He is the Word made flesh, but what I do not think is that the Word is another separate person. I believe that the Word is the expression of God's mind.
It wouldn't fit if God's Word was someone else. My word or your word is not someone else either.
I ask the Trinitarians and the Jehovah's Witnesses...
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It wouldn't fit if God's Word was someone else. My word or your word is not someone else either.
I believe the entire Bible. I don't just take part of it like you are doing.
Gen 1 God said, "Let US make man in OUR image according to OUR likeness.
Matt 28 ... baptizing them in the Name (singular) of the Father, Son and Holy Spirit.
Isaiah 48
12 "Listen to Me, O Jacob, And Israel, My called: I am He, I am the First, I am also the Last. 13 Indeed My hand has laid the foundation of the earth, And My right hand has stretched out the heavens; When I call to them, They stand up together.16 "Come near to Me, hear this: I have not spoken in secret from the beginning; From the time that it was, I was there. And now the Lord GOD and His Spirit Have sent Me."
But you're not God. Jesus is.
Col 1 By Him all things were created.
Gen 1 In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth ...
Grailhunter
Well-Known Member
I will say it again and again and again...I am not debating a topic with you, I am saying that you should ask questions when both sides of the debate have scriptures.....now read this real slow. I am not debating a topic with you.
I will say it again and again and again...I am not debating a topic with you, I am saying that you should ask questions when both sides of the debate have scriptures.....now read this real slow. I am not debating a topic with you.
I will say it again and again and again...I am not debating a topic with you, I am saying that you should ask questions when both sides of the debate have scriptures.....now read this real slow. I am not debating a topic with you.
Now if that is not clear enough for you....do not respond.
Now as far as Jehovah Witnesses Calvinists, Voodoo, NAMBLA, Branch Dravidian, Hare Krishna, or Moonies I do not address or debate these belief systems...As far as my involvement, I have assisted rescue interventions and law enforcement in rescuing women and children from Jehovah Witnesses and Calvinist separatist families.
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Davy
Well-Known Member
I simply quoted Scripture. You apparently deny it...
Phil 2:5-11
5 Let this mind be in you, which was also in Christ Jesus:
6 Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God:
7 But made Himself of no reputation, and took upon Him the form of a servant, and was made in the likeness of men:
8 And being found in fashion as a man, He humbled himself, and became obedient unto death, even the death of the cross.
9 Wherefore God also hath highly exalted Him, and given Him a name which is above every name:
10 That at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of things in heaven, and things in earth, and things under the earth;
11 And that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.
KJV
John 5:19-24
19 Then answered Jesus and said unto them, "Verily, verily, I say unto you, The Son can do nothing of Himself, but what He seeth the Father do: for what things soever He doeth, these also doeth the Son likewise.
20 For the Father loveth the Son, and sheweth Him all things that Himself doeth: and He will shew Him greater works than these, that ye may marvel.
21 For as the Father raiseth up the dead, and quickeneth them; even so the Son quickeneth whom He will.
22 For the Father judgeth no man, but hath committed all judgment unto the Son:
23 That all men should honour the Son, even as they honour the Father. He that honoureth not the Son honoureth not the Father Which hath sent Him.
24 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth My word, and believeth on Him That sent Me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.
KJV
I know of no flesh born man that has the power to raise and quickeneth the dead (i.e., the resurrection) except Jesus of Nazareth The Christ only. Do you know of someone else you're not telling us about?
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Davy
Well-Known Member
That is definitely one place where your Bible understanding is lacking, because you have been taught to focus more on the flesh with the time of Adam and Eve and men's pet doctrines than with what happened in the old world when the very first sin was committed by Satan, according to God's Word.
Rev 21:4
4 And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away.
KJV
That obviously reveals that God can exist without the concept of 'death', or even pain. It's because those were not things that were part of His creation of old in the time before Satan rebelled against Him. Death, pain, etc., are things of this present world, after Satan had sinned against Him.
Because as I have shown already, which you ignored, Satan as "that old serpent" tempting Adam and Eve reveals Satan was already in his role as adversary against God, meaning he had already committed the first sin against God sometime before the time of Adam and Eve.
Heb 2:14-15
14 Forasmuch then as the children are partakers of flesh and blood, He also Himself likewise took part of the same; that through death He might destroy him that had the power of death, that is, the devil;
15 And deliver them who through fear of death were all their lifetime subject to bondage.
KJV
That in red reveals that Satan has "the power of death". It should be obvious why Satan has the power of death. It's because of his sin in the old world against God. What was his sin? the very first sin in the beginning? It wasn't Adam and Eve's sin in the Garden, for they didn't even exist yet when Satan first sinned against God.
And what did Christ's Apostles say that sin leads to? The wages of sin is death according to Apostle Paul, and sin is the transgression of the law according to Apostle John. How could death then exist before Satan rebelled transgressing God's law? What you are trying to do is compare the old world when Satan was once perfect in following God to this present world of death and imperfection. No doubt you also probably have a difficult time understanding about the world to come when death and pain are destroyed and are no more, even with an existing earth.
I believe Christ dont you...
You dont get it because you dont ask, and because you dont ask you dont understand and because you dont understand your get angry,
Well gee, I cited the Scriptures. How does that make me angry? Are you saying YOU don't believe them?
Gen 1 God said, "Let US make man in OUR image according to OUR likeness.
Matt 28 ... baptizing them in the Name (singular) of the Father, Son and Holy Spirit.
