I doubt that God incarnated, but believe Jesus is God

[Truther]

1 Cor 15 says Jesus is the "last Adam".

Question, did God become another Adam?

 

[farouk]

John 1.14. 1 Timothy 3.16.

 

[amadeus]

Great post.

I think the subject of the Godhead is wide open.

And I believe that it may be purposely so. That is, God has allowed people to come up with different understandings and then He watches to see how charitably each one deals with those of a different belief or understanding about His nature. This charity as per I Cor 13 and other chapters is more important than exactly what we believe about all of the details.

The important thing according to scripture is that there is only One God. In order to understand the seemingly not understandable things written in places in scriptures, someone came up with a Trinity [my belief]... but hold fast to there being only One God. Some people have some very complete explanations using scripture in favor of a Trinity, but most people who confess the existence of a Trinity cannot really explain it at all. They simply parrot what someone told and simple and effective say: It just is!

I think the RCC hijacked the Godhead teachings of the scriptures from the 1st century.

However it happened, it is one of those things than many Protestants carried away with them unchanged when they separated from Catholicism.

They introduced the idea of God having a human nature centuries later per mass commentary.

Now both trinitarians and oneness argue over this so called "hypostatic union" of God.

Here is my(brief) take on what happened in the last 2000 years....


The disciples taught Jesus has a God.

Jesus said he has a God even after decades of being in heaven. Rev 3:12(4 times in 1 verse).

We see the LAMB and God in the entirety of the book of Revelation.

Paul taught, there is one God, AND one mediator....the man....


The RCC taught God "the Son" became a man(5th century).

They never looked back, but were obsessed with commentary, ignoring the scriptures.

Protestants adopted this RCC commentary.

Oneness broke away from the trinity movement, but never shook the hook of the RCC(God becoming a man).

Oneness simply modified this "Hypostatic Union" doctrine, saying "the Father took on flesh AKA the son".

The 2 groups are still arguing incessantly about their version of the H/U doctrine, with the originator of H/U, smiling as "Mama".

She, the RCC, presides over the H/U doctrine....Teaching H/U is teaching ancient RCC commentary.

We need to break free from the RCC completely, let Jesus have his God back, and figure out how he(Jesus) is our God in the meantime.

We need to stop looking at these verses though the lens of the H/U doctrine, but rather, through the lens of the pre-commentary Apostles.

You don't need to convince me. For many years I studied and prayed about this and I used to discuss/argue the issue often on forums like this. I have not been able to embrace a Trinity belief since I left active Catholicism and was finally drawn into a oneness assembly well over 40 years ago. I stayed with Oneness, Jesus Only groups for 11 years, leaving the last one in 1987. From there I came into a belief in a Duality. While I still lean that way, usually I simply don't stand strongly for anything more than that there is only One God. For me it is not important unless people insist that a belief in a Trinity or Oneness, Jesus Only is essential for salvation. I would resist that.

 

[Triumph1300]

For me it is not important unless people insist that a belief in a Trinity or Oneness, Jesus Only is essential for salvation. I would resist that.

Yes, that's correct, Amadeus!!
I know exactly what you are talking
about.

Experienced the same issues.

 

[Truther]

And I believe that it may be purposely so. That is, God has allowed people to come up with different understandings and then He watches to see how charitably each one deals with those of a different belief or understanding about His nature. This charity as per I Cor 13 and other chapters is more important than exactly what we believe about all of the details.

The important thing according to scripture is that there is only One God. In order to understand the seemingly not understandable things written in places in scriptures, someone came up with a Trinity [my belief]... but hold fast to there being only One God. Some people have some very complete explanations using scripture in favor of a Trinity, but most people who confess the existence of a Trinity cannot really explain it at all. They simply parrot what someone told and simple and effective say: It just is!


However it happened, it is one of those things than many Protestants carried away with them unchanged when they separated from Catholicism.


You don't need to convince me. For many years I studied and prayed about this and I used to discuss/argue the issue often on forums like this. I have not been able to embrace a Trinity belief since I left active Catholicism and was finally drawn into a oneness assembly well over 40 years ago. I stayed with Oneness, Jesus Only groups for 11 years, leaving the last one in 1987. From there I came into a belief in a Duality. While I still lean that way, usually I simply don't stand strongly for anything more than that there is only One God. For me it is not important unless people insist that a belief in a Trinity or Oneness, Jesus Only is essential for salvation. I would resist that.

Very good open minded post.

I see two, not three, not 1.

I see God and the man....5 For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus;

I see something very unique happen to than spirit man(bodily) after he resurrected....45 And so it is written, The first man Adam was made a living soul; the last Adam was made a quickening spirit.

