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And I believe that it may be purposely so. That is, God has allowed people to come up with different understandings and then He watches to see how charitably each one deals with those of a different belief or understanding about His nature. This charity as per I Cor 13 and other chapters is more important than exactly what we believe about all of the details.Great post.
I think the subject of the Godhead is wide open.
However it happened, it is one of those things than many Protestants carried away with them unchanged when they separated from Catholicism.I think the RCC hijacked the Godhead teachings of the scriptures from the 1st century.
You don't need to convince me. For many years I studied and prayed about this and I used to discuss/argue the issue often on forums like this. I have not been able to embrace a Trinity belief since I left active Catholicism and was finally drawn into a oneness assembly well over 40 years ago. I stayed with Oneness, Jesus Only groups for 11 years, leaving the last one in 1987. From there I came into a belief in a Duality. While I still lean that way, usually I simply don't stand strongly for anything more than that there is only One God. For me it is not important unless people insist that a belief in a Trinity or Oneness, Jesus Only is essential for salvation. I would resist that.They introduced the idea of God having a human nature centuries later per mass commentary.
Now both trinitarians and oneness argue over this so called "hypostatic union" of God.
Here is my(brief) take on what happened in the last 2000 years....
The disciples taught Jesus has a God.
Jesus said he has a God even after decades of being in heaven. Rev 3:12(4 times in 1 verse).
We see the LAMB and God in the entirety of the book of Revelation.
Paul taught, there is one God, AND one mediator....the man....
The RCC taught God "the Son" became a man(5th century).
They never looked back, but were obsessed with commentary, ignoring the scriptures.
Protestants adopted this RCC commentary.
Oneness broke away from the trinity movement, but never shook the hook of the RCC(God becoming a man).
Oneness simply modified this "Hypostatic Union" doctrine, saying "the Father took on flesh AKA the son".
The 2 groups are still arguing incessantly about their version of the H/U doctrine, with the originator of H/U, smiling as "Mama".
She, the RCC, presides over the H/U doctrine....Teaching H/U is teaching ancient RCC commentary.
We need to break free from the RCC completely, let Jesus have his God back, and figure out how he(Jesus) is our God in the meantime.
We need to stop looking at these verses though the lens of the H/U doctrine, but rather, through the lens of the pre-commentary Apostles.
For me it is not important unless people insist that a belief in a Trinity or Oneness, Jesus Only is essential for salvation. I would resist that.
Very good open minded post.And I believe that it may be purposely so. That is, God has allowed people to come up with different understandings and then He watches to see how charitably each one deals with those of a different belief or understanding about His nature. This charity as per I Cor 13 and other chapters is more important than exactly what we believe about all of the details.
The important thing according to scripture is that there is only One God. In order to understand the seemingly not understandable things written in places in scriptures, someone came up with a Trinity [my belief]... but hold fast to there being only One God. Some people have some very complete explanations using scripture in favor of a Trinity, but most people who confess the existence of a Trinity cannot really explain it at all. They simply parrot what someone told and simple and effective say: It just is!
However it happened, it is one of those things than many Protestants carried away with them unchanged when they separated from Catholicism.
You don't need to convince me. For many years I studied and prayed about this and I used to discuss/argue the issue often on forums like this. I have not been able to embrace a Trinity belief since I left active Catholicism and was finally drawn into a oneness assembly well over 40 years ago. I stayed with Oneness, Jesus Only groups for 11 years, leaving the last one in 1987. From there I came into a belief in a Duality. While I still lean that way, usually I simply don't stand strongly for anything more than that there is only One God. For me it is not important unless people insist that a belief in a Trinity or Oneness, Jesus Only is essential for salvation. I would resist that.
Equally important is the truth that Jesus is God. If Jesus is less than God, then He could not possibly be the Savior of the world. Nor the Judge of the world.The important thing according to scripture is that there is only One God.
God in a human body or God HAS a human body?Equally important is the truth that Jesus is God. If Jesus is less than God, then He could not possibly be the Savior of the world. Nor the Judge of the world.
Furthermore, one of the conditions for salvation is to believe on the LORD Jesus Christ. Not just *Jesus* and not just *Yeshua* but the LORD Jesus Christ. Since only God is Lord, then unless the one who is believing believes that Jesus is God, he or she cannot be saved.
They are to confess with their mouth that Jesus is LORD (the LORD Jesus), and believe in their heart that God has raised Him from the dead (proof positive that He is God). Only then will they be saved (Romans 10, Acts 16, and many other passages).
On the day of Pentecost, Peter -- speaking by the power of the Holy Spirit -- had to hammer home a very important truth to the Jews assembled in Jerusalem (Acts 2:36): Therefore let all the house of Israel know assuredly, that God hath made that same Jesus, whom ye have crucified, both Lord and Christ.
