Infant baptism is not the subject we are discussing. Let's keep to adults and discuss infants later.
How to be saved (born again) and join the family of God!!!
- Thread starter GISMYS_7
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I don't think baptising under the Niagara falls is practical.
Baptism (in water) is where we are baptised into the body of Christ.
Perhaps, according to you. I have addressed Mk.16:16 which you have not refuted.
And I have brought to your attention the context of 1 Pet.3:21, which you also ignored.
Tong
R4776
Not if you are familiar with scriptures.
And I just see a repeat of citing Scriptures which I already had addressed which you have not refuted.
And who says I don’t believe those scriptures you cited? I do believe all scriptures. Only not what you take them to mean.
Tong
R4777
It's a diversion.
If I am wrong about Adult baptism then I must be wrong about infant baptism.
But if I am right about adult baptism then that doesn't necessarily mean I am right about infant baptism. So disproving infant baptism does necessarily disprove adult baptism.
That is why it is a diversion at the moment.
Of course it is not. It’s about baptism. Whether it be for the young or the old, does not matter. It is baptism which you say is necessary for salvation.
There is no such thing as adult baptism and infant baptism in scriptures.
Tong
R4779
amigo de christo
Well-Known Member
That was why phillip made sure the eunach actually believed with his whole heart in JESUS .
The eunach asked phillip , he said SEE here is water ,what does HINDER ME , HINDER ME from being baptized .
And phillip said , IF YOU BELIEVE ..................you may be baptized . Baptism is not for unbelievers , but for believers .
The FAITH IN JESUS ALONE is what saved a soul . But if we are HIS then we would then be hearers and doers of His word .
Baptism is FOR BELIEVERS . Any sinner can get baptized to please someone , IT WONT save them .
Yes indeed gismy . The focus must be on BELIEVING IN JESUS or nothing else will have mattered .
Not even if i did many good works , was baptized , fed many , IF MY FAITH was NOT IN JESUS ALONE as THE ONLY SAVOIR
then it was all dead works and profits me nothing . Yes indeed . Now , let all that draws breath praise the wonderous
and glorious Lord .
It is because you could easily argue that personal belief is necessary for salvation and that infants cannot personally believe.
I didn't say that baptism was necessary for salvation.
From post #65
Baptism is the normal way that Jesus gave us to be saved under the New Covenant.
We are not normally saved by faith alone and Scripture doesn't say we are.
I say normal and normally because God can always make exceptions if he chooses to. But it is God who chooses how we are saved not us.
When i asked to be baptised a few years after I became a born again Christian my vicar wouldn't do it as according to Anglican tradition my infant Christening counted as baptism. But to me it didn't as God was telling me to get baptised.
Acts 22:16
And now what are you waiting for? Get up, be baptized and wash your sins away, calling on his name.’
The lovely vicar wasn't able to do it so I joined a church that would. But they made very sure that I really was born again/saved before they would do it.
Also this verse says that these people had received the Holy Spirit before they were baptized so they MUST already have been saved.
Acts 10:47
“Surely no one can stand in the way of their being baptized with water. They have received the Holy Spirit just as we have.”
Acts 22:16
And now what are you waiting for? Get up, be baptized and wash your sins away, calling on his name.’
The lovely vicar wasn't able to do it so I joined a church that would. But they made very sure that I really was born again/saved before they would do it.
Also this verse says that these people had received the Holy Spirit before they were baptized so they MUST already have been saved.
Acts 10:47
“Surely no one can stand in the way of their being baptized with water. They have received the Holy Spirit just as we have.”
Your vicar was correct. You were born again when you were baptised as an infant.
The incident with Cornelius is a special case and not a good example to generalise from. Consider the following.
1. Peter was sent to Cornelius as a demonstration to Peter and the Church that they must include the Gentiles in their mission. As James says after Peter recalled the incident in Acts 15 - “Symeon has described how God first concerned himself with acquiring from among the Gentiles a people for his name.” (Acts 15:14). This incident therefore was God’s initiative to begin bringing the gentiles into the Church.
