How To Get To Heaven When You Die

[ewq1938]

Then why does the Hades in the parable look so much like the Greek version?

It doesn't.

 

[Barrd]

Hardened heart Butch. We are living in the generation of the most illiterate in regards to scripture.

ATP, I got my very first "big girl Bible" the year I turned 12. My Grandma gave it to me for Christmas that year.
By Easter, I had read it through.
Oh, I admit...I fudged a bit on Leviticus, Numbers, and Deuteronomy...they bored me, I'm afraid.
But I've read it through many, many, many times since then.
And Butch does seem to know his Bible as well.
The charge of illiteracy is noted and rejected.

 

[ewq1938]

Oh, now that is a very good point, Butch.
Thank you for sharing that.

It isn't correct. As you can see he spoke to both:

Luk 16:1 And he said also unto his disciples, There was a certain rich man, which had a steward; and the same was accused unto him that he had wasted his goods.
Luk 16:2 And he called him, and said unto him, How is it that I hear this of thee? give an account of thy stewardship; for thou mayest be no longer steward.
Luk 16:3 Then the steward said within himself, What shall I do? for my lord taketh away from me the stewardship: I cannot dig; to beg I am ashamed.
Luk 16:4 I am resolved what to do, that, when I am put out of the stewardship, they may receive me into their houses.
Luk 16:5 So he called every one of his lord's debtors unto him, and said unto the first, How much owest thou unto my lord?
Luk 16:6 And he said, An hundred measures of oil. And he said unto him, Take thy bill, and sit down quickly, and write fifty.
Luk 16:7 Then said he to another, And how much owest thou? And he said, An hundred measures of wheat. And he said unto him, Take thy bill, and write fourscore.
Luk 16:8 And the lord commended the unjust steward, because he had done wisely: for the children of this world are in their generation wiser than the children of light.
Luk 16:9 And I say unto you, Make to yourselves friends of the mammon of unrighteousness; that, when ye fail, they may receive you into everlasting habitations.
Luk 16:10 He that is faithful in that which is least is faithful also in much: and he that is unjust in the least is unjust also in much.
Luk 16:11 If therefore ye have not been faithful in the unrighteous mammon, who will commit to your trust the true riches?
Luk 16:12 And if ye have not been faithful in that which is another man's, who shall give you that which is your own?
Luk 16:13 No servant can serve two masters: for either he will hate the one, and love the other; or else he will hold to the one, and despise the other. Ye cannot serve God and mammon.
Luk 16:14 And the Pharisees also, who were covetous, heard all these things: and they derided him.
Luk 16:15 And he said unto them, Ye are they which justify yourselves before men; but God knoweth your hearts: for that which is highly esteemed among men is abomination in the sight of God.
Luk 16:16 The law and the prophets were until John: since that time the kingdom of God is preached, and every man presseth into it.
Luk 16:17 And it is easier for heaven and earth to pass, than one tittle of the law to fail.
Luk 16:18 Whosoever putteth away his wife, and marrieth another, committeth adultery: and whosoever marrieth her that is put away from her husband committeth adultery.


So his audience are the disciples and the Pharisees.


Luk 16:19 There was a certain rich man, which was clothed in purple and fine linen, and fared sumptuously every day:
Luk 16:20 And there was a certain beggar named Lazarus, which was laid at his gate, full of sores,
Luk 16:21 And desiring to be fed with the crumbs which fell from the rich man's table: moreover the dogs came and licked his sores.
Luk 16:22 And it came to pass, that the beggar died, and was carried by the angels into Abraham's bosom: the rich man also died, and was buried;
Luk 16:23 And in hell he lift up his eyes, being in torments, and seeth Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom.
Luk 16:24 And he cried and said, Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus, that he may dip the tip of his finger in water, and cool my tongue; for I am tormented in this flame.
Luk 16:25 But Abraham said, Son, remember that thou in thy lifetime receivedst thy good things, and likewise Lazarus evil things: but now he is comforted, and thou art tormented.
Luk 16:26 And beside all this, between us and you there is a great gulf fixed: so that they which would pass from hence to you cannot; neither can they pass to us, that would come from thence.
Luk 16:27 Then he said, I pray thee therefore, father, that thou wouldest send him to my father's house:
Luk 16:28 For I have five brethren; that he may testify unto them, lest they also come into this place of torment.
Luk 16:29 Abraham saith unto him, They have Moses and the prophets; let them hear them.
Luk 16:30 And he said, Nay, father Abraham: but if one went unto them from the dead, they will repent.
Luk 16:31 And he said unto him, If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead.

