I ask the Trinitarians and the Jehovah's Witnesses...

[janc]

If the Son of God already existed before his incarnation, then he must have already been perfect, but how do you explain this passage? :
And the Messiah increased in wisdom and in greatness and in favor with God and men.

It seems that he was not perfect but he became perfect with time.

One more question: Did the Son of God learn to speak, or did he already speak as a baby?

 

[historyb]

Christ was absolutely perfect. God the Son came as a babe the first time and as such experienced everything we do which means learning like we do, increasing in wisdom and greatness. You err in assuming that just because it says that means it God the Son was not perfect, which is just something you placed on a single verse without looking at the context

 

[DNB]

Christ was absolutely perfect. God the Son came as a babe the first time and as such experienced everything we do which means learning like we do, increasing in wisdom and greatness. You err in assuming that just because it says that means it God the Son was not perfect, which is just something you placed on a single verse without looking at the context

You're talking nonsense! You said it yourself, '...God the Son came as a babe...'. What in the world is that supposed to mean??? It seems that you don't understand context very well, for even you said 'increasing'. Perfection cannot be improved upon and it lacks nothing, there is no room to increase in any manner. You seriously cannot keep your story straight. When are you trinitarians going to see the diabolical influence behind this inane nonsense, which turns rather competent men into babbling idiots.
Christ increased in wisdom and stature with men, therefore he did not come out of the womb perfect, as absolutely no creature does.

Hebrews 5:7-10
5:7. In the days of His flesh, He offered up both prayers and supplications with loud crying and tears to the One able to save Him from death, and He was heard because of His piety. 8. Although He was a Son, He learned obedience from the things which He suffered. 9. And having been made perfect, He became to all those who obey Him the source of eternal salvation, 10. being designated by God as a high priest according to the order of Melchizedek.

 

[farouk]

If the Son of God already existed before his incarnation, then he must have already been perfect, but how do you explain this passage? :
And the Messiah increased in wisdom and in greatness and in favor with God and men.

It seems that he was not perfect but he became perfect with time.

One more question: Did the Son of God learn to speak, or did he already speak as a baby?

Hebrews 1 is clear about the Son of God's eternal character and pre-existence, from which so much flows in consequence.

 

[Enoch111]

If the Son of God already existed before his incarnation, then he must have already been perfect, but how do you explain this passage? :And the Messiah increased in wisdom and in greatness and in favor with God and men.

Your question ASSUMES that the Son of God did not exist eternally before His incarnation. Which shows that you are really ignorant about the Scriptures. I already told you to read, study, digest, and believe the first chapter of John. AND YOU IGNORED MY ADVICE. Hence these questions and a new thread wasting your time and everyone else's. So listen up and learn:

1. The Son of God is called "the Word of God" in John 1:1.

2. The Word of God is also called "God" in the same verse.

3. By definition God is eternal, therefore the Word of God is also eternal.

4. Therefore the eternal Word of God is also called "the ONLY BEGOTTEN Son of God" in the same chapter. This is a unique Father-Son relationship which has nothing to do with human begetting. Therefore the Son of God is also eternal.

5. Now when we come to the incarnation, the Son of God came to earth as Jesus of Nazareth. He was fully human and fully divine at one and the same time. But in His humanity, He began as a babe, matured as a child, and then became a Man. Thus "And Jesus increased in wisdom and stature, and in favour with God and man." (Luke 2:52)

6. He did NOT become the Son of God at this time, since He was already the eternal Son of God. But He did become the Son of Man, and generally referred to Himself as the Son of Man.

 

[theophilus]

Perfection cannot be improved upon and it lacks nothing, there is no room to increase in any manner.

When Jesus became a human he was a perfect human but he was also finite. He never became more perfect but he grew just as a human does.

 

[janc]

Christ was absolutely perfect. God the Son came as a babe the first time and as such experienced everything we do which means learning like we do, increasing in wisdom and greatness. You err in assuming that just because it says that means it God the Son was not perfect, which is just something you placed on a single verse without looking at the context

But the Bible says that the Spirit of God, which is God himself, became man and not "God the Son", and because of this incarnation he was called the Son of God:
The Holy Spirit will come upon you, therefore also the Holy One who is to be born will be called the Son of God.

So there was no Son of God before the incarnation, but the Spirit of God.

And your reason why he had to grow when he should be perfect does not satisfy me. I hear the same statement from the oneness Believers, but I can't really imagine why he would pretend that he is not perfect when he is perfect.

 

[janc]

but he grew just as a human does.

So he was not perfect?

 

[DNB]

When Jesus became a human he was a perfect human but he was also finite. He never became more perfect but he grew just as a human does.

You're contradicting yourself. Did he grew physically or in maturity?