2. This was the second part of God’s fulfilling the prophecy of Joel that Peter quoted at Pentecost.
“‘It will come to pass in the last days,’ God says, ‘that I will pour out a portion of my spirit upon all flesh’”.
For the Jews mankind was divided into two – Jews and Gentiles. At Pentecost God poured out his Spirit on the Jews. Now with Cornelius God is pouring out his Spirit on the Gentiles.
3. The third point to note is that Cornelius is not just any old Gentile. He is a “God-fearer”, a Gentile who was almost converted to Judaism who often attended the synagogue (see Acts 13:16) and kept the Jewish prayer times – as Cornelius was when the Angel visited him.
“Now in Caesarea there was a man named Cornelius, a centurion of the Cohort called the Italica, devout and God-fearing along with his whole household, who used to give alms generously to the Jewish people and pray to God constantly. One afternoon about three o’clock, he saw plainly in a vision an angel of God come in to him” (Acts 10:1-3).
4. Cornelius was also a righteous man, acceptable to God. The angel said to Cornelius:
““Your prayers and almsgiving have ascended as a memorial offering before God. (Acts 10:4)
“Cornelius, your prayer has been heard and your almsgiving remembered before God.” (Acts 10:31)
The whole incident is therefore unique.
As I have pointed out before:-
From post #65
Baptism is the normal way that Jesus gave us to be saved under the New Covenant.
We are not normally saved by faith alone and Scripture doesn't say we are.
I say normal and normally because God can always make exceptions if he chooses to. But it is God who chooses how we are saved not us.
Peter knew that baptism was still necessary to bring Cornelius and his household into the Church, into the New Covenant.
I absolutely wasn't. And my vicar was very sympathetic to my request and only tradition prevented him from baptizing me. One has to choose spiritual re-birth and infants can't make that choice. I know my re-birthday.
This really concerns me that Catholics think they are born again because they received so-called baptism as infants. They are SO deceived and because they believe they are already born again they accept it and do nothing further and so are lost.
They need to be taught that they need a relationship with Jesus in order to be born again. They need to be taught that unless they accept Jesus on personal level by their own choice and not choices made by another person they are not saved or born again. Catholicism is damaging to spiritual health and should carry a warning telling people they are being deceived. But they seem to think it's okay to just carry on regardless. Happily though some do see the light and make the breakthrough and some even leave the Catholic Church for truth.
I pray that their eyes might be open so that they can become aware of the lies they are being taught by those they respect.
No offence to anybody personally is intended by my comments.
I did refute your position and did no dodging.
Here, let me refresh you of my refutation of your position with regards Mk.16:16.
<<<The 3000 were saved because they believed and were baptised.
He who believes and is baptized will be saved (Mk 16:16)>>>
You seem to be suggesting that the 3000 individuals who believed would not have been saved if they were not baptized? So, if you preached the gospel and Jesus Christ to somebody, and that somebody believed, but had not had himself baptized in and by the RC church, is he not saved?
It seems you just are ignoring what you read in my discussion regarding Mk.16:16. So, I will repeat myself here.
Mark 16:16 says “He who believes and is baptized will be saved; but he who does not believe will be condemned.”
He who does not believe will not be saved but will be condemned. But he who believes, will he be saved? Yes. One who is baptized, at least in the proper sense, is taken to be a believer. He is saved not because he got baptized, but because he believes. It follows then that one who does not believe and just got himself baptized, for whatever reason, or was baptized for whatever reason other than that because he believes, will not be saved. One is not saved and will be condemned, not because he was not baptized, but because he did not believe.
He who believes and is baptized will be saved (Mk 16:16)>>>
You seem to be suggesting that the 3000 individuals who believed would not have been saved if they were not baptized? So, if you preached the gospel and Jesus Christ to somebody, and that somebody believed, but had not had himself baptized in and by the RC church, is he not saved?
It seems you just are ignoring what you read in my discussion regarding Mk.16:16. So, I will repeat myself here.
