I am excited....

[Phoneman777]

Ahhhhhh, the temptation to take glory to oneself is ever lurking. A serpent it is indeed and one that requires constant guarding against.

The townspeople once gave a medal to the most humble man in town...and took it away from him when he was seen wearing it.

 

[Phoneman777]

The hardest thing to do is shed prejudice and take an honest look the biblical evidence for doctrines that give Protestants fits. It seems to me the only thing that Protestants can see is the abuses of the doctrine, never examining the doctrines themselves.

The bulk of Newman’s extraordinary work is devoted to the exposition of a series of analogies, showing conclusively that the Protestant static conception of the Church (both historically and theologically) is incoherent and false. He argues, for example, that notions of suffering, or “vague forms of the doctrine of Purgatory,” were universally accepted, by and large, in the first four centuries of the Church, whereas, the same cannot be said for the doctrine of Original Sin, which is agreed upon by Protestants and Catholics.

Protestants falsely argue that Purgatory is a later corruption, but it was present early on and merely developed. Original Sin, however, was equally if not more so, subject to development. One cannot have it both ways. If Purgatory is unacceptable on grounds of its having undergone development, then Original Sin must be rejected with it. Contrariwise, if Original Sin is accepted notwithstanding its own development, then so must Purgatory be accepted.​

Columns

"An indulgence is obtained through the Church who, by virtue of the power of binding and loosing granted her by Christ Jesus, intervenes in favor of individual Christians and opens for them the treasury of the merits of Christ and the saints to obtain from the Father of mercies the remission of the temporal punishment due for their sins." The Church does this not just to aid Christians, "but also to spur them to works of devotion, penance, and charity" (CCC 1478).

"the power of binding and loosing When someone repents, God removes his guilt (Is. 1:18) and any eternal punishment (Rom. 5:9), but temporal penalties may remain. One passage demonstrating this is 2 Samuel 12, in which Nathan the prophet confronts David over his adultery:

"Then David said to Nathan, ‘I have sinned against the Lord.’ Nathan answered David: ‘The Lord on his part has forgiven your sin; you shall not die. But since you have utterly spurned the Lord by this deed, the child born to you must surely die’" (2 Sam. 12:13-14). God forgave David but David still had to suffer the loss of his son as well as other temporal punishments (2 Sam. 12:7-12). (For other examples, see: Numbers 14:13-23; 20:12; 27:12-14.)

Protestants realize that, while Jesus paid the price for our sins before God, he did not relieve our obligation to repair what we have done. They fully acknowledge that if you steal someone’s car, you have to give it back; it isn’t enough just to repent. God’s forgiveness (and man’s!) does not include letting you keep the stolen car.

This technical definition can be phrased more simply as, "An indulgence is what we receive when the Church lessens the temporal (lasting only for a short time) penalties to which we may be subject even though our sins have been forgiven." To understand this definition, we need to look at the biblical principles behind indulgences.

Principle 1: Sin Results in Guilt and Punishment

When a person sins, he acquires certain liabilities: the liability of guilt and the liability of punishment. Scripture speaks of the former when it pictures guilt as clinging to our souls, making them discolored and unclean before God: "Though your sins are like scarlet, they shall be white as snow; though they are red like crimson, they shall become like wool" (Is. 1:18). This idea of guilt clinging to our souls appears in texts that picture forgiveness as a cleansing or washing and the state of our forgiven souls as clean and white (cf. Ps. 51:4, 9).

We incur not just guilt, but liability for punishment when we sin: "I will punish the world for its evil, and the wicked for their iniquity; I will put an end to the pride of the arrogant and lay low the haughtiness of the ruthless" (Is. 13:11). Judgment pertains even to the smallest sins: "For God will bring every deed into judgment, with every secret thing, whether good or evil" (Eccl. 12:14).

Principle 2: Punishments are Both Temporal and Eternal

The Bible indicates some punishments are eternal, lasting forever, but others are temporal. Eternal punishment is mentioned in Daniel 12:2: "And many of those who sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life and some to shame and everlasting contempt."

We normally focus on the eternal penalties of sin, because they are the most important, but Scripture indicates temporal penalties are real and go back to the first sin humans committed: "To the woman he said, ‘I will greatly multiply your pain in childbearing; in pain you shall bring forth children (Gen. 3:16).

Principle 3: Temporal Penalties May Remain When a Sin is Forgiven

When someone repents, God removes his guilt (Is. 1:18) and any eternal punishment (Rom. 5:9), but temporal penalties may remain. One passage demonstrating this is 2 Samuel 12, in which Nathan the prophet confronts David over his adultery:

"Then David said to Nathan, ‘I have sinned against the Lord.’ Nathan answered David: ‘The Lord on his part has forgiven your sin; you shall not die. But since you have utterly spurned the Lord by this deed, the child born to you must surely die’" (2 Sam. 12:13-14). God forgave David but David still had to suffer the loss of his son as well as other temporal punishments (2 Sam. 12:7-12). (For other examples, see: Numbers 14:13-23; 20:12; 27:12-14.)