Hebrews 5:7-10
5:7. In the days of His flesh, He offered up both prayers and supplications with loud crying and tears to the One able to save Him from death, and He was heard because of His piety. 8. Although He was a Son, He learned obedience from the things which He suffered. 9. And having been made perfect, He became to all those who obey Him the source of eternal salvation, 10. being designated by God as a high priest according to the order of Melchizedek.

 

[JunChosen]

]anc, post: 790365, member: 8909"]If the Son of God already existed before his incarnation, then he must have already been perfect, but how do you explain this passage? :
And the Messiah increased in wisdom and in greatness and in favor with God and men.
answers
It seems that he was not perfect but he became perfect with time.

Perhaps you did not go to the right Trinitarians for your Q & A? Now allow me to ask: "have you read Philippians 2:6-8 and how do you perceive these verses to mean?" You see I can play this game also and maybe much, much better at it than you.

Yes in His capacity as having a human nature Jesus humbled Himself of His glory and became subject to obedience unto death, even the death of the cross. This has the same connotation as of the hierarchy found in 1 Corinthians 11:3 which reads:

"But I would have you know that the head of every man is Christ; and the head of the woman is the man; and the head of Christ is God."

Awaiting your comments.

To God Be The Glory

 

[historyb]

But the Bible says that the Spirit of God, which is God himself, became man and not "God the Son", and because of this incarnation he was called the Son of God:
The Holy Spirit will come upon you, therefore also the Holy One who is to be born will be called the Son of God.

So there was no Son of God before the incarnation, but the Spirit of God.

And your reason why he had to grow when he should be perfect does not satisfy me. I hear the same statement from the oneness Believers, but I can't really imagine why he would pretend that he is not perfect when he is perfect.

Your post demonstrate why going by the Bible alone is fatally flawed and does not help but makes one create pagan doctrines by emphasizing silly things. The Son of God always is, was and will be there is no beginning and will be no end in Him. The Everlasting Trinity is in every part of Scripture from Genesis when God the Father said "Let us make man in our image" to Abraham when the Son of God visited him before destroying the cities, to the fiery furnace, and all through history in Scripture.

Christ left His glory to become one of us, He still was God and perfect in every way. Your treading on dangerous pagan ground of none Christianity, don't assume you know better than Church Councils and Apostles who came before us.

 

[DNB]

]anc, post: 790365, member: 8909"]If the Son of God already existed before his incarnation, then he must have already been perfect, but how do you explain this passage? :
And the Messiah increased in wisdom and in greatness and in favor with God and men.
answers
It seems that he was not perfect but he became perfect with time.

Perhaps you did not go to the right Trinitarians for your Q & A? Now allow me to ask: "have you read Philippians 2:6-8 and how do you perceive these verses to mean?" You see I can play this game also and maybe much, much better at it than you.

Yes in His capacity as having a human nature Jesus humbled Himself of His glory and became subject to obedience unto death, even the death of the cross. This has the same connotation as of the hierarchy found in 1 Corinthians 11:3 which reads:

"But I would have you know that the head of every man is Christ; and the head of the woman is the man; and the head of Christ is God."

Awaiting your comments.

To God Be The Glory

@janc
If Christ were God, then equality would be something to be grasped. Plus, if the Father, Son & Holy Spirit orchestrated man's redemption, then the Son, who came to earth, would never in a million years have those thoughts running through his head i.e. undermining his own efforts to save mankind. These are clearly the sentiments of a 1st century man, who read the Scriptures and understood his ordained pre-eminence as the Messiah, to be seated at the right-hand of God. And with this awareness, he did not consider equality with God something to be grasped, but abased himself according to the Father's will, in order to serve man and die for his sins.

How in the world do you see 1 Corinthians 11:13 as delineating an equality between God & Christ, when it explicitly and fundamentally denotes a subordination between the Father and the Son, as woman is to man, and man to the Son?
This is not a game, but apparently both your own comment and your exegesis, shows that you have the completely wrong appreciation of the seriousness of what you are professing.

 

[bbyrd009]

If the Son of God already existed before his incarnation, then he must have already been perfect, but how do you explain this passage? :
And the Messiah increased in wisdom and in greatness and in favor with God and men.

It seems that he was not perfect but he became perfect with time.

One more question: Did the Son of God learn to speak, or did he already speak as a baby?

Who is "the Son of God" iyo? Then why did He refer to Himself as "Son of Man?"

 

[DNB]

Your question ASSUMES that the Son of God did not exist eternally before His incarnation. Which shows that you are really ignorant about the Scriptures. I already told you to read, study, digest, and believe the first chapter of John. AND YOU IGNORED MY ADVICE. Hence these questions and a new thread wasting your time and everyone else's. So listen up and learn:

1. The Son of God is called "the Word of God" in John 1:1.

2. The Word of God is also called "God" in the same verse.

3. By definition God is eternal, therefore the Word of God is also eternal.

4. Therefore the eternal Word of God is also called "the ONLY BEGOTTEN Son of God" in the same chapter. This is a unique Father-Son relationship which has nothing to do with human begetting. Therefore the Son of God is also eternal.

