How should we view the Rich Young Ruler?

[WalterandDebbie]

Here is a short video...a few minutes long... just enough to get the conversation going.

Hello Episkopos, How are you all?

Drawing Conclusions​

Now Luke 16:25: This verse reinforces the element of the passing of time to properly understand the parable. Abraham answers the rich man by saying, “Son, remember that you in your lifetime…” What would be the point of using the word “remember” if the rich man’s lifetime had ended just a few seconds prior to this conversation? The passing of much time since the rich man’s death is confirmed at the end of the verse, when Abraham says, “but now he [Lazarus] is comforted.”

It is apparent that the two words remember and now are contrasted because significant time has passed. Both men had been in the grave for a great while, until the time of their resurrections.
Verse 26: This verse describes what is called “a great gulf fixed” between where Abraham and Lazarus were and where the rich man was. Some believe this is a picture of a great physical distance between the locations of heaven and hell. It certainly does not say that. What exactly is this “great gulf fixed?”

Notice: “Behold, the LORD’s hand is not shortened, that it cannot save; neither His ear heavy, that it cannot hear: But your iniquities [sins] have separated between you and your God, and your sins have hid His face from you, that He will not hear” (Isa. 59:1-2).
Sin cuts people off from God! God is holy—He does not have contact with sin. The rich man’s sins had cut him off from God. This is why

Abraham said that no one on either side of this “gulf” was able to cross to the other side. It was impossible.
Luke 16:27-28: These two verses can be taken together because they both describe the rich man’s request to send Lazarus to warn his brothers. The rich man would have been unaware of how much time had passed.

Verse 29: Abraham’s answer to this question is extremely important because it reveals what everyone alive today should do in their own lives. He warns that the five brothers should listen to “Moses and the prophets”—in other words, read and believe the Bible. Abraham is emphatic—“let them hear them.” This is Christ’s instruction to an entire world that ignores the Bible in general and the words of Moses and the Old Testament prophets in particular.

Verses 30-31: These verses demonstrate that people who are determined not to obey God would not even be moved to action by a well-known person resurrected “from the dead.” What a stunning indictment of human nature in the face of the plain truths of God. These verses contain a warning. Will you hear it?

The rich man had been given his opportunity in his lifetime. He realized that he had missed out on salvation. He also recognized that Lazarus had been resurrected. The entire account of this parable was used by Christ to teach the resurrection of the dead. This account was never intended to teach the idea of immediately going to heaven or hell upon death.

Love, Walter And Debbie

 

[Johann]

O.k. But what IS "faith"? What does it mean to have "faith in Jesus"? I've seen so many Christians -- especially new Christians -- who claim to have "faith in Jesus." And yet...they're just as ornery as before.

In Mark 1:15, the first 'command' that Jesus said was to REPENT. Seems to me that repentance is an "act"...a "work"...a "deed"...a demonstration of our FAITH.

What I bolded makes more sense to me. Faith without "works" doesn't make any sense to me. I mean, if someone told me they love me, yet treated me like dog dung, am I to believe that they REALLY love me?

Then again, if someone NEVER told me they love me, yet demonstrated -- a.k.a. showed me -- their love for me, which would I pay more attention to?

I could go on and on Johann, but I really believe that some of us sometimes get so caught up in the whole "JESUS this" and "JESUS that."

Where do PEOPLE figure into the equation?

Jas 2:14 What doth it profit, my brethren, though a man say he hath faith, and have not works? can faith save him?
Jas 2:15 If a brother or sister be naked, and destitute of daily food,
Jas 2:16 And one of you say unto them, Depart in peace, be ye warmed and filled; notwithstanding ye give them not those things which are needful to the body; what doth it profit?
Jas 2:17 Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone.
Jas 2:18 Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: shew me thy faith without thy works, and I will shew thee my faith by my works.
Jas 2:19 Thou believest that there is one God; thou doest well: the devils also believe, and tremble.
Jas 2:20 But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead?
Jas 2:21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar?
Jas 2:22 Seest thou how faith wrought with his works, and by works was faith made perfect?
Jas 2:23 And the scripture was fulfilled which saith, Abraham believed God, and it was imputed unto him for righteousness: and he was called the Friend of God.
Jas 2:24 Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only.
Jas 2:25 Likewise also was not Rahab the harlot justified by works, when she had received the messengers, and had sent them out another way?
Jas 2:26 For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also.
--------------------------------------------------------------------

1Co 13:1 If I speak in the tongues of men and of angels, but have not love, I am a noisy gong or a clanging cymbal.
1Co 13:2 And if I have prophetic powers, and understand all mysteries and all knowledge, and if I have all faith, so as to remove mountains, but have not love, I am nothing.
1Co 13:3 If I give away all I have, and if I deliver up my body to be burned, but have not love, I gain nothing.
1Co 13:4 Love is patient and kind; love does not envy or boast; it is not arrogant
1Co 13:5 or rude. It does not insist on its own way; it is not irritable or resentful;
1Co 13:6 it does not rejoice at wrongdoing, but rejoices with the truth.
1Co 13:7 Love bears all things, believes all things, hopes all things, endures all things.
1Co 13:8 Love never ends. As for prophecies, they will pass away; as for tongues, they will cease; as for knowledge, it will pass away.
1Co 13:9 For we know in part and we prophesy in part,
1Co 13:10 but when the perfect comes, the partial will pass away.
1Co 13:11 When I was a child, I spoke like a child, I thought like a child, I reasoned like a child. When I became a man, I gave up childish ways.
1Co 13:12 For now we see in a mirror dimly, but then face to face. Now I know in part; then I shall know fully, even as I have been fully known.
1Co 13:13 So now faith, hope, and love abide, these three; but the greatest of these is love.


This is what I mean @Mink57 -guess we are ALL still a work in progress-yes?
Johann.

 

[MatthewG]

Yes, I agree also, @Mink57

To do good, just, and fair to one anthor is something only done in abiding in christ.