I see another phenomenon happen to that man after his resurrection.....9 For in him dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily.

Which resulted in this phenomenon....
22 And I saw no temple therein: for the Lord God Almighty and the Lamb are the temple of it.

23 And the city had no need of the sun, neither of the moon, to shine in it: for the glory of God did lighten it, and the Lamb is the light thereof.


Simply saying, God lightens the heavens and does everything He does through His son, bodily.

Jesus was made an omnipresent bodily spirit to have his God light up everything though him.

This by default, makes Jesus God.

 

[Enoch111]

The important thing according to scripture is that there is only One God.

Equally important is the truth that Jesus is God. If Jesus is less than God, then He could not possibly be the Savior of the world. Nor the Judge of the world.

Furthermore, one of the conditions for salvation is to believe on the LORD Jesus Christ. Not just *Jesus* and not just *Yeshua* but the LORD Jesus Christ. Since only God is Lord, then unless the one who is believing believes that Jesus is God, he or she cannot be saved.

They are to confess with their mouth that Jesus is LORD (the LORD Jesus), and believe in their heart that God has raised Him from the dead (proof positive that He is God). Only then will they be saved (Romans 10, Acts 16, and many other passages).

On the day of Pentecost, Peter -- speaking by the power of the Holy Spirit -- had to hammer home a very important truth to the Jews assembled in Jerusalem (Acts 2:36): Therefore let all the house of Israel know assuredly, that God hath made that same Jesus, whom ye have crucified, both Lord and Christ.

Why not just *Christ* (Messiah)? Because salvation is of the LORD, and only God can be our Savior and our salvation (as He is called many times in both the Old and New Testament). The name Yeshua (Yah + Shua) or Jesus means GOD IS OUR SALVATION.

Therefore this doctrine is NOT open for debate. Genuine Christians believe that Jesus is God manifest in the flesh (God in a human body). The cults and heretics reject this doctrine, and there is no middle ground. Indeed the apostle John -- the apostle of love -- sternly reminds Christians that if anyone does not have the true doctrine of Christ, they are to be shunned, because they have neither the Father nor the Son.

Whosoever transgresseth, and abideth not in the doctrine of Christ, hath not God. He that abideth in the doctrine of Christ, he hath both the Father and the Son. If there come any unto you, and bring not this doctrine, receive him not into your house, neither bid him God speed: For he that biddeth him God speed is partaker of his evil deeds... (2 John 1:9-11)

 

[Truther]

Equally important is the truth that Jesus is God. If Jesus is less than God, then He could not possibly be the Savior of the world. Nor the Judge of the world.

Furthermore, one of the conditions for salvation is to believe on the LORD Jesus Christ. Not just *Jesus* and not just *Yeshua* but the LORD Jesus Christ. Since only God is Lord, then unless the one who is believing believes that Jesus is God, he or she cannot be saved.

They are to confess with their mouth that Jesus is LORD (the LORD Jesus), and believe in their heart that God has raised Him from the dead (proof positive that He is God). Only then will they be saved (Romans 10, Acts 16, and many other passages).

On the day of Pentecost, Peter -- speaking by the power of the Holy Spirit -- had to hammer home a very important truth to the Jews assembled in Jerusalem (Acts 2:36): Therefore let all the house of Israel know assuredly, that God hath made that same Jesus, whom ye have crucified, both Lord and Christ.

Why not just *Christ* (Messiah)? Because salvation is of the LORD, and only God can be our Savior and our salvation (as He is called many times in both the Old and New Testament). The name Yeshua (Yah + Shua) or Jesus means GOD IS OUR SALVATION.

Therefore this doctrine is NOT open for debate. Genuine Christians believe that Jesus is God manifest in the flesh (God in a human body). The cults and heretics reject this doctrine, and there is no middle ground. Indeed the apostle John -- the apostle of love -- sternly reminds Christians that if anyone does not have the true doctrine of Christ, they are to be shunned, because they have neither the Father nor the Son.

Whosoever transgresseth, and abideth not in the doctrine of Christ, hath not God. He that abideth in the doctrine of Christ, he hath both the Father and the Son. If there come any unto you, and bring not this doctrine, receive him not into your house, neither bid him God speed: For he that biddeth him God speed is partaker of his evil deeds... (2 John 1:9-11)

God in a human body or God HAS a human body?

Please clarify.

 

[Truther]

Rev 3:12 Him that overcometh will I make a pillar in the temple of my God, and he shall go no more out: and I will write upon him the name of my God, and the name of the city of my God, which is new Jerusalem, which cometh down out of heaven from my God: and I will write upon him my new name.


Fascinating.

Jesus has been in heaven for decades here.

Jesus confesses that he has a God, 4 times here.