Protestants realize that, while Jesus paid the price for our sins before God, he did not relieve our obligation to repair what we have done. They fully acknowledge that if you steal someone’s car, you have to give it back; it isn’t enough just to repent. God’s forgiveness (and man’s!) does not include letting you keep the stolen car.

Protestants also admit the principle of temporal penalties for sin, in practice, when discussing death. Scripture says death entered the world through original sin (Gen. 3:22-24, Rom. 5:12). When we first come to God we are forgiven, and when we sin later we are able to be forgiven, yet that does not free us from the penalty of physical death. Even the forgiven die; a penalty remains after our sins are forgiven. This is a temporal penalty since physical death is temporary and we will be resurrected (Dan. 12:2).

Principle 4: God Blesses Some People As a Reward to Others

In Matthew 9:1-8, Jesus heals a paralytic and forgives his sins after seeing the faith of his friends. Paul also tells us that "as regards election [the Jews] are beloved for the sake of their forefathers" (Rom. 11:28).

When God blesses one person as a reward to someone else, sometimes the specific blessing he gives is a reduction of the temporal penalties to which the first person is subject. For example, God promised Abraham that, if he could find a certain number of righteous men in Sodom, he was willing to defer the city’s temporal destruction for the sake of the righteous (Gen. 18:16-33; cf. 1 Kgs. 11:11-13; Rom. 11:28-29).

Principle 5: God Remits Temporal Punishments through the Church

God uses the Church when he removes temporal penalties. This is the essence of the doctrine of indulgences. Earlier we defined indulgences as "what we receive when the Church lessens the temporal penalties to which we may be subject even though our sins have been forgiven." The members of the Church became aware of this principle through the sacrament of penance. From the beginning, acts of penance were assigned as part of the sacrament because the Church recognized that Christians must deal with temporal penalties, such as God’s discipline and the need to compensate those our sins have injured.

In the early Church, penances were sometimes severe. For serious sins, such as apostasy, murder, and abortion, the penances could stretch over years, but the Church recognized that repentant sinners could shorten their penances by pleasing God through pious or charitable acts that expressed sorrow and a desire to make up for one’s sin.

The Church also recognized the duration of temporal punishments could be lessened through the involvement of other persons who had pleased God. Scripture tells us God gave the authority to forgive sins "to men" (Matt. 9:8) and to Christ’s ministers in particular. Jesus told them, "As the Father has sent me, even so I send you. . . . Receive the Holy Spirit. If you forgive the sins of any, they are forgiven; if you retain the sins of any, they are retained" (John 20:21-23).

If Christ gave his ministers the ability to forgive the eternal penalty of sin, how much more would they be able to remit the temporal penalties of sin! Christ also promised his Church the power to bind and loose on earth, saying, "Truly, I say to you, whatever you bind on earth shall be bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven" (Matt. 18:18). As the context makes clear, binding and loosing cover Church discipline, and Church discipline involves administering and removing temporal penalties (such as barring from and readmitting to the sacraments). Therefore, the power of binding and loosing includes the administration of temporal penalties.

The reason we Protestants reject catholicism is not that we aren't well acquainted with catholic doctrine, but because we are so well acquainted with Bible doctrine. We've been reading the Bible for the last 500 years, while you catholics have only as recently as Vatican II (1960s) been told that you should read it after centuries of it being censored --- so you've got a lot of catching up to do, friend.

 

[quietthinker]

The townspeople once gave a medal to the most humble man in town...and took it away from him when he was seen wearing it.

could you please clarify what you men by this statement Phoneman.

 

[stunnedbygrace]

This is all laid out in 'The Great Controversy' written over a hundred years ago.
It's worth looking at Willie.

I may have read that book a long time ago...I think so. If I am remembering correctly, there was something toward the very end about the thief on the cross that I didn't care for, but most of the book I liked. So then I found another book by the same author (I think) that was a thin volume of almost only bible verses arranged in an order that was very good. Sparse comments but mostly just verses? Did the author wrote something like that?

 

[Willie T]

I snuck a peek at Ellen White's book. I read the preface.
I have to admit that I feel I am going to have a hard time with this one. In typical fashion, White went directly to Eschatology and the touting of herself as the latest prophet sent to enlighten the world.
I know you SDA's believe all that, but to me, it just puts her in the confused bag with many of the TV blowhards of today. (Sorry, but that is just my view.)
I will go back and try again when I finish my present study (which is mainly history-based and informative) but I am not too hopeful at this point.