Its just good to have consideration and as you Im guilty of not having any compassion or mercy to others from time to time, its the sin in me.

Jesus was only hard on the religious pharisees of his time. However being honest about in one breathe one says they love God and on the other hand they hate there brother is not wrong; if its correct.

Micah 6:8 He hath shown thee, O man, what is good: and what doth the LORD require of thee but to do justly and to love mercy, and to walk humbly with thy God?

Proverbs 21:3 Do what is right and fair; that pleases the LORD more than bringing him sacrifices. 4 Wicked people are controlled by their conceit and arrogance, and this is sinful. 5 Plan carefully and you will have plenty; if you act too quickly, you will never have enough.

Hebrews 13:16 And do not forget to do good and to share with others, for with such sacrifices God is pleased.

 

[Episkopos]

Hello Episkopos, How are you all?

Drawing Conclusions​

Now Luke 16:25: This verse reinforces the element of the passing of time to properly understand the parable. Abraham answers the rich man by saying, “Son, remember that you in your lifetime…” What would be the point of using the word “remember” if the rich man’s lifetime had ended just a few seconds prior to this conversation? The passing of much time since the rich man’s death is confirmed at the end of the verse, when Abraham says, “but now he [Lazarus] is comforted.”

It is apparent that the two words remember and now are contrasted because significant time has passed. Both men had been in the grave for a great while, until the time of their resurrections.
Verse 26: This verse describes what is called “a great gulf fixed” between where Abraham and Lazarus were and where the rich man was. Some believe this is a picture of a great physical distance between the locations of heaven and hell. It certainly does not say that. What exactly is this “great gulf fixed?”

Notice: “Behold, the LORD’s hand is not shortened, that it cannot save; neither His ear heavy, that it cannot hear: But your iniquities [sins] have separated between you and your God, and your sins have hid His face from you, that He will not hear” (Isa. 59:1-2).
Sin cuts people off from God! God is holy—He does not have contact with sin. The rich man’s sins had cut him off from God. This is why

Abraham said that no one on either side of this “gulf” was able to cross to the other side. It was impossible.
Luke 16:27-28: These two verses can be taken together because they both describe the rich man’s request to send Lazarus to warn his brothers. The rich man would have been unaware of how much time had passed.

Verse 29: Abraham’s answer to this question is extremely important because it reveals what everyone alive today should do in their own lives. He warns that the five brothers should listen to “Moses and the prophets”—in other words, read and believe the Bible. Abraham is emphatic—“let them hear them.” This is Christ’s instruction to an entire world that ignores the Bible in general and the words of Moses and the Old Testament prophets in particular.

Verses 30-31: These verses demonstrate that people who are determined not to obey God would not even be moved to action by a well-known person resurrected “from the dead.” What a stunning indictment of human nature in the face of the plain truths of God. These verses contain a warning. Will you hear it?

The rich man had been given his opportunity in his lifetime. He realized that he had missed out on salvation. He also recognized that Lazarus had been resurrected. The entire account of this parable was used by Christ to teach the resurrection of the dead. This account was never intended to teach the idea of immediately going to heaven or hell upon death.

Love, Walter And Debbie

An interesting take on this. But the "remember" could just be that the rich man was able to remember his previous life behaviour.

The problem with this is that Jesus says to the RYR...obey the commandments...in order to be saved. Selling all to follow Jesus was if he wanted to be "perfect"...not just saved.

I think there is an assumption that saved means one thing rather than 3 possibilities for those who are saved.

Even in this life a man going to war can survive a battle and lose limbs, eyesight, be disfigured..etc. Is that person saved the same way as someone coming through it all untouched? What about the mental state of the veteran. No visible scars...but a lot of trauma nevertheless. Jesus says that it is better to lose a part of us and still be saved than to be cast into the lake of fire. We can suffer loss and still survive into the next age.

Salvation is by degrees. We pray to be fully preserved blameless till He comes.

The righteous are saved to the nations. The saints rule over the nations and serve God in the holy city. The filthy (hypocrites) are cast into darkness to wander in the wilderness forever.

Among these possibilities, we could find the RYR. If he obeyed the commandments...the 5 that Jesus listed...yet did not follow Christ into His perfection...there is still the possibility of him being among the nations.

The rich are just not able to enter into the kingdom realm...it doesn't mean they can't be saved at all. No one enters into the kingdom realm unless all is forsaken in this world. VERY FEW will be translated into the holy walk. Many are called FEW are chosen.

 

[Eternally Grateful]

O.k. But what IS "faith"? What does it mean to have "faith in Jesus"? I've seen so many Christians -- especially new Christians -- who claim to have "faith in Jesus." And yet...they're just as ornery as before.

In Mark 1:15, the first 'command' that Jesus said was to REPENT. Seems to me that repentance is an "act"...a "work"...a "deed"...a demonstration of our FAITH.

What I bolded makes more sense to me. Faith without "works" doesn't make any sense to me. I mean, if someone told me they love me, yet treated me like dog dung, am I to believe that they REALLY love me?

Then again, if someone NEVER told me they love me, yet demonstrated -- a.k.a. showed me -- their love for me, which would I pay more attention to?

I could go on and on Johann, but I really believe that some of us sometimes get so caught up in the whole "JESUS this" and "JESUS that."

Where do PEOPLE figure into the equation?

In the greek. Faith means to have a trust. To be assured of. To be convinced.

sadly, the English word is to broad..

 

[Johann]

In the greek. Faith means to have a trust. To be assured of. To be convinced.

sadly, the English word is to broad..

FAITH, BELIEVE, OR TRUST

A. This is such an important term in the Bible (cf. Heb. 11:1,6). It is the subject of Jesus' early preaching (cf. Mark 1:15). There are at least two new covenant requirements: repentance and faith (Mark 1:15; Acts 3:16,19; 20:21).



B. Its etymology

1. The term "faith" in the OT meant loyalty, fidelity, or trustworthiness and was a description of God's nature, not ours.

