How should the church service be structured

[BreadOfLife]

1 Cor 11 shows the pascha feast that the saints celebrated, pre- holy wafer days.

WRONG, as usual, Einstein.
Allow me to educate you . . .

In 1 Cor. 11, Paul is rebuking the Corinthians for their Eucharistic abuses. He CLEARLY differentiates regular dining with the Lord’s Supper, the Eucharist:

1 Cor. 11:20-30
When you come together, it is not the Lord's supper that you eat. For in eating, each one goes ahead with his own meal. One goes hungry, another gets drunk. What! Do you not have houses to eat and drink in? Or do you despise the church of God and humiliate those who have nothing? What shall I say to you? Shall I commend you in this? No, I will not.

For I received from the Lord what I also delivered to you, that the Lord Jesus on the night when he was betrayed took bread, and when he had given thanks, he broke it, and said, “This is my body, which is for[f] you. Do this in remembrance of me.” In the same way also he took the cup, after supper, saying, “This cup is the new covenant in my blood. Do this, as often as you drink it, in remembrance of me.” For as often as you eat this bread and drink the cup, you proclaim the Lord's death until he comes.

Whoever, therefore, eats the bread or drinks the cup of the Lord in an unworthy manner will be guilty concerning the body and blood of the Lord. Let a person examine himself, then, and so eat of the bread and drink of the cup. For anyone who eats and drinks without discerning the body eats and drinks judgment on himself. That is why many of you are weak and ill, and some have died.

 

[Enoch111]

So yes, we have to try to get back to the apostolic system, or to the biblical system.

Justin Martyr -- writing in the 2nd century -- give us the New Testament form of worship on the first day of the week:

1. ‘On the day called Sunday, all who live in cities or in the country gather together to one place...

2. ...and the memoirs of the apostles or the writings of the prophets are read, as long as time permits..

3....then when the reader has ceased, the president verbally instructs, and exhorts to the imitation of these good things...

4. Then we all rise together and pray...

5. ...and, as we before said, when our prayer is ended, bread and wine and water are brought, and the president in like manner offers prayers and thanksgivings, according to his ability, and the people assent, saying Amen..

6. ...and there is a distribution to each, and a participation of that over which thanks have been given...

7....and to those who are absent a portion is sent by the deacons...

8... And they who are well to do, and willing, give what each thinks fit; and what is collected is deposited with the president...

9...who succors [give assistance to] the orphans and widows, and those who, through sickness or any other cause are in want, and those who are in bonds, and the strangers sojourning among us, and in a word takes care of all who are in need.

10 But Sunday is the day on which we all hold our common assembly, because it is the first day on which God, having wrought a change in the darkness and matter, made the world; and Jesus Christ our Savior on the same day rose from the dead.’

 

[BreadOfLife]

Justin Martyr -- writing in the 2nd century -- give us the New Testament form of worship on the first day of the week:

1. ‘On the day called Sunday, all who live in cities or in the country gather together to one place...

2. ...and the memoirs of the apostles or the writings of the prophets are read, as long as time permits..

3....then when the reader has ceased, the president verbally instructs, and exhorts to the imitation of these good things...

4. Then we all rise together and pray...

5. ...and, as we before said, when our prayer is ended, bread and wine and water are brought, and the president in like manner offers prayers and thanksgivings, according to his ability, and the people assent, saying Amen..

6. ...and there is a distribution to each, and a participation of that over which thanks have been given...

7....and to those who are absent a portion is sent by the deacons...

8... And they who are well to do, and willing, give what each thinks fit; and what is collected is deposited with the president...

9...who succors [give assistance to] the orphans and widows, and those who, through sickness or any other cause are in want, and those who are in bonds, and the strangers sojourning among us, and in a word takes care of all who are in need.

10 But Sunday is the day on which we all hold our common assembly, because it is the first day on which God, having wrought a change in the darkness and matter, made the world; and Jesus Christ our Savior on the same day rose from the dead.’

Yup - sounds like a Eucharistic celebration, also known as the Mass . . .

 

[BreadOfLife]

Justin Martyr -- writing in the 2nd century -- give us the New Testament form of worship on the first day of the week:

1. ‘On the day called Sunday, all who live in cities or in the country gather together to one place...

2. ...and the memoirs of the apostles or the writings of the prophets are read, as long as time permits..

3....then when the reader has ceased, the president verbally instructs, and exhorts to the imitation of these good things...

4. Then we all rise together and pray...

5. ...and, as we before said, when our prayer is ended, bread and wine and water are brought, and the president in like manner offers prayers and thanksgivings, according to his ability, and the people assent, saying Amen..

6. ...and there is a distribution to each, and a participation of that over which thanks have been given...

7....and to those who are absent a portion is sent by the deacons...

8... And they who are well to do, and willing, give what each thinks fit; and what is collected is deposited with the president...

