How is the PreTrib Rapture not make God a liar?

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Enoch111

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Wish to add?What did I add?
Here is what you said: How can it happen at anytime,when Christ told us everything that would happen before His return?

This was with reference to the Rapture, which is imminent (can happen at any time). And since the second coming of Christ is long after the Rapture OF COURSE it is "any time before His return". That is already a given, but you made an issue out of it.
 

n2thelight

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There are verses that seem at first to war with one another. On the one hand, we are told He will come suddenly, when least expected, life going on as normal like in the days of Noah.

And yet, the terrible things about to come on the earth during that time of testing, before He returns, would preclude life going on as normal. Who would have weddings and feasts through famine and a lack of potable water and such miseries as are de scribed for that seven years?

Also, how does He come when least expected if it clearly shows all that will happen before His return so that you most definitely WOULD be expecting Him?

The verses cannot fit the same timeframe or event. They cant.

just as they didn't know Jesus would come a second time and so tried to cram all prophecy together, asking Him, will you at this time restore the kingdom to Israel? - I think we try to cram them all together too.

My point was that He cannot return at anytime ie,imminent ,that can't happen

Here are some examples.



Peter Knew that He Would Die before Jesus Returned



Verily, verily, I say unto thee, When thou wast young, thou girdedst thyself, and walkedst whither thou wouldest: but when thou shalt be old, thou shalt stretch forth thy hands, and another shall gird thee, and carry thee whither thou wouldest not. This spake he, signifying by what death he should glorify God. And when he had spoken this, he saith unto him, Follow me. (John 21:18-19)

Knowing that shortly I must put off this my tabernacle, even as our Lord Jesus Christ hath shewed me. (2 Peter 1:14)

Imagine that we had the opportunity to talk with the Apostle Peter after Jesus had died, arisen from the dead, and ascended into heaven. Remember, Peter had been very close to Jesus. He was obviously very familiar with what Jesus said in chapters 24 and 25 of the Gospel of Matthew. But, in spite of those words of Jesus, if you had asked Peter, “Peter, do you think Jesus might return today?” Peter would have replied, “No. Not today. Because He showed me by what kind of death I should glorify him, when I am old. He will not return in my lifetime.” (Then, I suspect, Peter would have given us the explanation of the passages that may seem to teach imminency that you will read in this paper!)


Paul Knew that He Would Go to Rome before Jesus Returned



And he said unto me, Depart: for I will send thee far hence unto the Gentiles. (Acts 22:21)

And the night following the Lord stood by him, and said, Be of good cheer, Paul: for as thou hast testified of me in Jerusalem, so must thou bear witness also at Rome. (Acts 23:11)



If we had asked Paul before he went to Rome if he thought Jesus would return today, Paul would have said, “No. Not today. He has showed me that I must first go to Rome to bear witness of Him.”



The Early Church Knew that They Must Take the Gospel to the World before Jesus Returned



But ye shall receive power, after that the Holy Ghost is come upon you: and ye shall be witnesses unto me both in Jerusalem, and in all Judaea, and in Samaria, and unto the uttermost part of the earth (Acts 1:8)


If you had asked a Christian shortly after Jesus ascended into heaven if he or she was familiar with what Jesus had said that is recorded for us in Matthew chapters 24 and 25, they would almost certainly have said, “Of course!” If you had followed that up by saying, “Then you believe that Jesus could return today, right?” They would have said, “No. Not today. He told us that we must take the gospel to the uttermost part of the earth first!”



Jesus Taught His Disciples Not to Expect His Imminent Return



And as they heard these things, he added and spake a parable, because he was nigh to Jerusalem, and because they thought that the kingdom of God should immediately appear. He said therefore, A certain nobleman went into a far country to receive for himself a kingdom, and to return. And he called his ten servants, and delivered them ten pounds, and said unto them, Occupy till I come. But his citizens hated him, and sent a message after him, saying, We will not have this man to reign over us. And it came to pass, that when he was returned, having received the kingdom, then he commanded these servants to be called unto him, to whom he had given the money, that he might know how much every man had gained by trading. (Luke 19:11-15)


While the bridegroom tarried, they all slumbered and slept... After a long time the lord of those servants cometh, and reckoneth with them. (Matthew 25:5, 19)

These disciples believed (and hoped) that Jesus was soon going to set up His kingdom on the earth. In Luke 19, Jesus corrects them. He compares Himself to a nobleman that went into a “far country” and gave instructions to “occupy” until he returned. He proceeds to remind them that they will have responsibilities to fulfill in terms of stewardship before He returns. In fact, inspired by the Holy Spirit, Luke tells us that the very reason Jesus taught this parable was because some people “thought that the kingdom of God should immediately appear.”