A parable is a non-historic story which teaches something which is true. Even if this were a parable, what is taught in it would still be true. Parables don't tell lies. But nothing in this story matches what we have in real parables. Was the story about Noah and an ark a parable or a real event? Why think a story about Lazarus and a rich man isn't? The reason is because people have already decided opinions on what Hades is and isn't so they must take a literal story and make it into a parable yet they fail to understand a parable still delivers truthful information normally using metaphors that must be explained.

 

[ATP]

ATP, I got my very first "big girl Bible" the year I turned 12. My Grandma gave it to me for Christmas that year.
By Easter, I had read it through.
Oh, I admit...I fudged a bit on Leviticus, Numbers, and Deuteronomy...they bored me, I'm afraid.
But I've read it through many, many, many times since then.
And Butch does seem to know his Bible as well.
The charge of illiteracy is noted and rejected.

That is awesome. I love my old rusty NIV version, haha.

Whatever you do, just be sure the Holy Spirit guides you. :)

 

[Barrd]

It doesn't.

You probably haven't read much mythology. I have. It was fascinating.

 

[Barrd]

That is awesome. I love my old rusty NIV version, haha.

Whatever you do, just be sure the Holy Spirit guides you. :)

Yes....
I was a voracious reader as a kid. I had to take care of my baby brother from age seven...something had gone wrong with my Mom and she was unable to do much of anything for some time. So I was "it".
Fortunately, we lived near a HUGE public library...
I was into Shakespeare at no more than eight years old. I saw the little fairies on the cover of "Midsummer Night's Dream", and took it home. It took me a bit, but I read it...and I loved it. From there I went to "Merchant of Venice"...Shylock's vicious intentions against his rival Antonio are neatly foiled by the clever Portia...the Libra in me (born in October 14), smiled at the justice of it.

Anyway, by twelve, I was ready for the King James version. I was able to read and understand it, and enjoy it as well.

 

[ewq1938]

You probably haven't read much mythology. I have. It was fascinating.

I have. That's why I know the two are vastly different even you listed some of the major differences.

 

[Barrd]

It doesn't.

Actually, it does. One compartment for the blessed, one for the damned, separated by a "great gulf"...all that's missing is Cerberus and Hades himself....I'm sure they are lurking about somewhere. Cerberus would be at the head of the "great gulf", and Hades...well, perhaps he's throwing more fuel on the fire.
What gets me is "Abraham's Bosom"...Do you really think Abraham is cradling Lazarus in his arms like a mother would cuddle her baby? Many, many, many, many good people have died since Jesus told this story. Is Abraham holding them all in his bosom? Heavy.

And evidently, the blessed and the damned can see one another and talk to one another across this chasm. The rich man wants Lazarus to do something for him, but he doesn't ask Lazarus--it is Abraham that the rich man addresses...not Lazarus. And Abraham answers him. Does Abraham speak for all of the "good dead"?
The truth is that Abraham, while he was a very important figure in Israel's history, was just a man. Whatever happens after death, it happened to Abraham just as it happens to everyone. Whether it is "soul sleep" or wandering around some gloomy Hadean underworld, or whatever, Abraham experienced it...or is experiencing it, as the case may be.
This is what makes it so painfully obvious that this has to be a parable.
Do you honestly think that the blessed are being held in Abraham's bosom? Because that would be rather ridiculous. Or that Abraham speaks for them to the damned on the other side of the "great gulf"? Because that would be even more ridiculous.
And have you even thought about the amazing arrogance of the rich man? In hades for the way he treated Lazarus, he now wants Lazarus...it must be Lazarus, mind you, no other will do...to bring him comfort.