9...who succors [give assistance to] the orphans and widows, and those who, through sickness or any other cause are in want, and those who are in bonds, and the strangers sojourning among us, and in a word takes care of all who are in need.

10 But Sunday is the day on which we all hold our common assembly, because it is the first day on which God, having wrought a change in the darkness and matter, made the world; and Jesus Christ our Savior on the same day rose from the dead.’

Ignatius, Bishop of Antioch – ALSO writing at the beginning of the 2nd century corresponds with Justin Martyr’s writings:

Ignatius of Antioch
See that ye all follow the bishop, even as Jesus Christ does the Father, and the presbytery as ye would the apostles; and reverence the deacons, as being the institution of God. Let no man do anything connected with the Church without the bishop. Let that be deemed a proper Eucharist, which is [administered] either by the bishop, or by one to whom he has entrusted it. Wherever the bishop shall appear, there let the multitude [of the people] also be; even as, wherever Jesus Christ is, there is the Catholic Church (Epistle to the Smyrnaeans 8 [A.D. 107]).

 

[Philip James]

The abandonment of the Eucharistic celebration in favor of a "Hymn 'n Gospel Sandwich" is at the root of the problem for Protestants.

Renowned Evangelical minister and author, Francis Chan has recently discovered this in his own walk - and it has been a rude awakening for him.
See this short snippet from his longer sermon on the Eucharist:

Sounds like the Lord is drawing another one to the Feast!

Alleluia!

 

[BreadOfLife]

Sounds like the Lord is drawing another one to the Feast!

Alleluia!

I'm praying for him
He has a big following . . .

 

[historyb]

The abandonment of the Eucharistic celebration in favor of a "Hymn 'n Gospel Sandwich" is at the root of the problem for Protestants.

Renowned Evangelical minister and author, Francis Chan has recently discovered this in his own walk - and it has been a rude awakening for him.
See this short snippet from his longer sermon on the Eucharist:

Watched the video and he is right, evangelicals have made a man the center and at the beginning of the Church and like Chan said for a thousand years the center of the Church was the Holy Eucharist. We are so divided in the body of Christ with 30,000 plus different ideas and brands of Christianity and we could unite under the Eucharist that confers the Grace of God. How can we expect society to get better being so divided and at each other's throat ourselves.

After the first thousand years when west broke and east broke from each other Satan danced with glee and then when all others broke from Catholicism Satan danced in jubilation because Christians have done his work for him. Satan's greatest victory against Christians is when they denied what Christians for 1500 years believed to be true, believed enough to die, that the Eucharist was the body and blood of Christ. Christians didn't know how that happened just that they took Christ at His word. Now Satan's second greatest victory is when we fight, lie, and scheme against other believers instead of trying to understand each other. Look how much Satan has had the victory in this forum and this thread as we fight instead of listen, instead of trying to understand. We are all being played like a violin by Satan and we dance to his tune

 

[Truther]

WRONG, as usual, Einstein.
Allow me to educate you . . .

In 1 Cor. 11, Paul is rebuking the Corinthians for their Eucharistic abuses. He CLEARLY differentiates regular dining with the Lord’s Supper, the Eucharist:

1 Cor. 11:20-30
When you come together, it is not the Lord's supper that you eat. For in eating, each one goes ahead with his own meal. One goes hungry, another gets drunk. What! Do you not have houses to eat and drink in? Or do you despise the church of God and humiliate those who have nothing? What shall I say to you? Shall I commend you in this? No, I will not.

For I received from the Lord what I also delivered to you, that the Lord Jesus on the night when he was betrayed took bread, and when he had given thanks, he broke it, and said, “This is my body, which is for[f] you. Do this in remembrance of me.” In the same way also he took the cup, after supper, saying, “This cup is the new covenant in my blood. Do this, as often as you drink it, in remembrance of me.” For as often as you eat this bread and drink the cup, you proclaim the Lord's death until he comes.

Whoever, therefore, eats the bread or drinks the cup of the Lord in an unworthy manner will be guilty concerning the body and blood of the Lord. Let a person examine himself, then, and so eat of the bread and drink of the cup. For anyone who eats and drinks without discerning the body eats and drinks judgment on himself. That is why many of you are weak and ill, and some have died.

Wrong...

20 When ye come together therefore into one place, this is not to eat the Lord's supper.

21 For in eating every one taketh before other his own supper: and one is hungry, and another is drunken....



28 But let a man examine himself, and so let him eat of that bread, and drink of that cup.

29 For he that eateth and drinketh unworthily, eateth and drinketh damnation to himself, not discerning the Lord's body.

30 For this cause many are weak and sickly among you, and many sleep.

31 For if we would judge ourselves, we should not be judged.

32 But when we are judged, we are chastened of the Lord, that we should not be condemned with the world.

33 Wherefore, my brethren, when ye come together to eat, tarry one for another.


The supper was food, not a chalk drop.