And even in Matthew 25 Jesus compares His coming to that of a bridegroom who “tarries” and who returns “after a long time.” He did not intend for them (or us) to expect an imminent return, but instead to plan on an extended time of serving Him on earth before His return.



Christians in Thessalonica Erred in Assuming the Return of Christ was Imminent



Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him, That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand. Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition; Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God. Remember ye not, that, when I was yet with you, I told you these things? (2 Thessalonians 2:1-5)

Some of the Thessalonian Christians had evidently become focused on the possibility that they were already far into the tribulation and that Jesus could return soon. It is reasonable for a suffering church to think that perhaps they are going through the last great tribulation. And certainly the Thessalonians were a suffering church (1 Thessalonians 2:14; 3:4; 2 Thessalonians 1:4-6). But Paul, inspired by the Holy Spirit, knew that they were being premature. He wanted them to learn to “stand fast” (2 Thessalonians 2:15) and to be “established in good words and works” (2 Thessalonians 2:17). He knew that they had work to do before the Lord returned. So he reminded them that there were some things that would occur before the Lord returned (viz., the revelation of the Antichrist and the great apostasy).

If the return of Christ were considered to be imminent, Paul would surely have reminded them that they and he would be raptured before the events described in these verses occurred.
 

stunnedbygrace

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You have written a good paper there, but I don't find it logical.

Yes, Peter and Paul were told about their deaths. It does not immediately follow, (logically) that Jesus would not return after their deaths.

Another man was told he would not die before he saw our salvation come so he was walking around the temple waiting for: to us a child is born. So if men are told what will happen before they die, it will happen as told. That's all your article has really shown.

As for the parable, wanting them to know if wouldn't be the next day does not mean it will never arrive.

As for the thessalonicans, if they were convinced the gathering had already occurred and were distressed they were still there, it shows they DID think He could come soon, not that they DIDN'T think it. And pau l calms them down by saying, remember I told you that you would see the man of perdition come first? Does seeing the man of perdition come first mean that a gathering can't occur days after? Perhaps 10 days after?
 

Ac28

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The #1 reason that Christ's return is not imminent is because He said He would not return until Israel accepted Him
Matthew 23:39
For I say unto you, Ye shall not see me henceforth, till ye shall say, Blessed is he that cometh in the name of the Lord.

This is backed up by Peter
Acts 3:19-20
19 Repent ye therefore, and be converted, that your sins may be blotted out, when the times of refreshing shall come from the presence of the Lord.
20 And he shall send Jesus Christ, which before was preached unto you:

In Chronological order, the estimated years before Christ's return.:

Present Dispensation - 45 years
Since Israel were set aside in about 63AD and, therefore, are not God's people today, Hosea 1:9 , it is impossible that Christ will return until this 2000 year all-Gentile period is over, which, if this period lasts exactly 2000 years, will be in about 2063, 45 years from now.

Elijah's Restoration - ? years
At the end of this present period, at the Appearing, the present day church is translated into the uncreated Heaven of Heavens, the Holy of Holies, where Christ sits at the right hand of God, Ephesians 1:20 and Ephesians 2:6 . After that, Elijah will come to restore ALL things. How long that will take is unknown, but we know that Christ won't return during that time

Kingdom of Heaven (Day of Christ) - 9 to 700 years
Some Bible Believers believe that Israel's earthly Kingdom will occur before and be separate from the millennium. I also believe that. Christ will rule this earthly Kingdom from heaven, so Christ still won't return during that time. Some people think this kingdom will only last as little as 9 years and others, as long as 700 years.

Tribulation - 7 years
His return is at the end of the tribulation, at the 7th trump of Revelation, when the Israel elites and those few Gentiles from Acts, are raptured - another 7 years.

Once Christ returns, the Millennium (Day of the Lord) should start quickly, with Christ ruling from here on the earth, with an iron rod.
 
