This is false today. It was true in the first century until the gifts expired. We've been speaking about the gifts expiring with the Apostles. But scripture also teaches their expiration when the perfect came. If scripture is perfect, and does a better job by providing the full revelation, instead of the gifts providing only fragments, isn't that enough to prove today's mimicking of the "gifts" fraudulent?
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1stCenturyLady
Well-Known Member
The gifts are part of the New Covenant. They can't "expire" until the covenant, itself, is over at the second coming. You don't know covenant law.
We've already shown from scripture the gifts expired with the apostles. But scripture also says they expired with the coming (revelation) of Jesus in the ad 90s.
Paul says; “so that ye come behind in no gift; waiting for the revelation of our Lord Jesus Christ; who shall also confirm you unto the end, that ye be unreproveable in the day of our Lord Jesus Christ. God is faithful, through whom ye were called into the fellowship of his Son Jesus Christ our Lord.” (1 Corinthians 1:7–9)
Notice, when Jesus is revealed he will also confirm us to the end, placing his revelation before the end. So this Revelation is not at the end of the world as charismatics say.
The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave him to show unto his servants, even the things which must shortly come to pass: and he sent and signified it by his angel unto his servant John;” (Revelation 1:1)
John uses the same greek word as Paul speaking of the Revelation of Jesus Christ.
602. ἀποκάλυψις apŏkalupsis, ap-ok-al´-oop-sis; from 601; disclosure:—appearing, coming, lighten, manifestation, be revealed, revelation.
Strong, J. (2009). A Concise Dictionary of the Words in the Greek Testament and The Hebrew Bible (Vol. 1, p. 14).
So John's book of Revelation is the same revelation Paul spoke of. Telling believers to come behind in any gift until then.
1stCenturyLady
Well-Known Member
Sorry, we haven't actually seen Jesus "face to face" yet, so you're wrong. A prophecy "about" seeing Jesus face to face isn't the same as actually seeing Him and knowing Him as He knows us. The covenant hasn't ended, yet. You can twist scripture any way you like to try and disprove God's work being manifest today, but it just confirms your unbelief, and just as tongues is a sign to the unbeliever, you disparage the gifts.
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This is an example of what I'm talking about. Scripture plainly says the Revelation of Christ Paul spoke of took place with the writing of the book of Revelation. Same words, phrases and everything. But you deny scripture and replace it with your thoughts on the matter. Seeing through the glass darkly was tongues, prophecy, knowledge, the fragments of truth that went into the completed canon of scripture where we see, Jesus, the word of God, face to face.
1stCenturyLady
Well-Known Member
It is like you are trying to prove what they said in the dark ages about the earth being flat. You can believe what you like and stay in blatant ignorance, but the evidence to the contrary is staggering. And that is because the New Covenant has not ended, no matter what you think. The Holy Spirit is working today; He hasn't gone on vacation to Mars.
Well Paul made it perfectly clear that when the Scriptures were completed, three spiritual gifts would vanish away, and in fact they did.
1 CORINTHIANS 13
8 Charity never faileth: but whether there be prophecies, they shall fail; whether there be tongues, they shall cease; whether there be knowledge, it shall vanish away.
9 For we know in part, and we prophesy in part.
10 But when that which is perfect is come, then that which is in part shall be done away.
The Bible does NOT say "He who is perfect" but "that which is COMPLETE". That Greek word teleios means complete.
Strong's Concordance
teleios: having reached its end, i.e. complete, by ext. perfect
Original Word: τέλειος, α, ον
Part of Speech: Adjective
Transliteration: teleios
Phonetic Spelling: (tel'-i-os)
Definition: having reached its end, complete, perfect
Usage: perfect, (a) complete in all its parts, (b) full grown, of full age, (c) specially of the completeness of Christian character.
1stCenturyLady
Well-Known Member
I know you are thinking that Paul was a proud man believing that when all his writings were compiled in one book that that is "the perfect" and it would somehow bridle the Holy Spirit, but that is not what it say, it is what you say it says to justify unbelief.
The Holy Spirit works in my life in ways before unknown when I thought I had some of the charismatic gifts.
1stCenturyLady
Well-Known Member
So now, instead of attributing to the gifts and the Holy Spirit, you attribute to your own self?
No, I use scripture alone for instruction. And God speaks personally through love, the Spirit bearing witness with my spirit. If I need to make a decision, I do what love would do and therefore know I made the right call. I also realize God works in me to will and do of his good pleasure, so the path I choose is a result of that, providing my heart is right. There's much more peace here than chasing other people's visions and imaginary voices.
That passage is in PLAIN ENGLISH and it says exactly what it says. The issue is not whether Paul was a proud man but whether God would limit the Scriptures to what we now find in the Bible (66 books, which could have been 51 books had we followed the Hebrew Bible exactly).
Paul already anticipated PROPHETICALLY that the Bible would be a complete book by the end of the first century (2 Tim 3:16,17). Peter already placed all of Paul's epistles alongside the Hebrew Tanakh as Scripture (2 Pet 3:15,16), and called him "our beloved brother".
And when we come right down to it, we DO NOT NEED NEW REVELATIONS since John brought all new revelations and prophecies to a close with the last book of the Bible. (Rev 22:18,19).
1stCenturyLady
Well-Known Member
But you need the word before you can have faith to act on. Vibes and imaginations are just fluff.
1stCenturyLady
Well-Known Member
Where does it say that the perfect is the letters?
8 Love never fails. But whether there are prophecies, they will fail; whether there are tongues, they will cease; whether there is knowledge, it will vanish away. 9 For we know in part and we prophesy in part. 10 But when that which is perfect has come, then that which is in part will be done away.
12 For now we see in a mirror, dimly, but then face to face. Now I know in part, but then I shall know just as I also am known.
You have the Bible, yet are full of unbelief, so it is not the Bible that makes you know God. You still see God dimly - as does everyone. But THEN when we see Christ face to face at the second coming, the end of the covenant, then that which was dim shall be full.
Haven't you ever been taught about the rules of covenant? Nothing is deleted. I read a book by a well-known Cessationist, who believed if he didn't have the gifts of the Spirit, then they just didn't exist. He was using his own pride and lack of experience as a gauge, instead of Scripture. You are twisting scripture as much as Dave is. You are looking at church history's lack of gifts during the dark ages as your proof! There is a reason it was called the DARK ages. The Day of Pentecost was the "early rain." We are in the "latter rain," just before the second coming. There is always a dry spell in between. Not that the gifts ended altogether, just not as full-blown as in the spring and fall rains.
1stCenturyLady
Well-Known Member
Just because you can't hear God's voice doesn't mean He doesn't speak. You must first have ears to hear. Your lack of faith has made you dull of hearing. That is just sad.
I don't know about the voices you hear. But God speaks to me through scripture and the witness of His Spirit. Plus scripture tells me if my heart is right I can have faith in matters yet not seen. Prophecy? No, but I can speak with certainty about what will be before I see it.
1stCenturyLady
Well-Known Member
1stCenturyLady
Well-Known Member
Tell me an example of one of your answered prayers. How do you know you are praying according to God's will?
Edit: I'm waiting...
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