How Well Do You Know The Bible?

[marks]

there seems to be awareness, or as Einstein said, "spooky action at a distance".

Not sure I'd equate entanglement with awareness.

 

[Truth OT]

I'm pointing out that existence is eternal.

Based on what do you make this claim? The concept of things like "always" and "before" are based on the physics of space and time and spacetime had a beginning. That means that no time existed before the beginning and the very concept of before the beginning is nonsensical.
When we speak of the beginning, we should specify the "of what" that it is we are discussing. In this case, we are talking about the beginning of the physical universe which for the sake of this discussion is the "what was created."

I've watched people walk right into walls, windows, poles, etc. They drive right into the back of another car. They don't seem to be aware of the most obvious things, and yet we wouldn't claim that they have no awareness. Where do we draw the line on awareness?

Would we not conclude that in the instances where they did the things mentioned above they were NOT aware? No one would say they totally lacked awareness, but w could say they were not consciously aware of much of what was transpiring in their immediate environment.
Our conscious awareness of what is actually happening around us is limited, very limited.

More to the point, a sense of self isn't necessarily something one needs to be aware of in the first place. It can simply be an idea, and in most cases it is an idea that the awareness we have is ours. We think it is something that we possess. This is not an awareness at all. It is nothing more than an idea, and a contradictory one as well because we think we are separate individuals.

To the conscious mind a sense of self just is. The mind provides a prism through which our apparent shared reality is viewed. It is highly subjective, biased, and oftentimes ill-informed.

What is the self?
- the perspective through which an individual experiences what they know of as reality

What is reality? (trying not to go down the path of hard solipsism here as doing so makes this discussion meaningless and pointless)
- the apparent confines that the self is resigned to with physical laws that regulate what is possible and how things experienced by the self works. I could be something shared by many various conscious beings or it could be a construction of an individual mind. We as of yet have no real way to determine that anything exists outside of what of mind produces.

 

[shnarkle]

Not sure I'd equate entanglement with awareness.

There is no effective difference. One is aware of the change in the other simultaneously.

 

[marks]

There is no effective difference. One is aware of the change in the other simultaneously.

I guess you use "awareness" differently than I do.

I don't think of a magnet, say, as aware. In that quantum particals show behaviors based on physics that we don't yet understand, I likewise don't think of them as being cognizent, having knowledge, able to make observations, like that.

 

[shnarkle]

Based on what do you make this claim?

Simple logic and the law of non-contradiction. Nothing doesn't exist, and can't exist in the first place. There can be no beginning or end to existence.

The concept of things like "always" and "before" are based on the physics of space and time and spacetime had a beginning.

I wasn't referring to the concept, but the reality. The fact that the physics of spacetime had a beginning doesn't negate or refute that existence is necessarily eternal.

That means that no time existed before the beginning

Very true! So what? I'm not suggesting that time existed before the beginning of time, nor am I suggesting that there is space outside of space.

and the very concept of before the beginning is nonsensical.

Agreed. This doesn't negate or refute the fact that existence is eternal. I'm not referring to a long time. I'm referring to eternity which has nothing to do with time.

When we speak of the beginning, we should specify the "of what" that it is we are discussing.

I did. I referenced "things". Existence or being is a verb i.e. "Be-ing". Existence isn't any thing.

In this case, we are talking about the beginning of the physical universe which for the sake of this discussion is the "what was created."

Agreed.

Would we not conclude that in the instances where they did the things mentioned above they were NOT aware?

They were not consciously aware.

No one would say they totally lacked awareness, but w could say they were not consciously aware of much of what was transpiring in their immediate environment.
Our conscious awareness of what is actually happening around us is limited, very limited.

Sure, and yet this doesn't mean we're not aware. It just means we have become preoccupied or distracted.

To the conscious mind a sense of self just is.

Not necessarily. To the conscious mind, a sense of self is nothing more than an idea.

The mind provides a prism through which our apparent shared reality is viewed. It is highly subjective, biased, and oftentimes ill-informed.

It is not necessarily a shared reality at all. In fact, most people simply share an interface with reality, and one that isn't even accurate to begin with. It just functions which is good enough for most people.

What is the self?
- the perspective through which an individual experiences what they know of as reality

The self is one's identity which is nothing more than an abstract construction of the mind. Perspective is more to do with one's thoughts or awareness. What one knows of reality is through the faculty of the intellect, and everyone doesn't filter reality through their intellect. Most do, but not everyone.

What is reality? (trying not to go down the path of hard solipsism here as doing so makes this discussion meaningless and pointless)
- the apparent confines

The confines of reality suggest that there is something outside of reality. There isn't.

that the self is resigned to with physical laws that regulate what is possible and how things experienced by the self works.

Word salad. I don't see much relevance either.

We as of yet have no real way to determine that anything exists outside of what of mind produces.

