How does God lead?

[amadeus]

You have no proof of their continuance unless you ignore the means of distribution.

The proof of course is in the heart of those who receive and work in the gifts. They themselves can see them and others with eyes to see also see the work of the gifts. When a person has no faith in God's gifts his negative faith makes him blind. This is the spiritual blindness of dead men. All of us were dead until we received the Life which Jesus is. With that Life comes spiritual eyesight. We see perhaps as through a glass darkly, but the eyesight of some never improves. Why is that?

 

[1stCenturyLady]

No, actually God has limited Himself to twelve apostles, and every Christian should believe it. Please note the limitation given BY GOD HIMSELF, as carved into the New Jerusalem:

And the wall of the city had twelve foundations, and in them the names of the twelve apostles of the Lamb. (Rev 21:14)

Did you notice that? THE twelve apostles of the Lamb (Judas excluded, Paul included). Very specific, very clear, very final.

To settle the matter once and for all, Jesus said this to the apostles while He was yet earth, which cannot contradict the above Scripture:

Then answered Peter and said unto him, Behold, we have forsaken all, and followed thee; what shall we have therefore? And Jesus said unto them, Verily I say unto you, That ye which have followed me, in the regeneration when the Son of man shall sit in the throne of his glory, ye also shall sit upon twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel. (Mt 19:28)

Just as there are only twelve tribes of Israel, there are only twelve apostles, one for each tribe, and one throne per apostle.

There were twelve original apostles, but Paul and Barnabas were also apostles. Plus Mathias, and that is just for starters. Apollos could also been considered an apostle.

It is we who make rules as to whom is an apostle. They were simply the missionaries of the Church. There are missionaries today.

I hope you're not one of those people (like Dave) who wants to put God in a very human size box. Sorry He won't fit.

 

[GodsGrace]

See the context from Matthew 24; the tribulation mentioned there is different from the tribulation principle in John 16: "In the world ye shall have tribulation, but be of good cheer, I have overcome the world", a wonderful promise to take hold of.

I know what the tribulation is,,,I said I don't really agree with it.
I've read about the rapture and some theologians don't agree with it and I do very much like what one said and which would agree with scripture but I won't get into it unless you care to.

What I had meant for you to explain was:

Mathew 24:12-14 Jesus said:
12“Because lawlessness is increased, most people’s love will grow cold.
13“But the one who endures to the end, he will be saved.
14“This gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in the whole world as a testimony to all the nations, and then the end will come.

Jesus might be speaking of the tribulation as you understand it,,,but does He not still say that those who endure to the end will be saved?

What does He mean by this if not that those who believe in Him till the end will be the ones who are saved? We were discussing loss of salvation.

Would this not be true of all ages??
Even Paul said the above...as to enduring, he said:

2 Timothy 4:7
7I have fought the good fight, I have finished the course, I have kept the faith;

And
Hebrews 12:1, 12-15

 

[GodsGrace]

Free will & sovereignty as simple as it gets. A kid, a carrot and a goat.

A kid has a wagon to which he attaches his goat. We know goats have a mind of their own, and if any creature has a free will, it is a goat. So the kid ties a carrot to his cane pole and dangles it in front of the goat. The goat wants the carrot so the kid steers the goat pulling the wagon according to the direction both want to go in. If the kid dangles the carrot to the right, the goat trots in that direction. If the kid wants to stop, he applies the wagon brakes. If he wants to start up again, he releases the brakes and dangles the carrot in front of the goat in the direction he and the goat now wants to travel.

So in this we see the kid’s sovereignty, the goat’s free will and its genuine desire to choose what the kid wants him to do, even though the motives differ. And the secondary causes the kid uses to steer the goat to his planned direction.

And so it is with us, God sends and controls all the secondary causes that lead us goats to freely choose the destination he planned for us.

Sorry Dave.
Your above analogy is not free will.
Please stop using that term.

Free will means it is not dictated by an outside force.
YOUR scenario is COMPLETELY dictated by an outside force.
Every move that goat makes is determinism.
Determinism is not free will but the exact opposite.

If determinism is right, then WHY are we held responisble for our sins?
Or,,,are we?
According to you?

Of course not. GOD alone decides who gets to go to heaven and the rest can go to hell for all He cares.

U: Unconditional Election

 

[Dave L]

Sorry Dave.
Your above analogy is not free will.
Please stop using that term.

Free will means it is not dictated by an outside force.
YOUR scenario is COMPLETELY dictated by an outside force.
Every move that goat makes is determinism.
Determinism is not free will but the exact opposite.

If determinism is right, then WHY are we held responisble for our sins?
Or,,,are we?
According to you?

Of course not. GOD alone decides who gets to go to heaven and the rest can go to hell for all He cares.