The wealthy brought themselves food with other saints hungry.

The damnation was per the wealthy that kept their food to themselves, not distributing with the poor.

This has absolutely nothing with doing penance and a wafer.

Maybe the RCC needs to eat more chalk.

 

[Josho]

How should a Church service be structured?

In a way that glorifies God and in a way that equips the saints.

 

[BreadOfLife]

Wrong...

20 When ye come together therefore into one place, this is not to eat the Lord's supper.
21 For in eating every one taketh before other his own supper: and one is hungry, and another is drunken....
28 But let a man examine himself, and so let him eat of that bread, and drink of that cup.
29 For he that eateth and drinketh unworthily, eateth and drinketh damnation to himself, not discerning the Lord's body.
30 For this cause many are weak and sickly among you, and many sleep.
31 For if we would judge ourselves, we should not be judged.
32 But when we are judged, we are chastened of the Lord, that we should not be condemned with the world.
33 Wherefore, my brethren, when ye come together to eat, tarry one for another.

The supper was food, not a chalk drop.
The wealthy brought themselves food with other saints hungry.
The damnation was per the wealthy that kept their food to themselves, not distributing with the poor.
This has absolutely nothing with doing penance and a wafer.
Maybe the RCC needs to eat more chalk.

WRONG.
As I showed you before - Paul differentiates between dining and the Eucharist. It's ALL there in 1 Cor. 11:20-30.

The Lord's Supper was and always has been the Body and Blood of Christ. Our consummation of the Lamb in the Eucharist is a foretaste of our ONENESS with Him at the Wedding Feast of the Lamb (Rev. 19:6-10, Rev. 21:1-27). The Church has taught this for 2000 years.
YOUR rejection of this teaching is relatively new, sparky . . .

It's really tragic that you guys have replaced the LORD with your "Hymn and Bible Sandwich" at your "services" instead of receiving HIM - as HE prescribed (John 6:53-58, Matt. 26:26–28, Luke 22:19–20, Mark 14:22–24, 1 Cor. 11:23–25).

 

[Randy Kluth]

Welcome.

I heard the Seymore would feel led to have random persons speak 5 or 10 spots during prayer sessions, rather than a single person with a prepared sermon.

Multiple folks would be used to speak to the audience, but only those in prayer.

It must have been amazing to observe.

You just made Seymore go up three slots in my book! For what it's worth, I just asked my pastor to allow more responsible members of our church to share 5 or 10 minutes, since many are not learning how to speak. Even a young or new Christian can learn to speak by giving testimony to his or her conversion. It's worth the small problems that may be associated with this, and the pastor can moderate. There is plenty of a time for a pastoral exhortation or teaching later. Christians who do not learn how to speak in church may not learn to speak much elsewhere. Of course, we don't have that problem here!

 

[RogerDC]

Marksman and I have been looking into the value (or not) of the structure of the typical church service, in which a central leader delivers a sermon. I'm hesitant to dismiss the pastor, the sermon, and most of the churches in America and across the world. But I do take seriously the point marksman raised, that sermons are often weak. And I do think there could be important changes made in the structure of the service, to make ministry more efficient.

If you have any ideas, I'd love to hear them. Or, if you have an experience that may contribute to understanding the good or bad in this, please speak up!

I've had a long and varied experience in church, but of course, I'm limited by my own upbringing and experience. My own experience with the traditional sermon has not been that good on many occasion. But I don't wish to place the blame on pastors, who have simply been raised up and taught by a system that placed too much weight on them as an individual. See Exodus 18:25.

As I said elsewhere, as the main paid minister in a church, the pastor is expected to do the business of the church as well as provide the ministry of the word. This kind of administration is more than what I see the Bible as specifying. The Bible says that the Holy Spirit gives a diversity of gifts as He wishes.

So let me know what you think?

A church service should be structured exactly the same as a Catholic Mass.

 

[RogerDC]

Sounds like the Lord is drawing another one to the Feast!

Alleluia!

Excellent video! Thanks for that. I wonder if Mr. Chan take the next step on the road to truth and convert to Catholicism.

 

[RogerDC]

Watched the video and he is right, evangelicals have made a man the center and at the beginning of the Church and like Chan said for a thousand years the center of the Church was the Holy Eucharist. We are so divided in the body of Christ with 30,000 plus different ideas and brands of Christianity and we could unite under the Eucharist that confers the Grace of God. How can we expect society to get better being so divided and at each other's throat ourselves.