Does this require further explanation or was he literally saying and meaning this?

If this requires further explanation, please explain this to me per your beliefs.

Anyone is welcome here.

 

[Helen]

Great post.

I think the subject of the Godhead is wide open.

I think the RCC hijacked the Godhead teachings of the scriptures from the 1st century.

They introduced the idea of God having a human nature centuries later per mass commentary.

Now both trinitarians and oneness argue over this so called "hypostatic union" of God.

Here is my(brief) take on what happened in the last 2000 years....


The disciples taught Jesus has a God.

Jesus said he has a God even after decades of being in heaven. Rev 3:12(4 times in 1 verse).

We see the LAMB and God in the entirety of the book of Revelation.

Paul taught, there is one God, AND one mediator....the man....


The RCC taught God "the Son" became a man(5th century).

They never looked back, but were obsessed with commentary, ignoring the scriptures.

Protestants adopted this RCC commentary.

Oneness broke away from the trinity movement, but never shook the hook of the RCC(God becoming a man).

Oneness simply modified this "Hypostatic Union" doctrine, saying "the Father took on flesh AKA the son".

The 2 groups are still arguing incessantly about their version of the H/U doctrine, with the originator of H/U, smiling as "Mama".

She, the RCC, presides over the H/U doctrine....Teaching H/U is teaching ancient RCC commentary.

We need to break free from the RCC completely, let Jesus have his God back, and figure out how he(Jesus) is our God in the meantime.

We need to stop looking at these verses though the lens of the H/U doctrine, but rather, through the lens of the pre-commentary Apostles.

But, that said...do we all agree ( @Enoch111 ) that whatever we have right and whatever we have wrong re the Godhead...it changes nothing about our relationship with the Father or our basic salvation by Grace through Faith...right ?

 

[Helen]

finally drawn into a oneness assembly well over 40 years ago. I stayed with Oneness, Jesus Only groups for 11 years, leaving the last one in 1987. From there I came into a belief in a Duality. While I still lean that way, usually I simply don't stand strongly for anything more than that there is only One God. For me it is not important unless people insist that a belief in a Trinity or Oneness, Jesus Only is essential for salvation. I would resist that.

Amen John... Good post.
I didn't read this one of yours before I posted mine... Agree.

 

[Truther]

But, that said...do we all agree ( @Enoch111 ) that whatever we have right and whatever we have wrong re the Godhead...it changes nothing about our relationship with the Father or our basic salvation by Grace through Faith...right ?

View attachment 8028

I think so.

However, if I thought my wife was not who she claims to be, and called her by a foreign name etc., it would not fare well with me...LOL

Many Christians think God is this or that, but I am not sure what God thinks.

Paul said God winked at folk's ideas of the Godhead on Mars hill, but now wants man to get it right.

I now, pray to Jesus, knowing that I am praying to his God by the fully indwelling God inside his omnipresent spirit body.

My wife is oneness, and when we pray together, sometimes she goes "huh?"....LOL

It is what it is...I cannot help being inquisitive and knowing God honors my prayers and faith THROUGH Jesus.

As a matter of fact, I think the Holy Ghost is both the human spirit of Christ and the Spirit of his God combined in me, per John 14 and Romans 8.

 

[bbyrd009]

Glanced at it...but it is too tiny for me to read.
Would I agree with it? You've seen lots of my posts LOL

you cant magnify a website to read it? Not quite getting you there. You might goto YT and ask it how to magnify in your browser, usually click the three bars to the upper right for a drop down and then you should see an option to magnify, with your current setting, prolly "100%," just jack it up to 150 or whatever.

At Would you agree i recall some mildly challenging data, but imo the Q is "can you refute it?" but i would say test it all and keep what is good, Helen. I said "you are elohim" Even greater things shall you do.
Anyway, here is the opening;
"
θεος
The word θεος (theos) means God, but although that may seem like an open-and-shut case it really isn't. In fact, our word θεος (theos) is fantastically complicated. To start with, it also covers humans (JOHN 10:34) and even what seems to be the devil (2 CORINTHIANS 4:4). There's clearly more to the word θεος(theos) than simply offering a kind of genus for the Creator to be classified as. In the New Testament, this noun occurs 1340 times; SEE FULL CONCORDANCE. Let's have a look at this mysterious word..."

"When people began to call upon the Name
Our word stems from a time when every detail of human existence was permeated with theology (in the broadest sense of the word), easily up to the modern levels of pervasion of the entertainment and health industries combined. And additionally, back then our word theos was understood in the etymological context of what it represented. It was a word that clearly came out of a verbal neighborhood that included everyday verbs and adjectives that all had to do with what theos meant..."

