How should the church service be structured

[BreadOfLife]

Per commentary, you bet.
I refuse to read the garbage.
Your Pope is proud of you.

I've destroyed your posituon using nothing but Scripture . . .

 

[Truther]

I've destroyed your posituon using nothing but Scripture . . .

That's silly.

You don't hold a candle to scripture with your commentary doctrines.

 

[Truther]

Are you being serious????

Yes, right?

We are to eat and drink in memory of Him, not eat Him to get him in us.

The food and drink is not sacred, but the typology of the pascha feast is.

The lamb(Jesus' symbolic death) is found in the Bible from cover to cover.

Abel sacrificed and Rev 22 speaks of the lamb.

To get the lamb, there is only one way....the lamb inside us per "Christ in you..."(Holy Ghost).

He does not enter us from a dinner plate etc.

 

[BreadOfLife]

That's silly.

You don't hold a candle to scripture with your commentary doctrines.

Go back and read the posts, sparky.
I've destroyed EVERY ONE of your arguments using nothing but Scripture.

 

[quietthinker]

Hmmmmmm.....soooooo your not even going to attempt to answer my legitimate question? It is the same question that has been asked for 2,000 years.

Instead you choose to be demeaning and sarcastic???? That usually happens when a person has NO ABILITY to back up what they believe.

Marymog.....God's Church consists of those who hear his Commandments and do them. It is to them God's promises are fulfilled.

 

[Truther]

Go back and read the posts, sparky.
I've destroyed EVERY ONE of your arguments using nothing but Scripture.

LOL

Cute.

The Catholic is whistling in a graveyard to keep his courage up.

 

[BreadOfLife]

LOL

Cute.

The Catholic is whistling in a graveyard to keep his courage up.

And yet every verse I gave you tthat supports the Catholic Mass has been met by crickets on YOUR part.

How about a SCRIPTURAL refutation, Einstein?

 

[Truther]

And yet every verse I gave you tthat supports the Catholic Mass has been met by crickets on YOUR part.

How about a SCRIPTURAL refutation, Einstein?

A verse that supports an RCC mass?

LOL

The Catholic mass is comprised of a perfect mixture of Paganism, Judaism and Christianity.

Pagan statues...Jewish tabernacle miniatures and Christian names tacked on.

 

[BreadOfLife]

A verse that supports an RCC mass?
LOL
The Catholic mass is comprised of a perfect mixture of Paganism, Judaism and Christianity.
Pagan statues...Jewish tabernacle miniatures and Christian names tacked on.

Well - since you didn't learn back in post #269 - here itis again.
The Mass is completely Scripturally-based - so pay attention . . .

The doctrines of the Church as they pertain to the Mass (Acts 2:46-47, 1 Cor. 10:16) and the Eucharist (Matt. 26:26-29, Mark 14:22-25, Luke 22:19-20, John 6:29-71, 1 Cor. 11:27-30) are well-documented in the Bible

The Mass in Revelation
The Book of Revelation is FILLED with similarities and references between Mass on earth and that of the heavenly liturgy.
Here is a list of some of them:

Rev. 1:10 speaks of the heavenly liturgy being celebrated on the Lord's day. Catholics are obliged to attend mass on Sunday (the Lord’s Day).
Rev. 1:12, 2:5 speaks of lampstands or “Menorahs” in heaven. They are also used in the mass here on earth.
Rev. 1:13, 4:4, 6:11, 7:9, 15:6, 19:13-14 tells us about priests wearing special vestments in the heavenly liturgy. Here on earth, Catholic priests also wear liturgical vestments when celebrating Mass.
Rev. 2:5, 16, 21; 3:3; 16:11 speaks of a penitential rite going on in heaven – just like the in the Mass on earth.
Rev. 15:3-4 speaks of the “Gloria” being recited in heaven. You will hear this recited during the Mass on earth.
Rev. 4:4, 5:14; 11:16, 14:3, 19:4 mentions the presbuteros(oi) (priests) in heaven. On earth, the priest offers Jesus’ eternal and ongoing sacrifice during the Mass.
Rev. 5:8, 6:9-11, 8:3-4 speaks of the saints in heaven interceding on our behalf – just as they are petitioned in the Mass.
Rev. 4:8 speaks of heaven's un-ending hymn of praise to God, “Holy, Holy, Holy”. This very same prayer is recited in the Mass.
Rev. 2:17 speaks of manna in heaven that is given to the faithful. Likewise, during the Mass, we receive the true manna - the Eucharist.
Rev. 5:8, 8:3-4 speaks of incense being used in heaven which has been part of the celebration of the Mass from the beginning.
Rev. 6:9 tells us about the martyrs under the heavenly altar which is mirrored by the Church's tradition of having relics of saints under the altars of our churches on earth.
Rev. 5 speaks of the Lamb (describing Jesus). During the Mass, Jesus is described as the Lamb of God during the Liturgy of the Eucharist.
Rev. 8:3, 11:1, 14:18, 16:7 speaks of an altar being present in heaven – which illustrates that an eternal sacrifice is being offered. That sacrifice is the very same one being offered on the altar during the Mass.
Rev. 14:4 speaks of those who follow the Lamb wherever he goes. They are celibate. In the same way, our celibate priests and religious here on earth follow the Lord.
Rev. 15:7, 16:1-4, 8, 10, 12, 17; 21:9 speaks of chalices (bowls) being used in the heavenly liturgy. Likewise, chalices are used to offer our Lord’s eternal sacrifice on earth during the Mass.
Rev. 17, 19:9 speaks of consuming the Lamb at the marriage celebration in Heaven. This is done at every single Mass on earth during Communion.
Rev. 19:1, 3, 4, 6 speaks of the “Alleluia” being recited in heaven. You will find this recited at every Mass here on earth.
Finally, in Rev. 5:14; 7:12; 19:4, we read that heaven's concluding liturgical prayer “Amen” is the very one that is recited at the end of the Mass on earth.


Hope it sunk in that time, Einstein . . .

 

[Truther]

Well - since you didn't learn back in post #269 - here itis again.
The Mass is completely Scripturally-based - so pay attention . . .

The doctrines of the Church as they pertain to the Mass (Acts 2:46-47, 1 Cor. 10:16) and the Eucharist (Matt. 26:26-29, Mark 14:22-25, Luke 22:19-20, John 6:29-71, 1 Cor. 11:27-30) are well-documented in the Bible

The Mass in Revelation
The Book of Revelation is FILLED with similarities and references between Mass on earth and that of the heavenly liturgy.
Here is a list of some of them:

Rev. 1:10 speaks of the heavenly liturgy being celebrated on the Lord's day. Catholics are obliged to attend mass on Sunday (the Lord’s Day).
Rev. 1:12, 2:5 speaks of lampstands or “Menorahs” in heaven. They are also used in the mass here on earth.
Rev. 1:13, 4:4, 6:11, 7:9, 15:6, 19:13-14 tells us about priests wearing special vestments in the heavenly liturgy. Here on earth, Catholic priests also wear liturgical vestments when celebrating Mass.
Rev. 2:5, 16, 21; 3:3; 16:11 speaks of a penitential rite going on in heaven – just like the in the Mass on earth.
Rev. 15:3-4 speaks of the “Gloria” being recited in heaven. You will hear this recited during the Mass on earth.
Rev. 4:4, 5:14; 11:16, 14:3, 19:4 mentions the presbuteros(oi) (priests) in heaven. On earth, the priest offers Jesus’ eternal and ongoing sacrifice during the Mass.
Rev. 5:8, 6:9-11, 8:3-4 speaks of the saints in heaven interceding on our behalf – just as they are petitioned in the Mass.
Rev. 4:8 speaks of heaven's un-ending hymn of praise to God, “Holy, Holy, Holy”. This very same prayer is recited in the Mass.
Rev. 2:17 speaks of manna in heaven that is given to the faithful. Likewise, during the Mass, we receive the true manna - the Eucharist.
Rev. 5:8, 8:3-4 speaks of incense being used in heaven which has been part of the celebration of the Mass from the beginning.
Rev. 6:9 tells us about the martyrs under the heavenly altar which is mirrored by the Church's tradition of having relics of saints under the altars of our churches on earth.
Rev. 5 speaks of the Lamb (describing Jesus). During the Mass, Jesus is described as the Lamb of God during the Liturgy of the Eucharist.
Rev. 8:3, 11:1, 14:18, 16:7 speaks of an altar being present in heaven – which illustrates that an eternal sacrifice is being offered. That sacrifice is the very same one being offered on the altar during the Mass.
Rev. 14:4 speaks of those who follow the Lamb wherever he goes. They are celibate. In the same way, our celibate priests and religious here on earth follow the Lord.
Rev. 15:7, 16:1-4, 8, 10, 12, 17; 21:9 speaks of chalices (bowls) being used in the heavenly liturgy. Likewise, chalices are used to offer our Lord’s eternal sacrifice on earth during the Mass.
Rev. 17, 19:9 speaks of consuming the Lamb at the marriage celebration in Heaven. This is done at every single Mass on earth during Communion.
Rev. 19:1, 3, 4, 6 speaks of the “Alleluia” being recited in heaven. You will find this recited at every Mass here on earth.
Finally, in Rev. 5:14; 7:12; 19:4, we read that heaven's concluding liturgical prayer “Amen” is the very one that is recited at the end of the Mass on earth.