After the first thousand years when west broke and east broke from each other Satan danced with glee and then when all others broke from Catholicism Satan danced in jubilation because Christians have done his work for him. Satan's greatest victory against Christians is when they denied what Christians for 1500 years believed to be true, believed enough to die, that the Eucharist was the body and blood of Christ. Christians didn't know how that happened just that they took Christ at His word. Now Satan's second greatest victory is when we fight, lie, and scheme against other believers instead of trying to understand each other. Look how much Satan has had the victory in this forum and this thread as we fight instead of listen, instead of trying to understand. We are all being played like a violin by Satan and we dance to his tune

The Episcopal Church condones homosexuality and same-sex marriage, doesn't it?
I remember reading the views of Episcopal Bishop, Shelby Spong, years ago - pure 666.

 

[quietthinker]

A church service should be structured exactly the same as a Catholic Mass.

Yeahhhh, that's how Jesus did it isn't it? ....with all the bells and smells and fancy gear.....the opulent cathedrals and all.

 

[Truther]

WRONG.
As I showed you before - Paul differentiates between dining and the Eucharist. It's ALL there in 1 Cor. 11:20-30.

The Lord's Supper was and always has been the Body and Blood of Christ. Our consummation of the Lamb in the Eucharist is a foretaste of our ONENESS with Him at the Wedding Feast of the Lamb (Rev. 19:6-10, Rev. 21:1-27). The Church has taught this for 2000 years.
YOUR rejection of this teaching is relatively new, sparky . . .

It's really tragic that you guys have replaced the LORD with your "Hymn and Bible Sandwich" at your "services" instead of receiving HIM - as HE prescribed (John 6:53-58, Matt. 26:26–28, Luke 22:19–20, Mark 14:22–24, 1 Cor. 11:23–25).

Wrong.

You can eat your chalk wafer all you want but can't find such practice in the Bible.

It is a counterfeit practice, begun by lazy RCC priests that don't like sharing food equally.

They are still found guilty of the body and blood by serving chalk wafers to the hungry instead of actual food.

Good thing for them they are not in the body of Christ or God would kill them prematurely too.

 

[Truther]

A church service should be structured exactly the same as a Catholic Mass.

lol

 

[Rocky Wiley]

Marksman and I have been looking into the value (or not) of the structure of the typical church service, in which a central leader delivers a sermon. I'm hesitant to dismiss the pastor, the sermon, and most of the churches in America and across the world. But I do take seriously the point marksman raised, that sermons are often weak. And I do think there could be important changes made in the structure of the service, to make ministry more efficient.

If you have any ideas, I'd love to hear them. Or, if you have an experience that may contribute to understanding the good or bad in this, please speak up!

I've had a long and varied experience in church, but of course, I'm limited by my own upbringing and experience. My own experience with the traditional sermon has not been that good on many occasion. But I don't wish to place the blame on pastors, who have simply been raised up and taught by a system that placed too much weight on them as an individual. See Exodus 18:25.

As I said elsewhere, as the main paid minister in a church, the pastor is expected to do the business of the church as well as provide the ministry of the word. This kind of administration is more than what I see the Bible as specifying. The Bible says that the Holy Spirit gives a diversity of gifts as He wishes.

So let me know what you think?

It should be structured like Sunday School. You would have a leader to start and then would pass the pulpit around to everyone for their take on the subject. It would be sort of like this forum.

 

[BreadOfLife]

Wrong.

You can eat your chalk wafer all you want but can't find such practice in the Bible.

It is a counterfeit practice, begun by lazy RCC priests that don't like sharing food equally.

They are still found guilty of the body and blood by serving chalk wafers to the hungry instead of actual food.

Good thing for them they are not in the body of Christ or God would kill them prematurely too.

That’s the best part about debating with you. YOU expose your ignorance to everybody - and I don’t have to do ANYTHING other than provide the Scripture for you to trip over.

No – the Bible is CRYSTAL-clear that Jesus gave us His Body and Blood - the Eucharist to consume so that we may have life within us (John 6:53, Matt. 26:26-28, Luke 22:19-20, Mark 14:22-24, 1 Cor. 11:23-25).

Good luck on your diet, sparky . . .

 

[Truther]

That’s the best part about debating with you. YOU expose your ignorance to everybody - and I don’t have to do ANYTHING other than provide the Scripture for you to trip over.

No – the Bible is CRYSTAL-clear that Jesus gave us His Body and Blood - the Eucharist to consume so that we may have life within us (John 6:53, Matt. 26:26-28, Luke 22:19-20, Mark 14:22-24, 1 Cor. 11:23-25).

Good luck on your diet, sparky . . .

That's silly RCC doctrine.
Jesus is not a chalky blessed wafer.
Jesus is light.
Jesus ordained a memorial feast for Christians to coincide with the Jews memorial feast of the passover.
1 Cor 11 depicts the feast in action.
It is a sacred feast, to make the body of Christ(Christians) equal, having all things common.
The RCC changed it into a wafer exchange, from a phony priest to so called laity.