More importantly, the self that is produced by the mind isn't real. It's just an arbitrary idea. You have no way to establish identity. Your own identity is nothing but an arbitrary concept. Who you think you are quite simply isn't who you are, and you really have no way to prove otherwise.

 

[shnarkle]

I guess you use "awareness" differently than I do.

I don't think of a magnet, say, as aware. In that quantum particals show behaviors based on physics that we don't yet understand, I likewise don't think of them as being cognizent, having knowledge, able to make observations, like that.

You're conflating the intellectual faculty with awareness. Pure consciousness is not conscious OF anything, and by definition, can't be. There are plenty of people, e.g. atheletes, musicians, martial arts experts, etc. who will point out what happens when one enters into "the way", or "the zone", etc. They completely lose themselves in what they are doing. They become the ball they are throwing. They become the club they are swinging. They become the board they are breaking. They become One with reality. This can only happen when one denies the self itself. It is the central message of the gospel which is self sacrifice.

It isn't real. It is a contradictory and persistent delusion.
Edit: I should have said: "The self isn't real."

 

[marks]

You're conflating the intellectual faculty with awareness. Pure consciousness is not conscious OF anything, and by definition, can't be. There are plenty of people, e.g. atheletes, musicians, martial arts experts, etc. who will point out what happens when one enters into "the way", or "the zone", etc. They completely lose themselves in what they are doing. They become the ball they are throwing. They become the club they are swinging. They become the board they are breaking. They become One with reality. This can only happen when one denies the self itself. It is the central message of the gospel which is self sacrifice.

It isn't real. It is a contradictory and persistent delusion.

You're parsing this pretty finely. I don't agree. Where are you aware if not in the intellect?

Consciousness is not conscious of anything? That is self-contradictory. Unconscious consciousness?

This "zone", it is itself an intellectual construct. It's just a way to describe a certain electro-chemical state. They don't actually become the ball.

Self sacrifice is not the dissolution of self.

Much love!

 

[Philip James]

Hi Philip, thanks for chiming in!

Though I agree that the called out assembly of the Anointed One came about before the New Testament was written, I'd remind you that the people of that day had the written Old Testament in the form of the Septuagint which was a revelation of God,

Indeed. And the gift the Holy Spirit, opened their eyes to see the whole divine plan for the redemption of man written there.

many are said to have lived with the living Christ, and in the generation within the 1st century, miraculous signs and wonders were done to confirm that messengers were from God. That time frame was the exception, not the rule.

Miracles and wonders still occur. Truly, I have a son who as an infant was not expected to live. He will be 16 soon...

His miraculous healing by God was brought about with the help of the prayers of Saint Andre Saint Brother André - L'Oratoire Saint-Joseph du Mont-Royal

One doesn't have to be literate to have scriptural knowledge. It can be shared and taught, but it must be imparted somehow else a believing person will create their subjective personal version of god in their own mind that may conflict with what the scriptures say.

Indeed. This is why Jesus gave His Church the authority and mission to proclaim and uphold the Truth.
He gave her also the promise of divine guidance and protection. And she has carried that objective Truth, to the whole world, inviting everyone to come and be intimately united with Him.

The creator of the universe humbled Himself and became man. He died for you, that you might live eternally with Him!
Even now, He calls you to the feast.. Come to Mass and see!

Peace be with you!

 

[shnarkle]

You're parsing this pretty finely. I don't agree. Where are you aware if not in the intellect?

Awareness is much broader than the intellectual faculty. Ontology encompasses a wider field than epistemology. There is much that cannot be known, yet still exists. There is what is rational and what is irrational, but there is also the non-rational. An infant has virtually no intellectual faculty whatsoever, yet it instinctively nurses without having to learn. Again, plenty of people refer to instinct over the intellect. The intellect is bypassed altogether.

Consciousness is not conscious of anything?

Yep. Pure consciousness is not conscious of anything.

That is self-contradictory.

No, it isn't. When one is conscious of something, the object of their consciousness is not any part of their consciousness. It is the object itself. Pure consciousness is not conscious of any thing. Pure consciousness has no object to be conscious of. This is not to say that it is unconscious, or unconsciousness; just that there is no object of the consciousness. I almost said, "there is no object of one's consciousness", but even that is false because there is no conscious awareness of oneself either.

Unconscious consciousness?

I didn't say anything about being unconscious or unconsciousness.

This "zone", it is itself an intellectual construct.

Only when we talk about it. Those who are in it, are not engaging their intellect at all.

It's just a way to describe a certain electro-chemical state.

Yes, if we're going to talk about it, we have to employ our intellect to do so.

They don't actually become the ball.

They merge, and become one with reality. Some simply remain in that state for the rest of their lives.

Self sacrifice is not the dissolution of self.

That is precisely what it is. It is abolishing the idea completely.

 

[bbyrd009]

Indeed. And the gift the Holy Spirit, opened their eyes to see the whole divine plan for the redemption of man written there.



Miracles and wonders still occur. Truly, I have a son who as an infant was not expected to live. He will be 16 soon...

