How to be an honest Christian thinker.

[Episkopos]

How to understand the Bible. Well, to be honest one must take in the whole counsel of God.

Here is an experiment. Take an extreme view based on one verse or two...now..refute that extreme by finding a verse that seems to contradict it. Do it again and again...until you you have a whole list of seeming contradictions.

To know the truth, even in low resolution form...takes BOTH extremes into account.

The range of our perceptions as humans is very narrow. Dogs can hear things and smell things way beyond the range of humans. Eagles can see much better than we do.

If we can admit that animals are superior to us in many perceptions...then why is it so difficult to consider that the writers of the Bible had far more understanding than we do? Do we limit the smell of dogs to what we can smell? Do we limit eagles to what we can see?

So why do we limit God and those whom He reveals Himself to?

God hates an unjust balance.

"A false balance (moznayim) is abomination to the Lord: but a just weight is his delight." Prov. 11:1

The word for balance in Hebrew means "from ears" (plural) moznayim, which means we have to listen with both ears. Now hardly anyone does this. People will accept a notion of the truth as if truth was the same as facts. We are so used to forming our own opinions we don't realize that facts are only for this temporal world. We need an entirely other means to understand eternal truth. And eternal truth always comes to us as a plurality of seeming contradictions. That's why a balanced view is so important.

Our opinions will lead us astray...every time.

We are not to lean on our own understanding. We will certainly close one of our ears unless we have experienced eternal truth on ITS terms...not ours.

 

[Nancy]

How to understand the Bible. Well, to be honest one must take in the whole counsel of God.

Here is an experiment. Take an extreme view based on one verse or two...now..refute that extreme by finding a verse that seems to contradict it. Do it again and again...until you you have a whole list of seeming contradictions.

To know the truth, even in low resolution form...takes BOTH extremes into account.

The range of our perceptions as humans is very narrow. Dogs can hear things and smell things way beyond the range of humans. Eagles can see much better than we do.

If we can admit that animals are superior to us in many perceptions...then why is it so difficult to consider that the writers of the Bible had far more understanding than we do? Do we limit the smell of dogs to what we can smell? Do we limit eagles to what we can see?

So why do we limit God and those whom He reveals Himself to?

God hates an unjust balance.

"A false balance is abomination to the Lord: but a just weight is his delight." Prov. 11:1

The word for balance in Hebrew means "from ears" (plural) moznayim, which means we have to listen with both ears. Now hardly anyone does this. People will accept a notion of the truth as if truth was the same as facts. We are so used to forming our own opinions we don't realize that facts are only for this temporal world. We need an entirely other means to understand eternal truth. And eternal truth always comes to us as a plurality of seeming contradictions. That's why a balanced view is so important.

Our opinions will lead us astray...every time.

We are not to lean on our own understanding. We will certainly close one of our ears unless we have experienced eternal truth on ITS terms...not ours.

I am going to do the experiment Epi, seems a good way to study!

 

[Michiah-Imla]

Take an extreme view based on one verse or two...now..refute that extreme by finding a verse that seems to contradict it

Can you give any examples?

 

[Johann]

Can you give any examples?

No examples given
J.

 

[Episkopos]

Can you give any examples?

Examples...

We are not to judge, as in, judge not lest you be judged.....yet we are to judge righteously. (righteous judgment)

We are to love our wives.......and.....unless we hate our wives we cannot be disciples.

The net as something that catches us into the kingdom....and the net of God that catches the wicked.

Leaven as sin...and leaven as kingdom truth that brings forth good things.

The many righteous...and none are righteous.

Jesus as God.....yet He has a God...the same as we do.

Life working death....and death working life.

The curse of the cross (cursed is he who hangs on a tree) ....the blessing and glory of the cross.

Fear not and perfect love casts out all fear....yet ....the fear of the Lord is the beginning of wisdom

There is no condemnation in Christ...yet Christian teachers will receive the greater condemnation.

These are just a few of many hundreds of such discrepancies...even seeming contradictions. These are necessary to show the difference between the flesh and the Spirit...and righteousness and holiness.

 

[Michiah-Imla]

These are just a few of many hundreds of such discrepancies...

These are resolved with constant reading of the scriptures and having constant varying life experiences to apply each instance. The Spirit also gives us discernment.

“For everyone partaking of milk is unskillful in the Word of Righteousness, for he is an infant. But solid food belongs to those who are of full age, even those who because of use have their senses exercised to discern both good and evil.” (Hebrews 5:13-14)

 

[amigo de christo]

Examples...