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Jay Ross

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Hello

We know from the Parable of the Fig Tree in Matthew 24:32 that from 1948 there will be around 90-98 years until the end of this present age where one of the obvious signs will be the Armageddon event.

Then there will be a 1,000 year period of peace until the Bottomless pit is unlocked and Satan and his cohort angels etc are released for a little while period until the time of the GWTJ occurs. At around this point in time the Millennium Age will end and the age of Eternity will commence.

From our perspective, today, that is still in our distant future.

Shalom
 

Ac28

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Hello

We know from the Parable of the Fig Tree in Matthew 24:32 that from 1948 there will be around 90-98 years until the end of this present age where one of the obvious signs will be the Armageddon event.

Then there will be a 1,000 year period of peace until the Bottomless pit is unlocked and Satan and his cohort angels etc are released for a little while period until the time of the GWTJ occurs. At around this point in time the Millennium Age will end and the age of Eternity will commence.

From our perspective, today, that is still in our distant future.

Shalom
1948 is meaningless, because Israel was set aside as a nation in Acts of the Apostles 28:25-28, about 63AD. Israel has not been God's People, as in Hosea 1:9 , since then. It seems they will be back, though, after 2 days, Hosea 6:2 . If that 2 days is 2000 years, and it most likely is, they'll be back in about 2063. Since all OT prophecy involves Israel, and since there is no Israel, it is impossible that any OT prophecy has been fulfilled in the last 1955 years. Therefore, Israel becoming a nation in 1948 was 100% man-made and had nothing to do with God. The interpretation you gave Mt 24:32 is possibly the most iffy interpretation I've ever seen. It was based on an untruth about the secular state of Israel.

The Millennium will be a forced peace when Christ rules with a rod of iron. The slightest infraction can result in death, like what happened to Ananias and Sapphira. The bodies will then be tossed into Gehenna, the Valley of Hinnom, the trash pit outside of Jerusalem that will again be ever-burning, like it was in the 1st century, see Isaiah 66:24 . What the fires don't burn, the worms will eat.
 
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Jay Ross

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1948 is meaningless, because Israel was set aside as a nation in Acts of the Apostles 28:25-28, about 63AD. Israel has not been God's People, as in Hosea 1:9 , since then. It seems they will be back, though, after 2 days, Hosea 6:2 . If that 2 days is 2000 years, and it most likely is, they'll be back in about 2063. Since all OT prophecy involves Israel, and since there is no Israel, it is impossible that any OT prophecy has been fulfilled in the last 1955 years. Therefore, Israel becoming a nation in 1948 was 100% man-made and had nothing to do with God. The interpretation you gave Mt 24:32 is possibly the most iffy interpretation I've ever seen. It was based on an untruth about the secular state of Israel.

The Millennium will be a forced peace when Christ rules with a rod of iron. The slightest infraction can result in death, like what happened to Ananias and Sapphira. The bodies will then be tossed into Gehenna, the Valley of Hinnom, the trash pit outside of Jerusalem that will again be ever-burning, like it was in the 1st century, see Isaiah 66:24 . What the fires don't burn, the worms will eat.

Wow. I see that you have a strange understanding of these present times based on your answer. Genesis 15:16 tells us that some of Abraham's descendants will return to the land of Canaan in their own strength in the fourth age of their existence where wə·ḏō·w H-1755 is best understood to have the meaning of and "age" where an age is a little longer than 1,000 solar years in duration. Abraham's descendants returned to the land exactly 4,000 years after the birth of Isaac, in the year 2052 BC based on the Biblical Chronical of the Old Testament.

Your next claim is that Christ will rule the Millennium Age with a rod of iron, but the dominion that He will be Given at the beginning of the next age is that all the peoples of the earth should worship him. So if they don't they are still adhering to the context of the dominion that He will be given in that they have chosen not to worship Him, and this choice will not result in death as you have suggested in the quote post above of your post.

Now, when did the iniquities of the Israelite begin to visit their children and their children's children? Was it 4 BC, at the end of the second age of their continual idolatrous worship, or was it much later? Oh, and the visitation of their iniquities upon the nation of Israel had nothing to do with their rejection of Christ as their saving Messiah during His first advent. You will have to do better than that, if you want to be believed.

Shalom
 

Taken

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Those who preach a PreTrib Rapture say the rapture is imminent; that it could happen at any time. And, that being raptured is a great hope of all Christians.