Hope it sunk in that time, Einstein . . .

Silly Catholic.

You must post an entire verse, then say what the verse says, line by line.

What a phony way to communicate an idea by saying "all these verses......mean this....."

That is mass commentary-ville.

This is how you appear as a phony.

Now, just post a verse then explain it, and I will see if you are correct or incorrect.

 

[marksman]

The ultimate structure would be the Azusa street structure per early 1900's for the modern church.

That was as pure as it gets in modern times....



The Azusa Street Revival was a historic revival meeting that took place in Los Angeles, California.[1] It was led by William J. Seymour, an African American preacher. The start on the three-year revival began on April 9, 1906 and continued until roughly 1915. On the night of April 9, 1906, Seymour and seven men were waiting on God on Bonnie Brae Street, "when suddenly, as though hit by a bolt of lightning, they were knocked from their chairs to the floor" and the other seven men began to speak in tongues and shout out loud praising God. The news quickly spread; the city was stirred; crowds gathered; and a few days later Seymour himself received the Holy Spirit; services were moved outside to accommodate the crowds who came from all around; people fell down under the power of God as they approached; people were baptized in the Holy Spirit and the sick were healed and sinners received salvation.[2] To further accommodate the crowds, an old dilapidated, two-story frame building at 312 Azusa Street in the industrial section of the city was secured. This building, originally built for an African Methodist Episcopal (AME) church, had more recently been used as a livery stable, storage building and tenement house. In this humble Azusa Street mission, a continuous three-year revival occurred and became known around the world. Stanley H. Frodsham, in his book, With Signs Following, quotes an eye-witness description of the scene: The revival was characterized by spiritual experiences accompanied with testimonies of physical healing miracles,[3] worship services, and speaking in tongues. The participants were criticized by some secular media and Christian theologians for behaviors considered to be outrageous and unorthodox, especially at the time. Today, the revival is considered by historians to be the primary catalyst for the spread of Pentecostalism in the 20th century.

Whilst I was at bible college I did a personal study of revival. Azusa Street was of course included in that. There were factors common to all of them the most important being that God took over and controlled what happened. Of course, I find it strange that people are quick to criticize what God chose to do, which involved a lot of unusual activity and the supernatural.

It is no different today because people still want to control what God does and does not do. Either through fear or arrogance. And it is sad to see that there is a whole line of theological thought that is proud of rejecting the supernatural power of God.

The more I study the NTC the more it is clear that it advanced on the back of the supernatural. It was revival 101. In time of course, man had to step in to organize things and when that happened the supernatural was replaced by form and function and it denied the NTC of the power that was its hallmark.