We are not to judge, as in, judge not lest you be judged.....yet we are to judge righteously. (righteous judgment)

We are to love our wives.......and.....unless we hate our wives we cannot be disciples.

The net as something that catches us into the kingdom....and the net of God that catches the wicked.

Leaven as sin...and leaven as kingdom truth that brings forth good things.

The many righteous...and none are righteous.

Jesus as God.....yet He has a God...the same as we do.

Life working death....and death working life.

The curse of the cross (cursed is he who hangs on a tree) ....the blessing and glory of the cross.

Fear not and perfect love casts out all fear....yet ....the fear of the Lord is the beginning of wisdom

There is no condemnation in Christ...yet Christian teachers will receive the greater condemnation.

These are just a few of many hundreds of such discrepancies...even seeming contradictions. These are necessary to show the difference between the flesh and the Spirit...and righteousness and holiness.

Judge not by the letter , aka we dont stone witches , gays or etc . We do judge rigtheously by rebuking the error of brethren
and by seperating out the one who is in sin till they repent . Simple enough .
We are to love our wives , yet compared to GOD to Christ we hate them , as in we love GOD above all and put HIM first above all . simple enough .
Leaven is simply used as an example of RISING . And also as in goodness rising . simple enough . no contradictions at all , just a lack
of not being able to rightly divide the word . THERE are no contradictions , ONLY misunderstandings . But if one seeketh GOD
and stays well planted in those bibles it all begins to become very clear . NOW BIBLES OPEN and test all men against BIBLE DOCTRINE at all times .

 

[amigo de christo]

These are resolved with constant reading of the scriptures and having constant varying life experiences to apply each instance. The Spirit also gives us discernment.

“For everyone partaking of milk is unskillful in the Word of Righteousness, for he is an infant. But solid food belongs to those who are of full age, even those who because of use have their senses exercised to discern both good and evil.” (Hebrews 5:13-14)

Yes indeed . most folks will heed teachers that will try and make it seem like the bible contradicts . YET in truth , if we learn
to read it as a whole it begins to come more and more together . And we see that there are NO contradictions
but its simply men not learning it by simply reading it over and over again .
Folks even think that james and paul were at odds in their doctrine . YET again this is a common misunderstanding .
Many folks twist the scrips unto their own destruction , because many folks will not submit to GOD .
The more we read that bible the more it all comes together and we see and know there are no contradictions
and that what seemed to be a contradiction was merely misunderstanding on the part of the individual .
But i have come to remind folks to get back into bibles and start to read for themselves . Praying unto GOD
and HE will give the wisdom and understanding that one truly does need .

 

[MatthewG]

Hello @Episkopos, sorry friend, I do not see animals as superior to human beings. God created Man to be able to dominate over them. However you are right about being a critical thinker is important, but so is studying the Bible.

• 2 Timothy 2:15 be diligent to present thyself approved to God -- a workman irreproachable, rightly dividing the word of the truth;

 

[Episkopos]

Yes indeed . most folks will heed teachers that will try and make it seem like the bible contradicts . YET in truth , if we learn
to read it as a whole it begins to come more and more together . And we see that there are NO contradictions
but its simply men not learning it by simply reading it over and over again .
Folks even think that james and paul were at odds in their doctrine . YET again this is a common misunderstanding .
Many folks twist the scrips unto their own destruction , because many folks will not submit to GOD .
The more we read that bible the more it all comes together and we see and know there are no contradictions
and that what seemed to be a contradiction was merely misunderstanding on the part of the individual .
But i have come to remind folks to get back into bibles and start to read for themselves . Praying unto GOD
and HE will give the wisdom and understanding that one truly does need .

You think you understand what I'm talking about...ok...Explain how Christian teachers get the greater condemnation if there is no condemnation in Christ. Explain how that Christian teachers are not in Christ. And greater condemnation means that lesser Christians can also receive condemnation.

And explain this from the Bible.

What does it mean to be in Christ?

 

[Episkopos]

Hello @Episkopos, sorry friend, I do not see animals as superior to human beings. God created Man to be able to dominate over them. However you are right about being a critical thinker is important, but so is studying the Bible.

• 2 Timothy 2:15 be diligent to present thyself approved to God -- a workman irreproachable, rightly dividing the word of the truth;

Your perceptions is what I was talking about...and your perceptions on a human scale seem to be lacking. Re-read what I actually said.

 

[MatthewG]

You are right, I did read wrongly, that is sometimes the fault of us human beings wouldn't you say?

 

[Episkopos]

You are right, I did read wrongly, that is sometimes the fault of us human beings wouldn't you say?

You may actually be understanding the purpose of my thread.