Why not just *Christ* (Messiah)? Because salvation is of the LORD, and only God can be our Savior and our salvation (as He is called many times in both the Old and New Testament). The name Yeshua (Yah + Shua) or Jesus means GOD IS OUR SALVATION.
Therefore this doctrine is NOT open for debate. Genuine Christians believe that Jesus is God manifest in the flesh (God in a human body). The cults and heretics reject this doctrine, and there is no middle ground. Indeed the apostle John -- the apostle of love -- sternly reminds Christians that if anyone does not have the true doctrine of Christ, they are to be shunned, because they have neither the Father nor the Son.
Whosoever transgresseth, and abideth not in the doctrine of Christ, hath not God. He that abideth in the doctrine of Christ, he hath both the Father and the Son. If there come any unto you, and bring not this doctrine, receive him not into your house, neither bid him God speed: For he that biddeth him God speed is partaker of his evil deeds... (2 John 1:9-11)
Great post.
I think the subject of the Godhead is wide open.
I think the RCC hijacked the Godhead teachings of the scriptures from the 1st century.
They introduced the idea of God having a human nature centuries later per mass commentary.
Now both trinitarians and oneness argue over this so called "hypostatic union" of God.
Here is my(brief) take on what happened in the last 2000 years....
The disciples taught Jesus has a God.
Jesus said he has a God even after decades of being in heaven. Rev 3:12(4 times in 1 verse).
We see the LAMB and God in the entirety of the book of Revelation.
Paul taught, there is one God, AND one mediator....the man....
The RCC taught God "the Son" became a man(5th century).
They never looked back, but were obsessed with commentary, ignoring the scriptures.
Protestants adopted this RCC commentary.
Oneness broke away from the trinity movement, but never shook the hook of the RCC(God becoming a man).
Oneness simply modified this "Hypostatic Union" doctrine, saying "the Father took on flesh AKA the son".
The 2 groups are still arguing incessantly about their version of the H/U doctrine, with the originator of H/U, smiling as "Mama".
She, the RCC, presides over the H/U doctrine....Teaching H/U is teaching ancient RCC commentary.
We need to break free from the RCC completely, let Jesus have his God back, and figure out how he(Jesus) is our God in the meantime.
We need to stop looking at these verses though the lens of the H/U doctrine, but rather, through the lens of the pre-commentary Apostles.
finally drawn into a oneness assembly well over 40 years ago. I stayed with Oneness, Jesus Only groups for 11 years, leaving the last one in 1987. From there I came into a belief in a Duality. While I still lean that way, usually I simply don't stand strongly for anything more than that there is only One God. For me it is not important unless people insist that a belief in a Trinity or Oneness, Jesus Only is essential for salvation. I would resist that.
I think so.But, that said...do we all agree ( @Enoch111 ) that whatever we have right and whatever we have wrong re the Godhead...it changes nothing about our relationship with the Father or our basic salvation by Grace through Faith...right ?
View attachment 8028
you cant magnify a website to read it? Not quite getting you there. You might goto YT and ask it how to magnify in your browser, usually click the three bars to the upper right for a drop down and then you should see an option to magnify, with your current setting, prolly "100%," just jack it up to 150 or whatever.Glanced at it...but it is too tiny for me to read.
Would I agree with it? You've seen lots of my posts LOL
John 1: In the BEGINNING was the word, the word was with God, the word WAS God.I taught that God incarnated in flesh for about 35 years.
I now think that God did not become a man, but that a man(Jesus Christ, a redo of the 1st Adam) was made God after the resurrection and subsequent Col 2:9 effect on his post resurrection(quickening spirit) body.
Your thoughts, arguments and comments much welcome here....
Yes, your word is with you and is you too.John 1: In the BEGINNING was the word, the word was with God, the word WAS God.
JESUS is the Word. It's a title for Christ. He was not created, he has always been. This is a BASIC of the Christian faith. To hold to anything else is heresy.Yes, your word is with you and is you too.
So, the 1st or 3rd persons do not speak?JESUS is the Word. It's a title for Christ. He was not created, he has always been. This is a BASIC of the Christian faith. To hold to anything else is heresy.
I taught that God incarnated in flesh for about 35 years.
I now think that God did not become a man, but that a man(Jesus Christ, a redo of the 1st Adam) was made God after the resurrection and subsequent Col 2:9 effect on his post resurrection(quickening spirit) body.
Your thoughts, arguments and comments much welcome here....
Jesus was crucified in the beginning...But there is too much that wars against that. The opening of Johns gospel says of Jesus that all we see was created through Him and that He was with God in the beginning and even IS God. I think you are going the wrong way.