@Enoch111 you might compare with their earlier statements about the religious level of the ancients, and dont ask me to expalin the dichotomy; possibly the diff in "theology" and "religion?"

 

[reformed1689]

I taught that God incarnated in flesh for about 35 years.

I now think that God did not become a man, but that a man(Jesus Christ, a redo of the 1st Adam) was made God after the resurrection and subsequent Col 2:9 effect on his post resurrection(quickening spirit) body.

Your thoughts, arguments and comments much welcome here....

John 1: In the BEGINNING was the word, the word was with God, the word WAS God.

 

[Truther]

John 1: In the BEGINNING was the word, the word was with God, the word WAS God.

Yes, your word is with you and is you too.

 

[reformed1689]

Yes, your word is with you and is you too.

JESUS is the Word. It's a title for Christ. He was not created, he has always been. This is a BASIC of the Christian faith. To hold to anything else is heresy.

 

[Truther]

JESUS is the Word. It's a title for Christ. He was not created, he has always been. This is a BASIC of the Christian faith. To hold to anything else is heresy.

So, the 1st or 3rd persons do not speak?

Verse 14 says he was not made?


3 All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made....

14 And the Word was made flesh, ...

 

[Truther]

Is anyone on the forum able to say their word is not themselves?

Are our words with us or with someone else?

 

[stunnedbygrace]

I taught that God incarnated in flesh for about 35 years.

I now think that God did not become a man, but that a man(Jesus Christ, a redo of the 1st Adam) was made God after the resurrection and subsequent Col 2:9 effect on his post resurrection(quickening spirit) body.

Your thoughts, arguments and comments much welcome here....

But there is too much that wars against that. The opening of Johns gospel says of Jesus that all we see was created through Him and that He was with God in the beginning and even IS God. I think you are going the wrong way.

 

[Truther]

But there is too much that wars against that. The opening of Johns gospel says of Jesus that all we see was created through Him and that He was with God in the beginning and even IS God. I think you are going the wrong way.

Jesus was crucified in the beginning...

8 And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.

Most certainly Jesus has always been there.

God does not predict the future, but witnesses it.

Here is Jesus' crucifixion in action over 1000 years BC....

22 My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me? why art thou so far from helping me, and from the words of my roaring?

2 O my God, I cry in the day time, but thou hearest not; and in the night season, and am not silent.

3 But thou art holy, O thou that inhabitest the praises of Israel.

4 Our fathers trusted in thee: they trusted, and thou didst deliver them.

5 They cried unto thee, and were delivered: they trusted in thee, and were not confounded.

6 But I am a worm, and no man; a reproach of men, and despised of the people.

7 All they that see me laugh me to scorn: they shoot out the lip, they shake the head, saying,

8 He trusted on the Lord that he would deliver him: let him deliver him, seeing he delighted in him.

9 But thou art he that took me out of the womb: thou didst make me hope when I was upon my mother's breasts.

10 I was cast upon thee from the womb: thou art my God from my mother's belly.

11 Be not far from me; for trouble is near; for there is none to help.

12 Many bulls have compassed me: strong bulls of Bashan have beset me round.

13 They gaped upon me with their mouths, as a ravening and a roaring lion.

14 I am poured out like water, and all my bones are out of joint: my heart is like wax; it is melted in the midst of my bowels.

15 My strength is dried up like a potsherd; and my tongue cleaveth to my jaws; and thou hast brought me into the dust of death.

16 For dogs have compassed me: the assembly of the wicked have inclosed me: they pierced my hands and my feet.

17 I may tell all my bones: they look and stare upon me.

18 They part my garments among them, and cast lots upon my vesture.


And here is the 1000 year Millenial reign and the day Jesus was begotten that God saw way back then...

Psalm 2 King James Version (KJV)
2 Why do the heathen rage, and the people imagine a vain thing?

2 The kings of the earth set themselves, and the rulers take counsel together, against the Lord, and against his anointed, saying,

3 Let us break their bands asunder, and cast away their cords from us.

4 He that sitteth in the heavens shall laugh: the Lord shall have them in derision.

5 Then shall he speak unto them in his wrath, and vex them in his sore displeasure.

6 Yet have I set my king upon my holy hill of Zion.

7 I will declare the decree: the Lord hath said unto me, Thou art my Son; this day have I begotten thee.

8 Ask of me, and I shall give thee the heathen for thine inheritance, and the uttermost parts of the earth for thy possession.

9 Thou shalt break them with a rod of iron; thou shalt dash them in pieces like a potter's vessel.



Sure Jesus has been around,..... in the mind of a timeless God, which is real time.

 

[Truther]

Question.

Was Mary the mother of Jesus his biological mother?