How To Get To Heaven When You Die

[ATP]

Here I demonstrate from Scripture that soul sleep is not a biblical teaching: 'Soul sleep: A refutation'.

What are your thoughts on...

Job 34:14-15 NIV If it were his intention and he withdrew his spirit and breath, 15all humanity would perish together and mankind would return to the dust.

Psalm 146:4 NIV When their spirit departs, they return to the ground; on that very day their plans come to nothing.

Eccl 3:19-20 NIV Surely the fate of human beings is like that of the animals; the same fate awaits them both: As one dies, so dies the other. All have the same breath ; humans have no advantage over animals. Everything is meaningless. 20All go to the same place; all come from dust, and to dust all return.

Acts 17:25 NIV And he is not served by human hands, as if he needed anything, because he himself gives all men life and breath and everything else.

James 2:26 NIV As the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without deeds is dead.

Rev 11:11 NIV But after the three and a half days the breath of life from God entered them, and they stood on their feet, and terror struck those who saw them.

 

[Barrd]

Sure but the Sabbath that we have in the NT has nothing to do with not working or cooking etc etc on a Saturday.

That was my point. I can have a Sabbath of rest without all the stuff about not cooking or not kindling a fire. I can swim or go for a drive or anything else I want to do, as long as it doesn't involve asking someone else to work for me.
Jesus says that the Sabbath was made for man. I am a member of that category, therefore the Sabbath belongs to me. My Lord is also Lord of the Sabbath. Therefore I may enjoy this gift. The Lord of the Sabbath says that it is lawful to do good on the Sabbath. So, if you think that the good that I am doing is somehow against the rules for the Sabbath, I would suggest that you take it up with Him.
The only approval I need for my family Sabbaths is His.
Although I appreciate everyone else's kind advice...thank you.

 

[Barrd]

Jesus is not God the Father. He is God, one member of the Trinity.

Are you non-Trinitarian?

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From The Barrd's pen:

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Trinity​

Lo, here is a mystery​

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Our God, Who is Three in One​

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Behold, the Holy Trinity​

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The Father, The Spirit and The Son​

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More than we can understand​

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How can such a strange thing be​

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We cannot, with the mind of man​

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Comprehend infinity​

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We must simply trust His Word​

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Believe that He is One in Three​

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For we know "Thus saith the Lord"​

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That is enough for you and me​

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Perhaps that answers your question?

 

[ATP]

Heaven has existed since the beginning. Lazarus went to heaven, also called Abraham's bosom.

Gill:

and was carried by the angels into Abraham's bosom: by Abraham's bosom is meant heaven, a phrase well known to the Jews, by which they commonly expressed the happiness of the future state: of Abraham's happy state they had no doubt; and when they spake of the happiness of another's, they sometimes signified it by going to Abraham

http://www.christianityboard.com/topic/21079-your-thoughts-on-ten-verses/page-5#entry255678

 

[OzSpen]

What are your thoughts on...

Job 34:14-15 NIV If it were his intention and he withdrew his spirit and breath, 15all humanity would perish together and mankind would return to the dust.

Psalm 146:4 NIV When their spirit departs, they return to the ground; on that very day their plans come to nothing.

Eccl 3:19-20 NIV Surely the fate of human beings is like that of the animals; the same fate awaits them both: As one dies, so dies the other. All have the same breath ; humans have no advantage over animals. Everything is meaningless. 20All go to the same place; all come from dust, and to dust all return.

Acts 17:25 NIV And he is not served by human hands, as if he needed anything, because he himself gives all men life and breath and everything else.

James 2:26 NIV As the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without deeds is dead.

Rev 11:11 NIV But after the three and a half days the breath of life from God entered them, and they stood on their feet, and terror struck those who saw them.

Would you please summarise the issues you are raising from these verses? Are you asking for the differentiation - if any - between breath and spirit/soul in OT and NT?

 

[ATP]

Would you please summarise the issues you are raising from these verses? Are you asking for the differentiation - if any - between breath and spirit/soul in OT and NT?

Sure. These verses confirm that without the breath of life in us there is no life. We die and then we come alive again at the first resurrection. God breathes the breath of life into us again at the first resurrection.

 

[OzSpen]

Nowhere in scripture does it speak of having a spirit body, and you have yet to show me scripture to prove this. Either the breath of life is in us or it's not. This is not rocket science.

Are you discussing the immaterial part of human beings and what happens to those immaterial parts at death? Does a human being have an unseen soul/spirit on earth? Is this one of the issues you are raising?

 

[ATP]

Are you discussing the immaterial part of human beings and what happens to those immaterial parts at death? Does a human being have an unseen soul/spirit on earth? Is this one of the issues you are raising?