 

[Willie T]

This small excerpt might demonstrate what I find fascinating about McGrath's book:

The printed book was one of the most significant factors in molding intellectual opinion across sixteenth-century Europe. Books were easily transported, could cross national frontiers undetected, and found their way to private libraries, where they were eagerly, if secretively, devoured. The printed word was integral to the spreading of the ideas of the Reformation across the religious and political boundaries of Europe. Martin Luther never visited England, yet his ideas were brought there through books that were smuggled in through eastern ports such as Ipswich and pored over in nearby Cambridge University. Calvin’s distinct and greatest contribution to the consolidation and diffusion of the Reformed variant of Protestantism was a book that transformed the fortunes of that movement, liberating it from its earlier geographical and cultural imprisonment. The book? Institutes of the Christian Religion. The Institutes immediately became a best-seller and went through numerous, expanded editions in Latin (1539, 1543, 1550, 1553, 1559) and French (1541, 1545, 1551, 1560).

As we noted earlier, the first edition of the Institutes was published at Basel in 1536. Modeled on Luther’s influential catechisms of 1529, its six chapters included commentaries on the Ten Commandments, the Apostles’ Creed, and some disputed matters of theology. Calvin revised the work substantially during his time in Strasbourg. It was the second edition that established the work as one of the most important Protestant works of the era. Completely restructured, the work’s seventeen chapters set out a clear, accessible account of the basics of Christian belief, including the doctrine of God, the Trinity, the relation of the Old and New Testaments, penitence, justification by faith, the nature and relation of providence and predestination, human nature, and the nature of the Christian life. Calvin’s distinctive emphases on the sovereignty of God and the authority of the Bible are evident from even a cursory reading of the work and would remain central as it underwent development in later editions.

What is so striking about this edition of the Institutes is not so much that it is a work of theology, but that it is a work of pedagogy, based on careful reflection on how to communicate and commend ideas. The work offers a clear and immensely readable account of ideas that might otherwise be inaccessible and unintelligible. This concern for effective communication with a lay audience is especially evident in the French translation of the Institutes (1541), which shows Calvin adapting his ideas and language to his intended audience. Greek words and references to Aristotle are left out, and a healthy dose of French proverbs and idioms have been added. This translation is regularly hailed as a model of pedagogical clarity.

Yet it was not simply the many educational and presentational virtues of the book that propelled it to prominence. It addressed head-on the central weakness of Protestantism up to this point: the problem of the multiplicity of interpretations of the Bible. How can one speak of the Bible as having any authority when it is so clearly at the mercy of its interpreters? Calvin presents his Institutes as an authoritative guide to the correct interpretation of scripture. “My object in this work,” he wrote, “is to so prepare and train students of sacred theology for the study of the word of God that they might have an easy access into it, and be able to proceed in it without hindrance.”

 

[Phoneman777]

could you please clarify what you men by this statement Phoneman.

There was a man who was so humble that the townspeople decided to recognize his humility by giving him a medal.

By donning that shiny new medal - an act of prideful display - he disqualified himself as worthy of it.

It's an old church joke.

 

[Phoneman777]

I snuck a peek at Ellen White's book. I read the preface.In typical fashion, White went directly to Eschatology...

Willie T, for God's church in the last days, a focus on eschatology is a waymark, not a warning, when you consider how the Bible characterizes God's church just before Jesus returns:

• they keep the commandments of God (Rev. 12:17)
• they have the testimony of Jesus Christ (Rev. 12:17) which is the Spirit of Prophecy (Rev. 19:10)

...and the touting of herself as the latest prophet sent to enlighten the world.

It's understandable how cynical we are regarding this subject what with all these so called "prophets" running around or living on through their books...but we mustn't forget what God charges us to do: "Despise not prophesyings. Prove all things. Hold fast to that which is good."

 

[bbyrd009]

Calvin presents his Institutes as an authoritative guide to the correct interpretation of scripture

thereby demonstrating his error imo, even if it was an improvement

 

[amadeus]

thereby demonstrating his error imo, even if it was an improvement

Unless of course he was told by God that it was or would an authoritative guide to correct interpretation of the scriptures. If he indicates that to be the case, then we should check with God.

 

[Helen]

The townspeople once gave a medal to the most humble man in town...and took it away from him when he was seen wearing it.

Good one!!! LOL

 

[quietthinker]

I snuck a peek at Ellen White's book. I read the preface.
I have to admit that I feel I am going to have a hard time with this one. In typical fashion, White went directly to Eschatology and the touting of herself as the latest prophet sent to enlighten the world.
I know you SDA's believe all that, but to me, it just puts her in the confused bag with many of the TV blowhards of today. (Sorry, but that is just my view.)
I will go back and try again when I finish my present study (which is mainly history-based and informative) but I am not too hopeful at this point.