Anyone can be a follower of Christ's teachings and call themselves a Christian.

I would clarify and say; a saved and born again Christian EXPECTS the Lord to call His Church up to Him.

If there's a pretrib rapture, God has known before the beginning of the world what day it'll be. God knew there wouldn't be a rapture for the past 2000 years.

Of course. He also knew how many more would be born in sin, and become converted or not.

He knew everyone for the past 2000 years would die.

Yes. And mankind has been informed, EVERYONE who has lived naturally, SHALL die.

Yet, Pretribbers insist the Bible teaches us, and all those who have died, to hope to be raptured. People who hoped for the rapture, but have died,

had a false hope.

Huh? I have never heard a "pretribber" make that claim.

Can you quote one person who believes in pretribulation....making that claim?

If the Bible teaches an imminent rapture, hasn't every passed generation been lied to by God? It wasn't imminent. It was a false hope. It is a lie.

You are making a concluding statement.... supposedly based on a "pretribbers claim"....

But you have NOT shown any "Pretribber" making that claim.

Glory to God,
Taken
 

Taken

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The Bible doesn't teach a pre-trib rapture.

Disagree.

There are not 2 second second Comings Comings.

Redundant.

There is One Event called the second coming.

The second Coming

Correct.

and, thus, the rapture, occur at the end of the tribulation,

Disagree.

at the 7th trump of Revelation, and the resurrected Saints go out to meet Christ in the air and then retun to earth with Him, just like the Bible says.

What Scripture teaches IS: (1)
All are naturally born bodies from Dust, are born in Sin, its natural life IS its Blood, and "IF", while that natural body IS alive, that body "chooses" to "heartfully" believe in God, to the end of his natural life....he Shall be saved.

What Scripture teaches IS: (2)
"IF" any natural born man, believes IN God "AND" IN Jesus, that He is the Christ, "AND" confesses Belief in Christ Jesus...he Shall Be Converted..."RECEIVE his Salvation and Born Again spirit"...." At the Time of his heartfelt confession."

Notice the Difference?
Group (1) ;
has not accepted Jesus as thee Christ Savior.
They continue showing their faithfullness toward God, by their own power to be obedient TO THE LAW.

Group (2)
has accepted Christ Jesus as their Savior.
They become SavED, born again, Prepared, for an Unknown day, that Jesus, (with Power, which IS Christ) Shall Call "them" up To Him.
This group IS called "Christ's Church".
This group IS KEPT faithful TO GOD, TO CHRIST, "BY" the indwelling POWER of God.

The Rapture IS about Christ's Church.
The Rapture IS about Christ Claiming and Taking unto Himself what IS His TO Take...
His Church.

WHEN (the day) Christ will take His Church IS secret.
WHEN (the signs) Christ will take His Church IS revealed.
....after certain prophecy is fulfilled
....Jesus with power Descends "From" Heaven; "TO" the Clouds.
....Before Gods Wrath upon the Earth commences

WHO is called up TO Jesus? His Church.
WHo does the calling? Jesus.
Who hears Jesus' Voice? His Church.
Who rises up in Glorified bodies? His Church.

Who IS left behind?
Israel and others who were not believers IN God or Jesus and fallen angels.

Gods Wrath commences upon the Earth, in sequences of severity; and in combination of Finishing the Separation of PEOPLE still ALIVE in their FLESH, choosing God, or standing AGAINST God.

(1) SEALS (2) TRUMPETS (3) BOWLS

Christ Jesus HAS NOT YET made His SECOND COMING "TO" EARTH.

As it is in the case of at least half of the stuff we're taught in the denominational churches, the rapture is 100% all-Israel

No. The RAPTURE IS about Christ Jesus Claiming and Taking "HIS CHURCH", UP TO THE CLOUDS, ABOVE the face of the Earth, as the EARTH becomes "subject TO".... the events to unfold....called;
Opening of the Seals.
Notice given by way of Trumpets.
Pouring out of the Bowls.

The First....( generally called Israel)
(Being those) faithful to God, (in the last days), shall be last, (risen up).

The Last...(generally called Gentiles)
(Being those) faithful to God & Jesus, (in the last days), shall be first. (Risen up).

Generally called? Yes.
Because some Gentiles "convert" to Judaism, and become subject TO what affects the Jews.
Because some Jews "become Converted IN Christ", and become subject TO what affects those IN Christ and His Church.