5. Now when we come to the incarnation, the Son of God came to earth as Jesus of Nazareth. He was fully human and fully divine at one and the same time. But in His humanity, He began as a babe, matured as a child, and then became a Man. Thus "And Jesus increased in wisdom and stature, and in favour with God and man." (Luke 2:52)

6. He did NOT become the Son of God at this time, since He was already the eternal Son of God. But He did become the Son of Man, and generally referred to Himself as the Son of Man.

@janc @Heart2Soul
You need to 'listen up and learn' Enoch, for you 'show a great deal of ignorance' by not even understanding the question that was posted. For the sake of his argument, he gave the absurdity of the incarnation the benefit of the doubt, and hypothetically 'assumed' that it was a historical and ontological fact, and then he posed his question based on it. And then, your response was based on assumptions that your understanding of the scriptures that you quoted, were exegetically correct, without attempting to explain how a god-man, or any of the implausibilities of your theory can be logistically sound and feasible. Simply stating that one half of Jesus knew everything, while the other half didn't, doesn't do justice to anyone's comprehension of the Scriptures.

You need to start watching your mouth, and quit telling people to back-off or stop posing sincere questions. This is a public forum.

 

[theophilus]

So he was not perfect?

He was perfect. He was what all of us would have been if Adam had not sinner.

You're contradicting yourself. Did he grew physically or in maturity?

And Jesus increased in wisdom and in stature and in favor with God and man.
Luke 2:52 ESV

Who is "the Son of God" iyo? Then why did He refer to Himself as "Son of Man?"

He probably had this in mind:

I saw in the night visions,
and behold, with the clouds of heaven
there came one like a son of man,
and he came to the Ancient of Days
and was presented before him.
And to him was given dominion
and glory and a kingdom,
that all peoples, nations, and languages
should serve him;
his dominion is an everlasting dominion,
which shall not pass away,
and his kingdom one
that shall not be destroyed.
Daniel 7:13,14 ESV

 

[bbyrd009]

No son of man may die for another's sins...

He was perfect. He was what all of us would have been if Adam had not sinner.

well so you say, but wadr i wouldnt be believing everything i thought ok. Or i mean see how you have kinda written that in stone so to speak? Take responsibility for murdering Christ, maybe, all by yourself

 

[Heart2Soul]

@janc @Heart2Soul
You need to 'listen up and learn' Enoch, for you 'show a great deal of ignorance' by not even understanding the question that was posted. For the sake of his argument, he gave the absurdity of the incarnation the benefit of the doubt, and hypothetically 'assumed' that it was a historical and ontological fact, and then he posed his question based on it. And then, your response was based on assumptions that your understanding of the scriptures that you quoted, were exegetically correct, without attempting to explain how a god-man, or any of the implausibilities of your theory can be logistically sound and feasible. Simply stating that one half of Jesus knew everything, while the other half didn't, doesn't do justice to anyone's comprehension of the Scriptures.

You need to start watching your mouth, and quit telling people to back-off or stop posing sincere questions. This is a public forum.

Is there a reason you tagged me in this? perhaps to draw my attention that you are breaking forum rules?

 

[Base12]

It seems that he was not perfect but he became perfect with time.

Not sure what you mean by the word 'Perfect'.

Let's see what the Word of God has to say...

James 3:2
"For in many things we offend all. If any man offend not in word, the same is a perfect man, and able also to bridle the whole body"

Genesis 6:9
"These are the generations of Noah: Noah was a just man and perfect in his generations, and Noah walked with God"

1 Kings 15:14
"But the high places were not removed: nevertheless Asa’s heart was perfect with the LORD all his days"

Matthew 5:48
"Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect"

Looks to me like anyone is able to be considered 'perfect'.

Then there's this...

Hebrews 9:11
"But Christ being come an high priest of good things to come, by a greater and more perfect tabernacle, not made with hands, that is to say, not of this building"

So according to Scripture, there is...

• Perfect
• More Perfect

It's sort of like...

• Better
• More Better

 

[DNB]

And Jesus increased in wisdom and in stature and in favor with God and man.
Luke 2:52 ESV

I know what it means, but do you?

 

[DNB]

Is there a reason you tagged me in this? perhaps to draw my attention that you are breaking forum rules?

I didn't think that I was, and thus, wanted to be transparent about it. Did I not just use his own approach against him, ...which apparently seems to be acceptable, considering that it's still posted?