How To Get To Heaven When You Die

[ATP]

People don't understand there is a grave for the body and a "grave" for the soul and spirit, which is Hades. They aren't asleep.

Where in scripture is there two graves??

 

[OzSpen]

I'm curious.
What is a "Christadelphian"?
That's one I don't think I've ever heard of before...

Here is a source for Christadelphian history and doctrine. Many of their doctrines are parallel with the JWs. There is quite a group of them in my suburb of Brisbane and they operate a retirement village not far from where I live.

 

[Barrd]

I do not believe in Hades as anything other than the grave, where, for lack of a better explanation, the dead sleep...



The Barrd,

We know that hades cannot mean the grave because in the Greek NT, the word, mneema, refers to the grave or tomb.

The arguments that affirm that the OT Sheol cannot mean the grave also apply to Hades since Hades in the Greek NT and LXX (Septuagint) is equivalent to the Hebrew, Sheol. The NT's dependence on the Septuagint when quoting the OT confirms this point.
The KJV in the OT, unfortunately, translates Sheol as 'hell' 31 times, 'grave' 31 times, and 'pit' 3 times. Because of this inconsistency of translation you and groups like the SDAs, Armstrongites, and JWs have taught that Sheol/Hades refers to the grave.

Brown, Driver & Briggs, A Hebrew and English Lexicon of the Old Testament, defines Sheol as 'the underworld ... whither man descends at death' (p. 982). Keil & Delitzsch, Hebrew exegetes, state that 'Sheol denotes the place where departed souls are gathered after death' (Commentaries on the Old Testament, vol 1, p. 338. Eerdmans).

Robert Morey in his section on 'Sheol and the Grave' gives 7 reasons 'why Sheol cannot mean the grave' (I recommend a read of this section).

For these same reasons, Hades cannot mean the grave because the Septuagint translates Sheol with Hades.

Are you open to accepting this explanation, based on the original languages?

Oz

I don't think I ever said that I think Hades means the grave. I'm pretty sure that this tale in Luke is a parable...a story told to make a point.
Do I believe Hades refers to hell?
I know this...at the end of time, hell...along with it's nasty friend, death...will both be cast into the Lake of Fire. Whatever it is or is not, it is not permanent.

Did you know that Tartarus, (or however you spell it) was where Zeus chained the Titans?
Did you know that he also condemned Prometheus for bringing fire from heaven to mortals?

Do remember that, at the time of Jesus, the entire known world had been influenced by Greek culture. Every educated Roman had been taught by a Greek slave. Even in Jerusalem, Alexander had left his mark.

In any case, my questions remain unanswered:

Why does Lazarus insist on coming to this person's gate to be fed? Hasn't he figured out that this guy isn't going to do anything for him? Surely there are other places he could go for help? Why doesn't he hang out with the other beggars around the Temple grounds?
What's with the sores? Has he got some sort of disease? Maybe that's why the rich man doesn't want him around...
Are the dogs in the story pets, or are they wild dogs? If they're wild, why don't they just tear Lazarus apart and eat him? And if they are pets, why isn't their owner keeping them under control? I know I would not let my little dog lick some strange beggar's sores.

Which brings me to the most important question of all...

Suppose....just suppose for a minute....that some diseased beggar, ragged and covered in sores, kept showing up at your door, begging to be fed with the crumbs from your table? What would you do?
Be honest now...
Some of us might give him some leftovers, if we have any...a few might even give him some money.
But if he kept coming back, I think most of us would probably call the police....

Perhaps, Oz Span, you can tell me...
If Lazarus were to choose your house to settle in to beg, what would you do?
He's there, every day.
In his rags. With dogs licking his sores.
Every.
Single.
Day.

Be honest.
What would you do?

Somehow, I don't think explaining to him that hades doesn't mean the grave isn't going to help much...

 

[OzSpen]

I don't think I ever said that I think Hades means the grave. I'm pretty sure that this tale in Luke is a parable...a story told to make a point.
Do I believe Hades refers to hell?
I know this...at the end of time, hell...along with it's nasty friend, death...will both be cast into the Lake of Fire. Whatever it is or is not, it is not permanent.

Did you know that Tartarus, (or however you spell it) was where Zeus chained the Titans?
Did you know that he also condemned Prometheus for bringing fire from heaven to mortals?

Do remember that, at the time of Jesus, the entire known world had been influenced by Greek culture. Every educated Roman had been taught by a Greek slave. Even in Jerusalem, Alexander had left his mark.