God Bless,
Taken
 

CoreIssue

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Just a quick note and I'm out.

Only the father knows when Christ will come in the rapture. He comes invisible in the clouds.

Seven years later is the second coming of Christ to the earth to rule. He comes completely visibly and at the head of an army.

I'm not reposting material from my website.
 
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n2thelight

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II Thessalonians 2:1 "Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him,"

What's the subject of the above verse?
 

Taken

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II Thessalonians 2:1 "Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him,"

What's the subject of the above verse?

I would say the Subject is a specific group of people Who have accepted Jesus as their Lord and Savior and Christ Messiah sent from God, and the revealing That That group is gathered together With and saved unto Christ the Lord Jesus.

God Bless,
Taken
 

Ac28

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Wow. I see that you have a strange understanding of these present times based on your answer. Genesis 15:16 tells us that some of Abraham's descendants will return to the land of Canaan in their own strength in the fourth age of their existence where wə·ḏō·w H-1755 is best understood to have the meaning of and "age" where an age is a little longer than 1,000 solar years in duration. Abraham's descendants returned to the land exactly 4,000 years after the birth of Isaac, in the year 2052 BC based on the Biblical Chronical of the Old Testament.

Your next claim is that Christ will rule the Millennium Age with a rod of iron, but the dominion that He will be Given at the beginning of the next age is that all the peoples of the earth should worship him. So if they don't they are still adhering to the context of the dominion that He will be given in that they have chosen not to worship Him, and this choice will not result in death as you have suggested in the quote post above of your post.

Now, when did the iniquities of the Israelite begin to visit their children and their children's children? Was it 4 BC, at the end of the second age of their continual idolatrous worship, or was it much later? Oh, and the visitation of their iniquities upon the nation of Israel had nothing to do with their rejection of Christ as their saving Messiah during His first advent. You will have to do better than that, if you want to be believed.

Shalom
My understanding is strange to you because you obviously don't see the truth that all I have said is scriptural. In you want to really see "strange", examine your own post objectively. I see nothing in your post that applies to anything TO or ABOUT today's all-Gentile church, as found ONLY in Paul's 7 post-Acts epistles. Since EVERYTHING in these epistles has been hid in God since the world began Ephesians 3:9 , Colossians 1:26 , it is not possible that anything in those other 59 books is TO us or ABOUT us today, except Christ, of course.

In the Millennium, those that don't worship Christ, after the resurrected 12 have done the Great Commission, which only the 12 were ever commanded to do, will be struck dead and then thrown into the ever-burning trash pit, Gehenna, Isaiah 66:24
 
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Jay Ross

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My understanding is strange to you because you obviously don't see the truth that all I have said is scriptural. In you want to really see "strange", examine your own post objectively. I see nothing in your post that applies to anything TO or ABOUT today's all-Gentile church, as found ONLY in Paul's 7 post-Acts epistles. Since EVERYTHING in these epistles has been hid in God since the world began Ephesians 3:9 , Colossians 1:26 , it is not possible that anything in those other 59 books is TO us or ABOUT us today, except Christ, of course.

In the Millennium, those that don't worship Christ, after the resurrected 12 have done the Great Commission, which only the 12 were ever commanded to do, will be struck dead and then thrown into the ever-burning trash pit, Gehenna, Isaiah 66:24

How can a humble servant convince, one who is so "wise" with "God's truth," through the use of His word.
 

teamventure

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Actually, the word "imminent" does mean guaranteed to happen soon. If it doesn't happen soon, it's not imminent. If someone tells you something is imminent, and he knows its not soon, he's a liar. The god of pretribbers is a liar.
That argument can be shot down with one verse. Do you remember the word says in Revelation he is coming soon?
 

Taken

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Those who preach a PreTrib Rapture say the rapture is imminent;

I think we can agree; It is dangerous ground to "put on God" Lies.

When a "man" speaks of;
Pre-trib
Mid-trib
Post-trib

What Really is "that" man "speaking of" ?

The answer IS; "THAT" man is speaking of "what" APPLIES TO himself, and others "who" are his "brethren".

The term "brethren" has multiple applications.
Jews are all brethren.
Gentiles are all brethren.
Natural siblings are all brethren.
Adopted children are brethren with their siblings.
Those accepting of God, are all brethren.
Those accepting of Jesus the Christ, are all brethren.
Those who reject God and Jesus are all brethren.

