How To Get To Heaven When You Die

[ewq1938]

You need to answer these questions in order to support your belief.......

1. Why does Jesus use Hades as hellfire in only this passage and the rest of the Bible uses Gehenna and the Lake of Fire as hellfire? Is it possible that He could be using Hades as figurative picture language here? (Luke 16:23 NIV In Hades, where he was in torment, he looked up and saw Abraham far away, with Lazarus by his side.)

Obviously there is tormenting fire in Hades. The lake of fire destroys both body and soul Mat_10:28 but Hades does not.

2. If the rich man died his spirit would have to be in hell.

He was in hell/hades.

3. We see here in Luke 16:24-31 NIV that the rich man is having a personal conversation in hell. Even though he died he is aware of things, but Eccl 9:5 and Eccl 9:10 specifically states that the dead know nothing and they can neither plan or have knowledge or wisdom.

Eccl 9:10 addresses the dead from human perspective, the dead body. The dead in the spiritual world are fully alive and awake. The first death is only death of the human body, not death of spirit or soul.

The point of the entire parable is at the end and deals with repentance and the resurrection of Christ...........

No, the end is not the "entire parable" nor is it directly about repentance and the resurrection of Christ. It is about what happens to people when they die. There are two places and the dead end up in one of those two.

Luke 16:19-31 NIV 29“ Abraham replied, ‘They have Moses and the Prophets (their writings); let them listen to them.’ 30“ ‘No, father Abraham,’ he said, ‘but if someone from the dead goes to them, they will repent.’ 31“He said to him, ‘If they do not listen to Moses and the Prophets, they will not be convinced even if someone (Jesus Christ) rises from the dead.’ ”

It isn't specifically talking about Christ especially since it says people won't believe but many did believe Christ rose from the dead. The context is strictly about the rich man and his family.

Luk 16:28 For I have five brethren; that he may testify unto them, lest they also come into this place of torment.
Luk 16:29 Abraham saith unto him, They have Moses and the prophets; let them hear them.
Luk 16:30 And he said, Nay, father Abraham: but if one went unto them from the dead, they will repent.
Luk 16:31 And he said unto him, If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though (you) rose from the dead.

 

[ewq1938]

Evidently, you did not read my post above. I'm fairly sure this story had to be a parable, for the reasons given in that post.
This has to be a parable, otherwise heaven is not going to be the blessed bliss we have been taught that it is. This version of paradise sounds pretty disappointing.

Heaven isn't the "paradise" we look forward to as far as the eternity. The New Earth will be where we live forever, not heaven. Rev 21-22

Did you know there will be a war in heaven? Of course heaven isn't meant to be a paradise. It's a temporary home for God, and angels and the saved dead.

 

[ATP]

Obviously there is tormenting fire in Hades. The lake of fire destroys both body and soul Mat_10:28 but Hades does not.



He was in hell/hades.


Eccl 9:10 addresses the dead from human perspective, the dead body. The dead in the spiritual world are fully alive and awake. The first death is only death of the human body, not death of spirit or soul.




No, the end is not the "entire parable" nor is it directly about repentance and the resurrection of Christ. It is about what happens to people when they die. There are two places and the dead end up in one of those two.




It isn't specifically talking about Christ especially since it says people won't believe but many did believe Christ rose from the dead. The context is strictly about the rich man and his family.

Luk 16:28 For I have five brethren; that he may testify unto them, lest they also come into this place of torment.
Luk 16:29 Abraham saith unto him, They have Moses and the prophets; let them hear them.
Luk 16:30 And he said, Nay, father Abraham: but if one went unto them from the dead, they will repent.
Luk 16:31 And he said unto him, If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though (you) rose from the dead.

1. Hades is translated "the grave". Do you like to study Hebrew and Greek?
2. But how does a spirit obtain a finger and a tongue?
3. Eccl 9:10 - But that's just your opinion
4. Yes there are two places we will go, the New Earth or the Lake of Fire. Hades is not the Lake of Fire. And it is about the resurrection. Re-read Luke 16:29-31 NIV.
5. Matt 22:14.