 

[ewq1938]

Actually, it does. One compartment for the blessed, one for the damned, separated by a "great gulf"...

Hades has two compartments but the blessed aren't in either. The blessed are in heaven, a completely different place far away. It is tartaroo which is a compartment of Hades and it's for the fallen angels.

all that's missing is Cerberus and Hades himself....

Don't forget no river either. Also don't forget Hades was a god that protected the dead. There is no such god in the biblical hades. So looking at the details the two places are different and don't even share the same name. Biblical Hades is a place, in mythology it is a name of a god.

What gets me is "Abraham's Bosom"...Do you really think Abraham is cradling Lazarus in his arms like a mother would cuddle her baby?

lol...I didn't create the name. Just google it and you see what it meant to the Jews.

And evidently, the blessed and the damned can see one another and talk to one another across this chasm.

Only Abraham spoke to the rich man but yes you can see heaven from Hades.

The rich man wants Lazarus to do something for him, but he doesn't ask Lazarus--it is Abraham that the rich man addresses...not Lazarus. And Abraham answers him. Does Abraham speak for all of the "good dead"?

Luk 16:24 And he cried and said, Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus, that he may dip the tip of his finger in water, and cool my tongue; for I am tormented in this flame.

The rich man called to him and for whatever reason Abraham spoke back.

The truth is that Abraham, while he was a very important figure in Israel's history, was just a man. Whatever happens after death, it happened to Abraham just as it happens to everyone.

That doesn't mean he isn't allowed to speak to those in hades. He is addressed as "father" so he is more important than most.

Whether it is "soul sleep" or wandering around some gloomy Hadean underworld, or whatever, Abraham experienced it...or is experiencing it, as the case may be.

Nope. He was in heaven not hades.

This is what makes it so painfully obvious that this has to be a parable.
Do you honestly think that the blessed are being held in Abraham's bosom?

Yes.

Or that Abraham speaks for them to the damned on the other side of the "great gulf"?

It doesn't say he spoke for anyone else. He was called upon and spoke himself to the rich man.

Because that would be even more ridiculous.
And have you even thought about the amazing arrogance of the rich man? In hades for the way he treated Lazarus, he now wants Lazarus...it must be Lazarus, mind you, no other will do...to bring him comfort.

The rich man deserved his fate, that's what it proves.

 

[Butch5]

Like those noble Bereans.
I am impressed.

Thanks!

 

[Butch5]

It isn't correct. As you can see he spoke to both:

Luk 16:1 And he said also unto his disciples, There was a certain rich man, which had a steward; and the same was accused unto him that he had wasted his goods.
Luk 16:2 And he called him, and said unto him, How is it that I hear this of thee? give an account of thy stewardship; for thou mayest be no longer steward.
Luk 16:3 Then the steward said within himself, What shall I do? for my lord taketh away from me the stewardship: I cannot dig; to beg I am ashamed.
Luk 16:4 I am resolved what to do, that, when I am put out of the stewardship, they may receive me into their houses.
Luk 16:5 So he called every one of his lord's debtors unto him, and said unto the first, How much owest thou unto my lord?
Luk 16:6 And he said, An hundred measures of oil. And he said unto him, Take thy bill, and sit down quickly, and write fifty.
Luk 16:7 Then said he to another, And how much owest thou? And he said, An hundred measures of wheat. And he said unto him, Take thy bill, and write fourscore.
Luk 16:8 And the lord commended the unjust steward, because he had done wisely: for the children of this world are in their generation wiser than the children of light.
Luk 16:9 And I say unto you, Make to yourselves friends of the mammon of unrighteousness; that, when ye fail, they may receive you into everlasting habitations.
Luk 16:10 He that is faithful in that which is least is faithful also in much: and he that is unjust in the least is unjust also in much.
Luk 16:11 If therefore ye have not been faithful in the unrighteous mammon, who will commit to your trust the true riches?
Luk 16:12 And if ye have not been faithful in that which is another man's, who shall give you that which is your own?
Luk 16:13 No servant can serve two masters: for either he will hate the one, and love the other; or else he will hold to the one, and despise the other. Ye cannot serve God and mammon.
Luk 16:14 And the Pharisees also, who were covetous, heard all these things: and they derided him.
Luk 16:15 And he said unto them, Ye are they which justify yourselves before men; but God knoweth your hearts: for that which is highly esteemed among men is abomination in the sight of God.
Luk 16:16 The law and the prophets were until John: since that time the kingdom of God is preached, and every man presseth into it.
Luk 16:17 And it is easier for heaven and earth to pass, than one tittle of the law to fail.
Luk 16:18 Whosoever putteth away his wife, and marrieth another, committeth adultery: and whosoever marrieth her that is put away from her husband committeth adultery.