2. It came from a Hebrew term (emun, emunah, BDB 53, i.e., Hab. 2:4), which originally meant "to be sure or stable." Saving faith is

a. a person to welcome (i.e., personal trust, faith, cf. E. 1. below)

b. believing truths about that person (i.e., Scripture, cf. E. 5. below)

c. living a life like that person (i.e., Christlikeness)



C. Its OT usage

It must be emphasized that Abraham's faith was not in a future Messiah, but in God's promise that he would have a child and descendants (cf. Genesis 12:2; 15:2-5; 17:4-8; 18:14; Rom. 4:1-5). Abraham responded to this promise by trusting in God (see SPECIAL TOPIC: Believe, Trust, Faith and Faithfulness in the OT) and His word. He still had doubts and concerns regarding this promise, which took thirteen years to be fulfilled. His imperfect faith, however, was accepted by God. God is willing to work with flawed human beings who respond to Him and His promises in faith, even if it is the size of a mustard seed (cf. Matt. 17:20) or mixed faith (cf. Mark 9:22-24).



D. Its NT usage

The term "believe" is from the Greek VERB pisteuō or NOUN pistis, which is translated into English as "believe," "faith," or "trust." For example, the NOUN does not occur in the Gospel of John, but the VERB is used often. In John 2:23-25 there is uncertainty as to the genuineness of the crowd's commitment to Jesus of Nazareth as the Messiah. Other examples of this superficial use of the term "believe" are in John 8:31-59 and Acts 8:13, 18-24. True biblical faith is more than an initial response. It must be followed by a process of discipleship (cf. Matt. 13:20-23,31-32; 28:19-20).



E. Its use with PREPOSITIONS

1. eis means "into." This unique construction emphasizes believers putting their trust/faith in Jesus

a. into His name (John 1:12; 2:23; 3:18; 1 John 5:13)

b. into Him (John 2:11; 3:15,18; 4:39; 6:40; 7:5,31,39,48; 8:30; 9:36; 10:42; 11:45,48; 12:37,42; Matt. 18:6; Acts 10:43; Phil. 1:29; 1 Pet. 1:8)

c. into Me (John 6:35; 7:38; 11:25,26; 12:44,46; 14:1,12; 16:9; 17:20)

d. into the Son (John 3:36; 9:35; 1 John 5:10)

e. into Jesus (John 12:11; Acts 19:4; Gal. 2:16)

f. into Light (John 12:36)

g. into God (John 14:1)

2. ev means "in" as in John 3:15; Mark 1:15; Acts 5:14

3. epi means "in" or "upon," as in Matt. 27:42; Acts 9:42; 11:17; 16:31; 22:19; Rom. 4:5,24; 9:33; 10:11; 1 Tim. 1:16; 1 Pet. 2:6

4. the DATIVE CASE with no PREPOSITION as in John 4:50; Gal. 3:6; Acts 18:8; 27:25; 1 John 3:23; 5:10

5. hoti, which means "believe that," gives content as to what to believe

a. Jesus is the Holy One of God (John 6:69)

b. Jesus is the I Am (John 8:24)

c. Jesus is in the Father and the Father is in Him (John 10:38)

d. Jesus is the Messiah (John 11:27; 20:31)

e. Jesus is the Son of God (John 11:27; 20:31)

f. Jesus was sent by the Father (John 11:42; 17:8,21)

g. Jesus is one with the Father (John 14:10-11)

h. Jesus came from the Father (John 16:27,30)

i. Jesus identified Himself in the covenant name of the Father, "I Am" (John 8:24; 13:19)

j. We will live with Him (Rom. 6:8)

k. Jesus died and rose again (1 Thess. 4:14)

 

[Mink57]

Jas 2:14 What doth it profit, my brethren, though a man say he hath faith, and have not works? can faith save him?
Jas 2:15 If a brother or sister be naked, and destitute of daily food,
Jas 2:16 And one of you say unto them, Depart in peace, be ye warmed and filled; notwithstanding ye give them not those things which are needful to the body; what doth it profit?
Jas 2:17 Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone.
Jas 2:18 Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: shew me thy faith without thy works, and I will shew thee my faith by my works.
Jas 2:19 Thou believest that there is one God; thou doest well: the devils also believe, and tremble.
Jas 2:20 But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead?
Jas 2:21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar?
Jas 2:22 Seest thou how faith wrought with his works, and by works was faith made perfect?
Jas 2:23 And the scripture was fulfilled which saith, Abraham believed God, and it was imputed unto him for righteousness: and he was called the Friend of God.
Jas 2:24 Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only.
Jas 2:25 Likewise also was not Rahab the harlot justified by works, when she had received the messengers, and had sent them out another way?
Jas 2:26 For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also.
--------------------------------------------------------------------

1Co 13:1 If I speak in the tongues of men and of angels, but have not love, I am a noisy gong or a clanging cymbal.
1Co 13:2 And if I have prophetic powers, and understand all mysteries and all knowledge, and if I have all faith, so as to remove mountains, but have not love, I am nothing.
1Co 13:3 If I give away all I have, and if I deliver up my body to be burned, but have not love, I gain nothing.
1Co 13:4 Love is patient and kind; love does not envy or boast; it is not arrogant
1Co 13:5 or rude. It does not insist on its own way; it is not irritable or resentful;
1Co 13:6 it does not rejoice at wrongdoing, but rejoices with the truth.
1Co 13:7 Love bears all things, believes all things, hopes all things, endures all things.
1Co 13:8 Love never ends. As for prophecies, they will pass away; as for tongues, they will cease; as for knowledge, it will pass away.
1Co 13:9 For we know in part and we prophesy in part,
1Co 13:10 but when the perfect comes, the partial will pass away.
1Co 13:11 When I was a child, I spoke like a child, I thought like a child, I reasoned like a child. When I became a man, I gave up childish ways.
1Co 13:12 For now we see in a mirror dimly, but then face to face. Now I know in part; then I shall know fully, even as I have been fully known.
1Co 13:13 So now faith, hope, and love abide, these three; but the greatest of these is love.


