably more righteous (Jas 5:16), and obviously closer to God than we are.

They need not be omniscient to hear our prayers, but merely out of time. It makes no less sense to ask for their prayers than to request those of any person on earth. In fact, the prayer above was answered by God who hastens the end of the age (8:1-5). Therefore, if the prayers of the Christians in heaven is so important in this instance, one can only imagine their immense weightiness in the overall scheme of things.

So you think Mary has nothing better to do in heaven - like worship God continually, as they do in heaven - except deal with millions of prayer requests to her daily!

Just because souls in heaven talk to God, which is what prayer is - means they have the power of God to hear anyone on earth trying to pray to them?

That’s not supported by any scripture.
 
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Pearl

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You don’t see how this directly contradicts Scripture, which says Jesus is our only mediator to God?
I am a saint as are all those who are in Christ. All others are sinners.
 

theefaith

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There’s a difference between asking someone on earth to pray for you, and praying to someone in heaven to ask them to pray for you - they can’t hear you, plus Jesus s@id to pray to the Father in His name - not to saints or Mary.

Only God can hear us in heaven.

Another difference is this - even if saints and Mary could hear prayers, they couldn’t possibly hear and deal with millions of Catholics worldwide, praying to them in many different languages continuously 24/7. They’d have to be almighty God to do that.

Since Catholics use the analogy of asking believers on earth to pray for us - how well do you think your fellow believer John Smith, as an example, could handle a million emails per day in 6 different languages- continuously? or a million phone calls day and night, continuously?

Mary couldn’t handle it either.
The power of the Holy Spirit
Lk 1:37
 

Illuminator

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You don’t see how this directly contradicts Scripture, which says Jesus is our only mediator to God?
But asking one person to pray for you in no way violates Christ’s mediatorship, as can be seen from considering the way in which Christ is a mediator. First, Christ is a unique mediator between man and God because he is the only person who is both God and man. He is the only bridge between the two, the only God-man. But that role as mediator is not compromised in the least by the fact that others intercede for us. Furthermore, Christ is a unique mediator between God and man because he is the mediator of the New Covenant (Heb. 9:15, 12:24), just as Moses was the mediator (Greek mesitas) of the Old Covenant (Gal. 3:19–20).

The intercession of fellow Christians—which is what the saints in heaven are—also clearly does not interfere with Christ’s unique mediatorship because in the four verses immediately preceding 1 Timothy 2:5, Paul says that Christians should intercede:
“First of all, then, I urge that supplications, prayers, intercessions, and thanksgivings be made for all men, for kings and all who are in high positions, that we may lead a quiet and peaceable life, godly and respectful in every way. This is good, and pleasing to God our Savior, who desires all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth” (1 Tim. 2:1–4).
Clearly, then, intercessory prayers offered by Christians on behalf of others is something “good and pleasing to God,” not something infringing on Christ’s role as mediator.
Why Do Catholics Pray to Saints? | Catholic Answers
 
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Illuminator

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So you think Mary has nothing better to do in heaven - like worship God continually, as they do in heaven - except deal with millions of prayer requests to her daily!

Just because souls in heaven talk to God, which is what prayer is - means they have the power of God to hear anyone on earth trying to pray to them?

That’s not supported by any scripture.
If being in heaven were like being in the next room, then of course these objections would be valid. A mortal, unglorified person in the next room would indeed suffer the restrictions imposed by the way space and time work in our universe. But the saints are not in the next room, and they are not subject to the time/space limitations of this life.
Why Do Catholics Pray to Saints? | Catholic Answers
This does not imply that the saints in heaven therefore must be omniscient, as God is, for it is only through God’s willing it that they can communicate with others in heaven or with us. So your argument is even further off the mark.
 
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theefaith

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Communion of the Saints! /
Throne of Grace!


One Mediator does not exclude other ministers and intercession prayer.

Romans 15:25
But now I go unto Jerusalem to minister unto the saints.

1 Corinthians 16:15
I beseech you, brethren, (ye know the house of Stephanas, that it is the firstfruits of Achaia, and that they have addicted themselves to the ministry of the saints,)

2 Corinthians 8:4
Praying us with much intreaty that we would receive the gift, and take upon us the fellowship of the ministering to the saints

Ephesians 6:18
Praying always with all prayer and supplication in the Spirit, and watching thereunto with all perseverance and supplication for all saints;

Hebrews 6:10
For God is not unrighteous to forget your work and labour of love, which ye have shewed toward his name, in that ye have ministered to the saints, and do minister.

Revelation 5:8
And when he had taken the book, the four beasts and four and twenty elders fell down before the Lamb, having every one of them harps, and golden vials full of odours, which are the prayers of saints.

Revelation 8:3
And another angel came and stood at the altar, having a golden censer; and there was given unto him much incense, that he should offer it with the prayers of all saints upon the golden altar which was before the throne.