The Lord is the "REDEEMER".
What does a "Redeemer" do?
Answer; A "Redeemer" CLAIMS what Belongs to Him, to Claim.

All men, even those not yet born, have opportunity to HEAR the Word of thee Lord God, TO Learn ABOUT Him.

It is the naturally born men, who grow and decide IF, they want to hear, HOW MUCH, they want to hear, WHAT they will believe, WHAT they will Confess to believing, and WHO shall be their brethren.

Not a secret, Hebrews/Jews were chosen and agreed to Be Gods "listener", "doer", "keeper" and "mouthpiece" on the Earth, among men on Earth....OF Gods word.

Not a secret, The Hebrews/Jews historically stayed within their own (families/tribes).

Not a secret, Hebrews/Jews spread out, mixed with Gentiles, some took on Gentile ways, beliefs, cultures, and their own ways were set aside.

Not a secret, Jesus came to speak to the Jews, to repeat, to remind, to restore their foundation in God, while introducing Himself having come forth out from God, as a sinless, truthful, servant of God; To fulfill, accomplish, reveal, teach, example....

Not a secret, Jesus chose THEE most Unlikely man, THEE most Qualified man....and THEE most Willing man.....TO Be a Servant on behalf of the Lord; TO the Gentiles.

Only YOU, as every Individual man KNOWS where he FITS in, Gods BIG Picture.

Are you a Jew, WHO believes in God, In His word....BUT does not believe Jesus is the Christ?

Are you a Jew, WHO has completely Rejected God and Christ and Jewish customs and traditions and teachings?

Are you a Jew, WHO believes in God, In His word....AND that Gods Word IS Jesus the Christ who came in the Flesh?
(They call themselves Christians? No. They call themselves Messianic Jews)

Are you a Gentile, WHO believes in God, In His word....But do not believe Jesus IS the Christ? Do you try to obey Mosaic Laws, given the Hebrews/Jews, but NOT given the Gentiles?

Are you a Gentile, WHO believes in God, In His word...AND believes Jesus is the Word of God having come in the Flesh, thee Lord Christ?
(If so, you and others MIGHT call you a Christian).

Are you a Gentile, WHO believes in God, In His word....AND believes Jesus is the Word of God having come in the Flesh, thee Lord Christ.....AND Confessed your belief?
(If so, you ARE rightly called A Saved and Born Again Christian).

Point being; This World "as it is, full of corruption"....SHALL come to an END.

This WORLD; the Earth, the Seas, the Air/Atmospher.....SHALL experience A renewing.....AND that has to do expressly with the "habitaTION".
(The habitaTION has already experienced ~ Cleansing (ie the flood).
The habitaTION shall experience-
Purification (ie Fire).

The "inhabitants" of the Earth, the Seas, the Air SHALL experience.....DIVISION.

The DIVISION, IS taught in Scripture.
And that brings an "individual" back "to"...
What the individual "CHOOSES", will determine, WHAT "applies" to that individual.

A man WHO has "chosen" AND "confessed" his Belief IN God, IN Christ Jesus IS ALREADY DIVIDED, and IS NOT "subject to" Gods Wrath.

1 Thes 5:9
For God hath NOT appointed us to wrath...

Gods Wrath upon that mans habitat, IS NOT appointed for those who have Confessed, to suffer.....and WHY Pre-trib, APPLIES to such men.
They are ALREADY Christ's Church, saved, born again,
The term RAPTURE specifically Applies to Lords ACTION of Redeeming (CLAIMING AND TAKING) of these specific men.
And specifically Where DOES Christ's Church go...? In the air, above the face of the earth, out of the Way of suffering Gods Wrath upon the earth.
And in what manner DO THEY GO?
WHOLE...
body glorified, soul restored, spirit born again.