Isaiah 48
12 "Listen to Me, O Jacob, And Israel, My called: I am He, I am the First, I am also the Last. 13 Indeed My hand has laid the foundation of the earth, And My right hand has stretched out the heavens; When I call to them, They stand up together.16 "Come near to Me, hear this: I have not spoken in secret from the beginning; From the time that it was, I was there. And now the Lord GOD and His Spirit Have sent Me."
Christ does not raise from the dead, as he did not raise himself. Only his faith in God's power and willingness allowed him to come be resurrected. The expression in John 5 is affirming that he has been given power from the Father to do these miraculous things. He emphatically and incessantly states that he is entirely impotent without the Father.
As far as the Carmen Christi goes ( a repeat from another post of mine).
It is an absurd notion to think that, according to trinitarian theology, the triune god who both devised and orchestrated the plan and logistics of Redemption, to ever have such sentiments pass through his mind. How can an omniscient entity establish a protocol for the Atonement, and then when deployed, contemplate a potential option to undermine it, as in remaining equal to God, when a fallible human was required for sacrifice? This is not what the passage is attempting to convey.
But, on the contrary, these are clearly the sentiments of a 1st century man who was aware of his virgin birth, and who had read and understood all the Scriptures pertaining to himself, that is, recognizing his pre-eminence and Messiaship (form of a god to his brethren). But, realizing that both potency wise and ontologically, equality with God was not a feasible or plausible consideration. He therefore remained with the mindset that his God-given ontology and mandate dictated - humility and servant. And thus, Paul is prescribing that we humans adopt this mentality. Which, would be ludicrous, too hypothetical and unfathomable, if Paul was analogizing the kenosis/hybrid logistic, to a disposition that we creatures are to emulate? An utterly ridiculous principle!
I'm just saying that Satan is powerless unless God allows something. Even after man's fall, it was God who commanded the pain in child birth for women, the blood & sweat required to till the ground, the production of thorns & thistles in the earth, and the reduction of man's lifespan, etc.. These were not how God created things in the beginning, but it is only Him that can change it. That's all I'm saying. You are giving way too much credit to Lucifer, or any other creature.
Have you ever read/believed the Bible?
John 5:21 (NKJV)
21 For as the Father raises the dead and gives life to them, even so the Son gives life to whom He will.
John 10:17-18 (NKJV)
17 Therefore My Father loves Me, because I lay down My life that I may take it again.
18 No one takes it from Me, but I lay it down of Myself. I have power to lay it down, and I have power to take it again.
All his power is derived from the Father, he stated this countless times, it is impossible to overlook it. His power is bestowed to him, not inherent.
The first is Deity, the second is Humanity (mankind), and the nature thereof.
The eternal Son of God took upon Himself the form of a servant (Philippians 2:5-11), though before doing so, He was eternally in the "form of God". In so doing, He could not rely upon His eternal knowledge, etc (as we have no such eternal knowledge), but had to, grow up as a man (1 Timothy 2:5) and rely upon His Father's eternal knowledge, and thus could be our perfect example (1 John 2:6). Thus He was a perfect child (though with sinful fallen flesh (Romans 8:3), but born of the Holy Ghost (Luke 1:35), and flesh and spirit (John 3:6) are not the same thing), and became a perfect youth, a perfect young adult and a perfect adult (Mark 4:28). When He was baptized, the fullness of the Holy Ghost came upon Him as the Bible says, and it was not given by measure (John 3:34), and so all that was the Father's was shared by the Father with the Son (John 5:20).
His Deity is eternally perfect. His manhood was perfect at each stage of development (Hebrews 5:8).
Yes, the Son, in His Humanity, had to learn to speak. No Jesus did not 'speak from the cradle' as found in the false Islamic sources, which came from gnostic materials, etc. His first word as a human was probably "abba".
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Who told me what? You seem convinced your contribution is chipping away at something, but I just ask, have you had any success at this approach or are forums just the last resort?
Over my life and through the life of having a family and see them grow, what works and what fails, love, encouragement, faithfulness, truth, honesty are foundational. To see God one has to have a pure heart, seeing the beauty in balanced justice and hard work. A sinful heart sees only jealousy and others getting more than they deserve, envy, selfish ambition. It is not surprising when ones life is full of these conflicts scripture seems so confusing, because there is no empathy or truth. The prostitute in Jericho, admitted the lostness of her city and her position and was prepared to reach out to God and work with Him. This sight into our condition and our needed response summarises everything about ourselves and our Lord.
It is why Jesus is clearly God made flesh, the Messiah, the Holy One, but to those who desire religious significance, any other combination avoids facing repentance of the heart and the desire to walk the path. God bless you
Have you had much success. Christianity is a funny thing, not. they are more concerned with religion, studying, arguing over whos right. perfecting them selves, being good little children, but very few are concerned with things of God, in fact most dont even know they can talk to Him, just a story character in a book, not real. Yet when you tell them of teh reality of Christ they all get upset and run away. Dont expect anything from a forum, far rather talk to people face to face, loved teh JWS coming around having a chance to chat, but they dont have a church around here. Anh not concerened people have to make their own choices.
Davy
Well-Known Member
It can be a slippery slope according to where our hearts are the moment. It is really important to stay clearly on the Lord's side when things are going well. We should not be waiting until catastrophe hits us to reach out to God. Especially when we are young in the Lord we may get away with that for a time... but when we have years of serving God behind us, He will be expecting more back from us. "much is given, much is required" [see Luke 12:48]
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