I am excited....

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amadeus

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amen. i'd love to be able to illustrate how a hope of salvation is great, but claiming salvation basically = any lack of hope, but even though this is right there in the Book, it split the Anabaptist church so i guess we would not be able to make much more headway than they did. Funny to watch them--Amish and Mennonites--each black on diff sides of their face iow to us, going at it like Hatfields and McCoys lol. So to speak anyway, they do it differently, but they have some Hegelian dialect too lol, at least one of them does, doesn't take too long to figure out which i guess
So many want do badly to be assured that in the end they will have what? So again many speak strongly against the 'name it and claim it' preachers of what is often called a "properity gospel", but I don't see that as worse than saying 'I've got it and nothing I do now can change that'. Perhaps God will make us rich materially now. Perhaps we will not ever lose what we already have, but the wrong focus is on than better thing out in tomorrow somewhere instead of in and on today. When did today begin and when will it end?

"Take therefore no thought for the morrow: for the morrow shall take thought for the things of itself. Sufficient unto the day is the evil thereof." Matt 6:34

"This is the day which the LORD hath made; we will rejoice and be glad in it." Psalm 118:24
 
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Helen

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It probably would not take too much digging to find that anyone who knew or thought he knew the way either lost his way or did not know it as well as he thought he did. I've lost my way and had to change my direction too many times since I began my walk with God to be very critical of anyone else. The important thing is to not quit because we were in error, but rather to keep on look for His face. It seem to be a dim or dark vision at times but we are not left without hope if we do not give up our Hope.


Amen , excellent word.

We've all been there and to a measure probably still are....we all have blind spots...that is why we need the Lord's voice in our life, and our brother too.
 

amadeus

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i came from this, and i have seen this a few times; it is always a curse imo. or i have to believe there are exceptions somewhere, but i have not seen one, it has always manifested as a curse in my experience
I have no pots of gold, but neither am I in debt [discounting my share of the national debt and such as that]. The last time I had a serious problem with money was connected with coming back to God after being backslid for about 10 years. That time after a unbelievable experience [chastisement?] God got me out of debt. I have not revisited that place.

Unfortunately many [most?] people refuse to believe that money cannot buy for them what they really need. Of course many people don't know the difference between need and want.

I remember many years ago in a church we attended there was a brother who along with his wife was always deep in debt, with no hope of finding a way out. All of their income essentially went into making loan payments where they were never gaining on the principal. One Sunday morning the brother came to church all smiles and proceeded to give everyone he met a 10 dollar bill. When asked what he was doing he simply said he was sowing some seed. His plan was to cause or make God to multiply it back to him. His plan did not work. They never sincerely tried to change their financial ways and they continued to live as they always had from payday to payday and from loan to loan.
 

aspen

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… to have discovered a recently written book concerning the development of Protestantism.

Here is just a tiny excerpt from that book:

THE TRIGGER FOR LUTHER’S REFORM: THE “INDULGENCE” CONTROVERSY

The event that is traditionally held to mark the beginning of the European Reformation, and hence the birth of Protestantism, took place at about midday on October 31, 1517, on the eve of All Souls’ Day. Martin Luther, a lecturer in biblical studies at the recently founded University of Wittenberg, nailed a piece of paper to the main north door of the castle church of that city. The paper fluttered in the wind alongside various other academic and civic notices, probably attracting little attention at first.

Luther’s notice was a request to debate a series of theological propositions about the practice of “indulgences.” Such debates were a regular part of the academic life of the day and rarely attracted attention beyond the limited confines of the universities. There is no evidence that his attempt to arrange a routine debate attracted any interest within the University of Wittenberg, or any attention from a wider public. It was only when Luther circulated his demands more widely that controversy began to develop.

So, what was the issue at stake? The immediate cause was the visit of Johann Tetzel to Luther’s hometown of Wittenberg to sell indulgences, partly in order to raise capital for the rebuilding of St. Peter’s Basilica in Rome. Occupying something of a theological gray area, indulgences were popular without being entirely theoretically respectable. If there was a theological foundation to the notion, it lay in the idea that through their exemplary actions, Jesus Christ and the saints of the church had built up a “treasury of merit” on which pious Christians could draw, as and when necessary.