U: Unconditional Election

Sin would not be sin if we did not freely choose to sin. But we always freely choose what we think is best.

 

[Dave L]

The proof of course is in the heart of those who receive and work in the gifts. They themselves can see them and others with eyes to see also see the work of the gifts. When a person has no faith in God's gifts his negative faith makes him blind. This is the spiritual blindness of dead man. All of us were dead until we received the Life with Jesus is. With that Life comes spiritual eyesight. We see perhaps as through a glass darkly, but the eyesight of some never improves. Why is that?

Today's "gifts" are not genuine. If you compare what scripture teaches about the originals with today's versions, they are not the same. We can open a thread if you like and look further into this.

 

[Dave L]

You believe God is limited to just the twelve apostles. That was the start of the church, not the end.

There were more than twelve apostles. But they had to be witnesses of Christ from the beginning Acts 1:21–23. So today's phony wannabees don't cut it. But we have scripture defining the means of distribution through the hands of an apostle and through the two outpourings. But no other means mentioned. So if we force ourselves to think only what scripture presents to us, we are on safe ground.

 

[GodsGrace]

The text doesn't say "apostles", but says "disciples", which referred to "His followers." If you couple that with John 20:23 ("Go therefore and make disciples of all the nations") it would indicate that He did not mean it for just the 12, but for all people, all nations.

Where in the N.T. does the word Apostles appear?
When they were alive, the 12 were known as Disciples.
AFTER they died they became known as Apostles to distinguish them from other Disciples.

I think I already said this. You don't have to accept it.

Jesus sent the APOSTLES to make DISCIPLES of all nations.

Apostle: The sent ones.
Disciple: The student, or follower.

See here:
Apostles vs. Disciples

 

[GodsGrace]

Sticking with the question at hand (Do the scriptures say that God only reveals things to us during this New Testament era through the scriptures?) Acts 17:11 doesn't say that. However there are many scriptures that have been given here that show without question that He reveals Himself by a host of other spiritual means as well...in particular, that He promised to "pour out My spirit upon all flesh", which was then confirmed by Peter as beginning on the day of Pentecost. As such, this debate should be over, as proven by the scriptures.

The closest passage to the contrary is Romans 10:17 ("So then faith comes by hearing, and hearing by the word of God"), which does not negate the above passages of Joel and Peter, but must be reconciled with them. Thus, Paul was not contradicting the other passages, but filling in some of the mechanics of just how things come to be. But he does not say that he only meant the written word. On the contrary, Paul himself heard the written word, but also heard for Christ in spirit. Surely, he did not mean to say that his own encounter was not acceptable as our friend Dave would have it.

Scott, I think we're losing sight of what I had posted.

Acts 17:11 says that we are to test everything to see if it is scriptural.
Everything.

I had also spoken about Romans 10:17, not sure if with you.
We must believe only what the word of God says...otherwise we should also believe that Mary was taken bodily to heaven without facing death. There would be no end to what we'd have to accept.

My point is that there can be NO NEW REVELATION. Everything is revealed in the N.T. We can understand something better,,,but it cannot be a new idea, otherwise, as I've already stated,,,Muhhammad can be right and also John Smith and others.

I agree that God has other ways of revealing Himself, but they are PRIVATE and should not be disseminated amongst believers.

IOW, if someone comes on these boards and says they've seen Jesus...are we to believe that person? And what if he brings a strange message?
Some catholic saints claim to have seen Jesus and He spoke to them about purgatory...so does that mean purgatory really exists?

I'm making a simple point...no need to complicate it.

 

[GodsGrace]

Sin would not be sin if we did not freely choose to sin. But we always freely choose what we think is best.

You change your wording back and forth.
I'm having a difficult time addressing your concept of free will.

If God is holding a carrot in front of us, according to YOU...we do NOT have free will.
We do not have FREE WILL as John Calvin explains free will.

You do NOT believe in free will.
You should not use that term UNLESS you believe in libertarian free will.

 

[Dave L]

You change your wording back and forth.
I'm having a difficult time addressing your concept of free will.

If God is holding a carrot in front of us, according to YOU...we do NOT have free will.
We do not have FREE WILL as John Calvin explains free will.

You do NOT believe in free will.
You sound not use that term UNLESS you believe in libertarian free will.

I am consistent. If you agree with "Sin would not be sin if we did not freely choose to sin. But we always freely choose what we think is best." And if God works all things according to his will Ephesians 1:11. He sends the reasons we base our decisions on, thereby controlling us through our free choices.

 

[GodsGrace]

I am consistent. If you agree with "Sin would not be sin if we did not freely choose to sin. But we always freely choose what we think is best." And if God works all things according to his will Ephesians 1:11. He sends the reasons we base our decisions on, thereby controlling us through our free choices.

