Well there's a loaded question. It's how.
You tell people that some are "saved" and then "not saved". A "salvation" that doesn't save to the uttermost.
I don't.
Much love!
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You tell people that some are "saved" and then "not saved". A "salvation" that doesn't save to the uttermost.
I don't.
Much love!
It would seem that the Bible teaches such a thing.
Consider.
First, the context:
Luk 8:12, Those by the way side are they that hear; then cometh the devil, and taketh away the word out of their hearts, lest they should believe and be saved.
Here it seems to be saying that if you believe, you will be saved. This is important.
Luk 8:13, They on the rock are they, which, when they hear, receive the word with joy; and these have no root, which for a while believe, and in time of temptation fall away.
Here, there is a group of people who believe for a while, and then fall away in a time of temptation. If you look at what we just learned from the context, they were saved....because they believed.
However, for them to continue to have salvation, you have to teach the heresy that it doesn't matter if a man falls away from the faith...that he will continue to have salvation even if he falls away.
It is simply untrue.
For we are saved by grace through faith (Ephesians 2:8-9); and we have access by faith into this grace wherein we stand (Romans 5:1-2).
Therefore, faith is the conduit through which we have access to grace.
No faith, no grace. No grace, no salvation.
No faith, no salvation.
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Those who are saved in Luke 8:13 are not saved from an eternal hell from eternity's perspective...
However they are saved from sin from the perspective of time (Matthew 1:21, Titus 2:14); if only for a season.
However they are saved from sin from the perspective of time (Matthew 1:21, Titus 2:14); if only for a season.
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It seems that I have to say this over and over these days, Don't put words in my mouth. I really don't think you actually understand what I teach about this, and your words Do Not represent me.
Please stop!
Now . . .
Either rebirth is forever or it's not.
It's a simple thing to me.
Your hypothetical "man who is born again who 'falls from the faith' and becomes unborn again" just doesn't appear in my Bible.
The parable you quote . . . you know there are different kinds of belief. The devils believe, and shudder in fear. The seed that fell in the thorns produced no fruit. You claim this person is born again, but the Bible doesn't say that. You claim this is a person who is eternally saved but somehow lost!
The fourth seed was the one that bore fruit. None of the others.
Rightly divide.
Seriously, you are equating that the "believed for a time" with being reborn in the new covenant? I want to stress how short this falls, again, the devils believe. So to believe that it's true about Jesus, even if this makes you happy . . . hardly grounds to claim that eternal life is NOT what God says, eternal, and that His gift of "eternal life" might end, if you blow it.
Sin is from the flesh, the new man is righteous, and like clockwork, time for you to call me Gnostic.
Much love!
What does that mean???
Saved from sin for a time, but not saved from hell?
I'm wondering at this point . . . when you say "salvation" and "saved", what do these words mean to you?
For me, when I say, salvation, I mean, a rescue from sin and death to live eternally with God in righteousness.
What do you mean?
And how do these verses support your claim? I don't see that. You give references but don't quote the verses, and when I look up the verses, they say nothing about a temporary eternal life, or forgiveness given then rescinded, nothing like that. Why?
Much love!
You are certainly free to clarify your teaching in light of what I say that you have said if I have misrepresented you.
Luke 8:13 isn't in your Bible? Did you cut it out of your Bible with scissors?
I would warn you that if you did that, Revelation 22:18-19 tells you that your name has also been removed from the Book of Life.
They are in fact a living plant according to the parable.
I claim that they were saved from sin for a season but not saved from an eternal hell from eternity's perspective.
I have said over and over again that there are two kinds of faith...
1) A heart faith that is unto righteousness (Romans 10:10) and enduring to the end (Matthew 10:22, Habrews 3:6, Hebrews 3:14). Such a faith brings everlasting life (John 6:47)...life that can never come to an end...otherwise it would have been defined as temporal. Such a faith apprehends the believer being sealed by the Holy Spirit (Ephesians 1:13-14, Ephesians 4:30, 2 Corinthians 1:22, 2 Corinthians 5:5) so that he cannot fall away.
2) A nominal, shallow, or lukewarm faith; which can result in falling away in time of temptation (Luke 8:13). Such a faith has no surrender to the Lordship of Jesus Christ within it and therefore it does not obtain the sealing of the Holy Spirit.
No, I am not going to call you gnostic at this juncture. Gnostics teach that it doesn't matter what you do in the flesh because when you commit fleshly sins the new man is not involved in the committing of that sin. And you have not gone so far as to say that, this time.
Saved has to do with Matthew 1:21 and Titus 2:14. Its primary meaning is salvation from sin.
Salvation can also mean salvation from an eternal hell. But salvation from sin does not necessarily translate into salvation from an eternal hell. Because if someone is saved from sin, but only for a season...if they end up falling away from faith itself (because of the principle that we find in Hebrews 3:12-13) in a time of temptation...then they were saved by grace through faith while they had faith. But they lost their salvation when they lost faith because their faith was merely lukewarm, shallow, nominal; and did not have within it the strength to carry out to completion.
I believe that these two things are separate in the plan of the Lord. See above.
Because you are not understanding the verses.