 

[ATP]

Heaven isn't the "paradise" we look forward to as far as the eternity. The New Earth will be where we live forever, not heaven. Rev 21-22

Did you know there will be a war in heaven? Of course heaven isn't meant to be a paradise. It's a temporary home for God, and angels and the saved dead.

Scripture does not teach of a temporary dwelling place after death.

 

[ewq1938]

1. Hades is translated "the grave".

I know. That's because that's where the dead go to wait for judgment day.

Do you like to study Hebrew and Greek?

Yes.

2. But how does a spirit obtain a finger and a tongue?

What does the rich man know? A spirit can have the appearance of a body without literally having a body as we see in Mat_3:16

4. Yes there are two places we will go, the New Earth or the Lake of Fire.

On judgment day. Before that people go to heaven or Hades.

Hades is not the Lake of Fire.

Who would think Hades is the lake of fire?

And it is about the resurrection. Re-read Luke 16:29-31 NIV.

It addresses only the resurrection of the rich man which was denied.

5. Matt 22:14.

?

 

[Barrd]

Heaven isn't the "paradise" we look forward to as far as the eternity. The New Earth will be where we live forever, not heaven. Rev 21-22

Did you know there will be a war in heaven? Of course heaven isn't meant to be a paradise. It's a temporary home for God, and angels and the saved dead.

So, you are a Jehovah's Witness?

 

[ewq1938]

Scripture does not teach of a temporary dwelling place after death.

Yes it does. Both heaven and Hades are temporary places for the dead to dwell. At the second coming Christ brings the dead saints in heaven with him to the earth and on judgement day the dead are brought out of Hades to be judged and are sent to the lake of fire. You should already know this. I don't understand how you couldn't unless you are new to the bible.

 

[Barrd]

Okay...
Just for my own curiosity, here...looking for a show of hands.
Who here believes that Jesus is, literally, God in the flesh? And who thinks He might be "a God"...but not literally God the Father.

I think it makes a HUGE difference as to what we believe about heaven and hell...

 

[ewq1938]

So, you are a Jehovah's Witness?

No, I'm a non-denominational Christian.

 

[ATP]

I know. That's because that's where the dead go to wait for judgment day.

Yes.


What does the rich man know? A spirit can have the appearance of a body without literally having a body as we see in Mat_3:16


Who would think Hades is the lake of fire?

1. Yes the grave is where the dead go, but they are not alive in the grave. That is silly. The dead are dead. So why did Jesus use Hades to describe a place where people burn?

2. Actually, God the Father does not obtain a body. God the Father is a spirit and only exists in the spirit realm. You're taking Matt 3:16 out of context. Nowhere in scripture does it speak of us having spirit bodies after death.

3. Who would think Hades is the lake of fire? You would because you believe Hades is a place where people burn. But in reality it is simply the grave where the dead sleep.

 

[Barrd]

No, I'm a non-denominational Christian.

I wondered. I was pretty sure JWs don't believe in hell at all.
But they are huge advocates of the idea that heaven will be here on earth.

Would you mind terribly if I ask you why you believe this?

 

[ewq1938]

Okay...
Just for my own curiosity, here...looking for a show of hands.
Who here believes that Jesus is, literally, God in the flesh? And who thinks He might be "a God"...but not literally God the Father.

I think it makes a HUGE difference as to what we believe about heaven and hell...

Jesus is literally God, so is the Father and the HS. One God made of three.

 

[Barrd]

Jesus is literally God, so is the Father and the HS. One God made of three.

I never could see the difference between "Oneness" and "Trinity".
Maybe I just don't understand the doctrines.
It seems fairly obvious to me that Jesus is God Incarnate. If there were any doubt at all...which I don't see how there could be...John certainly clarifies it for us:

Joh 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
Joh 1:2 The same was in the beginning with God.
Joh 1:3 All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.
Joh 1:4 In him was life; and the life was the light of men.
Joh 1:5 And the light shineth in darkness; and the darkness comprehended it not.