Over a period of time, the church had developed a complex theology of purgatory — an intermediate state in which the souls of believers were purged of their remaining sin in order to enter into the presence of God without stain or defect of any kind. This idea of an “intermediate state” could be traced back to the sixth century, although its elaboration is particularly linked with the later Middle Ages. By the early sixteenth century, a popular theology of purgatory had emerged that emphasized both the extended nature and the horrors of this refinement in purgatory — and at the same time offered a number of fast tracks through the process.12

One such accelerated pathway was based on prayer for the dead by the living. Throughout Europe, a whole system of intercessory foundations was created to offer prayers for souls in purgatory, including trentals (cycles of thirty requiem masses) and obits (a yearly memorial service). Chantries were established in order to ensure regular prayer for those who had died.13 The expenses attending such cults of the dead were considerable, a fact reflected in the rise of religious fraternities dedicated to the provision of the appropriate rites of passage for their members. In times of economic hardship, at least some degree of anticlerical sentiment was thus an inevitability: the clergy could be seen as profiting from the anxiety of the impoverished living concerning their dead kinsfolk.

It was, however, a second fast track through purgatory that aroused Luther’s ire. Although the theological foundations of the practice were highly questionable (it was abolished by Pope Pius V in 1567), the church began to finance military campaigns and the construction of cathedrals through the sale of “indulgences,” which reduced the amount of time spent in the torment of purgatory. Johann Tetzel was a shrewd marketer and knew how to sell his product. He had crafted a catchy slogan, making the merits of his product clear even to the simplest of people:

As soon as the coin in the coffer rings,
The soul from purgatory springs!


The canny spiritual investor could thus ensure that both he and his relatives (assuming, of course, that his budget stretched that far) could miss out on the pains of purgation. Aware of the wide appeal of his product, Tetzel had developed an additional crafty marketing technique. The cost of an indulgence was tailored to individuals’ ability to pay as much as to the spiritual benefits they hoped to secure.

Most people rather liked this idea, seeing it as a clever way of enjoying sin without having to worry too much about its alleged eternal consequences. Any extended experience of purgatory was strictly for those who failed to plan for the future. Yet Luther was appalled by the practice. Forgiveness was meant to be the free gift of God! For Luther, the indulgence controversy was a worrying symptom of a much deeper malaise — a loss of the foundational vision that lay at the heart of the gospel. How could the church claim to be Christian when it seemed, at least to Luther, to have lost sight of the most important of all Christian insights — that God offers salvation as a free gift? The sale of indulgences seemed to deny the essence of the Christian gospel, as Luther now understood it. And if the church denied the gospel, was it really a Christian church at all?

Have you seen the movie about Luther? It came out years ago, but it is really good.
Luther (2003) - IMDb
 

Willie T

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Have you seen the movie about Luther? It came out years ago, but it is really good.
I had no idea how little Luther actually affected the "development" of Protestantism. This book passed him in the dust after only a few chapters. There was so much more to it, that it staggers my imagination.... wars, police actions, revolts, migrations, political deals, political marriages and divorces, executions, et al.
 

aspen

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I had no idea how little Luther actually affected the "development" of Protestantism. This book passed him in the dust after only a few chapters. There was so much more to it, that it staggers my imagination.... wars, police actions, revolts, migrations, political deals, political marriages and divorces, executions, et al.

Yeah he was just a spark. However, he did set the foundation with the solas
 
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brakelite

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I have only read sections, but J A Wylie's huge tome The History of Protestantism reveals a mass of religious and political intrigue written mainly on the blood of the innocent across centuries of turmoil. The story of J Huss alone could be the basis for many Hollywood blockbusters.
 
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Willie T

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I have only read sections, but J A Wylie's huge tome The History of Protestantism reveals a mass of religious and political intrigue written mainly on the blood of the innocent across centuries of turmoil. The story of J Huss alone could be the basis for many Hollywood blockbusters.
Thank you. The book I am now reading also speaks along those same lines. In fact, I just learned that it seems James-1 hated the Geneva Bible, thus in 1604 he ordered his own version produced, the KJV, (finished in 1611) and then in 1616 he finally had the Geneva Bible banned from being printed. So, it never was about making a version common people could read... they already had that in the Geneva Bible since 1560.
 
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brakelite

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Thank you. The book I am now reading also speaks along those same lines. In fact, I just learned that it seems James-1 hated the Geneva Bible, thus in 1604 he ordered his own version produced, the KJV, (finished in 1611) and then in 1616 he finally had the Geneva Bible banned from being printed. So, it never was about making a version common people could read... they already had that in the Geneva Bible since 1560.
I didn't know that. So I did some digging, and it seemed that the annotations in the margin of the Geneva Bible were what offended James in particular. And why wouldn't they, considering they could be construed as being seditious and treasonous, removing the the sovereign as head of the church. Explains why the Queen is still head of the church of England. And why In America you have a church without King or Pope.
 