Luke 8:13 does in fact speak of a person who is saved by grace through faith (from sin) and yet falls away in a time of temptation; so they are not saved from hell in the eternal sense but are only saved from sin in the temporal sense: that is, only for a season.
For in Luke 8:12 (the context) it should be clear to you that if a person believes, they are saved. And it should also be clear that in Luke 8:13 the person believes for a little while and then falls away because of temptation.
No wonder then!
We have complete different definitions of what salvation is. So, I'm talking only about rebirth into eternal life, unending.
Much love!
So, to you salvation is not salvation from sin?
Mat 1:21, And she shall bring forth a son, and thou shalt call his name JESUS: for he shall save his people from their sins.
Tit 2:14, Who gave himself for us, that he might redeem us from all iniquity, and purify unto himself a peculiar people, zealous of good works.
You should be aware of the biblical teaching...that a person can be saved from sin for a season and yet not be saved from an eternal hell (Luke 8:12-13).
I would say that the person with a nominal, lukewarm, or shallow faith does not have eternal life, unending, according to your definition is not saved.
While according to my definition faith definitely saves a person (if only from sin for a season).
It takes a heart faith that is unto righteousness (Romans 10:10) and enduring to the end (Matthew 10:22, Hebrews 3:6, Hebrews 3:14) to produce everlasting life (John 6:47)...life that can never come to an end...otherwise it would have been defined as temporal.
While according to my definition faith definitely saves a person (if only from sin for a season).
It takes a heart faith that is unto righteousness (Romans 10:10) and enduring to the end (Matthew 10:22, Hebrews 3:6, Hebrews 3:14) to produce everlasting life (John 6:47)...life that can never come to an end...otherwise it would have been defined as temporal.
Give me a break!
Why do you keep trying to make me sound like something I'm not???????
Enough already!
So, to you salvation is salvation from sin.
Do you agree with the biblical teaching (Luke 8:12-13) that a person can be saved from sin for a season and yet not be saved eternally from hell?
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Eternal life is eternal life. What are we talking about here? Someone who has been born again? Or not?
Once Again . . . stop putting words in my mouth.
OK, nevermind. As many times as I've asked you, you don't seem to care, and will write whatever you like to make me look bad. Whatever. The world is filled with people to do that!
I am merely attempting to clarify what you believe.
But apparently, you want to keep what you really believe hidden from us.
Otherwise, you would simply affirm or deny my estimation of what you are saying you believe.
I am not attempting to misrepresent you here; I am only attempting to understand your point of view.
According to your definitions, I am saying that those who have a nominal, lukewarm, or shallow faith do not have everlasting life (are not saved).
However, this does present a problem with the rest of scripture.
For, in Ephesians 2:8-9, it should be clear, as well as in Luke 8:12, that those who believe (have faith) are saved.
(and the people in Luke 8:13 do have faith)
The question is, saved from what?
For it is clear, in Luke 8:13, that a person can believe for a while and then fall away from faith.
They do not continue to have salvation, if you believe Ephesians 2:8-9 and Romans 5:1-2, is what I am saying.
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Believe it or not there are days when I champion the doctrine of eternal security.
But I will qualify my statements by teaching that eternal security only applies to those who have a heart faith that is unto righteousness (Romans 10:10) and enduring to the end (Matthew 10:22, Hebrews 3:6, Hebrews 3:14).
But I will qualify my statements by teaching that eternal security only applies to those who have a heart faith that is unto righteousness (Romans 10:10) and enduring to the end (Matthew 10:22, Hebrews 3:6, Hebrews 3:14).
You're wrong. One can fall away and be "unborn" as you described it. The seed that fell among stony places are born again believers, but fall away when things get tough.
Jesus speaking:
Matthew 13
[5] Some [seed] fell upon stony places, where they had not much earth: and forthwith they sprung up, because they had no deepness of earth:
[6] And when the sun was up, they were scorched; and because they had no root, they withered away.
Interpretation:
[20] But he that received the seed into stony places, the same is he that heareth the word, and anon with joy receiveth it;
[21] Yet hath he not root in himself, but dureth for a while: for when tribulation or persecution ariseth because of the word, by and by he is offended.
amigo de christo
Well-Known Member
Good examples can also be found in all the messages to the seven churches .
As well as what james said . Confess ye your faults one to another and PRAY that YE may BE HEALED .
But notice something in the messages to the seven churches .
God first always mentions the good they are doing . Then in all but two churches God mentions the evil that is being allowed or done .
AND says repent or else .
And then in the two churches who are doing good , HE says TO CONTINUE TO DO GOOD HOLD that fast to the END .
Which of course is what JESUS said while on earth . He who continues not in me will be cast out .
Its real simple if we simply learn the scriptures . God will make clear what many men have made cloudy and difficult .
This passage does not teach that.
"He had no root in himself", this is born again? No root, so they just wither away.
In contrast, Peter describes the one who when they are tested, they are proven, because they are true.
This is someone "receives the word immediately with joy", but has no root. They have an emotional experience, but the Word does not penetrate to their heart.
In contrast to the first three grounds, the fourth alone is fruitful.
At least that's how I see this one.
Much love!
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