1 Pet 5:10
"After ye have suffered a while"

Gods Wrath upon that mans habitat, IS speaking to a man WHO believes in God, WAS
Taught, called, to ALSO believe IN Jesus being the Word of God in the Flesh, (but yet rejected believing Jesus is the Christ)...
THEY are subject to; awhile of suffering.
THEY experience the beginning of the Tribulation.
THEY WHO, during the first part of the Tribulation, REJECT, confession TO "god of this world"....AND ACCEPT and Confess Belief in God AND Thee Christ Lord Jesus....
Have fulfilled, their "little while" suffering and their body's shall die, and their souls SHALL be saved and Go to be with God.
THIS is a MID-Trib redeeming, of Gods ACTION, for those WHO accepted God, and Later Accepted Jesus is the Christ.
WHEN specifically does this occur?
Rev:6: 9 -10 - 11
And specifically where DO they go?
Body dead upon the earth, rotting.
Soul restored, saved, goes before Gods throne in Heaven.
Rev 7: 14 - 15

And what about Post-tribulation?
AFTER the dividing of THOSE IN Christ BEFORE the Tribulation...
(..Christ's Church, Separated from all others)

AFTER the dividing of THOSE WHO Come to Christ DURING the first part of the Tribulation..
(...Jews, (and others), who believed in God, but not Jesus is the Christ)

AFTER the dividing of THOSE ...
PEOPLE Against God, Against Christ,
And
Fallen SPIRITS Against God, Against Christ...
Are Removed from the SURFACE of the EARTH, the seas, the atmosphere/air)...
(Being sent to and held in waiting in the center of the earth)...

THERE IS a remainer of Mortal men upon the earth....who believes IN God...who Never made a Confession, to Either God or Satan...
And THEY, those mortals SHALL for 1,000 years, generation after generation, populate the earth. Live, die, without influence of fallen Angels....and with the option to be influenced by the Word of God Himself, (sitting in His Kingdom ON Earth.)...and influence of Christ's Servants (ie His Church).

During and After the 1,000 years, THOSE mortals will be DECIDING, just as all men have....WHAT they will believe, and WHAT they will or will not Confess TO.

THOSE WHO, during the 1,000 .... WHO accept God, accept Christ thee Lord....SHALL ALSO be "CLAIMED".... ie the action of thee Lord God, REDEEMING, TAKING THEM, unto Himself.

Thee Lord God IS the REDEEMER.
When He REDEEMS a man....IS the Lord God Himself , CLAIMING that man.
The WHEN, any particular man IS Claimed,
is expressly dependant upon WHAT and WHEN the man HAS CONFESSED TO believing,

Thee Endtime Tribulation SHALL Happen.
WHO and HOW and WHY the Tribulation SHALL or SHALL not affect individual men...
IS clearly revealed to men IN the written word of God.

Is the rapture of Christ's Church "imminent"?

Imminent meaning...like in 15 minutes, one hour, this month, before next year?

A person who reads, has learned, trusts Scripture, would not Consider implying "imminent" applies to a TIMEFRAME....

WHY? Because the TIMEFRAME, is already foretold....MEN will not know....It's a surprise!

The rapture of Christ's Chruch shall be QUICK.
When the Lord Calls up His Church TO HIM, in the air, above the face of the earth...
It is NOT a long drawn out process, getting in line, waiting for your name to be called, inching along waiting your turn, checking your watch, blah, blah.

The Lord Claiming, Taking, Redeeming His Church shall be an Action of the Lord...THAT IS QUICK.

Glory to God,
Taken
 
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Vexatious

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That argument can be shot down with one verse. Do you remember the word says in Revelation he is coming soon?

As for me and the one true God, soon means soon. As for pretribbers, their god is a liar. Pretribbers are the most perplexing of all liars because they themselves teach that their god is a liar and that the people of their god are suppose to believe what openly is a lie. Pretibbers believe the rapture is imminent, and that every generation should believe the rapture is imminent, even though they know it may not happen in their generation, and even though they know it wasn't imminent for every passed generation.

The Tribulation was in the first century, and Revolution is very accurate in using the word "soon" for the timing of Christ's "coming in the clouds", a phrase meaning judgement.
 
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Taken

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As for me and the one true God, soon means soon.

Soon, quick, shortly are subjective words.
Thee One True God Actions for His creations are individually soon, quickly, shortly.

As for pretribbers, their god is a liar.

You teach Thee Christ Lord God Jesus is a liar?

WOW, You certainly missed the mark!

John 14:
[6] Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.

Matt 1:
[23] Behold, a virgin shall be with child, and shall bring forth a son, and they shall call his name Emmanuel, which being interpreted is, God with us.

Pretribbers are the most perplexing of all liars because they themselves teach that their god is a liar and that the people of their god are suppose to believe what openly is a lie.