In the west generally speaking the secular world has a jaundiced view of the church and Christianity, especially when catholic priests are abusing kids left right and center so one has to ask is their a way that we can redeem the situation?

The only way I can think of is a return to the supernatural power of God. When a child who is confined to a wheelchair steps out of it whole, what can the world say? When a dozen children who are confined to a wheelchair and they step out of them whole what can the world say? NO doubt they will try and invent some fairy story but I have no doubt the children will say "All I know is that I could not walk but now I can through the prayer of a Christian so go figure."

What is there not to like?

 

[Josho]

I think my answer to this topic is, no matter how the services are structured, it's about the heart, we should worship and serve God in Spirit and Truth, and it doesn't matter if you are traditional, non-traditional, if you are for liturgy or not, if we worship and serve the Lord God almighty with our hearts in Spirit and Truth, God honours that.

 

[marksman]

The churches began to go astray even while the apostles were on earth, as noted in Revelation chapters 1-3. The idea of one bishop ruling over several churches was a man-made idea, followed by the idea of clergy vs laity, and then clergy above laity. This led to the idea that only one man could be the pastor/priest of a church (appointed by the bishop), rather than a presbytery of elders (appointed by the Holy Spirit). But God never intended one man to be the shepherd, as already established in Israel and its elders since the time of Moses. This is at the heart of many issues within modern churches.

Then sacerdotalism and sacramentalism entered the churches very early on. The Protestant Reformers did not totally reject all the Catholic notions either, and regarded baptism as a sacrament rather than an ordinance. Scholasticism was established in the Catholic Church, so Protestants established seminaries for training and educating clergy, which again was contrary to the New Testament pattern. Even non-Protestant evangelical churches followed along and seminaries sprouted all over the world.

By the 18th and 19th centuries the seminaries became hotbeds of unbelief and theological liberalism, starting in Germany and then spreading all over. Many false teachings arose from there and filtered into the mainline denominations, including the Social Gospel. Eventually the Fundamentalist Movement began in the early 20th century, but the Fundamentalists had to leave their churches rather than recapture them. However things did not remain as such, and Fundamentalism began to be eroded by Neo-Evangelicalism, which has now led to the Emergent Church Movement (essentially theological liberalism), the Seeker Sensitive Movement, the Charismatic Movement etc. The Charismatic Movement encouraged the idea that subjective experiences were more important than objective Bible truth.

One can add to this departure from Bible Christianity the introduction of corrupt modern bible versions (starting in 1881) which primarily impacted on the doctrine of Scripture, but affected many other doctrines. Then there was the rejection of traditional hymnals and traditional music, then the abandonment of the use of the Bible within church services. But there is more. Churches began to encourage casual and sloppy dress during worship, eating and drinking during services, loud and worldly music, watered down *Christian songs*, church services geared to entertainment rather than edification, etc. Now iPhones are permitted by some to allow people to be driven to distraction, instead of focusing on God and Christ.

The fact remains that after churches go off the rails, they adamantly refuse to repent and return to Gospel Truth and Bible Truth, as well as the New Testament pattern of worship (which is not liturgical but Spirit led). So now we have entered into the period known as the Great Apostasy, and things will only go from bad to worse.

However, this does not mean that earnest Christians cannot simply disregard all the nonsense and go back to the Bible as see how the apostolic churches were structured and how they worshiped. One can start with Acts chapter 2 which provides the basics.

A very enlightening post and most of which is so true and which we ignore at our peril. I would like to contend that the charismatic movement encouraged the idea that subjective experiences were more important that objective biblical truth was not necessarily the case everywhere.

I spent 10 years in a charismatic church in the UK, which came out of the Brethren Church, and due to that foundation and the character of the people who led it, subjective experience was never elevated above the teaching of scripture. Such was its influence people came from all over England to experience what God was doing.

 

[marksman]

I think my answer to this topic is, no matter how the services are structured, it's about the heart, we should worship and serve God in Spirit and Truth, and it doesn't matter if you are traditional, non-traditional, if you are for liturgy or not, if we worship and serve the Lord God almighty with our hearts in Spirit and Truth, God honours that.