This is what I mean @Mink57 -guess we are ALL still a work in progress-yes?
Johann.

YES! Those two passages are definitely what I think about when I consider "works" and "love."

While James 2:15-16 talks about food and clothing, is it ONLY about food and clothing? Those passages 'speak' more to me about being kind and helpful when we can, in other areas besides (or in addition to) food and clothing.

A few months ago (and I'm not telling this story in order to brag, but to see if I'm on the right path), I was able to "do good" for SIX people in a day. One guy climbed on the bus. The driver shouted at at him, telling him that he had to pay. The guy shouted back, "Don't busses give courtesy rides to people who just got out of jail? (he got up, reached in his pocket and started toward the driver) Here...I have a release letter that I was told to show you..." Meanwhile, I'm digging in my wallet to give the guy the money for the fare, if the driver refused the letter. The driver accepted the letter, and as the guy walked back to his seat, I handed him the money anyway.

The woman sitting next me began to chastise me for giving the guy the money! While she was reading me the riot act, the words, "DO UNTO OTHERS" flashed in my mind. If *I* was in jail, wouldn't *I* be grateful that someone took pity on me, and showed me a little mercy? Thankfully, I only had to endure the woman's wrath for one more stop...

I had to transfer to another bus and travel three more stops before getting to my destination. When I got off the second bus, a man in a wheelchair approached me. He was missing a leg. He asked me if I could spare five bucks so he could get a pizza from the 7-11 across the street. As I was looking in my wallet, he then asked if I could give him SIX bucks, so he could get a pizza and a fountain drink. I told him that I was going to the 7-11, and asked him if I could 'push' him over there. He declined, saying that he was waiting for a friend. As I left, Matthew 25:40 popped into my head: “...Truly I tell you, whatever you did for one of the least of these brothers and sisters of mine, you did for me.’" O.k. Lord...I'm listening...

At the 7-11, the clerk made change for me, and gave me too much money. I immediately gave it back to him. As I left, a man said to me that *I* was "crazy", and that it was the clerk's mistake...and that I should have kept the overage. Wow. 'Do unto others' popped into my head again.

As I walked across the street toward home, I saw the guy in the wheelchair...being pushed by a man. The man pushed him into the 7-11 parking lot. I guess he really WAS waiting for a friend, and really DID want a pizza. "Do Not Judge."

I don't remember the other things that happened that day, but I remember the total was six. Small, seemingly 'stupid' stuff. The total financial cost to me, was less than $20.

I got home that day, sat on my couch and cried. I was SO HAPPY that God allowed me to be helpful to others! A couple of bucks here...a kind word there...

While the financial cost to me that day was less than $20, the spiritual reward seemed to be far greater than the financial 'investment'.

But sometimes our initial 'investment' isn't really about money. It's our kindness...our compassion...our mercy toward others, in everyday life that seems to matter most.

So, after saying this, am I on the right path...or not?

 

[Mikey-for-sure]

Here is a short video...a few minutes long... just enough to get the conversation going.

Here are my 2 cents. I am an annihilationist, so hell seems to a disqualifiying choice. But the narrative of the rich young man, is in the same vein as who will be the greatest of God's Kingdom
Matthew 18
1At the same time came the disciples unto Jesus, saying, Who is the greatest in the kingdom of heaven? 2And Jesus called a little child unto him, and set him in the midst of them, 3And said, Verily I say unto you, Except ye be converted, and become as little children, ye shall not enter into the kingdom of heaven. 4Whosoever therefore shall humble himself as this little child, the same is greatest in the kingdom of heaven. 5And whoso shall receive one such little child in my name receiveth me. 6But whoso shall offend one of these little ones which believe in me, it were better for him that a millstone were hanged about his neck, and that he were drowned in the depth of the sea.

Selling all and giving all to the needy is adhering to loving your neighbour while his obeisance to the law shows in part his love for God. Jesus condemns noone. He wants you to be a son of God too.

 

[Mink57]

In the greek. Faith means to have a trust. To be assured of. To be convinced.

sadly, the English word is to broad..

I agree. I see words like "faith" and "belief"...and even "love" as umbrella words. Even a phrase like "Do unto others" is an umbrella phrase which other actions fall under.

I don't think we can define ALL actions that fall under faith, belief and love. Small...seemingly small things to us, we may consider as insignificant. But to someone else, well...may just make their day...or even their LIFE.

I could spend the whole day, on my knees, reading the bible, THINKING that by doing so, I'm giving "glory" to God.

Meanwhile, I could leave the house for 10 minutes...see a woman stumble on the sidewalk...and help her to her feet. God may see that small gesture as giving Him more glory than if I had been on my knees, reading the bible for the whole year!

O.k. So, if Faith means to "have a trust" (for example), HOW do we show that we have trust?

 

[Johann]

YES! Those two passages are definitely what I think about when I consider "works" and "love."

While James 2:15-16 talks about food and clothing, is it ONLY about food and clothing? Those passages 'speak' more to me about being kind and helpful when we can, in other areas besides (or in addition to) food and clothing.

A few months ago (and I'm not telling this story in order to brag, but to see if I'm on the right path), I was able to "do good" for SIX people in a day. One guy climbed on the bus. The driver shouted at at him, telling him that he had to pay. The guy shouted back, "Don't busses give courtesy rides to people who just got out of jail? (he got up, reached in his pocket and started toward the driver) Here...I have a release letter that I was told to show you..." Meanwhile, I'm digging in my wallet to give the guy the money for the fare, if the driver refused the letter. The driver accepted the letter, and as the guy walked back to his seat, I handed him the money anyway.

The woman sitting next me began to chastise me for giving the guy the money! While she was reading me the riot act, the words, "DO UNTO OTHERS" flashed in my mind. If *I* was in jail, wouldn't *I* be grateful that someone took pity on me, and showed me a little mercy? Thankfully, I only had to endure the woman's wrath for one more stop...