 

[amigo de christo]

You think you understand what I'm talking about...ok...Explain how Christian teachers get the greater condemnation if there is no condemnation in Christ. Explain how that Christian teachers are not in Christ. And greater condemnation means that lesser Christians can also receive condemnation.

And explain this from the Bible.

What does it mean to be in Christ?

The word is be ye not many masters . And the truth is those who often lead the church are the first ones that govts and men
often go after . Believing if they can silence the voice of the leader they will have the support of the church .
It was the apostels and those often in mature leadership positions that were first targeted . BUT , persecution will
and does come against all the lambs . Condemnation from MEN my friend . James was not speaking of condemantion from GOD .
LEST the leader teachers falsey , then oh yes its gonna be held in serious accounatability before GOD for the false it did teach .
Hope that helps .

 

[MatthewG]

How to understand the Bible. Well, to be honest one must take in the whole counsel of God.

It would be very good to take in the whole of scripture, from the Old Testament, even to the New Testament, and the Letters. Because it all boils down to having revelation from God, when prayerfully reading and looking to understand and have your mind and heart open to receive spiritual truths that are revealed in these writings, lead by the Holy Spirit which should produce fruit of love, over all things, in faith.

Here is an experiment. Take an extreme view based on one verse or two...now..refute that extreme by finding a verse that seems to contradict it. Do it again and again...until you you have a whole list of seeming contradictions.

To know the truth, even in low resolution form...takes BOTH extremes into account.

That is a good experiment to take, I suppose with whatever subject it may be that you wanna look at - even such as Eternal Punishment is one that can have a huge extreme for some, or even some studies that deal with only Jesus having paid for the sins of the elect compared to the whole world. Learning both sides, would give you a perspective.

One thing that helps a lot, is actually learning about Hebrew and Greek words for a refined definition to words that were understood by a Jewish/Hebrew audience mainly ever before it came to being translated in English.

The range of our perceptions as humans is very narrow. Dogs can hear things and smell things way beyond the range of humans. Eagles can see much better than we do.

If we can admit that animals are superior to us in many perceptions...then why is it so difficult to consider that the writers of the Bible had far more understanding than we do? Do we limit the smell of dogs to what we can smell? Do we limit eagles to what we can see?

Then why is it so difficult to consider that the writers of the Bible had far more understanding we do: They would have indeed knowing their audiences and how their audience had wrote and spoke.

So why do we limit God and those whom He reveals Himself to?

God hates an unjust balance.

"A false balance (moznayim) is abomination to the Lord: but a just weight is his delight." Prov. 11:1

The word for balance in Hebrew means "from ears" (plural) moznayim, which means we have to listen with both ears. Now hardly anyone does this. People will accept a notion of the truth as if truth was the same as facts. We are so used to forming our own opinions we don't realize that facts are only for this temporal world. We need an entirely other means to understand eternal truth. And eternal truth always comes to us as a plurality of seeming contradictions. That's why a balanced view is so important.

At this point you have made your case in the important of learning about the culture, and the words they used. To listen and pay attention to what is being said and who is being spoken about and what is is being addressed. The old who, what, when, where, how, and why? In questioning, however Listening by taking in the full context of what is being written about or said by other individuals.

 

[Episkopos]

The word is be ye not many masters . And the truth is those who often lead the church are the first ones that govts and men
often go after . Believing if they can silence the voice of the leader they will have the support of the church .
It was the apostels and those often in mature leadership positions that were first targeted . BUT , persecution will
and does come against all the lambs . Condemnation from MEN my friend . James was not speaking of condemantion from GOD .
LEST the leader teachers falsey , then oh yes its gonna be held in serious accounatability before GOD for the false it did teach .
Hope that helps .

See, you don't understand the deeper level that indeed condemnation is from God....not men. Being condemned by men is a good thing. Blessed are you when men hate you for My name's sake. But you are missing an entire dimension of the truth. You are shutting down your ears so that the truth cannot penetrate ...which is the subject of this thread. You are doing precisely what is unwise and unbalanced.

Not all in Israel are OF Israel. Not all Christians that are in Christ are OF Christ. One is corporate and the other is individual.

Paul spoke of not taking on a novice believer as an overseer lest he fall under the condemnation of the devil. So in your way of thinking that would be a good thing...since it is ok to be condemned by the devil (which is the same kind of misunderstanding you are making with the other example) . But what if it actually means to be condemned WITH the devil. (which it does) That goes beyond your understanding of what it means to be in Christ. It takes some humility to admit that. I don't see humility around here...among believers.

