How Free Will Destroys the Gospel

[Nancy]

"Only the self-righteous would accept it. Hard core sinners who only grace can save will not." Is there scripture to back this?

...Would you refuse the Gift of God??

 

[Nancy]

Sorry; what does "it", refer to here? :

Hi @farouk, "It" is referring to the FREE unmerited GIFT of salvation. David believes that to "accept" that awesome gift from the Lord Almighty is considered "works".

 

[farouk]

Hi @farouk, "It" is referring to the FREE unmerited GIFT of salvation. David believes that to "accept" that awesome gift from the Lord Almighty is considered "works".

Does he? I didn't pick that up.

Thanks for the response.

 

[logabe]

logabe,

So you don't know what 'helkuw' means? You are throwing the word around and now admit that you 'don't even know what it is'. Does't sound like you're interested in knowing either.

I will only use 'will draw' as the English meaning if that is what the Greek text of the first person, nominative case, indicative mood, future tense of helkusw means.

Please take the effort to do the exegesis of that word so you know exactly what Jesus meant.

Oz

Is this good enough?

Strong's #1670: helkuo (pronounced hel-koo'-o)
or helko hel'-ko; probably akin to 138; to drag (literally or figuratively):--draw. Compare 1667.

Thayer's Greek Lexicon:

helkuō / helkō

1) to draw, drag off

2) metaphorically, to draw by inward power, lead, impel

Correct me if I am wrong, but the point is, because Jesus hung on the cross His purpose was to conquer the whole earth by the power of His Love. Eventually all of his enemies will be put under his feet through reconciliation as Paul tells us in Colossians 1:20.

20 and through Him to reconcile all things to Himself, having made peace through the blood of His cross; through Him, I say, whether things on earth or things in heaven.

and 1st Corinthians 15:28 says,

28 When all things are subjected to Him, then the Son Himself also will be subjected to the One who subjected all things to Him, so that God may be all in all.

 

[Dave L]

"Only the self-righteous would accept it. Hard core sinners who only grace can save will not." Is there scripture to back this?

“What then? are we better than they? No, in no wise: for we have before proved both Jews and Gentiles, that they are all under sin; As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one: There is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God.” (Romans 3:9–11) (KJV 1900)

You can look at your faith as evidence Jesus paid for your sins on the cross. Had he not, you could not believe.

 

[Dave L]

Dave,

When you won't admit you used ridicule against the person, the Appeal to Ridicule Logical Fallacy, you do exactly what that Fallacy states you do,

Appeal to ridicule is a fallacy that attempts to make a claim look ridiculous by mocking it or exaggerating it in a negative way. Appeal to ridicule often uses sarcasm to make an argument look ridiculous (source).​

Here is how you ridicule me:

• 'You will naturally believe my reasoning is flawed because of your starting point....'
• 'If you run your roots a little deeper....'

Ridicule makes your argument look and be ridiculous.

Oz

I'm only saying we must dig deeper sometimes to uncover the truth.

 

[Dave L]

Faith is a fruit of the Holy Spirit. Abraham believed as did all listed in Hebrews 11. Paradise?
“He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches; To him that overcometh will I give to eat of the tree of life, which is in the midst of the paradise of God.” (Revelation 2:7) (KJV 1900)

“How that he was caught up into paradise, and heard unspeakable words, which it is not lawful for a man to utter.” (2 Corinthians 12:4) (KJV 1900)

 

[Dave L]

No sinner who does not repent in faith will by grace be saved.

The Bible makes it clear. Even one sin condemns.

So this hard-core sinner statement does not fly.

Degrees of sin only count at the white throne judgment for degrees of punishment.

Repentance is a gift included in salvation.

“Him hath God exalted with his right hand to be a Prince and a Saviour, for to give repentance to Israel, and forgiveness of sins.” (Acts 5:31) (KJV 1900)

“In meekness instructing those that oppose themselves; if God peradventure will give them repentance to the acknowledging of the truth;” (2 Timothy 2:25) (KJV 1900)

“The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.” (2 Peter 3:9) (KJV 1900)

“For the gifts and the call of God are irrevocable.” (Romans 11:29) (NET)

 

[Nancy]

Faith is a fruit of the Holy Spirit. Abraham believed as did all listed in Hebrews 11. Paradise?
“He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches; To him that overcometh will I give to eat of the tree of life, which is in the midst of the paradise of God.” (Revelation 2:7) (KJV 1900)

“How that he was caught up into paradise, and heard unspeakable words, which it is not lawful for a man to utter.” (2 Corinthians 12:4) (KJV 1900)

faith·ful·ness <--- Is the fruit of the Holy Spirit
/ˈfāTHfəlnəs/
noun1.the quality of being faithful; fidelity:"faithfulness in marriage"synonyms:fidelity, loyalty, constancy, devotion, trueness, ... more

Definition of faith
(Entry 1 of 2)

1a: allegiance to duty or a person : LOYALTYlost faith in the company's president

b(1): fidelity to one's promises

(2): sincerity of intentions acted in good faith

2a(1): belief and trust in and loyalty to God

(2): belief in the traditional doctrines of a religion

b(1): firm belief in something for which there is no proofclinging to the faith that her missing son would one day return

(2): complete trust

3: something that is believed especially with strong convictionespecially : a system of religious beliefs

You seem to think they are the same and they are not.