In any case, my questions remain unanswered:

Why does Lazarus insist on coming to this person's gate to be fed? Hasn't he figured out that this guy isn't going to do anything for him? Surely there are other places he could go for help? Why doesn't he hang out with the other beggars around the Temple grounds?
What's with the sores? Has he got some sort of disease? Maybe that's why the rich man doesn't want him around...
Are the dogs in the story pets, or are they wild dogs? If they're wild, why don't they just tear Lazarus apart and eat him? And if they are pets, why isn't their owner keeping them under control? I know I would not let my little dog lick some strange beggar's sores.

Which brings me to the most important question of all...

Suppose....just suppose for a minute....that some diseased beggar, ragged and covered in sores, kept showing up at your door, begging to be fed with the crumbs from your table? What would you do?
Be honest now...
Some of us might give him some leftovers, if we have any...a few might even give him some money.
But if he kept coming back, I think most of us would probably call the police....

Perhaps, Oz Span, you can tell me...
If Lazarus were to choose your house to settle in to beg, what would you do?
He's there, every day.
In his rags. With dogs licking his sores.
Every.
Single.
Day.

Be honest.
What would you do?

Somehow, I don't think explaining to him that hades doesn't mean the grave isn't going to help much...

This is a red herring of a reply. Not once in my post, to which you are referring, did I mention the story of the rich man and Lazarus. But you are off and running with where you want to go (and lots of speculation), so it's a red herring desired to divert attention from the evidence I gave that Hades is NOT the grave.

This is a false statement. You most certainly said that 'I do not believe in Hades as anything other than the grave, where, for lack of a better explanation, the dead sleep'. So, you are stating that Hades means the grave. Or are you changing your mind now?

As for the Greek tartarus, it always referred to a place of eternal, conscious punishment in Greek literature. It cannot mean grave or non-existence. The paragon of Greek lexicons, Arndt & Gingrich (p. 813) gave the meaning: 'Tartarus, thought of by the Greeks as a subterranean place lower than Hades where divine punishment was meted out, was so regarded in Jewish apocalyptic as well (En. 20:2; Phil, Exs. 152; Jos. C. Ap. 2:240; Sib. Or. 2, 302; 4, 186)'. Arndt & Gingrich interpret Tartarus in The Sibylline Oracles [supposed prophecies from Sibyl] to refer to the place of eternal, conscious torment.

As for your view that 'at the time of Jesus, the entire known world had been influenced by Greek culture. Every educated Roman had been taught by a Greek slave. Even in Jerusalem, Alexander had left his mark', I think you have overlooked the importance of the influence of Judaism in the life of Jesus, the disciples and the early church. In The Midrash, it is recorded that the wicked are to be 'punished for generations upon generations'. Where? In 'the ceaseless retribution of the wicked' (Gen. 908); they will 'never escape' this (Num. 726) and when they are in Gehenna, they are not annihilated (Exo. 908).

As for why Lazarus goes to the gate and doesn't hang out with the other beggars, we are not told. So, speculating is a fruitless exercise. The rest of your post is subjective speculation and I will not enter into it, especially when yours is a red herring fallacy of a response.

I'm not explaining to Lazarus that Hades is not the grave. I'm explaining to The Barrd and she doesn't seem interested in dealing with the actual content I wrote about Hades not meaning the grave.

Oz

 

[OzSpen]

Something being condemned by modern Christianity doesn't mean anything as modern Christianity teaches errors. Modern churches are full of false doctrines, so they are not a reliable source of what is Christian.

Butch,

I do wish you would not make generalisations like this. It takes us nowhere. If you have some errors that modern Christianity teaches, which don't you start a new thread and begin to deal with it. 'Modern churches are full of false doctrines' is hyperbole and is not true in the modern church I attend.

So are you always a reliable source of what is Christian? I suggest that your false generalisation, 'Modern churches are full of false doctrines', here demonstrates that you are not a reliable source.

Oz

 

[OzSpen]

You have to define what you mean by that term. It means different things depending on who you're speaking with.

Butch,

Seventh-Day Adventists state: 'Since death is a sleep, the dead will remain in a state of unconsciousness in the grave until the resurrection, when the grave (hades) gives up its dead (Rev. 20:13)' (Seventh-Day Adventists Believe - Death and Resurrection).

 

[OzSpen]

I believe when a person dies they are dead. I don't see how a dead person can sleep.

What did Jesus say to the thief, who died on a cross beside Jesus, would be at death? He didn't say that he is 'dead' (your language). Luke 23:43 (ESV) states, 'And he said to him, 'Truly I say to you, today you will be with me in Paradise'. So the thief went immediately to Paradise when he died. That's on the authority of Jesus.