What I'm saying is that the body, soul and spirit cannot exist without each other. God created man FIRST, THEN He GAVE us a spirit by breathing into us. God didn't create our spirit first and breathed flesh into our spirits NO! God created MAN first Gen 2:7 NIV. God gave us a temple for our spirits to dwell in, which is our flesh. One cannot exist without the other.

 

[OzSpen]

He was in hell/hades.

Wait a minute. I thought Hades was supposed to be some sort of waiting room for the damned?
You are confusing me, here...

Would you please back-quote so that I know to which post you are referring?

 

[OzSpen]

I'm a born again christian who studies Hebrew and Greek, and I'm simply going by what scripture plainly says about the breath of life.

ATP,

I also am a born again, evangelical Christian who reads and has taught NT Greek. I read the NT in the original language and cannot conclude that it teaches soul sleep for believers or unbelievers at death. See my article, What is the nature of death according to the Bible?

Oz

 

[ATP]

ATP,

I also am a born again, evangelical Christian who reads and has taught NT Greek. I read the NT in the original language and cannot conclude that it teaches soul sleep for believers or unbelievers at death. See my article, What is the nature of death according to the Bible?

Oz

How would you exist without the breath of life in you though.

 

[OzSpen]

How would you exist without the breath of life in you though.

That's not the topic of this thread. It's about how to get to heaven when you die? What happens at death so that a person will go (eventually) to heaven?

Or, are you saying that there is no heaven and that at death the breath of life leaves us so that we are nothing more than a body with the life snuffed out? What point are you trying to make in asking me this question?

 

[Barrd]

If the story of Lazarus and the rich man is literal, several questions arise.
First of all, why is this Hadean realm look so much like the Greek underworld? The only things missing are Cerberus, the three headed dog, and the ferryman plying the Styx for your boating pleasure...

More to the point:
Why does Lazarus insist on coming to this person's gate to be fed? Hasn't he figured out that this guy isn't going to do anything for him? Surely there are other places he could go for help? Why doesn't he hang out with the other beggars around the Temple grounds?
What's with the sores? Has he got some sort of disease? Maybe that's why the rich man doesn't want him around...
Are the dogs in the story pets, or are they wild dogs? If they're wild, why don't they just tear Lazarus apart and eat him? And if they are pets, why isn't their owner keeping them under control? I know I would not let my little dog lick some strange beggar's sores.

Which brings me to the most important question of all...

Suppose....just suppose for a minute....that some diseased beggar, ragged and covered in sores, kept showing up at your door, begging to be fed with the crumbs from your table? What would you do?
Be honest now...
Some of us might give him some leftovers, if we have any...a few might even give him some money.
But if he kept coming back, I think most of us would probably call the police....

 

[ewq1938]

If the story of Lazarus and the rich man is literal, several questions arise.
First of all, why is this Hadean realm look so much like the Greek underworld? The only things missing are Cerberus, the three headed dog, and the ferryman plying the Styx for your boating pleasure...

You are making the case that it doesn't match the Greek underworld. Also don't forget who told this story, Jesus! I am willing to bet he knows what happens to people when they die and can describe Hades.

 

[Barrd]

You are making the case that it doesn't match the Greek underworld. Also don't forget who told this story, Jesus! I am willing to bet he knows what happens to people when they die and can describe Hades.

And I'd also bet that, living in a time when Greek influence was everywhere, He would tell His parable in terms that the people would be familiar with.

If I were going to tell a story to, say, people in an African village, I would not tell it in the same way I would if I were addressing a group of suburbanites from L.A. And vice-versa.
The monks who went about, bringing Christianity to the pagan world, knew this principle. That is how so many pagan ideas...like Christmas trees and Easter eggs...have infiltrated our faith.
Not that I see anything wrong with that...but I very much doubt that Jesus is describing an actual place, here. It is too much like the Greek myth...

Anyway, you neglected to answer my important questions:

Why does Lazarus insist on coming to this person's gate to be fed? Hasn't he figured out that this guy isn't going to do anything for him? Surely there are other places he could go for help? Why doesn't he hang out with the other beggars around the Temple grounds?
What's with the sores? Has he got some sort of disease? Maybe that's why the rich man doesn't want him around...
Are the dogs in the story pets, or are they wild dogs? If they're wild, why don't they just tear Lazarus apart and eat him? And if they are pets, why isn't their owner keeping them under control? I know I would not let my little dog lick some strange beggar's sores.

Which brings me to the most important question of all...