I had to transfer to another bus and travel three more stops before getting to my destination. When I got off the second bus, a man in a wheelchair approached me. He was missing a leg. He asked me if I could spare five bucks so he could get a pizza from the 7-11 across the street. As I was looking in my wallet, he then asked if I could give him SIX bucks, so he could get a pizza and a fountain drink. I told him that I was going to the 7-11, and asked him if I could 'push' him over there. He declined, saying that he was waiting for a friend. As I left, Matthew 25:40 popped into my head: “...Truly I tell you, whatever you did for one of the least of these brothers and sisters of mine, you did for me.’" O.k. Lord...I'm listening...

At the 7-11, the clerk made change for me, and gave me too much money. I immediately gave it back to him. As I left, a man said to me that *I* was "crazy", and that it was the clerk's mistake...and that I should have kept the overage. Wow. 'Do unto others' popped into my head again.

As I walked across the street toward home, I saw the guy in the wheelchair...being pushed by a man. The man pushed him into the 7-11 parking lot. I guess he really WAS waiting for a friend, and really DID want a pizza. "Do Not Judge."

I don't remember the other things that happened that day, but I remember the total was six. Small, seemingly 'stupid' stuff. The total financial cost to me, was less than $20.

I got home that day, sat on my couch and cried. I was SO HAPPY that God allowed me to be helpful to others! A couple of bucks here...a kind word there...

While the financial cost to me that day was less than $20, the spiritual reward seemed to be far greater than the financial 'investment'.

But sometimes our initial 'investment' isn't really about money. It's our kindness...our compassion...our mercy toward others, in everyday life that seems to matter most.

So, after saying this, am I on the right path...or not?

Who am I? Your judge?
I lost my wife a few years ago and my son is severely palsied and in need of care 24/7-I don't have finances and this is my only form of contact to the virtual world.
To me it is not about pontificating or philosophizing about God's word but to yield obedience to the Imperatives as recorded in Scriptures-nothing to do with emotional outbursts, fluctuating to and fro.

What you do to your neighbor and enemy is between you and the Lord.

Point is-are you doing what stands written? Not only when you "feel like it"=you and I are going to stand before our Judge to give an account of every idle, useless, inoperative words we have spoken, in word, thought and deed-it is appointed ONCE for man to die and after that the judgement-our eternal destiny is at stake here.

Are you sure re your salvation?

An aside-I come from a ministerial ministry where we put Matt 25 in action-what is "making disciples" in your own words?

Here in South Africa I witness daily two churches-with hundreds of "outies" the homeless, disenfranchised-in need of food and shelter-and they don't get that from the Churches-what is love? Love is not a feeling but an ACT of the will, not to those who show you kindness, but those who are filthy, half naked, sick, in prison, homeless, prostitution-drunks etc.

1Jn 4:1 Beloved, believe not every spirit, but try the spirits whether they are of God: because many false prophets are gone out into the world.
1Jn 4:2 Hereby know ye the Spirit of God: Every spirit that confesseth that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is of God:
1Jn 4:3 And every spirit that confesseth not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is not of God: and this is that spirit of antichrist, whereof ye have heard that it should come; and even now already is it in the world.
1Jn 4:4 Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world.

I'm here should you want to really tell me what is going on.
J.

 

[Johann]

I agree. I see words like "faith" and "belief"...and even "love" as umbrella words. Even a phrase like "Do unto others" is an umbrella phrase which other actions fall under.

I don't think we can define ALL actions that fall under faith, belief and love. Small...seemingly small things to us, we may consider as insignificant. But to someone else, well...may just make their day...or even their LIFE.

I could spend the whole day, on my knees, reading the bible, THINKING that by doing so, I'm giving "glory" to God.

Meanwhile, I could leave the house for 10 minutes...see a woman stumble on the sidewalk...and help her to her feet. God may see that small gesture as giving Him more glory than if I had been on my knees, reading the bible for the whole year!

O.k. So, if Faith means to "have a trust" (for example), HOW do we show that we have trust?

(for example), HO

FAITH, BELIEVE, OR TRUST

A. This is such an important term in the Bible (cf. Heb. 11:1,6). It is the subject of Jesus' early preaching (cf. Mark 1:15). There are at least two new covenant requirements: repentance and faith (Mark 1:15; Acts 3:16,19; 20:21).



B. Its etymology

1. The term "faith" in the OT meant loyalty, fidelity, or trustworthiness and was a description of God's nature, not ours.

2. It came from a Hebrew term (emun, emunah, BDB 53, i.e., Hab. 2:4), which originally meant "to be sure or stable." Saving faith is

a. a person to welcome (i.e., personal trust, faith, cf. E. 1. below)

b. believing truths about that person (i.e., Scripture, cf. E. 5. below)

c. living a life like that person (i.e., Christlikeness)



C. Its OT usage

It must be emphasized that Abraham's faith was not in a future Messiah, but in God's promise that he would have a child and descendants (cf. Genesis 12:2; 15:2-5; 17:4-8; 18:14; Rom. 4:1-5). Abraham responded to this promise by trusting in God (see SPECIAL TOPIC: Believe, Trust, Faith and Faithfulness in the OT) and His word. He still had doubts and concerns regarding this promise, which took thirteen years to be fulfilled. His imperfect faith, however, was accepted by God. God is willing to work with flawed human beings who respond to Him and His promises in faith, even if it is the size of a mustard seed (cf. Matt. 17:20) or mixed faith (cf. Mark 9:22-24).



D. Its NT usage

The term "believe" is from the Greek VERB pisteuō or NOUN pistis, which is translated into English as "believe," "faith," or "trust." For example, the NOUN does not occur in the Gospel of John, but the VERB is used often. In John 2:23-25 there is uncertainty as to the genuineness of the crowd's commitment to Jesus of Nazareth as the Messiah. Other examples of this superficial use of the term "believe" are in John 8:31-59 and Acts 8:13, 18-24. True biblical faith is more than an initial response. It must be followed by a process of discipleship (cf. Matt. 13:20-23,31-32; 28:19-20).