I'd like to address Ephesians 1:11

I'm going to start a new thread "Are we predestined to be saved"
But tomorrow...too busy today.

Ephesians 1:11 is easily explained withing the context of all other scripture.
We cannot take one verse out of context...to be continued...hope you'll join in.

I do believe this would belong in Theology. The study of God.

 

[amadeus]

Today's "gifts" are not genuine. If you compare what scripture teaches about the originals with today's versions, they are not the same. We can open a thread if you like and look further into this.

I believe you are wrong but there is no proof I could provide acceptable to someone who has made up his mind. Even God does not force people to believe what they cannot see with their own physical eyes and hear or touch with their own physical senses. If you start such a thread I will probably look into it.

 

[Dave L]

I believe you are wrong but there is no proof I could provide acceptable to someone who has made up his mind. Even God does not force people to believe what they cannot see with their own physical eyes and hear or touch with their own physical senses. If you start such a thread I will probably look into it.

I understand your position having held it once myself. But if we limit ourselves to only what scripture says before drawing conclusions, much of what Christians believe today is pure fluff.

 

[Nancy]

Only two choices, Helen: God's Way or not.

Most people have chosen the "not", but even many who seemingly have chosen God actually straddle the fence with the of being spit out of His mouth.

As to God controlling people, He does not, at least not while they still on their course in this veil of flesh. He blesses those who walk with Him, but those who do not, in addition to receiving a curse, may be used by God in their ignorance to accomplish the work of His left hand.

One thing is for certain, Satan most definitely controls people...just like puppets!!

 

[1stCenturyLady]

There were more than twelve apostles. But they had to be witnesses of Christ from the beginning Acts 1:21–23. So today's phony wannabees don't cut it. But we have scripture defining the means of distribution through the hands of an apostle and through the two outpourings. But no other means mentioned. So if we force ourselves to think only what scripture presents to us, we are on safe ground.

Paul was not a witness to the resurrection, but he was an apostle. Jesus called him to be an apostle, even though according to you he wasn't qualified. Jesus calls many to preach and spread the gospel. Even today.

 

[ScottA]

Where in the N.T. does the word Apostles appear?
When they were alive, the 12 were known as Disciples.
AFTER they died they became known as Apostles to distinguish them from other Disciples.

I think I already said this. You don't have to accept it.

Jesus sent the APOSTLES to make DISCIPLES of all nations.

Apostle: The sent ones.
Disciple: The student, or follower.

See here:
Apostles vs. Disciples

Jesus Himself did not make that distinction, nor do I.

But you make a good point: The scriptures are not just a record of everything that is correct, but also of what is not correct. For this same reason Jesus had many things against the churches, as it is written in the book of Revelation.

 

[ScottA]

Scott, I think we're losing sight of what I had posted.

Acts 17:11 says that we are to test everything to see if it is scriptural.
Everything.

I had also spoken about Romans 10:17, not sure if with you.
We must believe only what the word of God says...otherwise we should also believe that Mary was taken bodily to heaven without facing death. There would be no end to what we'd have to accept.

My point is that there can be NO NEW REVELATION. Everything is revealed in the N.T. We can understand something better,,,but it cannot be a new idea, otherwise, as I've already stated,,,Muhhammad can be right and also John Smith and others.

I agree that God has other ways of revealing Himself, but they are PRIVATE and should not be disseminated amongst believers.

IOW, if someone comes on these boards and says they've seen Jesus...are we to believe that person? And what if he brings a strange message?
Some catholic saints claim to have seen Jesus and He spoke to them about purgatory...so does that mean purgatory really exists?

I'm making a simple point...no need to complicate it.

I get your point...it's just wrong. You are limiting God to what is written. And this you do even after Jesus explained "My words are spirit."

So...your definition of what "the word of God" is, is in error - it is not limited to the "written" word.

But let me give you something to contemplate: Do the scriptures say, "Always was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God?" Or do they say, "In the beginning...?"

We both know that the scriptures say "In the beginning." Why then do you say "Everything is revealed in the N.T." when the N.T. is only written and not "spirit" - which is the End?"

 

[Dave L]

Paul was not a witness to the resurrection, but he was an apostle. Jesus called him to be an apostle, even though according to you he wasn't qualified. Jesus calls many to preach and spread the gospel. Even today.

Jesus spoke to Paul directly on the road to Damascus. = Paul was an eye witness to his resurrection.

 

[1stCenturyLady]

Jesus spoke to Paul directly on the road to Damascus. = Paul was an eye witness to his resurrection.

Jesus speaks directly to us through the gifts of the Holy Spirit.