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BreadOfLife

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When do you post on any thread that you don't call people anti-Catholic if they don't agree with you.....?

It is such a common tactic of yours it has become laughable :D
Actually – that’s another LIE.

I only refer to people as “anti-Catholic” when they resort to LYING about what the Church teaches.
Simply disagreeing doesn’t make anybody an anti-Catholic - desperately lying does.

BIG difference . . .
 

BreadOfLife

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sorry bro but that does not work for CEOs and it def doesn't work for anyone claiming to be God's rep on earth
you are tryna have your cake and eat it too, just like me lol
but tbh i dislike this argument as the RCC has moved on from there, i don't think it describes them now
Soooooo – you CAN’T show me where anybody “got me good” but you can falsely make that claim – is that it?
Typical of your cowardice.

As for Papal infallibility – it has absolutely NOTHING to do with clairvoyance.

Look – if you want to continue being a good little anti-Catholic – at LEAST do your homework.
I’m embarrassed for you . . .
 

BreadOfLife

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I think I DO recall being called "ignorant."
Pointing out that you are “ignorant” about Catholic teaching is an observation.
Referring you an “ignoramus” is name-calling – and that I did NOT do.

I suggest you LEARN the difference . . .
 

BreadOfLife

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Obviously the pope can't be PERFECTLY infallible... geez guys get it together lol
Gosh – yet ANOTHER anti-Catholic who is ignorant about ALL things Catholic.

You are conflating Infallibility with Impeccability.
I suggest you learn the difference . . .
 

quietthinker

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Gosh – yet ANOTHER anti-Catholic who is ignorant about ALL things Catholic.

You are conflating Infallibility with Impeccability.
I suggest you learn the difference . . .
attempting to compare Catholics and Protestants in the general understanding of the words is like comparing the Pharisee's with the Sadducee's or the Democrats with the Republicans.
Is it really assumed that either side have a solution?
 
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Willie T

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I didn't know that. So I did some digging, and it seemed that the annotations in the margin of the Geneva Bible were what offended James in particular. And why wouldn't they, considering they could be construed as being seditious and treasonous, removing the the sovereign as head of the church. Explains why the Queen is still head of the church of England. And why In America you have a church without King or Pope.
You added some facts I probably should have included in my post, but what are you saying? I happen to believe the way the notations in the Geneva Bible put it is correct. God's word is not telling us that Monarchs rule the church.
You seem to be agreeing with King James... that the king or Queen is, essentially, the Protestant Pope.
 
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brakelite

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You added some facts I probably should have included in my post, but what are you saying? I happen to believe the way the notations in the Geneva Bible put it is correct. God's word is not telling us that Monarchs rule the church.
You seem to be agreeing with King James... that the king or Queen is, essentially, the Protestant Pope.
Not at all. Though from as far south in the Pacific one can get, I believe republicanism is the best alternative to a monarchy. Nor do I believe popular democracy is good... The majority rule concept is unjust. The American Constitution is one of the most remarkable documents in history. And Roger Williams is a hero of mine. So no, I am not a fan of either the Pope or monarchy. Not that there is much difference.
 
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BreadOfLife

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attempting to compare Catholics and Protestants in the general understanding the words is like comparing the Pharisee's with the Sadducee's or the Democrats with the Republicans.
Is it really assumed that either side have a solution?
Not if you're speaking about individuals.
However - if you are speaking about faith traditions- then there IS a clear choice that is Biblically and historically sound.
 

BreadOfLife

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The reason we Protestants reject catholicism is not that we aren't well acquainted with catholic doctrine, but because we are so well acquainted with Bible doctrine. We've been reading the Bible for the last 500 years, while you catholics have only as recently as Vatican II (1960s) been told that you should read it after centuries of it being censored --- so you've got a lot of catching up to do, friend.
WRONG.

Granted - SOME Protestants are well-acquainted with Catholic doctrine - but neither YOU nor any other non-Catholic on this forum is. I have exposed YOUR personal ignorance of Catholic doctrine repeatedly on this forum. Your second blurb in RED is clear evidence of this.

Pathetic . . .