Lol, keep at it Willie, judging a book by its preface is premature. Even the preface is someone else's angle.
As far as me being SDA... well, I'll have to leave you with your misconception on that one but thats ok, we all have plenty of those.

When someone has something good to say it matters not to me whether they are black, brown or brindle. What matters to me is not the tag, Catholic, Mormon, Hindu, SDA or their title or what others say about them. These are all smoke screens that buy into our a thousand and one prejudices. God help me to pitch all those.

 

[quietthinker]

There was a man who was so humble that the townspeople decided to recognize his humility by giving him a medal.

By donning that shiny new medal - an act of prideful display - he disqualified himself as worthy of it.

It's an old church joke.

but why say that?

 

[Willie T]

Lol, keep at it Willie, judging a book by its preface is premature. Even the preface is someone else's angle.
As far as me being SDA... well, I'll have to leave you with your misconception on that one but thats ok, we all have plenty of those.

When someone has something good to say it matters not to me whether they are black, brown or brindle. What matters to me is not the tag, Catholic, Mormon, Hindu, SDA or their title or what others say about them. These are all smoke screens that buy into our a thousand and one prejudices. God help me to pitch all those.

My bad. I guess I should have said "the forward and the Introduction" (about 20 pages, or so) the two are about the same to me in a book.

The Intro is where EGW was doing the selling of herself and her ideas. Not exactly my thing. I'll still give it a look since I went to the trouble to procure it, but I can't erase what I already know about her.

 

[Enoch111]

The Intro is where EGW was doing the selling of herself and her ideas.

When all is said and done, EGW was a false prophetess who promoted many unbiblical doctrines.

1. Sabbatarianism
2. Soul Sleep
3. The extinction of sinners (Annihilationism)
4. Rejection of the doctrine of Hell (no eternal conscious torment in Hell)
5. The Investigative Judgment (No FINISHED work of redemption by Christ)
6. Date setting

 

[quietthinker]

When all is said and done, EGW was a false prophetess who promoted many unbiblical doctrines.

1. Sabbatarianism
2. Soul Sleep
3. The extinction of sinners (Annihilationism)
4. Rejection of the doctrine of Hell (no eternal conscious torment in Hell)
5. The Investigative Judgment (No FINISHED work of redemption by Christ)
6. Date setting

1. Is it a crime to keep the Sabbath of scripture?
2. What is your objection to the soul sleeping to be awakened at the resurrection as per scripture?
3. Yes, the wages of sin is death. I find this easy to understand. It beggars belief that you don't.
4. You are right, she has rejected eternal conscious torment in hell as per the scripture. (the wages of sin is death) What don't you understand about that?
5. When Jesus returns to pick up his people in the clouds of Heaven don't you think there has been a prior determination who will join him and who won't? (judgement)
6. You speak in ignorance on this matter.

Your deduction that she was a false prophetess could only be because her views aren't aligned with yours, not because she is contrary to scripture.

 

[bbyrd009]

Unless of course he was told by God that it was or would an authoritative guide to correct interpretation of the scriptures. If he indicates that to be the case, then we should check with God.

imo as soon as he determined he violated Scripture, but then that is maybe what was needed then. Doesn't take too much digging to discover that Luther lost his way too

 

[amadeus]

imo as soon as he determined he violated Scripture, but then that is maybe what was needed then. Doesn't take too much digging to discover that Luther lost his way too

It probably would not take too much digging to find that anyone who knew or thought he knew the way either lost his way or did not know it as well as he thought he did. I've lost my way and had to change my direction too many times since I began my walk with God to be very critical of anyone else. The important thing is to not quit because we were in error, but rather to keep on look for His face. It seem to be a dim or dark vision at times but we are not left without hope if we do not give up our Hope.

 

[bbyrd009]

It probably would not take too much digging to find that anyone who knew or thought he knew the way either lost his way or did not know it as well as he thought he did. I've lost my way and had to change my direction too many times since I began my walk with God to be very critical of anyone else. The important thing is to not quit because we were in error, but rather to keep on look for His face. It seem to be a dim or dark vision at times but we are not left without hope if we do not give up our Hope.

amen. i'd love to be able to illustrate how a hope of salvation is great, but claiming salvation basically = any lack of hope, but even though this is right there in the Book, it split the Anabaptist church so i guess we would not be able to make much more headway than they did. Funny to watch them--Amish and Mennonites--each black on diff sides of their face iow to us, going at it like Hatfields and McCoys lol. So to speak anyway, they do it differently, but they have some Hegelian dialect too lol, at least one of them does, doesn't take too long to figure out which i guess

 

[bbyrd009]

5. When Jesus returns to pick up his people in the clouds of Heaven don't you think there has been a prior determination who will join him and who won't? (judgement)

ha well, there's a determination being made here alright, but it's by us, and it's not the one you are referring to i guess