Suppose....just suppose for a minute....that some diseased beggar, ragged and covered in sores, kept showing up at your door, begging to be fed with the crumbs from your table? What would you do?
Be honest now...
Some of us might give him some leftovers, if we have any...a few might even give him some money.
But if he kept coming back, I think most of us would probably call the police....

I'm curious, EWQ...suppose Lazarus had chosen your back door?
There he is, with his sores, and the dogs licking them...every day.
What will you do?

 

[ATP]

That's not the topic of this thread. It's about how to get to heaven when you die? What happens at death so that a person will go (eventually) to heaven?

Or, are you saying that there is no heaven and that at death the breath of life leaves us so that we are nothing more than a body with the life snuffed out? What point are you trying to make in asking me this question?

Right after we die Oz the breath of life is taken out of us, so how is it possible to exist without it? You believe we continue living in heaven after we die, but how is that possible since the breath of life gives life. This is not difficult to understand. You should be past this by now.

 

[OzSpen]

I do not believe in Hades as anything other than the grave, where, for lack of a better explanation, the dead sleep...



The Barrd,

We know that hades cannot mean the grave because in the Greek NT, the word, mneema, refers to the grave or tomb.

The arguments that affirm that the OT Sheol cannot mean the grave also apply to Hades since Hades in the Greek NT and LXX (Septuagint) is equivalent to the Hebrew, Sheol. The NT's dependence on the Septuagint when quoting the OT confirms this point.
The KJV in the OT, unfortunately, translates Sheol as 'hell' 31 times, 'grave' 31 times, and 'pit' 3 times. Because of this inconsistency of translation you and groups like the SDAs, Armstrongites, and JWs have taught that Sheol/Hades refers to the grave.

Brown, Driver & Briggs, A Hebrew and English Lexicon of the Old Testament, defines Sheol as 'the underworld ... whither man descends at death' (p. 982). Keil & Delitzsch, Hebrew exegetes, state that 'Sheol denotes the place where departed souls are gathered after death' (Commentaries on the Old Testament, vol 1, p. 338. Eerdmans).

Robert Morey in his section on 'Sheol and the Grave' gives 7 reasons 'why Sheol cannot mean the grave' (I recommend a read of this section).

For these same reasons, Hades cannot mean the grave because the Septuagint translates Sheol with Hades.

Are you open to accepting this explanation, based on the original languages?

Oz

 

[ewq1938]

And I'd also bet that, living in a time when Greek influence was everywhere, He would tell His parable in terms that the people would be familiar with.

He spoke to the Jews and they were familiar with the Jewish understanding of Hades. What Jesus describes is very different from Greek beliefs and that shouldn't be surprising.

 

[OzSpen]

Denominations are based on religion. God is not religion. God is love, and without God's breath of life in us we do not continue living. God will breathe the breath of life in us at the first resurrection.

James 1:26-27 (ESV) refutes this view: 'If anyone thinks he is religious and does not bridle his tongue but deceives his heart, this person's religion is worthless. 27 Religion that is pure and undefiled before God, the Father, is this: to visit orphans and widows in their affliction, and to keep oneself unstained from the world'.

 

[ewq1938]

I do not believe in Hades as anything other than the grave, where, for lack of a better explanation, the dead sleep...



The Barrd,

We know that hades cannot mean the grave because in the Greek NT, the word, mneema, refers to the grave or tomb.

The arguments that affirm that the OT Sheol cannot mean the grave also apply to Hades since Hades in the Greek NT and LXX (Septuagint) is equivalent to the Hebrew, Sheol. The NT's dependence on the Septuagint when quoting the OT confirms this point.
The KJV in the OT, unfortunately, translates Sheol as 'hell' 31 times, 'grave' 31 times, and 'pit' 3 times. Because of this inconsistency of translation you and groups like the SDAs, Armstrongites, and JWs have taught that Sheol/Hades refers to the grave.

Brown, Driver & Briggs, A Hebrew and English Lexicon of the Old Testament, defines Sheol as 'the underworld ... whither man descends at death' (p. 982). Keil & Delitzsch, Hebrew exegetes, state that 'Sheol denotes the place where departed souls are gathered after death' (Commentaries on the Old Testament, vol 1, p. 338. Eerdmans).

Robert Morey in his section on 'Sheol and the Grave' gives 7 reasons 'why Sheol cannot mean the grave' (I recommend a read of this section).

For these same reasons, Hades cannot mean the grave because the Septuagint translates Sheol with Hades.

Are you open to accepting this explanation, based on the original languages?

Oz

People don't understand there is a grave for the body and a "grave" for the soul and spirit, which is Hades. They aren't asleep.