E. Its use with PREPOSITIONS

1. eis means "into." This unique construction emphasizes believers putting their trust/faith in Jesus

a. into His name (John 1:12; 2:23; 3:18; 1 John 5:13)

b. into Him (John 2:11; 3:15,18; 4:39; 6:40; 7:5,31,39,48; 8:30; 9:36; 10:42; 11:45,48; 12:37,42; Matt. 18:6; Acts 10:43; Phil. 1:29; 1 Pet. 1:8)

c. into Me (John 6:35; 7:38; 11:25,26; 12:44,46; 14:1,12; 16:9; 17:20)

d. into the Son (John 3:36; 9:35; 1 John 5:10)

e. into Jesus (John 12:11; Acts 19:4; Gal. 2:16)

f. into Light (John 12:36)

g. into God (John 14:1)

2. ev means "in" as in John 3:15; Mark 1:15; Acts 5:14

3. epi means "in" or "upon," as in Matt. 27:42; Acts 9:42; 11:17; 16:31; 22:19; Rom. 4:5,24; 9:33; 10:11; 1 Tim. 1:16; 1 Pet. 2:6

4. the DATIVE CASE with no PREPOSITION as in John 4:50; Gal. 3:6; Acts 18:8; 27:25; 1 John 3:23; 5:10

5. hoti, which means "believe that," gives content as to what to believe

a. Jesus is the Holy One of God (John 6:69)

b. Jesus is the I Am (John 8:24)

c. Jesus is in the Father and the Father is in Him (John 10:38)

d. Jesus is the Messiah (John 11:27; 20:31)

e. Jesus is the Son of God (John 11:27; 20:31)

f. Jesus was sent by the Father (John 11:42; 17:8,21)

g. Jesus is one with the Father (John 14:10-11)

h. Jesus came from the Father (John 16:27,30)

i. Jesus identified Himself in the covenant name of the Father, "I Am" (John 8:24; 13:19)

j. We will live with Him (Rom. 6:8)

k. Jesus died and rose again (1 Thess. 4:14)

 

[amigo de christo]

I like what you wrote here, and yes, I get it. But what I don't agree with (Sorry Amigo...) is "Bible time."

WE can spend all the time in the world with the Bible. Reading it, day after day. On our knees, throwing our hands up to heaven in worship. JESUS, I LOVE YOU!

And yet, come to a forum such as this, and call someone...a fellow BROTHER a "liar." And be snarky...and condescending...

Makes no sense to me.

I mean, didn't Jesus teach us that that's NOT what we're supposed to do? I get the whole "admonish a brother who is wrong" type thing (I'm paraphrasing). But can't we do it with the LOVE that Christ tried to teach us?

I dunno. Maybe I'm just another 'stupid' Christian who doesn't get it...

Correction good . overlooking error bad . Now i ask you something . Feel free to read my posts .
See who calls who what . I call out bad doctrine , that is a GOOD THING .
I aint huge on the name calling my friend . But you read my posts and you can be the judge of that .
Encouraging folks to read bible , GOOD .
Now i now a lot of folks might say to read the bible and then you find out
their idea of reading the bible is simply you have to read it in the context their so called leader tuaght them it .
WHICH IS BAD NEWS in most cases .
No , i say simply READ the bible for ourselves . Dont try and pick up some other book of some other teacher
and learn it through that . RATHER just read it for you , do so often and daily and watch the beauty that unfolds .
You see i know a secrete . MAN aint GOD . GOD IS GOD . Men who try and tell us
WE need to know their greek and etc and that we cannot understand the bible without THAT
are men who sat under men who sat under men who simply desired one thing .
Now before i say the one thing i want to also say i desire one thing .
What i desire is for folks to KNOW GOD , what they desired was and is POWER AND CONTROL .
They desired a belief that also allowed them to continue in whatever certain sin they desired and to still FEEL saved .
Believe me if i desired a following , I WOULD LONG ago have changed my stragtegy .
MIGHT have sounded a bit more like , HEY READ MY BOOKS and THEN Learn the bible by that standard .
NOPE , i tell folks READ THE BIBLE FOR YOU . FOR YOU . exactly my friend .

 

[Johann]

@Mink57

You asked for the HOW--

Believe, Trust, Faith, and Faithfulness in the Old Testament

I. Opening Statement

It needs to be stated that the use of this theological concept, so crucial to the NT, is not as clearly defined in the OT. It is surely there, but demonstrated in key selected passages and persons.

The OT blends

A. the individual and the community

B. the personal encounter and covenant obedience

Faith is both personal encounter and daily lifestyle! It is easier to describe in the life of a faithful follower than in a lexical form (i.e., word study). This personal aspect is best illustrated in

A. Abraham and his seed

B. David and Israel

These men met/encountered God and their lives were permanently changed (not perfect lives, but continuing faith). Testing revealed weaknesses and strengths of their faith encounter with God, but the intimate, trusting relationship continued through time! It was tested and refined, but it continued as evidenced by their devotion and lifestyle.



II. Main root used

A. אמן (BDB 52, KB 63)

1. verb

a. Qal stem – to support, to nourish (i.e., 2 Kgs. 10:1,5; Esther 2:7, the non-theological usage)

b. Niphal stem – to make sure or firm, to establish, to confirm, to be faithful or trustworthy

(1) of men, Isa. 8:2; 53:1; Jer. 40:14

(2) of things, Isa. 22:23

(3) of God, Deut. 7:9; Isa. 49:7; Jer. 42:5

c. Hiphil stem – to stand firm, to believe, to trust

(1) Abraham believed God, Gen. 15:6

(2) the Israelites in Egypt believed, Exod. 4:31; 14:31 (negated in Deut. 1:32)

(3) Israelites believed YHWH spoke through Moses, Exod. 19:9; Ps. 106:12,24

(4) Ahaz did not trust in God, Isa 7:9

(5) whoever believes in it/him, Isa. 28:16

(6) believe truths about God, Isa. 43:10-12

2. noun (masculine) – faithfulness (i.e., Deut. 32:20; Isa. 25:1; 26:2)

3. adverb – truly, verily, I agree, may it be so (cf. Deut. 27:15-26; 1 Kgs. 1:36; 1 Chr. 16:36; Isa. 65:16; Jer. 11:5; 28:6). This is the liturgical use of "amen" in the OT and NT.