To be balanced you would have to say that in Christ there is no condemnation from men and weigh that against your opinion that the greater condemnation of teachers is from men. Then you have a just weight.

Do you understand balance?

Do you actually know what it means to not trust your own understanding?

 

[Johann]

You think you understand what I'm talking about...ok...Explain how Christian teachers get the greater condemnation if there is no condemnation in Christ. Explain how that Christian teachers are not in Christ. And greater condemnation means that lesser Christians can also receive condemnation.

And explain this from the Bible.

What does it mean to be in Christ?

2Co_3:9 For if the ministration of condemnation be glory, much more doth the ministration of righteousness exceed in glory.
1Ti_3:6 Not a novice, lest being lifted up with pride he fall into the condemnation of the devil.

Jas_3:1 My brethren, be not many masters, knowing that we shall receive the greater condemnation.


Jas 3:1 Speak Wisely
¶ Not many of you should become teachers, my brothers, because you know that we who teach [The Gk. lacks who teach] will be judged more severely than others. [The Gk. lacks than others]
Jas 3:2 For all of us make many mistakes. If someone does not make any mistakes when he speaks, he is perfect and able to control his whole body.

I personally like this version....

Jas 3:1 Not many of you, Achim b'Moshiach, should be Morim for Moshiach, als (since), as far as concerns Mishpat Hashem, you have da'as that we Messianic morim will have the chomer haDin (rigor of the Law) fall on us more severely.
Jas 3:2 For all of us stumble variously. If anyone as far as lashon hora is concerned, does not stumble, this one is an ish tamim able to bridle also the entire guf (body). [1Kgs 8:46; Ps 39:1; Prov 10:19]
OJB


Be not many teachers (mē polloi didaskaloi ginesthe). Prohibition with mē and present middle imperative of ginomai. “Stop becoming many teachers” (so many of you). There is thus a clear complaint that too many of the Jewish Christians were attempting to teach what they did not clearly comprehend.

There was a call for wise teachers (Jas_2:13.), not for foolish ones. This soon became an acute question, as one can see in 1 Cor. 12 to chapter 14.

They were not all teachers (1Co_12:28.; 1Co_14:26). The teacher is here treated as the wise man (Jas_3:13-18) as he ought to be. The rabbi was the teacher (Mat_23:7.; Joh_1:38; Joh_3:10; Joh_20:16). Teachers occupied an honourable position among the Christians (Eph_4:11; Act_13:1).

James counts himself a teacher (we shall receive, Jas_3:1) and this discussion is linked on with Jas_1:19-27. Teachers are necessary, but incompetent and unworthy ones do much harm.

Heavier judgment (meizon krima). “Greater sentence.” See Mar_12:40; Luk_20:47 for perrisoteron krima (the sentence from the judge, Rom_13:2). The reason is obvious. The pretence of knowledge adds to the teacher’s responsibility and condemnation.
Robertson

Guess these teachers were not really "teachers" @Episkopos.



Jas_5:12 But above all things, my brethren, swear not, neither by heaven, neither by the earth, neither by any other oath: but let your yea be yea; and your nay, nay; lest ye fall into condemnation.

Another of those "gray" scriptures, let your yea be yea, and nay be nay...does it mean we cant say more than "yea" and "nay?"

J.

 

[Episkopos]

Guess these teachers were not really "teachers" @Episkopos

Ah...but that takes discernment. Many will say Lord Lord.....those who we think are teachers today..with famous names. But there is no understanding in them, or wisdom, or fear of the Lord. Many false prophets are the most famous Bible teachers. The depth lies in understand how they are wrong.

Jas_5:12 But above all things, my brethren, swear not, neither by heaven, neither by the earth, neither by any other oath: but let your yea be yea; and your nay, nay; lest ye fall into condemnation.

Another of those "gray" scriptures, let your yea be yea, and nay be nay...does it mean we cant say more than "yea" and "nay?"

J.

Yes, good point. Can we preach the gospel by only saying yes and no?

 

[Johann]

2Co_3:9 For if the ministration of condemnation be glory, much more doth the ministration of righteousness exceed in glory.
1Ti_3:6 Not a novice, lest being lifted up with pride he fall into the condemnation of the devil.

Jas_3:1 My brethren, be not many masters, knowing that we shall receive the greater condemnation.


Jas 3:1 Speak Wisely
¶ Not many of you should become teachers, my brothers, because you know that we who teach [The Gk. lacks who teach] will be judged more severely than others. [The Gk. lacks than others]
Jas 3:2 For all of us make many mistakes. If someone does not make any mistakes when he speaks, he is perfect and able to control his whole body.