Revelation 8:4
And the smoke of the incense, which came with the prayers of the saints, ascended up before God out of the angel's hand.



Communion with of all members of Christ!

1 Corinthians 10:16
The cup of blessing which we bless, is it not the communion of the blood of Christ? The bread which we break, is it not the communion of the body of Christ?

2 Corinthians 13:14
The grace of the Lord Jesus Christ, and the love of God, and the communion of the Holy Ghost, be with you all. Amen.

Ephesians 1:18
The eyes of your understanding being enlightened; that ye may know what is the hope of his calling, and what the riches of the glory of his inheritance in the saints,

Ephesians 2:19
Now therefore ye are no more strangers and foreigners, but fellowcitizens with the saints, and of the household of God;

1 Timothy 3:15
But if I tarry long, that thou mayest know how thou oughtest to behave thyself in the house of God, which is the church of the living God, the pillar and ground of the truth.

Galatians 6:10
As we have therefore opportunity, let us do good unto all men, especially unto them who are of the household of faith.

1 Corinthians 12:13
For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body, whether we be Jews or Gentiles, whether we be bond or free; and have been all made to drink into one Spirit.

Called to be Saints!

Romans 1:7
To all that be in Rome, beloved of God, called to be saints: Grace to you and peace from God our Father, and the Lord Jesus Christ.

1 Corinthians 1:2
Unto the church of God which is at Corinth, to them that are sanctified in Christ Jesus, called to be saints, with all that in every place call upon the name of Jesus Christ our Lord, both their's and our's:

Holy Nation!

1 Peter 2:9
But ye are a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, an holy nation, a peculiar people; that ye should shew forth the praises of him who hath called you out of darkness into his marvellous light;

Prayers for all the Saints!

Ephesians 6:18
Praying always with all prayer and supplication in the Spirit, and watching thereunto with all perseverance and supplication for all saints;

Glorified in His Saints!

2 Thessalonians 1:10
When he shall come to be glorified in his saints, and to be admired in all them that believe (because our testimony among you was believed) in that day.

All the Saints are alive in Christ and pray for each other!

John 11:25
Jesus said unto her, I am the resurrection, and the life: he that believeth in me, though he were dead, yet shall he live:

Rev 5:8 And when he had taken the book, the four beasts and four and twenty elders fell down before the Lamb, having every one of them harps, and golden vials full of odours, which are the prayers of saints.

Rev 8:3 And another angel came and stood at the altar, having a golden censer; and there was given unto him much incense, that he should offer it with the prayers of all saints upon the golden altar which was before the throne.
4 And the smoke of the incense, which came with the prayers of the saints, ascended up before God out of the angel's hand.



Throne of Divine a Grace!

Hebrews 4:16
Let us therefore come boldly unto the throne of grace, that we may obtain mercy, and find grace to help in time of need.

Following verses show there are thrones other than God’s throne!

2 Samuel 7:13
He shall build an house for my name, and I will stablish the throne of his kingdom for ever.

Matthew 19:28
And Jesus said unto them, Verily I say unto you, That ye which have followed me, in the regeneration when the Son of man shall sit in the throne of his glory, ye also shall sit upon twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel.

Following verses show that God’s throne is described different than the throne of Grace!

Matthew 25:31
When the Son of man shall come in his glory, and all the holy angels with him, then shall he sit upon the throne of his glory:

Acts 7:49
Heaven is my throne, and earth is my footstool: what house will ye build me? saith the Lord: or what is the place of my rest?

Hebrews 1:8
But unto the Son he saith, Thy throne, O God, is for ever and ever: a sceptre of righteousness is the sceptre of thy kingdom.

Hebrews 8:1
Now of the things which we have spoken this is the sum: We have such an high priest, who is set on the right hand of the throne of the Majesty in the heavens;

Revelation 4:4
And round about the throne were four and twenty seats: and upon the seats I saw four and twenty elders sitting, clothed in white raiment; and they had on their heads crowns of gold.

Revelation 4:5
And out of the throne proceeded lightnings and thunderings and voices: and there were seven lamps of fire burning before the throne, which are the seven Spirits of God.

Revelation 4:6
And before the throne there was a sea of glass like unto crystal: and in the midst of the throne, and round about the throne, were four beasts full of eyes before and behind.

Revelation 5:11
And I beheld, and I heard the voice of many angels round about the throne and the beasts and the elders:

With the throne of Grace none of these things are described!

The throne of Grace is the throne of Mary the ever Virgin mother of God!

We come boldly to this throne cause Mary is our mother and advocate!

Mary is the storehouse of divine graces!

Lk 1:28
And the angel entered to her, and said, Hail Mary, full of grace; the Lord is with thee; blessed be thou among women.
 
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