 

[Dave L]

faith·ful·ness <--- Is the fruit of the Holy Spirit
/ˈfāTHfəlnəs/
noun1.the quality of being faithful; fidelity:"faithfulness in marriage"synonyms:fidelity, loyalty, constancy, devotion, trueness, ... more

Definition of faith
(Entry 1 of 2)

1a: allegiance to duty or a person : LOYALTYlost faith in the company's president

b(1): fidelity to one's promises

(2): sincerity of intentions acted in good faith

2a(1): belief and trust in and loyalty to God

(2): belief in the traditional doctrines of a religion

b(1): firm belief in something for which there is no proofclinging to the faith that her missing son would one day return

(2): complete trust

3: something that is believed especially with strong convictionespecially : a system of religious beliefs

You seem to think they are the same and they are not.

“But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith,” (Galatians 5:22) (KJV 1900)
“But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness,” (Galatians 5:22) (NET)

 

[CoreIssue]

Repentance is a gift included in salvation.

“Him hath God exalted with his right hand to be a Prince and a Saviour, for to give repentance to Israel, and forgiveness of sins.” (Acts 5:31) (KJV 1900)

“In meekness instructing those that oppose themselves; if God peradventure will give them repentance to the acknowledging of the truth;” (2 Timothy 2:25) (KJV 1900)

“The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.” (2 Peter 3:9) (KJV 1900)

“For the gifts and the call of God are irrevocable.” (Romans 11:29) (NET)

Very Calvin of you.

And the good old KJV again.

Acts 5:31 New International Version (NIV)
31 God exalted him to his own right hand as Prince and Savior that he might bring Israel to repentance and forgive their sins.

Bringing someone to do something is very different than giving it to them. Bringing is the option of acceptance but giving has no option.

2 Timothy 2:25 New International Version (NIV)
25 Opponents must be gently instructed, in the hope that God will grant them repentance leading them to a knowledge of the truth,

Giving knowledge of repentance is different from giving repentance. Yet again the KJV removes free will.

 

[Dave L]

Very Calvin of you.

And the good old KJV again.

Acts 5:31 New International Version (NIV)
31 God exalted him to his own right hand as Prince and Savior that he might bring Israel to repentance and forgive their sins.

Bringing someone to do something is very different than giving it to them. Bringing is the option of acceptance but giving has no option.

2 Timothy 2:25 New International Version (NIV)
25 Opponents must be gently instructed, in the hope that God will grant them repentance leading them to a knowledge of the truth,

Giving knowledge of repentance is different from giving repentance. Yet again the KJV removes free will.

“For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of his good pleasure.” (Philippians 2:13) (KJV 1900)

 

[CoreIssue]

“For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of his good pleasure.” (Philippians 2:13) (KJV 1900)

But it does not the fine what his good pleasure is.

Going by the rest of the Bible's pleasure is to give us every opportunity to repent so that those who refuse have no excuse on Judgment Day.

You make it sound like his pleasure is to pick some for salvation and some for damnation.

Again, Calvinism.

 

[Dave L]

But it does not the fine what his good pleasure is.

Going by the rest of the Bible's pleasure is to give us every opportunity to repent so that those who refuse have no excuse on Judgment Day.

You make it sound like his pleasure is to pick some for salvation and some for damnation.

Again, Calvinism.

I'm not Calvinist. He does not agree with the major point of my belief system. But salvation is a gift from start to finish and this includes repentance.

 

[CoreIssue]

I'm not Calvinist. He does not agree with the major point of my belief system. But salvation is a gift from start to finish and this includes repentance.

So there is no free will in repentance?

 

[Dave L]

So there is no free will in repentance?

If you are born again, you will crave repentance and escape from the bondage of sin.

 

[CoreIssue]

If you are born again, you will crave repentance and escape from the bondage of sin.

You cannot be born again unless you repent first. So again the issue of free will that you are denying which is Calvinism.

 

[Dave L]

You cannot be born again unless you repent first. So again the issue of free will that you are denying which is Calvinism.

No, you cannot believe unless first born again.
“But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.” (1 Corinthians 2:14) (KJV 1900)

 

[CoreIssue]

No, you cannot believe unless first born again.
“But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.” (1 Corinthians 2:14) (KJV 1900)

Yep, Calvinism.

That says nothing about being able to believe or repent.

The desire for God is in this from birth.

We do not have to understand with clarity to know he is there and we need him.

 

[CoreIssue]

If you are born again, you will crave repentance and escape from the bondage of sin.

You dodging.

You're saying there is no free will and a sinner to repent.