 

[ATP]

Yes it does. Both heaven and Hades are temporary places for the dead to dwell. At the second coming Christ brings the dead saints in heaven with him to the earth and on judgement day the dead are brought out of Hades to be judged and are sent to the lake of fire. You s

Nope. When we die all people, believers and nonbelievers go to Hades to sleep and await the first resurrection and the great white throne.

 

[Barrd]

Nope. When we die all people, believers and nonbelievers go to Hades to sleep and await the first resurrection and the great white throne.

This is what I believe, as well.

 

[ewq1938]

1. Yes the grave is where the dead go, but they are not alive in the grave. That is silly. The dead are dead.

No the dead are alive in another sense. Rev 6:9, And the fact Moses and Elijah appeared and spoke to Jesus though they were "dead".

So why did Jesus use Hades to describe a place where people burn?

Because it's true?

2. Actually, God the Father does not obtain a body.

Yes he does. Moses saw his hand blocking his face and he saw the back of his body as he walked away. That proves he has a face, head, legs, hands etc etc....one of many passages describing God the Father's body.

God the Father is a spirit and only exists in the spirit realm.

That's incorrect. Only the Holy Spirit is a bodiless spirit. Neither Father nor son are bodiless spirits.

You're taking Matt 3:16 out of context. Nowhere in scripture does it speak of us having spirit bodies after death.

It's not being taken out of context and I said "appearance of a body" not a literal body.

3. Who would think Hades is the lake of fire? You would because you believe Hades is a place where people burn.

Wrong yet again. Hades is a different place than the lake of fire. Both having fire doesn't make them the same place I already explained the differences and won't repeat that again. Scroll back.

But in reality it is simply the grave where the dead sleep.

That's a false doctrine called soul sleep which is not scriptural.

 

[ewq1938]

I wondered. I was pretty sure JWs don't believe in hell at all.
But they are huge advocates of the idea that heaven will be here on earth.

Would you mind terribly if I ask you why you believe this?

Heaven isn't on the Earth and never will be. It is always described as being above the Earth, also called the third heaven. The Earth is merely where eternity is spent according to Rev 21-22.

 

[ewq1938]

I never could see the difference between "Oneness" and "Trinity".
Maybe I just don't understand the doctrines.
It seems fairly obvious to me that Jesus is God Incarnate. If there were any doubt at all...which I don't see how there could be...John certainly clarifies it for us:

Joh 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
Joh 1:2 The same was in the beginning with God.
Joh 1:3 All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.
Joh 1:4 In him was life; and the life was the light of men.
Joh 1:5 And the light shineth in darkness; and the darkness comprehended it not.

Oneness denies the divinity of Jesus and the Holy Spirit believing God the Father is the only one who is God. It's a false doctrine.

 

[ewq1938]

Nope. When we die all people, believers and nonbelievers go to Hades to sleep and await the first resurrection and the great white throne.

That isn't scriptural. The 5th seal proves the saved dead are in heaven not Hades. Paul also speaks a couple times about wanting to be dead to be with Christ. Obviously he doesn't believe believers go to Hades.

 

[ATP]

No the dead are alive in another sense. Rev 6:9, And the fact Moses and Elijah appeared and spoke to Jesus though they were "dead".



Because it's true?



Yes he does. Moses saw his hand blocking his face and he saw the back of his body as he walked away. That proves he has a face, head, legs, hands etc etc....one of many passages describing God the Father's body.


That's incorrect. Only the Holy Spirit is a bodiless spirit. Neither Father nor son are bodiless spirits.




It's not being taken out of context and I said "appearance of a body" not a literal body.



Wrong yet again. Hades is a different place than the lake of fire. Both having fire doesn't make them the same place I already explained the differences and won't repeat that again. Scroll back.




That's a false doctrine called soul sleep which is not scriptural.

Nowhere in scripture does it speak of having a spirit body, and you have yet to show me scripture to prove this. Either the breath of life is in us or it's not. This is not rocket science.