So his audience are the disciples and the Pharisees.

Luk 16:19 There was a certain rich man, which was clothed in purple and fine linen, and fared sumptuously every day:
Luk 16:20 And there was a certain beggar named Lazarus, which was laid at his gate, full of sores,
Luk 16:21 And desiring to be fed with the crumbs which fell from the rich man's table: moreover the dogs came and licked his sores.
Luk 16:22 And it came to pass, that the beggar died, and was carried by the angels into Abraham's bosom: the rich man also died, and was buried;
Luk 16:23 And in hell he lift up his eyes, being in torments, and seeth Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom.
Luk 16:24 And he cried and said, Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus, that he may dip the tip of his finger in water, and cool my tongue; for I am tormented in this flame.
Luk 16:25 But Abraham said, Son, remember that thou in thy lifetime receivedst thy good things, and likewise Lazarus evil things: but now he is comforted, and thou art tormented.
Luk 16:26 And beside all this, between us and you there is a great gulf fixed: so that they which would pass from hence to you cannot; neither can they pass to us, that would come from thence.
Luk 16:27 Then he said, I pray thee therefore, father, that thou wouldest send him to my father's house:
Luk 16:28 For I have five brethren; that he may testify unto them, lest they also come into this place of torment.
Luk 16:29 Abraham saith unto him, They have Moses and the prophets; let them hear them.
Luk 16:30 And he said, Nay, father Abraham: but if one went unto them from the dead, they will repent.
Luk 16:31 And he said unto him, If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead.

A parable is a non-historic story which teaches something which is true. Even if this were a parable, what is taught in it would still be true. Parables don't tell lies. But nothing in this story matches what we have in real parables. Was the story about Noah and an ark a parable or a real event? Why think a story about Lazarus and a rich man isn't? The reason is because people have already decided opinions on what Hades is and isn't so they must take a literal story and make it into a parable yet they fail to understand a parable still delivers truthful information normally using metaphors that must be explained.

Hi ewq1938,

It's not because I've decided something and have to fit in. It's because I've studied this subject deeply. Lets start at the very beginning. To say that the rich man and Lazarus is a true story presupposes that it is possible for the dead to be alive and conscious. However, that idea was foreign to Jewish thinking. We are told in Scripture that the Saducees rejected any afterlife. We are also told that the Pharisees believed in spirits and the resurrection. This is the foundation that Jesus is working with. The ones who believed that man was a spirit and ascended into the heavens were the Greeks. If we go back to the beginning and look at what a man is, what he consists of and how he continues to live we find that it is God who is continually giving man life. if God stops giving life all flesh will die.

In order for the story to be an actual event you'd need to show from Scripture some teaching that explains how man can live on after death. Gen 2 tells us that God created man from the dust. So, whatever man is he consists of the elements of the earth. Were then told that God breath His breath/spirit of life into the man and the man became something, he became a living soul. Thus a soul consists of a physical man (body) and the breath/spirit of God. If you take either component away you no longer have a soul. So, from this we can conclude that a soul cannot exist without a body. So unless man is a spirit, which he is not, then there is no way for him to continue to exist after death. There is plenty of evidence for this in Scripture.