But why accept second best when you don't have to?

 

[Josho]

@marksman

Love the chorus in this song, the first 2 lines of the chorus.

"I'm coming back to the heart of worship
And it's all about You, all about You, Jesus"

 

[marksman]

1st of all, thank you. There's a lot of material to address here--the more, the better! Though I agree with your broad brush strokes generally, I would have to qualify many of your criticisms.

I would have to say that the operation of a system of Grace assumes that the Church is never going to be perfect, as long as we live this side of the resurrection. So yes, we have to try to get back to the apostolic system, or to the biblical system. But expecting the ideal is not going to help us understand the progress of the Church in history, and hope for revival in the Church today. The Church has been progressing through all of the problems throughout the ages.

There has always been a separating process between the believing Church and the compromising Church. The fact there have been departures from true Christian practices does not disqualify the Church. Nor do imperfections within the true Church disqualify its value.

But yes, we need to look at some of these places where the Church started to get off track, and fuel a departure from the faith. I certainly wouldn't put the Charismatic Church together with the Liberal Churches! But yes, the Charismatic Church has this same tendency to compromise, leading to a departure from true Christianity.

We can get, I think, too critical, and too legalistic, when dealing with the progress of the Church in history. If we don't let people convert from where they've been, wearing their dress, liking their music, etc. they will think the jump to Christianity from paganism is impossible. We need to give them slack to allow a gradual change. In this I'm not adovcating for the allowance of actual sin. I'm just saying that we can become too harsh with Christians who are truly in the process of converting to Christianity.

Scholasticism is the same. Some need to approach the Gospel intellectually, and hope to arrive at a more spiritual place. Scholasticism is not wrong if it is able to make this jump. The fact some don't make this jump doesn't mean we should throw out the baby with the bathwater.

I agree with your sense of the problem with "sacerdotalism and sacramentalism." Luther did too. Protestantism pointed this out. But an overriding leadership is present in the doctrine of "apostleship." This was not, as you indicate, a church structure intended to be political, but rather, a prophetic call to start churches and to keep them lined up with fundamental doctrine.

Fundamentalism did properly point out the difference between true doctrine and corrupted Christian theology. As in everything, the truth must remain combined with spiritual experience if it is to remain vibrant. When the Spirit is lost, the doctrine becomes lifeless and meaningless. All this is a "process." Thanks for pointing out some important landmarks in the process in history!

Just an anecdotal story. In the UK I was part of a charismatic church that evolved out of the Brethren Church. Every week we had a full house and the meetings would go for hours. There were no demands for conformity to dress codes although I would have to say that the ladies looked splendid in their outfits and did us proud.

Just around the corner was a Strict Baptist Church and we would pass the people walking to church (maybe they were not allowed to use cars). The men, in particular, all wore exactly the same outfit right down to the smallest boy. A white shirt, black tie, black suite, black socks, and highly polished black shoes and they all carried a black bible and their hair was immaculate and they never smiled.

We never saw more than about a dozen of them so I guess they did not experience a full house as we did. You can draw all sorts of inferences from that.

 

[marksman]

Okay, I gotcha. Good point! Spontaneity is critical if we are to demonstrate an intimate and real relationship with God. As I often say, it isn't just the Scriptures that represent the word of God. It is God's speaking to our own hearts that represent God's message for us today.

And if we act on God speaking to our hearts, we will have a certain spontaneity--not just a mechanical liturgy. Although liturgies and memorization can be extremely helpful, this should never replace worship that is alive with interaction with God. Good worship leaders, for example, are able to turn on a dime when they sense God doing so.

Good preachers can deliver great sermons only if they hear the voice of God guiding them during their planned message. Of course, their "planned message" could also have been a "live" message from God for a particular Sunday.

The important thing is to keep the church structure free from the control of men so that God is free to speak "live" to us. We do plan, and we do organize, to be responsible. We do have responsible leadership and mature eldership in control, to avoid giving a service over to immaturity and to error.