B. אמת (BDB 54, KB 68) feminine noun, firmness, faithfulness, truth

1. of men, Isa. 10:20; 42:3; 48:1

2. of God, Exod. 34:6; Ps. 117:2; Isa. 38:18,19; 61:8

3. of truth, Deut. 32:4; 1 Kgs. 22:16; Ps. 33:4; 98:3; 100:5; 119:30; Jer. 9:5; Zech. 8:16

C. אמונה (BDB 53, KB 62), firmness, steadfastness, fidelity

1. of hands, Exod. 17:12

2. of times, Isa. 33:6

3. of humans, Jer. 5:3; 7:28; 9:2

4. of God, Ps. 40:11; 88:11; 89:1,2,5,8; 119:138



III. Paul’s use of this OT concept

A. Paul bases his new understanding of YHWH and the OT on his personal encounter with Jesus on the road to Damascus (cf. Acts 9:1-19; 22:3-16; 26:9-18).

B. He found OT support for his new understanding in two key OT passages which use the root (אמן).

1. Gen. 15:6 – Abram’s personal encounter initiated by God (Genesis 12) resulted in an obedient life of faith (Genesis 12-22). Paul alludes to this in Romans 4 and Galatians 3.

2. Isa. 28:16 – those who believe in it (i.e., God’s tested and firmly placed cornerstone) will never be

a. Rom. 9:33, "put to shame" or "be disappointed"

b. Rom. 10:11, same as above

3. Hab. 2:4 – those who know the faithful God should live faithful lives (cf. Jer. 7:28). Paul uses this text in Rom. 1:17 and Gal. 3:11 (also note Heb. 10:38).



IV. Peter’s use of the OT concept

A. Peter combines

1. Isa. 8:14 – 1 Pet. 2:8 (stumbling block)

2. Isa. 28:16 – 1 Pet. 2:6 (cornerstone)

3. Ps. 118:22 – 1 Pet 2:7 (rejected stone)

B. He turns the unique language that describes Israel, "a chosen race, a royal priesthood, a holy nation, a people for God’s own possession" from

1. Deut. 10:15; Isa. 43:21

2. Isa. 61:6; 66:21

3. Exod. 19:6; Deut. 7:6

and now uses it for the church’s faith in Christ (cf. 1 Pet. 2;5,9



V. John’s use of the concept

A. Its NT usage

The term "believed" is from the Greek term pisteuō. which can also be translated "believe," "faith," or "trust." For example, the noun does not occur in the Gospel of John, but the verb is used often. In John 2:23-25 there is uncertainty as to the genuineness of the crowd’s commitment to Jesus of Nazareth as the Messiah. Other examples of this superficial use of the term "believe" are in John 8:31-59 and Acts 8:13, 18-24. True biblical faith is more than an initial response. It must be followed by a process of discipleship (cf. Matt. 13:20-22,31-32).

B. Its use with prepositions

1. eis means "into." This unique construction emphasizes believers putting their trust/faith in Jesus

a. into His name (John 1:12; 2:23; 3:18; 1 John 5:13)

b. into Him (John 2:11; 3:15,18; 4:39; 6:40; 7:5,31,39,48; 8:30; 9:36; 10:42; 11:45 48; 12:37,42; Matt. 18:6; Acts 10:43; Phil. 1:29; 1 Pet. 1:8)

c. into Me (John 6:35; 7:38; 11:25,26; 12:44,46; 14:1,12; 16:9; 17:20)

d. into the Son (John 3:36; 9:35; 1 John 5:10)

e. into Jesus (John 12:11; Acts 19:4; Gal. 2:16)

f. into Light (John 12:36)

g. into God (John 14:1)

2. ev means "in" as in John 3:15; Mark 1:15; Acts 5:14

3. epi means "in" or "upon," as in Matt. 27:42; Acts 9:42; 11:17; 16:31; 22:19; Rom. 4:5, 24; 9:33; 10:11; 1 Tim. 1:16; 1 Pet. 2:6

4. the dative case with no preposition as in Gal. 3:6; Acts 18:8; 27:25; 1 John 3:23; 5:10

5. hoti, which means "believe that," gives content as to what to believe

a. Jesus is the Holy One of God (John 6:69)

b. Jesus is the I Am (John 8:24)

c. Jesus is in the Father and the Father is in Him (John 10:38)

d. Jesus is the Messiah (John 11:27; 20:31)

e. Jesus is the Son of God (John 11:27; 20:31)

f. Jesus was sent by the Father (John 11:42; 17:8,21)

g. Jesus is one with the Father (John 14:10-11)

h. Jesus came from the Father (John 16:27,30)

i. Jesus identified Himself in the covenant name of the Father, "I Am" (John 8:24; 13:19)

j. We will live with Him (Rom. 6:8)

k. Jesus died and rose again (1 Thess. 4:14)



VI. Conclusion

A. Biblical faith is the human response to a divine word/promise. God always initiates (i.e., John 6:44,65), but part of this divine communication is the need for humans to respond (i.e., see SPECIAL TOPIC: COVENANT).