7 And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul. (Gen. 2:7 KJV)

That man doesn't exist in some state after death is shown here.

18 For the grave cannot praise thee, death can not celebrate thee: they that go down into the pit cannot hope for thy truth. (Isa. 38:18 KJV)

4 Return, O LORD, deliver my soul: oh save me for thy mercies' sake.
5 For in death there is no remembrance of thee: in the grave who shall give thee thanks? (Ps. 6:4-5 KJV)

How can David say there is no remembrance of God if people go to be with Him at death?


NKJ Psalm 146:4 His spirit departs, he returns to his earth; In that very day his plans perish. (Ps. 146:4 NKJ)


His spirit departs, the breath/spirit of life that was put into him, he returns to the dust, just as God said, and his plans perish. The word translated "plans" actually means thoughts. So when the man dies his thoughts perish. He doesn't go somewhere, he's doesn't exist anymore.

There are plenty of passages that could be addressed but they'd all lead to this same place. There simply isn't anything left to live on. The idea that man lives on after death is derived from a misunderstanding of certain passages. In some cases it's a lack of context, in some it's poor translation or translator bias. But, all of the passages that are used to support the idea that man lives on after death can be explained logically and in a way that is cohesive with Scripture and that doesn't support that idea. If you're interested I'd be more than happy to go through it with you.

 

[OzSpen]

Abraham's bosom is a fictional place. If Luke 16:19-31 wanted to clarify the third heaven they would of used the word ouranos.

N T exegete, R C H Lenski, in his commentary on Luke 16:22 (ESV), disagrees with you:

'[SIZE=12pt]“Abraham’s bosom” is a Jewish designation for heaven. Abraham is the father of believers who stood at the head of the old covenant. When the soul goes where he is, that means entrance into heaven. “Bosom” does not refer to a feast at which the guests recline on the left elbow on broad couches so that the person next to Abraham, on turning back, would let his head rest against Abraham’s bosom. “Borne into Abraham’s bosom” conveys the idea of a child being laid on Abraham’s bosom and being embraced by him. The expression is figurative, not only for being in heaven where Abraham is, but as being in the most intimate association with the father of believers, accepted and acknowledged as a son of Abraham (19:9). So all true believers are borne into Abraham’s bosom' (Lenski 1946:849).[/SIZE]

[SIZE=12pt]Oz[/SIZE]

[SIZE=12pt]Works consulted[/SIZE]
[SIZE=12pt]Lenski, R C H 1946. Commentary on the New Testament: The Interpretation of Luke's Gospel. Peabody, Massachusetts: Hendrickson Publishers.[/SIZE]

 

[OzSpen]

What are your thoughts on...

Job 34:14-15 NIV If it were his intention and he withdrew his spirit and breath, 15all humanity would perish together and mankind would return to the dust.

Psalm 146:4 NIV When their spirit departs, they return to the ground; on that very day their plans come to nothing.

Eccl 3:19-20 NIV Surely the fate of human beings is like that of the animals; the same fate awaits them both: As one dies, so dies the other. All have the same breath ; humans have no advantage over animals. Everything is meaningless. 20All go to the same place; all come from dust, and to dust all return.

Acts 17:25 NIV And he is not served by human hands, as if he needed anything, because he himself gives all men life and breath and everything else.

James 2:26 NIV As the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without deeds is dead.

Rev 11:11 NIV But after the three and a half days the breath of life from God entered them, and they stood on their feet, and terror struck those who saw them.

ATP,

You have asked this type of question throughout this thread. Your response to me here is a red herring fallacy.

This was your response to my post: 'Here I demonstrate from Scripture that soul sleep is not a biblical teaching: 'Soul sleep: A refutation'.

Your response does not address the content of my article that refutes soul sleep. Instead, you are off and running with your own agenda. Please, please, be fair to us in this thread when we present material to challenge your position. You don't deal with it, so your response to me is a red herring.