His miraculous healing by God was brought about with the help of the prayers of Saint Andre Saint Brother André - L'Oratoire Saint-Joseph du Mont-Royal



Indeed. This is why Jesus gave His Church the authority and mission to proclaim and uphold the Truth.
He gave her also the promise of divine guidance and protection. And she has carried that objective Truth, to the whole world, inviting everyone to come and be intimately united with Him.

The creator of the universe humbled Himself and became man. He died for you, that you might live eternally with Him!
Even now, He calls you to the feast.. Come to Mass and see!

Peace be with you!

now see, @aspen et al, if you will, exackly what i am talking about here. Here we have a guy--thoughtful guy, not a bad guy at all, for a slave--who has ignored his boundary stone, and comes to (nominal) Christians seeking to espouse "Church" as "institution" despite Scripture, and we all know which Corporation he is here spying for, right, and inviting ppl to Roman black masses for? And suggesting pagan prayers to spurious saints for? And deeming it "Christian" all the while?

see, BoL can be disregarded, as he invalidates himself, and you and amadeus are here seeking, so i would not expect that even your papist perspectives if posted would not come without some respect, even if when confronted with Scripture you might prevaricate, but what are we to do with this one. Tell me.

Iow not here seeking...anything, plays Dodge Boys any time he is confronted with Scripture, and presuming to teach us Christianity? Crying peace all the while?

Now i tell you again pj, i have no problem with you being willfully ignorant, ok, plenty of prots possessed in the same way i guess, maybe even me, dunno, but there is only going to be strife here as long as you presume to continue in this path, and disrespect your position and Christian beliefs here, whether i keep this up or not, ok.

You are to me a sign of how bad this forum has gotten, the vultures are now gathered at the carcass imo. So be it then, and best of luck to you and your god Pax et al ok, i hope you understand this is not even really about you

 

[bbyrd009]

you might recog, ppl, that you can't have...this, and @icxn , who is admittedly smarter than i am, let's just see how long we have to wait for some response from him eh; i wouldnt be holding my breath tho. So choose. Today.

 

[bbyrd009]

There is no effective difference. One is aware of the change in the other simultaneously.

no offense but didnt you just argue earlier that there was no awareness at all?

which yikes in another sense i guess i sure gotta agree with that lol, but in the context yall were discussing, im kinda lost as to your perspective there now. It was several hours ago that i read that part, maybe i misunderstood

 

[bbyrd009]

His miraculous healing by God was brought about with the help of the prayers of Saint Andre Saint Brother André - L'Oratoire Saint-Joseph du Mont-Royal

i ask you once again to consider how you might feel if i came to Brandon or wherever and started Quoting Scripture at you, that Thing you obv fear the most, pj. Bc i think you have pretty much a perfect record, right, no Scripture Quoted yet eh. To hell with your celebrity saint, ok

 

[shnarkle]

Curious . . . how would you express this thought?

I assume that you're referring to objective reality when you say "creation". Your nomenclature necessarily requires a Creator. The biblical worldview points out that the Creator doesn't objectively exist. Only creation objectively exists, but creation of an identity separate from the Creator is nothing more than an idea. It is the product of the imagination. It verges on idolatry to attribute a sense of self to the created world.

This is only natural for fallen humanity. We grasp at divinity only in assuming a separate identity or sense of self. Adam was not created with a separate identity. Adam was created, not with an image of himself, but in the image of God. Instead of reflecting God, humanity now reflects, and projects this sense of self out into the world, even all of creation.

In a nutshell, by definition creation is not the Creator. Creation is what is created. More to the point, existence or being is not created. Things come into existence or being, and existence or being is not any thing. Things participate or enter into being. They are sustained (but not governed) by being. The word "exist" is an intransitive verb and governs no object.

Our language reveals the truth of reality. Noam Chomsky pointed this out so well decades ago by pointing out that we're programmed to articulate the truth, and can do so in any language. The problem is that we forget that words are symbols, and cannot be what they symbolize. By definition, they are substitutions.

Therefore, only a direct connection to reality can establish the truth. The intellect can only acknowledge or agree. It can never prove or establish the truth, or reality.

 

[Philip James]

Bc i think you have pretty much a perfect record, right, no Scripture Quoted yet eh. To hell with your celebrity saint, ok

For everyone who does wicked things hates the light and does not come toward the light, so that his works might not be exposed.

But whoever lives the truth comes to the light, so that his works may be clearly seen as done in God.

Have a blessed day beloved.

 

[bbyrd009]

For everyone who does wicked things hates the light and does not come toward the light, so that his works might not be exposed.

But whoever lives the truth comes to the light, so that his works may be clearly seen as done in God.

Have a blessed day beloved.

yes, i have already noticed that the few Scriptures you do quote are used in a passive aggressive way, to condemn others. You are evil on a stick, and you have no respect for our beliefs whatsoever. Get bent, pagan. And remember you were warned, many times, ok