In addition, we know that those who die in faith are not dead or experiencing soul sleep because of what happened at Jesus' Transfiguration when 'there appeared to them Moses and Elijah, talking with him' (Matt 17:3 ESV). Even though Moses and Elijah had been 'dead' for hundreds of years, they were alive and were able to talk with Jesus, Peter, James and John on the mountain.

Those who have died in faith are not 'dead', but are very much alive.

Oz

 

[OzSpen]

Actually, there is quite a bit in the Scriptures about this. I think it's pretty clear what they say. I think Idea that man lives on after death is an idea that comes from Greek philosophy and Gnosticism.

Butch,

In this thread, I presented plenty of biblical evidence of life after death. It is NOT a philosophy gained from the Greeks or Gnosticism. It can be found throughout the OT & NT.

See my articles,

• Life after Death: Current Controversies
• Those who live and believe in Jesus Christ shall never die
• The Intermediate State for believers and unbelievers: Where do they go at death?

 

[Bible_Gazer]

If the righteous are in heaven alive then they don't need a resurrection because they are not dead. praise the Lord

There is a place where the OT righteous saints went to after they died.

Malachi 3:16-17
16 Then they that feared the LORD spake often one to another: and the LORD hearkened, and heard it,
and a book of remembrance was written before him for them that feared the LORD, and that thought upon his name.
17 And they shall be mine, saith the LORD of hosts, in that day when I make up my jewels;
and I will spare them, as a man spareth his own son that serveth him.

this book of remembrance is just God's memories of those who died and in that day he will raise up his jewels.

Of course we know Hebrews 11 says the faithful in the OT all died short of the promise.
But they did look to be alive again knowing the promise would give them eternal life.

2 Timothy 1:1
1 Paul, an apostle of Jesus Christ by the will of God, according to the promise of life which is in Christ Jesus,

 

[Butch5]

Butch,

In this thread, I presented plenty of biblical evidence of life after death. It is NOT a philosophy gained from the Greeks or Gnosticism. It can be found throughout the OT & NT.

See my articles,

• Life after Death: Current Controversies
• Those who live and believe in Jesus Christ shall never die
• The Intermediate State for believers and unbelievers: Where do they go at death?

Oz,

I'll have to disagree with you and would be more than happy to address the subject. At the moment I don't have time to read the articles, maybe this afternoon I'll have time. However, I did open the first link and found the fallacy of " Poisoning the Well" in the first paragraph. Again, I haven't read the articles, but since you opened by calling the teaching errant, it's hard for me to assume that you've given the doctrine a fair shake. I could be wrong and will have to see when I look at the articles. I disagree that it is an errant teaching and will gladly show that it's not. And, I'll do it from Scripture using a logical and proper hermeneutic.

 

[Butch5]

What did Jesus say to the thief, who died on a cross beside Jesus, would be at death? He didn't say that he is 'dead' (your language). Luke 23:43 (ESV) states, 'And he said to him, 'Truly I say to you, today you will be with me in Paradise'. So the thief went immediately to Paradise when he died. That's on the authority of Jesus.

In addition, we know that those who die in faith are not dead or experiencing soul sleep because of what happened at Jesus' Transfiguration when 'there appeared to them Moses and Elijah, talking with him' (Matt 17:3 ESV). Even though Moses and Elijah had been 'dead' for hundreds of years, they were alive and were able to talk with Jesus, Peter, James and John on the mountain.

Those who have died in faith are not 'dead', but are very much alive.

Oz

Hi Oz,

No, they're dead. I can easily address and explain these passages. They don't teach that the dead are somehow alive. If we study the historical setting and background of the NT and the early church was can see where this idea came from. I don't have time at the moment to address this but hope to have time this afternoon.

 

[Butch5]

Butch,

Seventh-Day Adventists state: 'Since death is a sleep, the dead will remain in a state of unconsciousness in the grave until the resurrection, when the grave (hades) gives up its dead (Rev. 20:13)' (Seventh-Day Adventists Believe - Death and Resurrection).

Oz,

I asked so I would know the belief of the person that I am discussion it with. I have heard different definitions of this doctrine from different people. So, in order to avoid confusion or assumptions I ask each person to tell me how they understand the doctrine. I will take it from this that what you posted is your understanding of the doctrine.

 

[Butch5]

Butch,

I do wish you would not make generalisations like this. It takes us nowhere. If you have some errors that modern Christianity teaches, which don't you start a new thread and begin to deal with it. 'Modern churches are full of false doctrines' is hyperbole and is not true in the modern church I attend.

So are you always a reliable source of what is Christian? I suggest that your false generalisation, 'Modern churches are full of false doctrines', here demonstrates that you are not a reliable source.