1. repentance (see SPECIAL TOPIC: REPENTANCE )

2. faith/trust (see SPECIAL TOPIC: FAITH, BELIEVE, OR TRUST)

3. obedience

4. perseverance (see SPECIAL TOPIC: PERSEVERANCE)

B. Biblical faith is

1. a personal relationship (initial faith)

2. an affirmation of biblical truth (faith in God’s revelation, i.e., Scripture)

3. an appropriate obedient response to it (daily faithfulness)

Biblical faith is not a ticket to heaven or an insurance policy. It is a personal relationship. This is the purpose of creation, humans being made in the image and likeness (cf. Gen. 1:26-27) of God. The issue is "intimacy." God desires fellowship, not a certain theological standing! But fellowship with a holy God demands that the children demonstrate the "family" characteristics (i.e., holiness, cf. Lev. 19:2; Matt. 5:48; 1 Pet. 1:15-16). The Fall (cf. Genesis 3) affected our ability to respond appropriately. Therefore, God acted on our behalf (cf. Ezek. 36:27-38), giving us a "new heart" and a "new spirit," which enables us through faith and repentance to fellowship with Him and obey Him!

All three are crucial. All three must be maintained. The goal is to know God (both Hebrew and Greek senses) and to reflect His character in our lives. The goal of faith is not heaven someday, but Christlikeness every day!

C. Human faithfulness is the result (NT), not the basis (OT) for a relationship with God: human’s faith in His faithfulness; human’s trust in His trustworthiness. The heart of the NT view of salvation is that humans must respond initially and continually to the grace and mercy of God, demonstrated in Christ. He has loved, He has sent, He has provided; we must respond in faith and faithfulness (cf. Eph. 2:8-9 and 10)!

The faithful God wants a faithful people to reveal Himself to a faithless world and bring them to personal faith in Him.


Faith<< Link

 

[Johann]

Here are my 2 cents. I am an annihilationist, so hell seems to a disqualifiying choice. But the narrative of the rich young man, is in the same vein as who will be the greatest of God's Kingdom
Matthew 18
1At the same time came the disciples unto Jesus, saying, Who is the greatest in the kingdom of heaven? 2And Jesus called a little child unto him, and set him in the midst of them, 3And said, Verily I say unto you, Except ye be converted, and become as little children, ye shall not enter into the kingdom of heaven. 4Whosoever therefore shall humble himself as this little child, the same is greatest in the kingdom of heaven. 5And whoso shall receive one such little child in my name receiveth me. 6But whoso shall offend one of these little ones which believe in me, it were better for him that a millstone were hanged about his neck, and that he were drowned in the depth of the sea.

Selling all and giving all to the needy is adhering to loving your neighbour while his obeisance to the law shows in part his love for God. Jesus condemns noone. He wants you to be a son of God too.

There is no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus-but God's wrath is presently abiding on unbelievers.
J.

 

[Eternally Grateful]

I agree. I see words like "faith" and "belief"...and even "love" as umbrella words. Even a phrase like "Do unto others" is an umbrella phrase which other actions fall under.

I don't think we can define ALL actions that fall under faith, belief and love. Small...seemingly small things to us, we may consider as insignificant. But to someone else, well...may just make their day...or even their LIFE.

I could spend the whole day, on my knees, reading the bible, THINKING that by doing so, I'm giving "glory" to God.

Meanwhile, I could leave the house for 10 minutes...see a woman stumble on the sidewalk...and help her to her feet. God may see that small gesture as giving Him more glory than if I had been on my knees, reading the bible for the whole year!

O.k. So, if Faith means to "have a trust" (for example), HOW do we show that we have trust?

What do we think of a person who says they trust someone. But never do what they say? Do they really trust them?

What if that person we say we trust says we are sinners. Who never do any good.. Yet we say we trust that person in what he says yet continue to live the same way..Again, do we really trust that person?

my answer is no..

 

[Mikey-for-sure]

There is no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus-but God's wrath is presently abiding on unbelievers.
J.

You speak correctly. But how about a little flavour.
God's wrath is presently abiding on unbelievers of all stripes,including hypocrites(mark of the beast). When God's Holy Fire cannot produce anymore martyrs (Gold), then His Fire will burn the wastrels (the tares, cogs of the 3 beasts, of heaven,of sea and of earth.

 

[St. SteVen]

You speak correctly. But how about a little flavour.
God's wrath is presently abiding on unbelievers of all stripes,including hypocrites(mark of the beast). When God's Holy Fire cannot produce anymore martyrs (Gold), then His Fire will burn the wastrels (the tares, cogs of the 3 beasts, of heaven,of sea and of earth.

Sounds like a Labor Day BBQ. - LOL
As I understand it, the wood, hay, and stubble burns, but the homeowner will be saved.

1 Corinthians 3:15 NIV
If it is burned up, the builder will suffer loss but yet will be saved—
even though only as one escaping through the flames.

Malachi 3:2 NIV
But who can endure the day of his coming? Who can stand when he appears?
For he will be like a refiner’s fire or a launderer’s soap.

 

[Mikey-for-sure]

Sounds like a Labor Day BBQ. - LOL
As I understand it, the wood, hay, and stubble burns, but the homeowner will be saved.

1 Corinthians 3:15 NIV
If it is burned up, the builder will suffer loss but yet will be saved—
even though only as one escaping through the flames.

Malachi 3:2 NIV
But who can endure the day of his coming? Who can stand when he appears?
For he will be like a refiner’s fire or a launderer’s soap.

As long as I get a chair! But mustn't forget the vino.

Matthew 26:29 But I say unto you, I will not drink henceforth of this fruit of the vine, until that day when I drink it new with you in my Father's kingdom.

Nice Quotes. The soap in the mouth brings back memories!

 

[St. SteVen]

Nice Quotes. The soap in the mouth brings back memories!

LOL
Glad you didn't say the fire brought back memories.

Malachi 3:2 NIV
But who can endure the day of his coming? Who can stand when he appears?
For he will be like a refiner’s fire or a launderer’s soap.

 

[Mikey-for-sure]

LOL
Glad you didn't say the fire brought back memories.

Malachi 3:2 NIV
But who can endure the day of his coming? Who can stand when he appears?
For he will be like a refiner’s fire or a launderer’s soap.

That would not be the mouth. Always good to learn Master's Ways faster.