I personally like this version....

Jas 3:1 Not many of you, Achim b'Moshiach, should be Morim for Moshiach, als (since), as far as concerns Mishpat Hashem, you have da'as that we Messianic morim will have the chomer haDin (rigor of the Law) fall on us more severely.
Jas 3:2 For all of us stumble variously. If anyone as far as lashon hora is concerned, does not stumble, this one is an ish tamim able to bridle also the entire guf (body). [1Kgs 8:46; Ps 39:1; Prov 10:19]
OJB


Be not many teachers (mē polloi didaskaloi ginesthe). Prohibition with mē and present middle imperative of ginomai. “Stop becoming many teachers” (so many of you). There is thus a clear complaint that too many of the Jewish Christians were attempting to teach what they did not clearly comprehend.

There was a call for wise teachers (Jas_2:13.), not for foolish ones. This soon became an acute question, as one can see in 1 Cor. 12 to chapter 14.

They were not all teachers (1Co_12:28.; 1Co_14:26). The teacher is here treated as the wise man (Jas_3:13-18) as he ought to be. The rabbi was the teacher (Mat_23:7.; Joh_1:38; Joh_3:10; Joh_20:16). Teachers occupied an honourable position among the Christians (Eph_4:11; Act_13:1).

James counts himself a teacher (we shall receive, Jas_3:1) and this discussion is linked on with Jas_1:19-27. Teachers are necessary, but incompetent and unworthy ones do much harm.

Heavier judgment (meizon krima). “Greater sentence.” See Mar_12:40; Luk_20:47 for perrisoteron krima (the sentence from the judge, Rom_13:2). The reason is obvious. The pretence of knowledge adds to the teacher’s responsibility and condemnation.
Robertson

Guess these teachers were not really "teachers" @Episkopos.

Be not many masters - Do not affect the teacher’s office, for many wish to be teachers who have more need to learn. There were many teachers or rabbins among the Jews, each affecting to have The truth, and to draw disciples after him. We find a caution against such persons, and of the same nature with that of St. James, in Pirkey Aboth, c. i. 10: Love labor, and hate the rabbin’s office.

This caution is still necessary; there are multitudes, whom God has never called, and never can call, because he has never qualified them for the work, who earnestly wish to get into the priest’s office.

And of this kind, in opposition to St. James, we have many masters - persons who undertake to show us the way of salvation, who know nothing of that ways and are unsaved themselves.

These are found among all descriptions of Christians, and have been the means of bringing the ministerial office into contempt. Their case is awful; they shall receive greater condemnation than common sinners; they have not only sinned in thrusting themselves into that office to which God has never called them, but through their insufficiency the flocks over whom they have assumed the mastery perish for lack of knowledge, and their blood will God require at the watchman’s hand. A man may have this mastery according to the law of the land, and yet not have it according to the Gospel; another may affect to have it according to the Gospel, because he dissents from the religion of the state, and not have it according to Christ. Blockheads are common, and knaves and hypocrites may be found everywhere.
Ol' Adam Clarke...many blockheads are common, hypocrites everywhere...
J.




Jas_5:12 But above all things, my brethren, swear not, neither by heaven, neither by the earth, neither by any other oath: but let your yea be yea; and your nay, nay; lest ye fall into condemnation.

Another of those "gray" scriptures, let your yea be yea, and nay be nay...does it mean we cant say more than "yea" and "nay?"

J.

 

[Johann]

Ah...but that takes discernment. Many will say Lord Lord.....those who we think are teachers today..with famous names. But there is no understanding in them, or wisdom, or fear of the Lord. Many false prophets are the most famous Bible teachers. The depth lies in understand how they are wrong.

1Jn 4:1 Test What People Say
¶ Dear friends, stop believing [Or do not believe] every spirit. Instead, test the spirits to see whether they are from God, because many false prophets have gone out into the world.


Beloved, believe not every spirit - Do not be forward to believe every teacher to be a man sent of God. As in those early times every teacher professed to be inspired by the Spirit of God, because all the prophets had come thus accredited, the term spirit was used to express the man who pretended to be and teach under the Spirit’s influence. See 1Co_12:1-12; 1Ti_4:1.
Try the Spirits - Δοκιμαζετε τα πνευματα· Put these teachers to the proof. Try them by that testimony which is known to have come from the Spirit of God, the word of revelation already given.
Many false prophets - Teachers not inspired by the Spirit of God, are gone out into the world - among the Jewish people particularly, and among them who are carnal and have not the Spirit.

I understand what you are driving at in your post @Episkopos.

Shalom
J.