I will not reply to you further if you don't address what I post. When you reply with a logical fallacy, we cannot have a logical discussion.

Oz

 

[OzSpen]

Sure. These verses confirm that without the breath of life in us there is no life. We die and then we come alive again at the first resurrection. God breathes the breath of life into us again at the first resurrection.

That is your conclusion but you have provided no exegesis or exposition to demonstrate that point. Are you a JW, Christadelphian or some other religion who does not believe in the existence of the soul/spirit who departs the human being at death to go to life beyond the grave? Do soul/spirit not exist for you?

 

[OzSpen]

What I'm saying is that the body, soul and spirit cannot exist without each other. God created man FIRST, THEN He GAVE us a spirit by breathing into us. God didn't create our spirit first and breathed flesh into our spirits NO! God created MAN first Gen 2:7 NIV. God gave us a temple for our spirits to dwell in, which is our flesh. One cannot exist without the other.

What departs from the body at death?

 

[ATP]

That is your conclusion but you have provided no exegesis or exposition to demonstrate that point. Are you a JW, Christadelphian or some other religion who does not believe in the existence of the soul/spirit who departs the human being at death to go to life beyond the grave? Do soul/spirit not exist for you?

And you have no argument and no scriptures to back up your silly beliefs. Read post 211 and learn something.

 

[OzSpen]

How would you exist without the breath of life in you though.

I wouldn't. However, I would not exist without the soul in me. 'And what do you benefit if you gain the whole world but lose your own soul?' (Mark 8:36 NLT).

 

[OzSpen]

Right after we die Oz the breath of life is taken out of us, so how is it possible to exist without it? You believe we continue living in heaven after we die, but how is that possible since the breath of life gives life. This is not difficult to understand. You should be past this by now.

That's because you are missing an important part of the equation of what makes a holistic person. It is not the body that needs breath that goes to heaven at death. It is the soul, as Mark 8:36 (ESV) makes abundantly clear. You seem to be finding it awfully difficult to understand that the body at death needs the 'breath of life' to exist. It doesn't.

 

[ATP]

That's because you are missing an important part of the equation of what makes a holistic person. It is not the body that needs breath that goes to heaven at death. It is the soul, as Mark 8:36 (ESV) makes abundantly clear. You seem to be finding it awfully difficult to understand that the body at death needs the 'breath of life' to exist. It doesn't.

Well, one day you'll wake up and it will click for you. It'll make sense. You'll get there.

 

[ewq1938]

Hi ewq1938,

It's not because I've decided something and have to fit in. It's because I've studied this subject deeply. Lets start at the very beginning. To say that the rich man and Lazarus is a true story presupposes that it is possible for the dead to be alive and conscious. However, that idea was foreign to Jewish thinking.

I'm not sure that's what the Pharisees believed but it doesn't matter what they believed. Christ was telling a story that provided true things, parable or historical story.

In order for the story to be an actual event you'd need to show from Scripture some teaching that explains how man can live on after death.

The saved dead are shown as being alive and awake in heaven:

Rev 6:9 And when he had opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of them that were slain for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held:
Rev 6:10 And they cried with a loud voice, saying, How long, O Lord, holy and true, dost thou not judge and avenge our blood on them that dwell on the earth?
Rev 6:11 And white robes were given unto every one of them; and it was said unto them, that they should rest yet for a little season, until their fellowservants also and their brethren, that should be killed as they were, should be fulfilled.

Moses and Elijah appeared to Christ and they were alive and awake.

It matches the story Christ told about the rich man.

So unless man is a spirit, which he is not, then there is no way for him to continue to exist after death. There is plenty of evidence for this in Scripture.

Man is spirit, soul and body. When a man dies, only his body is dead...soul and spirit remain alive.

4 Return, O LORD, deliver my soul: oh save me for thy mercies' sake.
5 For in death there is no remembrance of thee: in the grave who shall give thee thanks? (Ps. 6:4-5 KJV)

How can David say there is no remembrance of God if people go to be with Him at death?

He is talking about dead bodies not the soul and spirit.