Oz

Oz,

My comment was directed at a particular statement with a particular intent. I was not making a declarative statement to the general public. However, since you've brought it up I can gladly list doctrines that modern churches have wrong. Your church doesn't have any errors? I'd beg to differ. If you're representative of your church just look at the discussion we're having right now about the intermediate state. I believe and can show that man is not alive after death until the resurrection.

 

[Butch5]

Butch,

In this thread, I presented plenty of biblical evidence of life after death. It is NOT a philosophy gained from the Greeks or Gnosticism. It can be found throughout the OT & NT.

See my articles,

• Life after Death: Current Controversies
• Those who live and believe in Jesus Christ shall never die
• The Intermediate State for believers and unbelievers: Where do they go at death?

Hey, all the links are the same article

 

[ATP]

What did Jesus say to the thief, who died on a cross beside Jesus, would be at death? He didn't say that he is 'dead' (your language). Luke 23:43 (ESV) states, 'And he said to him, 'Truly I say to you, today you will be with me in Paradise'. So the thief went immediately to Paradise when he died. That's on the authority of Jesus.

In addition, we know that those who die in faith are not dead or experiencing soul sleep because of what happened at Jesus' Transfiguration when 'there appeared to them Moses and Elijah, talking with him' (Matt 17:3 ESV). Even though Moses and Elijah had been 'dead' for hundreds of years, they were alive and were able to talk with Jesus, Peter, James and John on the mountain.

Those who have died in faith are not 'dead', but are very much alive.

Oz

Luke 23:43 - If you research the original doctrines of the NT, you will see that there is no punctuation. I would submit that it is translator bias. When you remove the comma you can see that Jesus was simply comforting the thief on the cross. We see in verse 42 that the thief was only interested in coming into his kingdom. The thief was not concerned about when he would be there, rather just being there was what he wanted. The correct way to read verse 43 is without punctuation. And according to scriptural evidence, neither Jesus nor the thief went to paradise on the day they died because scripture states that Jesus ascended to the Father some 40 days later after His resurrection. Lastly, the terms "paradise" and "the tree of life" describes a place on the New Earth, Rev 2:7, Rev 22:2, Rev 22:14 and Rev 22:19.

The Transfiguration is a vision of the first resurrection, rapture and the feast of tabernacles Matt 17:4 NIV. Moses represents those who are dead in Christ. Elijah represents those who are alive at rapture, and Jesus represents himself in Matt 17:2 NIV. Let's take a look at the definition of transfigure to get a better idea...

verb (used with object), transfigured, transfiguring.
1. to change in outward form or appearance; transform.
2. to change so as to glorify or exalt.

Matt 16:28 NIV I tell you the truth, some who are standing here will not taste death before they see the Son of Man coming in his kingdom."

1 Cor 15:50-54 NIV I declare to you, brothers and sisters, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God, nor does the perishable inherit the imperishable. 51Listen, I tell you a mystery: We will not all sleep, but we will all be changed— 52in a flash, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, the dead will be raised imperishable, and we will be changed. 53For the perishable must clothe itself with the imperishable, and the mortal with immortality. 54When the perishable has been clothed with the imperishable, and the mortal with immortality, then the saying that is written will come true: “Death has been swallowed up in victory.”

Lev 23:33-34 NIV The LORD said to Moses, 34 "Say to the Israelites: 'On the fifteenth day of the seventh month the LORD's Feast of Tabernacles begins, and it lasts for seven days.

Matt 17:1-13 NIV After six days Jesus took with him Peter, James and John the brother of James, and led them up a high mountain by themselves. 2 There he was transfigured before them. His face shone like the sun, and his clothes became as white as the light. 3 Just then there appeared before them Moses and Elijah, talking with Jesus. 4 Peter said to Jesus, "Lord, it is good for us to be here. If you wish, I will put up three shelters--one for you, one for Moses and one for Elijah." 5 While he was still speaking, a bright cloud enveloped them, and a voice from the cloud said, "This is my Son, whom I love; with him I am well pleased. Listen to him!" 6 When the disciples heard this, they fell facedown to the ground, terrified. 7 But Jesus came and touched them. "Get up," he said. "Don't be afraid." 8 When they looked up, they saw no one except Jesus. 9 As they were coming down the mountain, Jesus instructed them, "Don't tell anyone what you have seen, until the Son of Man has been raised from the dead." 10 The disciples asked him, "Why then do the teachers of the law say that Elijah must come first?" 11 Jesus replied, "To be sure, Elijah comes and will restore all things. 12 But I tell you, Elijah has already come, and they did not recognize him, but have done to him everything they wished. In the same way the Son of Man is going to suffer at their hands." 13 Then the disciples understood that he was talking to them about John the Baptist.