Mark 16:16 says “He who believes and is baptized will be saved; but he who does not believe will be condemned.”
He who does not believe will not be saved but will be condemned. But he who believes, will he be saved? Yes. One who is baptized, at least in the proper sense, is taken to be a believer. He is saved not because he got baptized, but because he believes. It follows then that one who does not believe and just got himself baptized, for whatever reason, or was baptized for whatever reason other than that because he believes, will not be saved. One is not saved and will be condemned, not because he was not baptized, but because he did not believe.
And here’s Acts 16:30-31 that speaks of a question and gives the answer which support my refutation of your take of Mk.16:16 concerning only a part of it even.
30 And he brought them out and said, “Sirs, what must I do to be saved?”
31 So they said, “Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and you will be saved, you and your household.”
Now, regarding 1 Peter 3:21, which I said you consider context. If you already had done so, here are a few questions for you:
Tell us, according to the context, what was Peter referring to as the type and as the antitype?
Verse 21 at the end says “through the resurrection of Jesus Christ”. What is the significance of that with regards to what Peter was saying in v.21?
Also, what salvation was Peter talking about there?
Tong
R4780
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<<<It is because you could easily argue that personal belief is necessary for salvation and that infants cannot personally believe.>>>
And so? Do you not believe and teach what RCC teaches about salvation and baptism?
<<<I didn't say that baptism was necessary for salvation.>>>
That’s good then. At least you deny that baptism was necessary for salvation.
So what do you mean by your post “belief + baptism = salvation”, if you are not saying that baptism is necessary for salvation?
Tong
R4781
<<<The lovely vicar wasn't able to do it so I joined a church that would. But they made very sure that I really was born again/saved before they would do it. >>>
Just curious. How was that?
Tong
R4782
In Acts 2:15-36 peter preaches to them.
Then
37 Now when they heard this they were cut to the heart, and said to Peter and the rest of the apostles, “Brethren, what shall we do?
38 And Peter said to them, “Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins; and you shall receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.
39 For the promise is to you and to your children and to all that are far off, every one whom the Lord our God calls to him.”
40 And he testified with many other words and exhorted them, saying, “Save yourselves from this crooked generation.”
41 So those who received his word were baptized, and there were added that day about three thousand souls.
Did you read that carefully.
vs 37 - they believe what Peters says because they were "cut to the heart" and asked "what shall we do?"
vs 38 Peter told them they needed to be baptised to have their sins forgiven.
Do you think they were saved and not had their sins forgiven?
vs 40 Peter carries on preaching telling them they needed to be saved - so not yet saved despite believing.
vs 41 Those that received the word were baptised
Now you have belief + baptism = salvation, as shown because it says they were added to the Church.
Yes I agree
He will be saved IF he gets baptised. The text doesn't say he will be saved just because he believes
In the proper sense?
Where is that in the text?
That is not what the text says.
The discussion is not about people who don 't believe and get baptised.
That's not what the text says. It only says that those who do not believe will be condemned.
The issue of what happens when:
a) someone believes but is not baptised
b) does not believe but is baptised
is not addressed.
The text only addresses those who believe and are baptised (=saved), and those who do not believe (=condemned). Other possibilities are not addressed and any conclusions you draw are you personal opinions not based on Scripture.
I'll come back to the rest of your post later.
This is typical of clipping a verse out of context.
Firstly Paul didn't say Only believe....
Nowhere in Scripture does it say we are saved by faith alone. That is a mnan-made invention that you are trying to read into texts and it's not there.
Secondly if you carry on reading
32 And they spoke the word of the Lord to him and to all that were in his house.
33 And he took them the same hour of the night, and washed their wounds, and he was baptized at once, with all his family
34 Then he brought them up into his house, and set food before them; and he rejoiced with all his household that he had believed in God.
Paul preached to them and then baptised them at once. - even before they went and had any food.
That shows how important baptism is. It is part of the process of being saved.
Dodging again.
If you don't believe Peter when he said "Baptism, which corresponds to this, now saves you," then explain why you think Scripture is wrong.
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