You have revealed a Biblical Truth.
Not ALL men Understand the same.

A man who Claims an other's Understanding is PERPLEXING, is a man who Claims he doesn't UNDERSTAND what another UNDERSTANDS.......

You have revealed a Biblical Truth.
Men SAY Foolish things.

You have just claimed You are PERPLEXED, by what some others Believe.
It is CLEAR, you FAIL to Understand what some others Understand.

THEN Foolishly ADD People with an Understanding YOU LACK, are People who are TEACHING LIES.

AND Foolishness UPON Foolishness ADD, (People you DO NOT Understand), you proclaim THEY are teaching LIES.

Dude Get grip. Stop Trying to Teach YOU are an authority on what you Clearly admitted you Fail to Understand!

believe the rapture is imminent, and that every generation should believe the rapture is imminent, even though they know it may not happen in their generation, and even though they know it wasn't imminent for every passed generation.

Imminent simply means ... at any moment (precisely unbeknownst to His Church)
Thee Lord God Jesus Shall CLAIM / REDEEM His Church UP to Him IN THE AIR /CLOUDS.

Obviously UNBEKNOWNST "to YOU";
Multitudes "OF Christ's CHURCH", whether Physically (Bodily) dead in the grave,
OR
Physically (Bodily) alive on the earth,
THEY
Are ALREADY "Prepared" For ANY DAY, THEIR Lord God Jesus TO "QUICKLY" Redeem Them,
ON An UNKNOWN DAY OF HIS CHOOSING!

THEY, are ALREADY MADE WHOLE.
Their SOUL is ALREADY restored and saved.
Their SPIRIT is ALREADY quickened.
Their BODY is ALREADY sanctified and justified to BE called UP in a GLORIOUS BODY, "TO" their Redeemer and Lord God Jesus.

THEY are NOT made SUBJECT to WRATH, that SHALL befall THOSE "ON EARTH", who FAILED to BECOME "PPREPARED" TO BE MADE "A MEMBER OF CHIRST JESUS" "CHURCH"

1 Thes 5
[9] For God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ.

Dude....Your TOTAL LACK of Comprehension and calling people liars, and claiming people's God is a liar......only reflects upon you in complete Foolishness and False Testifier.

God has NOT APPOINTED "US" to Wrath.

Obviously "US", does NOT INCLUDE YOU.

US is expressly INCLUSIVE OF PEOPLE, who are ALREADY "members of Christ's Church".

Because IT IS ONLY, "members of Christ's Church", who ARE NOT APPOINTED TO GODS WRATH.

NON-MEMBERS of CHRIST'S CHURCH, who DO Believe ONLY IN THEE GOD, (but) do NOT Believe IN Christ Jesus......

ARE APPOINTED TO a "portion" of GODS WRATH..UNTIL "they" BELIEVE BOTH IN God and Christ, and BECOME SAVED!

Rev 6
[9] And when he had opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of them that were slain for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held:

And ONCE THEIR souls are taken UP TO HEAVEN...

Rev 7: 13 &
14
And I said unto him, Sir, thou knowest. And he said to me, These are they which came out of great tribulation, and have washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.

THE REMAINER Left on Earth Comprises TWO GROUPS...

Those WHO have TAKEN the MARK of their god, Satan.......and THEY Shall suffer Great Wrath, and bodily DIE, and their soul UNSAVED.

and Mortals in Hiding, who have Neither, a Seal unto God or the Mark of Satan, who shall repopulate the Earth AFTER the ending of Tribulation.

Apparently YOU MISSED the LESSON..

John 14
[1] Let not your heart be troubled: ye believe in God, believe also in me.

Obviously YOU lack UNDERSTANDING....
Those WHO ARE MEMBERS of Christ's Church......BELIEVE IN GOD AND CHRIST JESUS....

Obviously YOU lack UNDERSTANDING....
Many BELIEVE IN GOD....BUT NOT CHRIST JESUS.

Obviously YOU lack UNDERSTANDING...
Many Believe IN NEITHER....God or Christ Jesus.

Obviously YOU lack UNDERSTANDING...
Men RECEIVE promises and blessing FROM GOD.....according to WHAT THEY BELIEVE!


Matt 15:
[16] And Jesus said, Are ye also yet without understanding?

Glory to God,
Taken
 
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