Psalm 27:5 NIV For in the day of trouble he will keep me safe in his dwelling; he will hide me in the shelter of his sacred tent and set me high upon a rock.

Isa 26:20 NIV Go, my people, enter your rooms and shut the doors behind you; hide yourselves for a little while until his wrath has passed by.

Zeph 2:3 NIV Seek the LORD, all you humble of the land, you who do what he commands. Seek righteousness, seek humility; perhaps you will be sheltered on the day of the LORD's anger.

John 14:1-4 NIV "Do not let your hearts be troubled. Trust in God; trust also in me. 2 In my Father's house are many rooms; if it were not so, I would have told you. I am going there to prepare a place for you. 3 And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come back and take you to be with me that you also may be where I am. 4 You know the way to the place where I am going."

- ATP

 

[Barrd]

This is a red herring of a reply. Not once in my post, to which you are referring, did I mention the story of the rich man and Lazarus. But you are off and running with where you want to go (and lots of speculation), so it's a red herring desired to divert attention from the evidence I gave that Hades is NOT the grave.

This is a false statement. You most certainly said that 'I do not believe in Hades as anything other than the grave, where, for lack of a better explanation, the dead sleep'. So, you are stating that Hades means the grave. Or are you changing your mind now?

As for the Greek tartarus, it always referred to a place of eternal, conscious punishment in Greek literature. It cannot mean grave or non-existence. The paragon of Greek lexicons, Arndt & Gingrich (p. 813) gave the meaning: 'Tartarus, thought of by the Greeks as a subterranean place lower than Hades where divine punishment was meted out, was so regarded in Jewish apocalyptic as well (En. 20:2; Phil, Exs. 152; Jos. C. Ap. 2:240; Sib. Or. 2, 302; 4, 186)'. Arndt & Gingrich interpret Tartarus in The Sibylline Oracles [supposed prophecies from Sibyl] to refer to the place of eternal, conscious torment.

As for your view that 'at the time of Jesus, the entire known world had been influenced by Greek culture. Every educated Roman had been taught by a Greek slave. Even in Jerusalem, Alexander had left his mark', I think you have overlooked the importance of the influence of Judaism in the life of Jesus, the disciples and the early church. In The Midrash, it is recorded that the wicked are to be 'punished for generations upon generations'. Where? In 'the ceaseless retribution of the wicked' (Gen. 908); they will 'never escape' this (Num. 726) and when they are in Gehenna, they are not annihilated (Exo. 908).

As for why Lazarus goes to the gate and doesn't hang out with the other beggars, we are not told. So, speculating is a fruitless exercise. The rest of your post is subjective speculation and I will not enter into it, especially when yours is a red herring fallacy of a response.

I'm not explaining to Lazarus that Hades is not the grave. I'm explaining to The Barrd and she doesn't seem interested in dealing with the actual content I wrote about Hades not meaning the grave.

Oz

And I am explaining to Oz that, if the beggar were real, as you claim, then perhaps the rich man had good reason to turn him away.
I know that if such a character were to show up on a daily basis at my door, I might feed him once or twice...but after awhile, I'd call the police or the mental hospital or someone. I have kids here, and, blech...I don't want this guy and his disease...not to mention his cohort of dogs...contaminating their environment.

And if the truth were told, you'd probably react the same way. So I guess we'd both wind up on the wrong side of the Styx, with dry tongues...

 

[Barrd]

I'm not saying that Jesus was influenced by Greek culture, but that the people He was teaching were....that is why He used Greek mythology in His parable.
The story of the rich man and Lazarus can only be a parable, to think this is a true story is just ridiculous.
Does anyone really think that the doomed in hell may speak to the blessed in Heaven? I don't know about you, but it would spoil Heaven for me if I had to keep listening to the cries of the damned wishing for a drop of water to cool their tongues. It wouldn't be long before I'd be begging God to let me help them.

And that, you see, is the problem. If a sinner like me would find it impossible to ignore the suffering of the damned....surely God, Who is Love, would not be able to bear it?

I just don't think some folks have actually thought it through...

 

[ewq1938]

If the righteous are in heaven alive then they don't need a resurrection because they are not dead.

They don't have physical bodies. The resurrection gives them the new body.

 

[ewq1938]

I'm not saying that Jesus was influenced by Greek culture, but that the people He was teaching were....that is why He used Greek mythology in His parable.

Jesus didn't use Greek mythology in his teachings.

 

[ATP]

They don't have physical bodies. The resurrection gives them the new body.

You have yet to post scripture that speaks of spirit bodies in the third heaven. It's hollywood nonsense ewq.