But to have a single leader dominate, and not allow a multiplicity of gifts operate to bring balance is, I think, a grave mistake. All of the people here demonstrate the importance of hearing from a multiplicity of voices. Those messages would not be heard if a single leader controlled and silenced them all by insisting on dominating a service with only his own select songs and single sermon!

Thanks!

Well said.

"We do have responsible leadership and mature eldership in control, to avoid giving a service over to immaturity and to error."

In my experience of 10 years in a charismatic church in the UK, where we had no platform, no pulpit, no programme, and no preacher, and where anyone could and did minister as led by the Holy Spirit, I can only remember five times in that 10 years where the meeting had to be stopped and an Elder had to bring it back on course. Which means of course the Holy Spirit usually gets it right.

 

[Truther]

Whilst I was at bible college I did a personal study of revival. Azusa Street was of course included in that. There were factors common to all of them the most important being that God took over and controlled what happened. Of course, I find it strange that people are quick to criticize what God chose to do, which involved a lot of unusual activity and the supernatural.

It is no different today because people still want to control what God does and does not do. Either through fear or arrogance. And it is sad to see that there is a whole line of theological thought that is proud of rejecting the supernatural power of God.

The more I study the NTC the more it is clear that it advanced on the back of the supernatural. It was revival 101. In time of course, man had to step in to organize things and when that happened the supernatural was replaced by form and function and it denied the NTC of the power that was its hallmark.

In the west generally speaking the secular world has a jaundiced view of the church and Christianity, especially when catholic priests are abusing kids left right and center so one has to ask is their a way that we can redeem the situation?

The only way I can think of is a return to the supernatural power of God. When a child who is confined to a wheelchair steps out of it whole, what can the world say? When a dozen children who are confined to a wheelchair and they step out of them whole what can the world say? NO doubt they will try and invent some fairy story but I have no doubt the children will say "All I know is that I could not walk but now I can through the prayer of a Christian so go figure."

What is there not to like?

Excellent post.

There is a fine line between God running things and man running things in a church setting.

We must get back to hearing the voice of the Shepherd, and I mean Jesus.

We have simply made man into the proxy for Jesus in many of our services, and Jesus simply steps back.

He never relinquished His leadership over the church, but man stole it.

 

[marksman]

Excellent post.

There is a fine line between God running things and man running things in a church setting.

We must get back to hearing the voice of the Shepherd, and I mean Jesus.

We have simply made man into the proxy for Jesus in many of our services, and Jesus simply steps back.

He never relinquished His leadership over the church, but man stole it.

Wow! That is so good. Let me tell you a fictional story. A man decided to go to church and ended up in one that was very straight-laced. He wore a checked shirt, jeans, and boots. All the other men were in black suits and ties. An Elder took him aside after the meeting and welcomed him and suggested he wear something more suitable. He said he would ask the Lord what to wear.

Next week he was wearing the same clothes. After the meeting, the same Elder approached him about his dress again. he replied, "I asked the Lord about this but he said he couldn't help me as he had never been invited to their meeting."

 

[Josho]

Just an anecdotal story. In the UK I was part of a charismatic church that evolved out of the Brethren Church. Every week we had a full house and the meetings would go for hours. There were no demands for conformity to dress codes although I would have to say that the ladies looked splendid in their outfits and did us proud.

Just around the corner was a Strict Baptist Church and we would pass the people walking to church (maybe they were not allowed to use cars). The men, in particular, all wore exactly the same outfit right down to the smallest boy. A white shirt, black tie, black suite, black socks, and highly polished black shoes and they all carried a black bible and their hair was immaculate and they never smiled.

We never saw more than about a dozen of them so I guess they did not experience a full house as we did. You can draw all sorts of inferences from that.

Some of the Baptist Churches in Australia are strictly non-charismatic and follow a cessationist doctrine, it's pretty sad, one of the baptist Churches nearby is non-charismatic and they only have a few members, but they all where suits and ties like you say though and seem to have some sort of dress code.

Then of course there are other baptists like Crossway Baptist, which of course is a Charismatic Baptist Church.